Gehenna.3625 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 > @"AgentMoore.9453" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > Besides, where's your proof that a lot of people want this? Do you have data to support that? > > I never made such a claim, only that we don't have access to information that would prove a majority or minority among players of GW2 on either side of the issue and therefore posters should not act as though they know such things definitively or use that to push their opinions as fact. You didn't but your response did imply it. The thing is that there needs to be a big enough group of players who are willing to pay for it. So if this is to be done, then there should be evidence from market research or other games that proves that this is a viable strategy. > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > As a general rule I think it's fair to assume that if it's easy and can make them good money, they will do it. > > That seems like a logical stance, but it hasn't always been the path this company takes. Often, they'll do double work or provide something unrequested instead of something easier or more frequently requested by players. Even if everyone on the forum was asking for gendered outfit availability across the board, there's a good chance we'd never get it based on past experience (or that we _would_ get it, but in a cursed form - looking at you, pegasus). > > It isn't that they never listen to feedback or adjust the game by popular demand, but several large-scale features and game changes over the last two years have fallen short and caused noticeable division and disruption in the player base. I don't know what their process is for game design, and I do not claim to. I know only what I observe. Fair comment, though I still insist that if it's doable and makes them money it's certainly likely they will do it. A lot of people ask for things that they believe would be profitable or easy to do but are in fact not. So I think quoting past requests not being honored is not really a valid argument. > > I mean how many MMOs are there where male characters can wear feminine clothing and this is successful for them? > The first one I can think of is probably Second Life, but this also assumes all MMOs design their clothing with the same kind of variation by gender that we've seen in this one, and can therefore have their fashion-to-success ratios charted similarly. Because clothing designs vary so much from game to game, it's hard to tell whether they're profiting off of gendered clothing or whether their clothing design doesn't vary enough for it to matter between genders. Second Life is a tricky one because it's an entirely different set-up and not like MMOs in general. It's more a social thing than story and combat driven as far as I know. That also attracts a completely different type of audience I would think. > I only play this MMO, however, so my knowledge of pixelated fashion is mostly Tyria-oriented; sorry about that. I had dreams of becoming part of the Wider Web Fashion Police, but the academy process is brutal. hehe, kudos for that comment. > At the end of the day, I don't think any sociological elements are the reason for GW2's gender-locked styles, they just coded for males and females because it was easy, called it a day, and then buried it under several metric tons of spaghetti code. Even if they wanted to unlock fashion (or armor weights for that matter), there's a good chance they couldn't based on messy code alone. Making two outfits per gender (which is what you'd be doing if you unlocked them) is cost prohibitive; the more likely solution would be what others have suggested, future outfits and armors that match better between the genders and don't have such massive differences between them. > > People seem very threatened by the idea of a woman wearing pants or a man in a skirt or kilt, but so long as a little bit of everything is present in the game, I see nothing wrong with discussing or requesting more fashion options, which is what the whole gender thing boils down to. The coding for male and female is easy because that's what most players are. So it's efficient from a business point of view because you make two variants and cover 90% percent or more of what the player base wants. I of course don't know the exact numbers but business tends to be about catering to the larger groups because it means your resources are spent more effectively. That means that minorities will often not get a lot of attention because of the simple business equation that it's the same amount of work for a small or niche player group. And it's not just for gender things. It's for everything. There are definitely people who feel threatened by cross-dressing and that's a shame. Personally I have no issue with it even though I'm a middle-aged white male ;) But I just look at the business aspect of it. And that's where a company needs to use their resources effectively. Now any company will have a vision and will do some things just for the sake of doing them and not always just to make extra money...but mostly that's where it's at because your business does need to survive. And it's good that minorities of whatever kind get more recognition in our society but as a minority you are always outside the efficiency scope. Some things are easier, so we have all kinds of skin colours for example and you can give your male character a feminine name or vice versa but creating outfits may have more cost associated with it as I suspect...and then it's not so easy for them to invest into that because it will not make them money. And yeah sadly they also have to take into account that they will lose players if they are too progressive too quickly. Change is hard for people after all. It's not an easy topic but I have a number of things about me that always made me the odd one out. Not comparing it to anyone but a simple example could be that I listen to Heavy Metal music. In my country you basically never hear that on the radio. I could get upset about that and request that they change but they will lose listeners if they do. Also if you have an office job where the radio is on, you're screwed and have to listen to pop music all day even though I can't stand it. I mean many companies will not hire you when you have long hair as a guy. That's just a quick example of how being different than the norm can put you outside of something. And it's really tricky but it's therefore also tricky for ArenaNet or any other company to balance these things and generally money wins. I also play SWTOR off and on and there they have a bit more leeway. I'll give you a couple of examples: http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/swtor-xoxanns-armor-set-star-cluster-nightlife-pack-male.jpg http://www.bandedehoufs.net/BDH%20index_fichiers/SWTOR/last_handmaiden_male_854x480.jpg http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/swtor-visas-marrs-armor-set-trackers-bounty-pack-male.jpg But I've played that game a lot and even though it's out there, there are not that many players I've run into that actually make such choices. However, I never make the assumption that what is done in one game can be done as easily as in other games because of the way the character models are set up and all the other stuff involved in creating outfits. So for me if ArenaNet is willing to do this...great. However, I don't expect it because of the reasons I mentioned. That's the short of it I guess :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dashingsteel.3410 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 Why are people trying to turn this game into drag queen story hour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coso.9173 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 > @"Dashingsteel.3410" said: > Why are people trying to turn this game into drag queen story hour? it's not much that people want to actually crossdress. it's more about many armors and outfits being really relly different between the genders for no reason. to show a few: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winged_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sorcerer%27s_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Apprentice_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diviner_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profane_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phoenix_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Experimental_Envoy_armor_(light) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sneakthief_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Krytan_armor and this is just some i found in 5 mins searching. didn't even get into outfits. there's not reason for such huge differences, many of them doesn't even look like they're the same armor. sneakthief and krytan to name a few. I understand the world in general likes sexy women. but not tne entirety of the playerbase is made of straight males. I'm not saying don't have any differences, but i don't think they should be as big as they are in the examples I showed. as a medium armor wearing human male. I wish I had some of the female versions. specifically kritan and sneakthief. the male counterparts are yet more coats and I want something sleek and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anninke.7469 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 > @"Tman.6349" said: > > @"Jimbru.6014" said: > > Why do female Humans, Norn, and Sylvari run around in the game with more skin showing than would be legal in many real countries? Same answer as the outfits: the majority of the game makers, and also the majority of the people playing those scantily clad eye candy characters, are straight males. My female Asura in her full-covering layered robe just shakes her head seeing those poor shivering "ladies" in Bjora... > > Just some devil's advocate here for a thought experiment: what if you're just hypersexualizing things in the same way you claim others are and there's nothing nefarious about their characters, but is just something they naturally find more aesthetically pleasing? I don't mean to put a halt to you shaking your head at strangers and assuming their perverted intentions though, but it is kinda crazy to think about it from such an opposite perspective for some I bet. > > Could even be a female playing that character or the one female toon on an account otherwise evenly split or even mostly male and the happen to feel the need to play the female character sometimes to not run the risk of being labeled sexist. Lol that would be wild... I'm a female player that sometimes let's her sylvari gals run around dressed very lightly (my crew is about half/half male and female tree-folks). First (the main one): I **can't** do that on my male toons. Sometimes I let my females wear what I'd like for my males. Except for 2 or 3 **heavy** armor skins there's not much to choose from. See the irony? **Heavy** armor are the most skin showing for males. Why is it so easy to have a nearly naked female but when I want a shirtless guy I'd have to unequip the chest armor in most cases? (And as I main a ranger guy, my options are pretty poor.) Second: To enjoy the patterns and glowing. (I can't do that on my male toons...) Third: Well, sometimes I'm just in the mood. They **are** pretty after all :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo Chocolate.5870 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 I wonder which specific outfit(s) the OP is interested in. Most people in this thread, on both sides of the argument, seem to think this is about cross-dressing, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. Several outfits (and armour sets) have gender differences that have little or nothing to do with ideas of what is masculine and feminine. For example, [Hexed](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hexed_Outfit), [Rox's Pathfinder](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rox%27s_Pathfinder_Outfit), [Verdant Executor](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Verdant_Executor_Outfit), [Witch's](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Witch%27s_Outfit) and [shadow Assassin](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Assassin_Outfit). There's no consistency to this of course - some outfits close to identical between genders. And when there are gender differences, it seems random which version female asura and charr get... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted March 4, 2020 Share Posted March 4, 2020 > @"Tommo Chocolate.5870" said: > I wonder which specific outfit(s) the OP is interested in. Most people in this thread, on both sides of the argument, seem to think this is about cross-dressing, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. Well, in my (perhaps simplistic) definition, cross-dressing is when someone wears clothing that are considered meant for the opposite gender. So when someone wants to put a female version on a male character that is cross-dressing in my mind. The reason why someone wants to do that is not part of my definition however. As for your example of armor sets, I have to disagree with you. Things like bare shoulders, showing cleavage (bra-like tops), more flowery themes and exposed hips are definitely more associated with female dress styles. So I'll give you Rox's armor set but the rest are definitely feminine in the female versions. I mean sure, Asura and Charr but most people will be looking at the human, norn and sylvari ones and there the differences are generally very clear between them. You're right though with regards to the OP. There's very little information in the original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Greyhawk.9107 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"coso.9173" said: > > @"Dashingsteel.3410" said: > > Why are people trying to turn this game into drag queen story hour? > > it's not much that people want to actually crossdress. it's more about many armors and outfits being really relly different between the genders for no reason. > to show a few: > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winged_armor > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sorcerer%27s_armor > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Apprentice_armor > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Diviner_armor > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Profane_armor > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phoenix_armor > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Experimental_Envoy_armor_(light) > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sneakthief_armor > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assassin%27s_armor > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Krytan_armor > and this is just some i found in 5 mins searching. didn't even get into outfits. > there's not reason for such huge differences, many of them doesn't even look like they're the same armor. sneakthief and krytan to name a few. I understand the world in general likes sexy women. but not tne entirety of the playerbase is made of straight males. I'm not saying don't have any differences, but i don't think they should be as big as they are in the examples I showed. as a medium armor wearing human male. I wish I had some of the female versions. specifically kritan and sneakthief. the male counterparts are yet more coats and I want something sleek and simple. And here are armor skins that have no significant difference other than the shape of the body underneath: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightmare_Court_armor_(heavy) https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sorrow%27s_Embrace_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ornate_Guild_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Devout_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Apostle_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascalonian_Sentry_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rogue_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Studded_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Commander%27s_armor https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primeval_armor And here's some outfits that are of the same criteria: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcane_Outfit https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Harbinger_of_Mordremoth_Outfit https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Aura_Outfit https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Champion_of_Tyria_Outfit https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Haunted_Armor_Outfit https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riding_Clothes_Outfit https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grenth%27s_Regalia_Outfit https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Executioner%27s_Outfit https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Logan%27s_Pact_Marshal_Outfit https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mad_Scientist_Outfit What Arenanet has done with the armors and outfits it make a mix of gendered and non-gender sets, a mix of perfectly matching sets and very different sets, and I this was the better way for them to go. Same goes for their mix of "skin showing" sets and largely covered sets. It satisfies the largest number of people and allows an ever increasing number of ways to allow each character look as unique as possible, if the player so chooses (there are trends so it doesn't always happen). I do share the frustration that some people are expressing in not being able to find something that appeals to their tastes, as time goes on the styles of the armors Anet releases continue to fail to interest me (though conversely I find many of the outfits more appealing). But having to accept that you can't have things exactly as you'd like all the time, or even most of the time, is just simply an unavoidable part of life. Also, to the commenters that keep bringing up people being "threatened" by women wearing pants and men wearing skirts, I again ask that you stop casting aspersions on people you don't know, as I've already mentioned there are numerous examples of armors and outfits that are of the former and at least a handful of examples of the later and no one has complained either of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeoLegend.5132 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"Chichimec.9364" said: > > @"KeoLegend.5132" said: > > Because male wear male stuff > > and female wear female stuff > > > > Next question > > That may be true where you live but it's not true everywhere. Like @"Hannelore.8153" said, "It's relative to who you are and where you come from." The medium sized town I live in is in the South Central United States , firmly planted in what's known as the Bible Belt. Yet people wear gender nonconforming clothes here and no one blinks an eye. Heck, one of my alts in this game wears a gender nonconforming outfit that I really like. My Asura revenant is a female wearing a Noble outfit. On humans, the male outfit is an Edwardian suit kind of thing while the female outfit is a long ball gown. On my Asura female though, her outfit is the Edwardian suit and it looks much better on her than the ball gown would. So if the gender differentiation is important to you, don't put the Noble outfit on an Asura female. :) GW2 is already SJW enough. A lil bit more will simply kill the game. I respect how people dress where you live and also that is common thing in your culture, but point is: the culture of the majority is/are different. Appealing to such a small minority is the recipe for disaster as it will annoy the majority and well, most of their profits comes from the majority, hence why so many feminists/SJW movies are failing over and over again. What does it has to do with the topic? Simple: If they want to make a skirt for a male gender its okay. A lot of males wear skirts (like scotish). Thats is perfect, fine and i support. What i dont support is a male wearing Kasmeer outfit and it looking THE SAME as the female Kasmeer's outfit counterpart. That is a NO-NO and i dont deserve having my eyes burn out everytime i would see a giant male norn weaing that dress. See my point in here? Nothing against men in skirts or female in suits, as long as its SUITABLE for the gender. GW2 made a good job making outfits different gender-wise and there is not a single reason they should change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeoLegend.5132 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"sevenDEADLY.5281" said: > > @"AgentMoore.9453" said: > > > Show your work. Clearly you have access to game data to be able to proclaim those things as fact, right? > > > > Feel however you want about gender and clothes, but don't try to speak for others and isolate people by telling them they're part of a tiny group just because you disagree with them. The OP is asking why they can't wear both versions of an outfit on both genders; the core answer is game limitations, everything else is just noise intended to divide and hurt people. > > Some quick research shows that roughly 4.5% of the US population and 6% in the EU identify as LGBTQ oriented. Saying he doesn't speak for others also applies to you, and the facts are that such a small percentage of population does qualify technically as niche. Any person that is part of a group always overestimates that group's size because they surround themselves with it. But numbers don't lie. So doubling your workload to cater to 4.5% to 6% of a population is unfortunately unrealistic. 1. That quota doesn't apply to this game. Most LGBTQ ppl doesn't even play games or are huge fans of movies, thats why so many of the SJW movies are flopping 2. Even if 6% of all game population consisted of LGBTQ and even if they would demand what you're demanding that would still be a terrible decision, at least until that 6% becomes a minimum of 51% of the game total population. The worst mistake a company can make is to hear a small (and VERY LOUD) minority that wishes for changes that will annoy the majority and will make (guess what) the 94% of the players leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannelore.8153 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Fwiw, we're alot more common than you think, its just that most of us are still in hiding because of this kitten. You really think that when the world is still saturated with thoughts and feelings like in this thread, anyone would come out? I imagine this thread will inevitably end up deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevenDEADLY.5281 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 There are many armor sets that are the same between sexes, and many that aren't. Instead of demanding the ones that aren't be changed, maybe just use the ones that are instead of demanding the game be changed for your own personal taste while ignoring other's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevenDEADLY.5281 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > Fwiw, we're alot more common than you think, its just that most of us are still in hiding because of this kitten. You really think that when the world is still saturated with thoughts and feelings like in this thread, anyone would come out? > > I imagine this thread will inevitably end up deleted Even if the numbers were doubled it would still be an overwhelming minority. 88% > 12%. If your assumption is that 115 million people in the US are just "hiding it" then that's an unrealistic assumption. I have to once again point out that members of a minority group who constantly surround themselves with that minority group will always overestimate their numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Greyhawk.9107 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 I'm not so sure that gay and trans groups and their related issues are necessarily relevant to this discussion, as they very well may not be the majority of the people that would want either cross-dressing outfits or fully gender neutral outfits, nor would a majority of the players that are gay or trans be interested such changes to outfits in the first place. I'm actually of the mind that a plurality of the folks that'd be for cross-dressing/gender-neutral outfits to _not_ be gay or trans. As such I don't think its conducive to at least an attempt at a semi-reasonable discussion to bring up stats of how much of the IRL population is gay or trans, or how many of them play GW2 or games in general. Its also not a good idea to be making inferences of bigotry against the other commenters, its disingenuous and helps no one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crackmonster.2790 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"Obfuscate.6430" said: > Because people just aren't ready for that yet. They haven't been able to make as much revealing armor for males as they have for females yet. We have some chest windows but not enough inner thigh windows, crotch bulges or buns of steel pants yet. Male models are relatively neglected in general because developers don't want to make "anyone uncomfortable" - and by anyone they mean the largest gamer demographic. > In short - they just aren't ready to do something as progressive as letting a male character wear a cocktail dress and garters. > > Just remember - the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. We need sexier male armor period. Sexy cross dressing may come later. (Though I suspect by then it will be a "jumping the shark" kind of scenario. lol!) Good, i would really not appreciate the art setting around me with a bunch of drag queens everywhere. I don't mind more lets say male chests, or fitting pants if that's the problem just as long as it's not a crossgender fest up in here i'm good. I'm sure games can be made to satisfy those needing to dress up in that fashion, which is all good for them just don't shove it down my throat as it is not a neutral construct which is why people might react against it similar to if you play way too loud music in public places often people will complain as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coso.9173 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 We do have some sexy revealing male armor and outfits, but most of them are the same kind, magic user kind of character. We lack some thief, leathers, ninja, etc form fitting revealing armor for males for instance. Think of archetypes. Chest showing in general. Most medium armors cover all the way to the neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Yes. I want to ware female locked outfits on my male norn because he has moobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatsumi.2047 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Here's an easy solution to your trivial problem; Buy an identity repair kit and change your gender to whatever version of an outfit you want. Or just make a new character with the gender you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impudicus.5807 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 O hell, how far will this gender policy going. My female Silvari necromancer identifies as a male Charr warrior. Where the heck is my heavy flower armor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"KeoLegend.5132" said: > > @"sevenDEADLY.5281" said: > > > @"AgentMoore.9453" said: > > > > > Show your work. Clearly you have access to game data to be able to proclaim those things as fact, right? > > > > > > Feel however you want about gender and clothes, but don't try to speak for others and isolate people by telling them they're part of a tiny group just because you disagree with them. The OP is asking why they can't wear both versions of an outfit on both genders; the core answer is game limitations, everything else is just noise intended to divide and hurt people. > > > > Some quick research shows that roughly 4.5% of the US population and 6% in the EU identify as LGBTQ oriented. Saying he doesn't speak for others also applies to you, and the facts are that such a small percentage of population does qualify technically as niche. Any person that is part of a group always overestimates that group's size because they surround themselves with it. But numbers don't lie. So doubling your workload to cater to 4.5% to 6% of a population is unfortunately unrealistic. > > 1. That quota doesn't apply to this game. Most LGBTQ ppl doesn't even play games or are huge fans of movies, thats why so many of the kitten movies are flopping > 2. Even if 6% of all game population consisted of LGBTQ and even if they would demand what you're demanding that would still be a terrible decision, at least until that 6% becomes a minimum of 51% of the game total population. The worst mistake a company can make is to hear a small (and VERY LOUD) minority that wishes for changes that will annoy the majority and will make (guess what) the 94% of the players leave. 1.) I've never seen statistics that the lgbtQ community doesn't play games and watches movies. I'm very interested in those statistics. 2.) this is a giant logical fallacy. 94 percent won't leave if they cater to the 6 percent. Most won't care either way. You're not either a cross dresser or completely against crossdressing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Greyhawk.9107 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Lets try to cool it down a bit, folks, or just let this topic go if we can't do that. The technical reasons have been iterated and reiterated, but the demographic aspects of this discussion are quickly devolving into a fight or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lini.2698 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 To me my characters aren't extensions of myself, just dress up dolls when it comes to armor and outfits. That said, I'd love to get the option to use the "male" version on my female characters 'cause I never was a fan of the way female armors are portrayed far too often. And using the "female" version of an outfit on my male characters would be neat. More options is always fun. Anet, if you let me use the "feminine" version of Kasmeer's outfit on my Faren alt I'll actually buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevenDEADLY.5281 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"The Greyhawk.9107" said: > As such I don't think its conducive to at least an attempt at a semi-reasonable discussion to bring up stats of how much of the IRL population is gay or trans, or how many of them play GW2 or games in general. Its also not a good idea to be making inferences of bigotry against the other commenters, its disingenuous and helps no one. How is statistical data bigotry? I made no comment about different communities or inference of hatred towards anyone. Why is statistical data suddenly "bigotry" when it's not 100% supporting a particular side? If I have 10 apples and nine of them are red and one is green, stating such doesn't suddenly make the data bigotry against green apples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coso.9173 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"sevenDEADLY.5281" said: > > @"The Greyhawk.9107" said: > > As such I don't think its conducive to at least an attempt at a semi-reasonable discussion to bring up stats of how much of the IRL population is gay or trans, or how many of them play GW2 or games in general. Its also not a good idea to be making inferences of bigotry against the other commenters, its disingenuous and helps no one. > > How is statistical data bigotry? I made no comment about different communities or inference of hatred towards anyone. Why is statistical data suddenly "bigotry" when it's not 100% supporting a particular side? If I have 10 apples and nine of them are red and one is green, stating such doesn't suddenly make the data bigotry against green apples. > > people are not apples. and in a situation of actual abuse, if you stay neutral, you're indiretly taking the abuser's side. not saying this is the case. but there's no true impartiality on social issues where a minority has been abused for years by others. but lets get back on topic shall we? this topic has nothing to do with LGBTQ people or how many play the game. it's been stated many times already that this is about more options and leaving more choice instead of the usual tropes of sexy women and full armored guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevenDEADLY.5281 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"coso.9173" said: > people are not apples. and in a situation of actual abuse, if you stay neutral, you're indiretly taking the abuser's side. not saying this is the case. but there's no true impartiality on social issues where a minority has been abused for years by others. > but lets get back on topic shall we? this topic has nothing to do with LGBTQ people or how many play the game. it's been stated many times already that this is about more options and leaving more choice instead of the usual tropes of sexy women and full armored guys. This game already has many armor sets that are visually identical between sexes, and many that are not. Having different appearing armors between sexes is not a situation of abuse. The percentage of "sexy" armors vs non are also not in favor of someone trying to act like this game is forcing female characters to be dressed this way. If you personally are seeing a lot of "sexy" characters it's because people are choosing to make their characters that way. There are far more non sexy armor choices in the game than there are scantily clad ones. More options are great, except as stated many many times already in this thread, creating 4 different versions of a single piece of armor per race instead of 2 is literally twice the work for barely any reward on Arenanet's part. Armor's in this game are custom fitted, they're not as simple as hitting a button to fit it to a form. Sometimes they make armor sets visually identical between the sexes, and sometimes they don't so there are actually options for everyone. My guardian for example is a huge norn wearing gladiator style armor that I would certainly not consider "fully armored." He has a lot of skin showing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo Chocolate.5870 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > @"Tommo Chocolate.5870" said: > > I wonder which specific outfit(s) the OP is interested in. Most people in this thread, on both sides of the argument, seem to think this is about cross-dressing, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. > Well, in my (perhaps simplistic) definition, cross-dressing is when someone wears clothing that are considered meant for the opposite gender. So when someone wants to put a female version on a male character that is cross-dressing in my mind. The reason why someone wants to do that is not part of my definition however. > > As for your example of armor sets, I have to disagree with you. Things like bare shoulders, showing cleavage (bra-like tops), more flowery themes and exposed hips are definitely more associated with female dress styles. So I'll give you Rox's armor set but the rest are definitely feminine in the female versions. I mean sure, Asura and Charr but most people will be looking at the human, norn and sylvari ones and there the differences are generally very clear between them. Sure, I did say "little or nothing". Perhaps I wasn't being specific enough. Take the Shadow Assassin outfit, for example. If I had just seen the female version, I'd expect the male version to look pretty similar, just without as much exposed skin (and I suppose without the flowers, which I'll admit I hadn't spotted before). But instead the male version is an almost completely different (although thematically related) design. And the same goes for the other outfits I listed - there are significant differences in the designs that aren't related to masculinity/femininity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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