kharmin.7683 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > None of the biggest MMO's or games on the market that are online prize solo play like the GW2 community does. Whilist FF14, WoW and WoW classic do better then GW2 and *in both games you have to wait for people to do things.* > > I don't usually have to wait for *people*, but I do have to wait for the *clock timegate* in order to do something interesting or in line with my goals. > I have to beg an interface workaround to group with people instead of waiting for a queue. It's honestly worse than other MMOs in that regard. "LOL Manifesto" all you want, but I'm doing a *lot* of "waiting to have fun" that I shouldn't be. > I would think that the concept is to go do something else while waiting on those pieces of content that you want to do to come around on their timer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genesis.5169 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Rauderi.8706" said: > > @"Genesis.5169" said: > > None of the biggest MMO's or games on the market that are online prize solo play like the GW2 community does. Whilist FF14, WoW and WoW classic do better then GW2 and *in both games you have to wait for people to do things.* > > I don't usually have to wait for *people*, but I do have to wait for the *clock timegate* in order to do something interesting or in line with my goals. > I have to beg an interface workaround to group with people instead of waiting for a queue. It's honestly worse than other MMOs in that regard. "LOL Manifesto" all you want, but I'm doing a *lot* of "waiting to have fun" that I shouldn't be. > I haven't been on ff14 for awhile but when i was the average wait time for a raid was about 25mins for dps instant for tanks and about 10-15mins for healers. A little less for dungeons and trials. There's even a slight wait for Place of the dead around 8 or so mins on average quicker then peak times. But i do feel you a better interface would be better as not many are willing to LFG in map chat or LFG in the LFG system. I honestly think most people are willing to wait on other people to do content, thats why the most popular games are team games, fortnite, overwatch, dota2, ff14 etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornwolf.9721 Posted February 27, 2020 Share Posted February 27, 2020 > @"Rasimir.6239" said: > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > @"Rasimir.6239" said: > > > > @"Faline.8795" said: > > > > - No appreciable end game. > > > This actually is the reason why I play this game over any of the other MMOs out there > Alright so let me actually put a bit of effort to explain the other side of this. > > > > ... > > > > Enter ESO > I started playing this game toward the end of 2012, so a bit over 7 years now. I've played ESO on and off since beta. While I do enjoy ESO occasionally, it is exactly the fact that for most of the unique stuff you have to grind the same stuff day in day out that always turns me off quickly, and if you miss a couple of days for seasonal rewards for example you're out of luck. > > In GW2 most things (nowadays) can be gotten at your own pace, whenever and however you feel like it. While you are missing the carrot, I play this game exactly for the same reason I gave in the post you quoted: I get to choose what to do (and in what timeframe). There's no need to for example repeat specific dailies each and every day since most rewards can be gotten through a variety of ways. If ESO were a bit more like GW2 in this way I'd be all over it, since I actually like a lot about that game, but their more conservative way to rewarding players for grinding very specific content turns me off every time. > > > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > > You are in luck, there are lots of other games. Like the ones you mentioned. Good luck with them.. > > > > If guild wars doesn't adapt you'll be going to those games too, because the severs will go down and it won't exist (Until a private server comes around, if it does.) > Do you have some insider knowledge about the actual motivations of this game's player base, or is this really just the usual doom and gloom because you and your peers don't get out of this game what other games have conditioned you to expect? Its common sense that the game isn't doing as well as it used too, and its not chalked up to the fact that its old. It had a HORRIBLE quarter last quarter, but those of you who choose to ignore this glance over it and say its "A vocal minority" the fact that ESO has GUILD WARS REFUGEE guilds recruiting and the fact that they just hit 10 million active players as they stated during their anniversary event tells me they are on an incline, where as we have no clue on how many active players guild wars boasts. Without expansions games like this do not do well, the sheer amount of hype and interest garnered by the reveal is enough. The fact we are in glorified content patch mode doesn't interest people because there is no Hook, they aren't getting as many new players as they would otherwise. And I know for a fact many old players are leaving, I've seen many whom I used to game with or at least see and run into no longer grace the game. There could be a multitude of factors and I don't claim to know everything nor have insider information im going based on previous experiences. The same thing began happening to warhammer online when its content slowed down, and we began to see just maintenance and balance fixes being the sole focus. While good they didn't offer the player-base much and the content cadence while fast with this saga its not offering enough meat and potatoes to really sate appetites. We are still playing the same type of content, the same way as we always have for the previous years since PoF launched and with no E-specs or new class, new weapons or new anything the gameplay loop is growing stale. We need new and that is the sad truth this game needs to constantly evolve, and they seem (Unless pax proves otherwise) to not believe or care about this fact. You may dismiss me as someone who is just "doom and gloom" when in actual fact I hated PoF and hated all of last season outside of the interactions with joko and I am pleased we are finally focusing on Norn and charr (Wish we had more norn rather than fur-balls but whatever.) I am also hoping for racial reworks for norn to make them more in-line with lore and make them unique. I love eldritch horror and viking/norse/celtic things so this season is so in my genre, I could shill for them and turn a blind eye to the pains and issues I see and pretend it doesn't bother me (In actual fact Im more entertained than I ever was with PoF or season 4 outside of perhaps dragons fall). But I will need a new way to play my class in the future, Id like norn/charr themed E-specs or eldritch themed ones or a mixture of all of them so we can have our dark and or "Edge-lord" specs because that is what I like. Im not saying guild wars should be more like ESO, Im simply saying they could offer similar rewards such as personalities which change how your character moves so you could tailor your character more. We desperately need more customization for our toons considering cosmetics are the end game, I want to be able to tailor my guy more than I can currently and that is one area that ESO utterly stomps any of these other games is the fact that the gameplay loop actively rewards you with more customization both through gear passives, skins, personalities and even mount skins/house decorations. (That and you can choose to be an evil edge lord, where as here you're kind of a goody goody no matter what.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepenmonster.3621 Posted February 28, 2020 Share Posted February 28, 2020 > @"AnonBackStabber.8536" said: > It's failing for me since the Amazon servers came online - packet loss/lag spikes/general lag have been getting worse and worse. Been having the same problem. And the problem hits the second the data hits an Amazon-owned service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Genesis.5169" said: > None of the biggest MMO's or games on the market that are online prize solo play like the GW2 community does. Whilist FF14, WoW and WoW classic do better then GW2 and in both games you have to wait for people to do things. > > Its not the world thats wrong here. > And the community continuously push anet in that same direction that has been killing it since the nerf of HoT and al that remain left are the hopefuls and the players who pushed everyone else away with their false claims. It astounds me then in the current place GW2 is people continue to tow the same line that got us here. Its never been constructive and it isn't its just been a wave of people who complain about not being able to do things they don't even attempt like raids and fotm cms then they boycott it and complain on the forums. > > People need to look at themselves you want to know why GW2 didn't hold on to you look no further then yourself, we have killed under water combat, raids, fotm cms, (strike missions soon), PoF (yes im saying this during pof launch more people where doing HoT maps even post nerfs because HoT was better), old orr, original HoT. Yet no one asks to refine any of the unique mechanics that make gw2 different either but instead would rather make GW2 play more like a traditional MMO then GW2, see the countless post about better usage of combo fields. > > Hell when mounts came out a bunch of people demanded that they shouldnt be used in tyria because of jumping puzzles and this is single player content kitten does it matter to you if some one is having a easier time doing a jump puzzle. That is worth a bump ... NO one signed up to this game wanting a WoW clone (or if they did, they found out FAST it wasn't) and for some reason, people think doing that is the only way to make GW2 great again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 The only thing I agree with is the lack of communication from the devs. The other stuff in my opinion would make the game worse, not better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faline.8795 Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > That is worth a bump ... NO one signed up to this game wanting a WoW clone (or if they did, they found out FAST it wasn't) and for some reason, people think doing that is the only way to make GW2 great again. No one in their right mind would ask for a WoW clone. If they wanted a WoW clone, just go play WoW. On the other hand, just because WoW does something doesn't mean it should be rejected. Some ideas are good. Obviously, what GW2 is doing isn't drawing enough people (and thus enough revenue). Of course, they haven't shut down the servers, and they haven't gone into maintenance mode. But if it was making good money, we'd see a lot more content, more expansions, etc. If we're satisfied with the status quo, then okay. But I suspect that we're not. So it's helpful to look at why people aren't playing. (And thus not spending money.) Those were my reasons. Others have other reasons. But if we were to take the position that we like GW2 as it is, then nothing will change and GW2 will continue down the path it is on. It isn't going to get better, it won't make more money. GW2 needs to change, at least somewhat, or eventually go the way of all flesh. Sooner rather than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faline.8795 Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Melech.4308" said: > Regarding World Chat: > > I'm trying to picture it, but all I can see is an endless stream of text flowing down the chat window at 1000 lines per second and not giving you a chance to even read anything World chat should be optional. Don't want to see it, opt out. But it should be a choice. Choices are good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannelore.8153 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 I think a world-wide chat would be too spammy and full of trolling, but a zone chat (e.g "Shiverpeaks") would likely improve the game alot, especially in the more abandoned areas like Path of Fire and LS3/LS4 maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Faline.8795" said: > > @"Melech.4308" said: > > Regarding World Chat: > > > > I'm trying to picture it, but all I can see is an endless stream of text flowing down the chat window at 1000 lines per second and not giving you a chance to even read anything > > World chat should be optional. Don't want to see it, opt out. But it should be a choice. > > Choices are good. They are. You say there's is no end game for soli play, but I've played thousands of hours solo, and only on 1 main. Not sure what youvate actually after, FOR me my primary goto are is pvp, wvw (and build tweaking) then legendaries, pug dungeons and fractals, going into group finder and joining a meta that takes my fancy, ap hunting, fathering gold and exchanging for gems. Getting rich. build experimentation (never use metas, develop your own, it's more fun and satisfying. Then there's farming in zones for the latest episode rewards, mounts, exploration. Basically as much or more than any other mmorpg out there, so maybe the genre is not for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 > @"Faline.8795" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > That is worth a bump ... NO one signed up to this game wanting a WoW clone (or if they did, they found out FAST it wasn't) and for some reason, people think doing that is the only way to make GW2 great again. > > No one in their right mind would ask for a WoW clone. If they wanted a WoW clone, just go play WoW. > > On the other hand, just because WoW does something doesn't mean it should be rejected. Some ideas are good. > > Obviously, what GW2 is doing isn't drawing enough people (and thus enough revenue). Of course, they haven't shut down the servers, and they haven't gone into maintenance mode. But if it was making good money, we'd see a lot more content, more expansions, etc. > > If we're satisfied with the status quo, then okay. But I suspect that we're not. > > So it's helpful to look at why people aren't playing. (And thus not spending money.) Those were my reasons. Others have other reasons. > > But if we were to take the position that we like GW2 as it is, then nothing will change and GW2 will continue down the path it is on. It isn't going to get better, it won't make more money. > > GW2 needs to change, at least somewhat, or eventually go the way of all flesh. Sooner rather than later. You didn't get my point but to be fair, I didn't make it very clear. GW2 was doing well WITHOUT resorting to the things that make WoW good, so no, GW2 doesn't need to change into WoW so it can be good again. It need to stick to what make it good in the first place; that was NOT being WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoeverxwins.1279 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 I've played since HoT, and run a few alts through the whole game, barring Season 1 of course. I finally went back to LOTRO after 5 years because the tiny bits of content we're getting at a time has me bored. Not that I have a lot of money, but even I have to agree we need an expansion. I'm not gone for good. Just collecting each part of the Saga to play all at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crono.4197 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 So basically you want the game to become the same as any other average MMO on the market. If that would ever happen, I would quit the game, because I'm playing it since it's different from all the other MMOs: you can do what you want, the leve and gear never upgrades so you're not forced to grind for them after every update, the community is not as toxic as in other MMOs (well except Raids). If you want a game where you grind your guts for gear and then after a few months you get an update that makes everything you have useless and you then have to start all over again until the next patch comes, then find another MMO, Guild Wars maybe isn't for you. We already have Raids which made things words and brought elitism into the game, we don't need this game to become another WoW clone (everything you mentioned seems similar to what WoW has/does). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > The only thing I agree with is the lack of communication from the devs. The other stuff in my opinion would make the game worse, not better. Interesting, I probably agree with you on the world chat and matchmaking points but would you be able to elaborate on how more content and more things to do in endgame would make the game worse? I'm not convinced those points deserve such a generalised dismissal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Crono.4197" said: > If you want a game where you grind your guts for gear and then after a few months you get an update that makes everything you have useless and you then have to start all over again until the next patch comes, then find another MMO, Guild Wars maybe isn't for you. Except that's not what the OP is suggesting. You are assuming the OP wants vertical progression for some reason but it seems clear to me he's very much open to horizontal progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > The only thing I agree with is the lack of communication from the devs. The other stuff in my opinion would make the game worse, not better. > Interesting, I probably agree with you on the world chat and matchmaking points but would you be able to elaborate on how more content and more things to do in endgame would make the game worse? I'm not convinced those points deserve such a generalised dismissal. There's plenty to do at end game as long as you're not after traditional end game. I don't think a traditional end game has made this stuff better. End game in this game is dfferent because you don't have to raid to get BIS gear. From reading the OP it seems he has a specific idea what end game is. Obviously more to do period ever would be beneficial in any game, but I like my end game in this game. Skin collecting, title collecting, achievement hunting, doing zone metas, making legendaries. I always have something I'm working on. By the same token, raids don't interest me at all and they could add all the traditional end game in the world and, in my opinion, it wouldn't make this game better. I get the distinct impression the guy is looking for rewards that this game doesn't offer rather than just stuff to do. If skins don't turn you on, there's obviously nothing to do at end game here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > The only thing I agree with is the lack of communication from the devs. The other stuff in my opinion would make the game worse, not better. > > Interesting, I probably agree with you on the world chat and matchmaking points but would you be able to elaborate on how more content and more things to do in endgame would make the game worse? I'm not convinced those points deserve such a generalised dismissal. > > There's plenty to do at end game as long as you're not after traditional end game. I don't think a traditional end game has made this stuff better. End game in this game is dfferent because you don't have to raid to get BIS gear. From my experience when someone says there's nothing or too little to do at endgame, it's not actually about the factual amount of things to do but rather how many of these things you find worthwhile or fun to pursue. I also get bored quickly in this game because of that point. There's stuff I could do but don't enjoy. For example, collecting legendary weapons could be something to do. However, the effort compared to the output is insane and the vast majority of the skins are ugly in my view. Then they added things like Dragonblood weapons which would be a thing to do except they're pink, which I don't care for. Allowing us to pick colours for weapons would change that however. And then I would have something new to do. > From reading the OP it seems he has a specific idea what end game is. Obviously more to do period ever would be beneficial in any game, but I like my end game in this game. Skin collecting, title collecting, achievement hunting, doing zone metas, making legendaries. I always have something I'm working on. By the same token, raids don't interest me at all and they could add all the traditional end game in the world and, in my opinion, it wouldn't make this game better. Perhaps it seems that way to you but he doesn't actually say that. I enjoy collecting skins, I did in GW1 but not so much here. Why not? Well, the examples above about legendary weapons and dragonblood weapons are reasons why not. And a lot of skins come from the gemstore or are extremely rare drops or whatever. I did collect the Auric weapons for example but the rest...meh. So it's not that I want the traditional gear chase, but I do want goals that I feel are fun to do. That means two things: reasonable effort and enjoyable reward. The same problem exists with the latest set of Boreal weapons. I would collect them all but I don't. They purposefully simplified the effects so they became devalued that way as soon as we saw the Drakkar drops but the Drakkar drops are rare and not something you can really work towards and they are yellow instead of blue so again, the colour means I don't want it. If the craftable ones had the same effects but in blue I would get them. > I get the distinct impression the guy is looking for rewards that this game doesn't offer rather than just stuff to do. If skins don't turn you on, there's obviously nothing to do at end game here. Well I think your impression is more your impression than what he's saying. He already conceded that this game isn't about the traditional gear treadmill and that he doesn't know what form it should take but he wants something more. He's not asking for a treadmill. I am like him...I like things to work towards. Skins can be that but the problem with skins is not skins but the way it's done in this game. But even after all that.... You still haven't explained why more stuff to do and in general more content content is bad, because that's actually what you were saying. And that's what I was asking about. If it's just based on your assumption that all he wants is a gear treadmill and nothing else, then I guess I have to say that's not what the op actually said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > The only thing I agree with is the lack of communication from the devs. The other stuff in my opinion would make the game worse, not better. > > > Interesting, I probably agree with you on the world chat and matchmaking points but would you be able to elaborate on how more content and more things to do in endgame would make the game worse? I'm not convinced those points deserve such a generalised dismissal. > > > > There's plenty to do at end game as long as you're not after traditional end game. I don't think a traditional end game has made this stuff better. End game in this game is dfferent because you don't have to raid to get BIS gear. > From my experience when someone says there's nothing or too little to do at endgame, it's not actually about the factual amount of things to do but rather how many of these things you find worthwhile or fun to pursue. I also get bored quickly in this game because of that point. There's stuff I could do but don't enjoy. For example, collecting legendary weapons could be something to do. However, the effort compared to the output is insane and the vast majority of the skins are ugly in my view. Then they added things like Dragonblood weapons which would be a thing to do except they're pink, which I don't care for. Allowing us to pick colours for weapons would change that however. And then I would have something new to do. > > From reading the OP it seems he has a specific idea what end game is. Obviously more to do period ever would be beneficial in any game, but I like my end game in this game. Skin collecting, title collecting, achievement hunting, doing zone metas, making legendaries. I always have something I'm working on. By the same token, raids don't interest me at all and they could add all the traditional end game in the world and, in my opinion, it wouldn't make this game better. > Perhaps it seems that way to you but he doesn't actually say that. I enjoy collecting skins, I did in GW1 but not so much here. Why not? Well, the examples above about legendary weapons and dragonblood weapons are reasons why not. And a lot of skins come from the gemstore or are extremely rare drops or whatever. I did collect the Auric weapons for example but the rest...meh. So it's not that I want the traditional gear chase, but I do want goals that I feel are fun to do. That means two things: reasonable effort and enjoyable reward. The same problem exists with the latest set of Boreal weapons. I would collect them all but I don't. They purposefully simplified the effects so they became devalued that way as soon as we saw the Drakkar drops but the Drakkar drops are rare and not something you can really work towards and they are yellow instead of blue so again, the colour means I don't want it. If the craftable ones had the same effects but in blue I would get them. > > I get the distinct impression the guy is looking for rewards that this game doesn't offer rather than just stuff to do. If skins don't turn you on, there's obviously nothing to do at end game here. > Well I think your impression is more your impression than what he's saying. He already conceded that this game isn't about the traditional gear treadmill and that he doesn't know what form it should take but he wants something more. He's not asking for a treadmill. > > I am like him...I like things to work towards. Skins can be that but the problem with skins is not skins but the way it's done in this game. > > But even after all that.... > > You still haven't explained why more stuff to do and in general more content content is bad, because that's actually what you were saying. And that's what I was asking about. > > If it's just based on your assumption that all he wants is a gear treadmill and nothing else, then I guess I have to say that's not what the op actually said. > > I said more content is always good. But the term end game has come to mean something and when people ask for more end game content, in my experience it's taking the game exactly where I wouldn't want it to go. It will absolutely be bad for me. Whether it's bad for anyone else is their opinion. More content is not the same as the right content. As I said in my last reply of course more is good. But more of the wrong stuff doesn't help me or in my opinion the game. Obviously this is highly subjective. It's an issue with the term end game in and of itself. That's a whole different conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > The only thing I agree with is the lack of communication from the devs. The other stuff in my opinion would make the game worse, not better. > > > > Interesting, I probably agree with you on the world chat and matchmaking points but would you be able to elaborate on how more content and more things to do in endgame would make the game worse? I'm not convinced those points deserve such a generalised dismissal. > > > > > > There's plenty to do at end game as long as you're not after traditional end game. I don't think a traditional end game has made this stuff better. End game in this game is dfferent because you don't have to raid to get BIS gear. > > From my experience when someone says there's nothing or too little to do at endgame, it's not actually about the factual amount of things to do but rather how many of these things you find worthwhile or fun to pursue. I also get bored quickly in this game because of that point. There's stuff I could do but don't enjoy. For example, collecting legendary weapons could be something to do. However, the effort compared to the output is insane and the vast majority of the skins are ugly in my view. Then they added things like Dragonblood weapons which would be a thing to do except they're pink, which I don't care for. Allowing us to pick colours for weapons would change that however. And then I would have something new to do. > > > From reading the OP it seems he has a specific idea what end game is. Obviously more to do period ever would be beneficial in any game, but I like my end game in this game. Skin collecting, title collecting, achievement hunting, doing zone metas, making legendaries. I always have something I'm working on. By the same token, raids don't interest me at all and they could add all the traditional end game in the world and, in my opinion, it wouldn't make this game better. > > Perhaps it seems that way to you but he doesn't actually say that. I enjoy collecting skins, I did in GW1 but not so much here. Why not? Well, the examples above about legendary weapons and dragonblood weapons are reasons why not. And a lot of skins come from the gemstore or are extremely rare drops or whatever. I did collect the Auric weapons for example but the rest...meh. So it's not that I want the traditional gear chase, but I do want goals that I feel are fun to do. That means two things: reasonable effort and enjoyable reward. The same problem exists with the latest set of Boreal weapons. I would collect them all but I don't. They purposefully simplified the effects so they became devalued that way as soon as we saw the Drakkar drops but the Drakkar drops are rare and not something you can really work towards and they are yellow instead of blue so again, the colour means I don't want it. If the craftable ones had the same effects but in blue I would get them. > > > I get the distinct impression the guy is looking for rewards that this game doesn't offer rather than just stuff to do. If skins don't turn you on, there's obviously nothing to do at end game here. > > Well I think your impression is more your impression than what he's saying. He already conceded that this game isn't about the traditional gear treadmill and that he doesn't know what form it should take but he wants something more. He's not asking for a treadmill. > > > > I am like him...I like things to work towards. Skins can be that but the problem with skins is not skins but the way it's done in this game. > > > > But even after all that.... > > > > You still haven't explained why more stuff to do and in general more content content is bad, because that's actually what you were saying. And that's what I was asking about. > > > > If it's just based on your assumption that all he wants is a gear treadmill and nothing else, then I guess I have to say that's not what the op actually said. > > > > > > I said more content is always good. But the term end game has come to mean something and when people ask for more end game content, in my experience it's taking the game exactly where I wouldn't want it to go. It will absolutely be bad for me. Whether it's bad for anyone else is their opinion. More content is not the same as the right content. As I said in my last reply of course more is good. But more of the wrong stuff doesn't help me or in my opinion the game. Obviously this is highly subjective. It's an issue with the term end game in and of itself. That's a whole different conversation. I did indeed miss your "more is better" content. Apologies for reading over that too quickly. As far as endgame, my point is that he doesn't actually know what he wants. That much is clear. He wants something more but not sure what. And the definition of endgame is essential in discussing it, not in the sense of which definition is right, but making sure we use the same definition so we know what we're discussing specifically. And again, it's clear from his comments that he doesn't know what he actually wants. What i find interesting is that I recognise the feeling of boredom, of not having anything to do in the game. And yet, I also know that factually there is a ton of stuff to do in the game. It seems contradictory but that's because feelings are not very precise and often are expressed in a way that doesn't represent the actual issue. What that means for me is that whenever I feel I have nothing to do in this game (which happens frequently) it's because of one or more of the following reasons: 1) Low difficulty, high repetition 2) Rewards not being interesting 3) Effort far outweighing the outcome 4) Lack of transparency 1) This is about the game using high repetition to get to a goal. So for example the new Bjora Marches map Mastery points require you to gain XP between spending mastery points for a mastery. The map has only a handful of events you can do there and they exist multiple times (like the events to clear Svanir camps on the east side). So this gets boring fast but the bar moves slowly so you have to do a lot of these events for each mastery point you want to spend. By the time I got the masteries done so I could get the better rewards, I was so done with the map that I actually never really bothered to take advantage of these new masteries. I clearly feel they just made the process longer for the sake of making it longer. When you see through that it becomes a chore rather than fun. 2) And then the game in general gives lots of trash loot and crafting costs are so high that any reward you get doesn't feel worth the effort. That gives a sense of pointlessness to me in going on. When I get an exotic drop it's not even exciting. And like my example of Dragonblood weapons, the appeal is too narrow of lots of rewards. 3) Legendary weapons, armour, trinkets...some of the most ridiculous costs are associated with this and also highly repetitious. Together with the fact that these weapons are really a matter of tastes and too few skins are available as such, it's really just not worth it. I have a few just to see what it takes but it wasn't a fun process at all. Also, I do craft ascended gear, not because I need it, but because it gives me something to do. Because exotic gear is too easy and cheap to get so there's no effort in that mostly and ascended is a LOT more work for so little gain. But what else am I going to collect? At least ascended gear I can decide what it looks like. 4) The irony is that the game has so much stuff in achievements that it can prevent people from seeing the forest for the trees or perhaps more aptly in this case to see the trees in the forest. Collections help but at the same time it's far from self-explanatory. So any of these factors can lead me to feeling like there's nothing to do, not because there literally is nothing to do but because it's not rewarding, invisible, fully RNG dependent, not worth the effort etc. The stuff I mentioned. If, for example, they added a way to determine/choose/change the colouring of weapon sets like the Dragonsblood weapons, I would have something to do because suddenly the reward is worth pursuing for me. You see, I'm not into pink so much, id rather have a different hue on the weapon and therefore the whole collection is pointless to me. And others might feel the same. I would think that making rewards appealing to more people in a game that is often referred to as fashion wars by giving them colour choices would be a given. We have it for armour after all. And considering the size and lavish effects we can have on weapons they certainly are part of the fashion. In the end just adding more content when a lot of it's ignored by a lot of players seems a shame and I think that improving that can lead to fewer complaints about "not having anything to do" in GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sorudo.9054 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 i agree with the endgame, my current endgame is just waiting for the next story to come along. i have absolutely no motive to chaise achievements not do i see that as fun, meta events are extremely annoying, strikes and raids don't interest me in the slightest, legendary collections are way to expensive and way to much grinding for me to ever consider them and i really don't like team play where i need to play the way ppl require me to play. Anet is also horrible at adding proper RPG elements and that for a MMO _RPG_ , it's like they don't even want interesting role players and only care for dumb "kill that guy" gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faline.8795 Posted March 1, 2020 Author Share Posted March 1, 2020 This is ANet's big problem. I don't know WHAT will make GW2 better. All I know is that what it is isn't working. That's a horrible position for a company to be in. How can they fix it when they don't know what the problem exactly is? I listed some very generic items. Game is too lonely. Game has limited ability for the shy to participate. (Meaning these people don't like the current group-making system.) No interesting end-game. How to address such very generic complaints? idk. How do you progress your character when the game is against progression? Find that answer and maybe we'll find the road to a great GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said: > > > > > > The only thing I agree with is the lack of communication from the devs. The other stuff in my opinion would make the game worse, not better. > > > > > Interesting, I probably agree with you on the world chat and matchmaking points but would you be able to elaborate on how more content and more things to do in endgame would make the game worse? I'm not convinced those points deserve such a generalised dismissal. > > > > > > > > There's plenty to do at end game as long as you're not after traditional end game. I don't think a traditional end game has made this stuff better. End game in this game is dfferent because you don't have to raid to get BIS gear. > > > From my experience when someone says there's nothing or too little to do at endgame, it's not actually about the factual amount of things to do but rather how many of these things you find worthwhile or fun to pursue. I also get bored quickly in this game because of that point. There's stuff I could do but don't enjoy. For example, collecting legendary weapons could be something to do. However, the effort compared to the output is insane and the vast majority of the skins are ugly in my view. Then they added things like Dragonblood weapons which would be a thing to do except they're pink, which I don't care for. Allowing us to pick colours for weapons would change that however. And then I would have something new to do. > > > > From reading the OP it seems he has a specific idea what end game is. Obviously more to do period ever would be beneficial in any game, but I like my end game in this game. Skin collecting, title collecting, achievement hunting, doing zone metas, making legendaries. I always have something I'm working on. By the same token, raids don't interest me at all and they could add all the traditional end game in the world and, in my opinion, it wouldn't make this game better. > > > Perhaps it seems that way to you but he doesn't actually say that. I enjoy collecting skins, I did in GW1 but not so much here. Why not? Well, the examples above about legendary weapons and dragonblood weapons are reasons why not. And a lot of skins come from the gemstore or are extremely rare drops or whatever. I did collect the Auric weapons for example but the rest...meh. So it's not that I want the traditional gear chase, but I do want goals that I feel are fun to do. That means two things: reasonable effort and enjoyable reward. The same problem exists with the latest set of Boreal weapons. I would collect them all but I don't. They purposefully simplified the effects so they became devalued that way as soon as we saw the Drakkar drops but the Drakkar drops are rare and not something you can really work towards and they are yellow instead of blue so again, the colour means I don't want it. If the craftable ones had the same effects but in blue I would get them. > > > > I get the distinct impression the guy is looking for rewards that this game doesn't offer rather than just stuff to do. If skins don't turn you on, there's obviously nothing to do at end game here. > > > Well I think your impression is more your impression than what he's saying. He already conceded that this game isn't about the traditional gear treadmill and that he doesn't know what form it should take but he wants something more. He's not asking for a treadmill. > > > > > > I am like him...I like things to work towards. Skins can be that but the problem with skins is not skins but the way it's done in this game. > > > > > > But even after all that.... > > > > > > You still haven't explained why more stuff to do and in general more content content is bad, because that's actually what you were saying. And that's what I was asking about. > > > > > > If it's just based on your assumption that all he wants is a gear treadmill and nothing else, then I guess I have to say that's not what the op actually said. > > > > > > > > > > I said more content is always good. But the term end game has come to mean something and when people ask for more end game content, in my experience it's taking the game exactly where I wouldn't want it to go. It will absolutely be bad for me. Whether it's bad for anyone else is their opinion. More content is not the same as the right content. As I said in my last reply of course more is good. But more of the wrong stuff doesn't help me or in my opinion the game. Obviously this is highly subjective. It's an issue with the term end game in and of itself. That's a whole different conversation. > I did indeed miss your "more is better" content. Apologies for reading over that too quickly. > > As far as endgame, my point is that he doesn't actually know what he wants. That much is clear. He wants something more but not sure what. And the definition of endgame is essential in discussing it, not in the sense of which definition is right, but making sure we use the same definition so we know what we're discussing specifically. And again, it's clear from his comments that he doesn't know what he actually wants. > > What i find interesting is that I recognise the feeling of boredom, of not having anything to do in the game. And yet, I also know that factually there is a ton of stuff to do in the game. It seems contradictory but that's because feelings are not very precise and often are expressed in a way that doesn't represent the actual issue. What that means for me is that whenever I feel I have nothing to do in this game (which happens frequently) it's because of one or more of the following reasons: > 1) Low difficulty, high repetition > 2) Rewards not being interesting > 3) Effort far outweighing the outcome > 4) Lack of transparency > > 1) This is about the game using high repetition to get to a goal. So for example the new Bjora Marches map Mastery points require you to gain XP between spending mastery points for a mastery. The map has only a handful of events you can do there and they exist multiple times (like the events to clear Svanir camps on the east side). So this gets boring fast but the bar moves slowly so you have to do a lot of these events for each mastery point you want to spend. By the time I got the masteries done so I could get the better rewards, I was so done with the map that I actually never really bothered to take advantage of these new masteries. I clearly feel they just made the process longer for the sake of making it longer. When you see through that it becomes a chore rather than fun. > > 2) And then the game in general gives lots of trash loot and crafting costs are so high that any reward you get doesn't feel worth the effort. That gives a sense of pointlessness to me in going on. When I get an exotic drop it's not even exciting. And like my example of Dragonblood weapons, the appeal is too narrow of lots of rewards. > > 3) Legendary weapons, armour, trinkets...some of the most ridiculous costs are associated with this and also highly repetitious. Together with the fact that these weapons are really a matter of tastes and too few skins are available as such, it's really just not worth it. I have a few just to see what it takes but it wasn't a fun process at all. Also, I do craft ascended gear, not because I need it, but because it gives me something to do. Because exotic gear is too easy and cheap to get so there's no effort in that mostly and ascended is a LOT more work for so little gain. But what else am I going to collect? At least ascended gear I can decide what it looks like. > > 4) The irony is that the game has so much stuff in achievements that it can prevent people from seeing the forest for the trees or perhaps more aptly in this case to see the trees in the forest. Collections help but at the same time it's far from self-explanatory. > > So any of these factors can lead me to feeling like there's nothing to do, not because there literally is nothing to do but because it's not rewarding, invisible, fully RNG dependent, not worth the effort etc. The stuff I mentioned. > > If, for example, they added a way to determine/choose/change the colouring of weapon sets like the Dragonsblood weapons, I would have something to do because suddenly the reward is worth pursuing for me. You see, I'm not into pink so much, id rather have a different hue on the weapon and therefore the whole collection is pointless to me. And others might feel the same. I would think that making rewards appealing to more people in a game that is often referred to as fashion wars by giving them colour choices would be a given. We have it for armour after all. And considering the size and lavish effects we can have on weapons they certainly are part of the fashion. > > In the end just adding more content when a lot of it's ignored by a lot of players seems a shame and I think that improving that can lead to fewer complaints about "not having anything to do" in GW2. > > Then even from what you're saying here, the problem isn't more content, the problem is content you want to do or at least content that rewards you with the rewards you want. You said it yourself. The existing content isn't rewarding you with what you want, which I dare say isn't really a content problem so much as a rewards one. For example adding ten-man content to this game is undoubtedly more content, but I seriously doubt it's made it a better game for most of the playerbase. By the same token, the time used to create that ten man content could have been used to create new five man content which would have possibly given more people something to do. Having more isn't really enough. It's having the right stuff and the right rewards. We can keep throwing more and more content in the game, but if it's not content a large segment of the playerbase will consume then it's those people not consuming it won't see it as content. I don't see raids as content for me, because I'll not be doing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vayne.8563 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > @"Rasimir.6239" said: > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said: > > > > @"Rasimir.6239" said: > > > > > @"Faline.8795" said: > > > > > - No appreciable end game. > > > > This actually is the reason why I play this game over any of the other MMOs out there > Alright so let me actually put a bit of effort to explain the other side of this. > > > > > > ... > > > > > > Enter ESO > > I started playing this game toward the end of 2012, so a bit over 7 years now. I've played ESO on and off since beta. While I do enjoy ESO occasionally, it is exactly the fact that for most of the unique stuff you have to grind the same stuff day in day out that always turns me off quickly, and if you miss a couple of days for seasonal rewards for example you're out of luck. > > > > In GW2 most things (nowadays) can be gotten at your own pace, whenever and however you feel like it. While you are missing the carrot, I play this game exactly for the same reason I gave in the post you quoted: I get to choose what to do (and in what timeframe). There's no need to for example repeat specific dailies each and every day since most rewards can be gotten through a variety of ways. If ESO were a bit more like GW2 in this way I'd be all over it, since I actually like a lot about that game, but their more conservative way to rewarding players for grinding very specific content turns me off every time. > > > > > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > > > You are in luck, there are lots of other games. Like the ones you mentioned. Good luck with them.. > > > > > > If guild wars doesn't adapt you'll be going to those games too, because the severs will go down and it won't exist (Until a private server comes around, if it does.) > > Do you have some insider knowledge about the actual motivations of this game's player base, or is this really just the usual doom and gloom because you and your peers don't get out of this game what other games have conditioned you to expect? > > Its common sense that the game isn't doing as well as it used too, and its not chalked up to the fact that its old. It had a HORRIBLE quarter last quarter, but those of you who choose to ignore this glance over it and say its "A vocal minority" the fact that ESO has GUILD WARS REFUGEE guilds recruiting and the fact that they just hit 10 million active players as they stated during their anniversary event tells me they are on an incline, where as we have no clue on how many active players guild wars boasts. > > Without expansions games like this do not do well, the sheer amount of hype and interest garnered by the reveal is enough. The fact we are in glorified content patch mode doesn't interest people because there is no Hook, they aren't getting as many new players as they would otherwise. And I know for a fact many old players are leaving, I've seen many whom I used to game with or at least see and run into no longer grace the game. There could be a multitude of factors and I don't claim to know everything nor have insider information im going based on previous experiences. The same thing began happening to warhammer online when its content slowed down, and we began to see just maintenance and balance fixes being the sole focus. While good they didn't offer the player-base much and the content cadence while fast with this saga its not offering enough meat and potatoes to really sate appetites. We are still playing the same type of content, the same way as we always have for the previous years since PoF launched and with no E-specs or new class, new weapons or new anything the gameplay loop is growing stale. We need new and that is the sad truth this game needs to constantly evolve, and they seem (Unless pax proves otherwise) to not believe or care about this fact. > > You may dismiss me as someone who is just "doom and gloom" when in actual fact I hated PoF and hated all of last season outside of the interactions with joko and I am pleased we are finally focusing on Norn and charr (Wish we had more norn rather than fur-balls but whatever.) I am also hoping for racial reworks for norn to make them more in-line with lore and make them unique. I love eldritch horror and viking/norse/celtic things so this season is so in my genre, I could shill for them and turn a blind eye to the pains and issues I see and pretend it doesn't bother me (In actual fact Im more entertained than I ever was with PoF or season 4 outside of perhaps dragons fall). But I will need a new way to play my class in the future, Id like norn/charr themed E-specs or eldritch themed ones or a mixture of all of them so we can have our dark and or "Edge-lord" specs because that is what I like. > > Im not saying guild wars should be more like ESO, Im simply saying they could offer similar rewards such as personalities which change how your character moves so you could tailor your character more. We desperately need more customization for our toons considering cosmetics are the end game, I want to be able to tailor my guy more than I can currently and that is one area that ESO utterly stomps any of these other games is the fact that the gameplay loop actively rewards you with more customization both through gear passives, skins, personalities and even mount skins/house decorations. (That and you can choose to be an evil edge lord, where as here you're kind of a goody goody no matter what.) I don't suppose you can ignore that ESO came out with console versions. It greatly increases the pool from which players might be drawn from. It's great to attribute player numbers to specifics. But no one really knows what specifics cause players numbers to go up higher. Certainly having one or more console versions doesn't hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeftheWicked.3076 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 GW2 endgame (least for me) is experimentation with builds and getting gear to make it happen. I find other games having each and every player build the same, play the same, act the same. I won't say it's total freedom here, but enough to try being somewhat yourself playstyle wise. And getting all the gear for it (trinkets, armors, wepons, runes, maybe even infusions) can keep one busy enough:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voltaicbore.8012 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Faline.8795" said: > This is ANet's big problem. I don't know WHAT will make GW2 better. All I know is that what it is isn't working. Eh, it works for me. Aside from _better_ (not necessarily more) communication from the devs, I don't agree with any of your other points. I do, however, understand that your broader point is that while it works for me and not for you, it must also not be working in general due to what you (reasonably) perceive as the rather precarious state of the game from a business standpoint. I agree that layoffs and not doing expansions signal a great measure of failure, but I don't think shifting away from the core uniqueness of the game is the right way out. I work with a lot of businesses of various scale/scope irl, and it's a pretty consistent problem I see - some entrepreneur designs product P to appeal to consumer group C, and the initial numbers before launch suggest that you can make a profit doing so. But after launch, P is not actually doing so well, and very often the knee-jerk response is "let's do what works out well for our competitors." Problem is, what limited success P enjoys usually comes **entirely** from its characteristics that C finds meaningfully distinct from competitor products. Changing P in ways that betrays that distinctiveness almost always alienates a lot of the folks from C who did show up to support P, while the changes still leave P inferior in many regards to its competitors. In other words, you piss off the folks who support you now, and usually fail to suck in enough new support to replace them. The sad reality is that the right answer in many of these situations is to either (A) shrink operations to fit what P is capable of bringing in without betraying its core uniqueness, or (B) abandon P in as financially efficient a manner as possible, and move onto the next thing. The layoffs indicate that (A) has already happened for GW2 to a great extent, and some seem to think that (B) is happening behind closed doors as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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