Zeal Symbolbrand Nerf Suggestions (PvP Split)

[shadowpass.4236]

@"ollbirtan.2915"

@"Fueki.4753"

@"otto.5684"

@"ZDragon.3046"

 


 

As I've stated before, and the FB main for Team USA agrees, it's the core guard traitlines that are the issue with Symbolbrand. Feel free to argue otherwise, but people who actually main the spec (Arken too) or have a lot of experience with/against better players, don't have an issue recognizing the root of the problem.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> As I've stated before, and the FB main for Team USA agrees, it's the core guard traitlines that are the issue with Symbolbrand. Feel free to argue otherwise, but people who actually main the spec (Arken too) or have a lot of experience with/against better players, don't have an issue recognizing the root of the problem.

 

Then thell the world why people cry specifically about the Firebrand variant and not Symbol-**everything**?

If Symbols were oh-so-overperforming, **everything** using symbols would be over-performing.

 

[otto.5684]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> @"ollbirtan.2915"

> @"Fueki.4753"

> @"otto.5684"

> @"ZDragon.3046"

>

> 

>

> As I've stated before, and the FB main for Team USA agrees, it's the core guard traitlines that are the issue with Symbolbrand. Feel free to argue otherwise, but people who actually main the spec (Arken too) or have a lot of experience with/against better players, don't have an issue recognizing the root of the problem.

 

Yes there is. The double justice proc minor in zeal. It is the only reason that zeal becomes useable for FB. I think it needs to be removed even in PvE. Al

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > As I've stated before, and the FB main for Team USA agrees, it's the core guard traitlines that are the issue with Symbolbrand. Feel free to argue otherwise, but people who actually main the spec (Arken too) or have a lot of experience with/against better players, don't have an issue recognizing the root of the problem.

>

> Then thell the world why people cry specifically about the Firebrand variant and not Symbol-**everything**?

> If Symbols were oh-so-overperforming, **everything** using symbols would be over-performing.

>

 

Can you take a minute to comprehend the fact that the two are not mutually exclusive? There is plenty of overlap and while Firebrand and the core traits for Symbols are both overperforming, Naru, Arken, I, and many others are trying to get the point across that it's not _just_ Firebrand that's the issue.

 

Sorry your logic is very faulty. Just because symbols are overperforming on one build, doesn't mean they're overperforming on all of them. That's like saying Gazelle on Core Marksmanship ranger is doing too much damage so that means it must be doing too much damage on all builds that use Gazelle. Literally makes no sense lol.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> @"ollbirtan.2915"

> @"Fueki.4753"

> @"otto.5684"

> @"ZDragon.3046"

>

> 

>

> As I've stated before, and the FB main for Team USA agrees, it's the core guard traitlines that are the issue with Symbolbrand. Feel free to argue otherwise, but people who actually main the spec (Arken too) or have a lot of experience with/against better players, don't have an issue recognizing the root of the problem.

 

But do they actually use core guardian or are they using Firebrand while saying that?

Whats the point of saying its not a firebrand issue but a core guardian line issue if they are not using core guardian and claiming those things.

That seems kind of redundant if you ask me even if you are on Team USA (some of whom are not the nicest of people) so i feel no obligation to see them any as anyone different from a player who just mains guardian.

 

Pro firebrand player plays FB

Pro firebrand player says core line is the problem

Pro fireband player not using core guardian tho....

Must be correct cause Team USA

 

All that nerfing the core lines will do is scale down the power from the base which will lower firebrands effectiveness a tiny bit when what should happen is shaving firebrand from the top and leaving core as valid as it ever was. People generally never took issue with core guardian because it was almost always one of the most fair professions in the game. I personally think it still is.

[Gwaihir.1745]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> @"ollbirtan.2915"

> @"Fueki.4753"

> @"otto.5684"

> @"ZDragon.3046"

>

> 

>

> As I've stated before, and the FB main for Team USA agrees, it's the core guard traitlines that are the issue with Symbolbrand. Feel free to argue otherwise, but people who actually main the spec (Arken too) or have a lot of experience with/against better players, don't have an issue recognizing the root of the problem.

 

Hmm so many problems here where to start. If the root of the problem were outside FB as you say we would see an issue on build outside of FB. We do not.

 

Being good at something does not make you good at balancing it. Cough vallun.

 

You can Streisand this one all day but it will not change the misguidance here.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"ollbirtan.2915"

> > @"Fueki.4753"

> > @"otto.5684"

> > @"ZDragon.3046"

> >

> > 

> >

> > As I've stated before, and the FB main for Team USA agrees, it's the core guard traitlines that are the issue with Symbolbrand. Feel free to argue otherwise, but people who actually main the spec (Arken too) or have a lot of experience with/against better players, don't have an issue recognizing the root of the problem.

>

> But do they actually use core guardian or are they using Firebrand while saying that?

> Whats the point of saying its not a firebrand issue but a core guardian line issue if they are not using core guardian and claiming those things.

> That seems kind of redundant if you ask me even if you are on Team USA (some of whom are not the nicest of people) so i feel no obligation to see them any as anyone different from a player who just mains guardian.

>

> Pro firebrand player plays FB

> Pro firebrand player says core line is the problem

> Pro fireband player not using core guardian tho....

> Must be correct cause Team USA

>

> All that nerfing the core lines will do is scale down the power from the base which will lower firebrands effectiveness a tiny bit when what should happen is shaving firebrand from the top and leaving core as valid as it ever was. People generally never took issue with core guardian because it was almost always one of the most fair professions in the game. I personally think it still is.

 

Naru plays core guardian all the time on stream.

[NotoriousNaru.1705]

I guess I'll clarify some things here since my post got dragged in to this for some reason:

1. The reason you run firebrand with symbolbrand is because firebrand gives you the ability to support and give buffs to allies. The line is intended as a support, and it does just that.It does NOT have any degenerate mechanics. In fact, the tomes are fairly visible and easy to comprehend. Comms like "Fb is in f2 focus him" or "Fb is in f3 corrupt stab" are very common among anyone who plays above g3.

2. The core variant of symbolic is actually very cancerous, and in fact it beats symbolbrand in 1v1, it is a more solo oriented side noder and some people on na have been known to play it like thermite. It is also more degenerate to play because the skill of managing tomes whilst applying optimal symbol pressure is gone due to virtues simply being instant cast skills(with the radiance line) giving you even more retal and dmg buffs. You can try that build for yourself and 1v1 a symbolbrand on it, you will notice you sustain and do more dmg than them.

3. The game mode doesn't revolve around 1v1s or being a solo player and that is why firebrand is an optimal 3rd line. I fail to see how firebrand is the main offender when all it does is be a support and the only obnoxious thing the line brings to symbolbrand is mantra of truth(as I've stated before).

4. I know a lot of people in here are very sensitive and care very much how their class is balanced but remember an elite spec is only 1/3 of a build. The only justification of it being the sole offender of something is if the mechanic of that elite spec is the sole reason the spec is cancerous. I might be mistaken here, but most people's issue with symbolbrand is the constant non stop spamming of 4x symbols that you have access to on very short cooldowns in a very short cycle. Nerfing firebrand more will kill any support the spec has of course, because support is what firebrand brings but if anets goal is to make 2v2 and conquest healthier I'd have to assume they do not want the kind of obnoxious symbol spamming and visual noise that comes with the symbol play style. A lot of people in here really need a hard look in the mirror you are defending something that is literally killing the game and deterring people from playing just because its your class doesn't mean its right. No game mode especially one that has this much emphasis on zoning and capture points should have 1 class with the ability to spam 4 symbols that each last for just about as long as their cooldown on a consistant spammy cycle. Ask yourself if the issue is that symbol spam or a firebrands ability to support.

5. Also for those wondering sage is NOT meta. The reason you no longer run sage is because of the perma retal/fury buff zeal got last patch along with the invuln trait that can easily stack to 10+. You do more dmg on zeal mender and sustain better. Also, a condi rev's resistance will literally out tick your burns so it makes sage very useless currently.

[Axl.8924]

Can we nerf sustain of firebrand? they a bit too strong when combined with CC immnity block and those big aoes they throw.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"ollbirtan.2915"

> > > @"Fueki.4753"

> > > @"otto.5684"

> > > @"ZDragon.3046"

> > >

> > > 

> > >

> > > As I've stated before, and the FB main for Team USA agrees, it's the core guard traitlines that are the issue with Symbolbrand. Feel free to argue otherwise, but people who actually main the spec (Arken too) or have a lot of experience with/against better players, don't have an issue recognizing the root of the problem.

> >

> > But do they actually use core guardian or are they using Firebrand while saying that?

> > Whats the point of saying its not a firebrand issue but a core guardian line issue if they are not using core guardian and claiming those things.

> > That seems kind of redundant if you ask me even if you are on Team USA (some of whom are not the nicest of people) so i feel no obligation to see them any as anyone different from a player who just mains guardian.

> >

> > Pro firebrand player plays FB

> > Pro firebrand player says core line is the problem

> > Pro fireband player not using core guardian tho....

> > Must be correct cause Team USA

> >

> > All that nerfing the core lines will do is scale down the power from the base which will lower firebrands effectiveness a tiny bit when what should happen is shaving firebrand from the top and leaving core as valid as it ever was. People generally never took issue with core guardian because it was almost always one of the most fair professions in the game. I personally think it still is.

>

> Naru plays core guardian all the time on stream.

 

then he should understand how core guardian is not the problem portion that the other some odd 90% ish people ive seen to seem to agree with both here and in game that core guardian or its lines are hardly the issue.

 

Again if we saw symbols and zeal as the issue in other builds that were not firebrand builds we might agree with him but thats not what we are seeing in game. The problem only exsist on firebrand builds. Which would naturally points to well it must have something to do with firebrand.

Now could we be wrong? Sure

Could the pro Team USA player be wrong? Sure

Is the game going to be balanced around Team USA players or other top players? No

 

IF fire brand kept the damage and pressure it had and died just as fast as core guardian due to a limited number of sustain buttons people wouldnt have an issue with it but currently it pressures hard, its got good damage, and good sustain the only semi weakness to it is the fact that its a bit weak at ranged combat and it has tools to counter that pressure too.

[shadowpass.4236]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"ollbirtan.2915"

> > > > @"Fueki.4753"

> > > > @"otto.5684"

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046"

> > > >

> > > > 

> > > >

> > > > As I've stated before, and the FB main for Team USA agrees, it's the core guard traitlines that are the issue with Symbolbrand. Feel free to argue otherwise, but people who actually main the spec (Arken too) or have a lot of experience with/against better players, don't have an issue recognizing the root of the problem.

> > >

> > > But do they actually use core guardian or are they using Firebrand while saying that?

> > > Whats the point of saying its not a firebrand issue but a core guardian line issue if they are not using core guardian and claiming those things.

> > > That seems kind of redundant if you ask me even if you are on Team USA (some of whom are not the nicest of people) so i feel no obligation to see them any as anyone different from a player who just mains guardian.

> > >

> > > Pro firebrand player plays FB

> > > Pro firebrand player says core line is the problem

> > > Pro fireband player not using core guardian tho....

> > > Must be correct cause Team USA

> > >

> > > All that nerfing the core lines will do is scale down the power from the base which will lower firebrands effectiveness a tiny bit when what should happen is shaving firebrand from the top and leaving core as valid as it ever was. People generally never took issue with core guardian because it was almost always one of the most fair professions in the game. I personally think it still is.

> >

> > Naru plays core guardian all the time on stream.

>

> then he should understand how core guardian is not the problem portion that the other some odd 90% ish people ive seen to seem to agree with both here and in game that core guardian or its lines are hardly the issue.

>

> Again if we saw symbols and zeal as the issue in other builds that were not firebrand builds we might agree with him but thats not what we are seeing in game. The problem only exsist on firebrand builds. Which would naturally points to well it must have something to do with firebrand.

> Now could we be wrong? Sure

> Could the pro Team USA player be wrong? Sure

> Is the game going to be balanced around Team USA players or other top players? No

>

> IF fire brand kept the damage and pressure it had and died just as fast as core guardian due to a limited number of sustain buttons people wouldnt have an issue with it but currently it pressures hard, its got good damage, and good sustain the only semi weakness to it is the fact that its a bit weak at ranged combat and it has tools to counter that pressure too.

 

People are complaining about soulbeast damage but marksmanship, a core traitline, and beastmastery, another core traitline, are working together to enable that damage.

 

People are complaining about symbolbrand but zeal, a core traitline, and honor, another core traitline, are working together to enable those issues.

 

I'm fine with nerfing the modifiers on marks and the base damage on certain pet skills because those are the main culprits in causing the imbalance. I'm not going around saying "gut soulbeast some more because core and druid builds aren't overpowered" because that wouldn't make much sense. Firebrand gives support, and it's support got nerfed in the last patch. It's the symbols from zeal and honor that are the roots of the problem. You can nerf Firebrand all you want but those symbols are insane and there is literally a core build that can drop a person in seconds due to the damage symbols pump out. No, that build is not Firebrand, and no, it's not meta. But that doesn't change the fact that it's still extremely strong and currently both underused and overlooked.

[Arken.3725]

I'll just compound off of what's been said and give my 2cents(regardless of how well It's received). The short version, essentially:

 

- Symbols in tandem with traits that support them(Writ of Persistence and essentially all of Zeal) allow FB to pressure exceptionally well utilizing massive AoE's instead of single-target to do the heavy-lifting. There's very little trade-off here outside of just walking outside of said AoE's.

 

- Reason why FB, when supported with such a mechanic is strong vs. say DH and core is because of what it offers innately. Axe is the best weapon Guardian currently has, Tome's offer far more than both base virtue's/DH's physical virtue's ever could. On top of (arguably) far better traits and skills.

 

- ALL of its sustain and damage revolves around Aegis and Symbols(which is actually great, you want active sustain) but that is confined to a single trait-line(Honor). When, for the most part, all of this is confined to a single trait-line that not only sustains you well but your teammates, it's a cinch as to why anyone would take it. The worst part of it all(when it comes to symbols) is every dang weapon has one so you're essentially forced to spec into it.

 

When you compound all of these factors you get some seriously nasty play. As I've said before and I'll say it again as a basis for BASIC balance:

 

- Single-target should(for the most part) be far superior to its AoE counterpart. Instant skills should also be inferior to those that have an obvious cast-time/animation. Melee > Range, ect..... Unfortunately, with FB's symbolness, you have some serious AoE pressure equal to that(even greater in some cases).

 

[otto.5684]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> Can we nerf sustain of firebrand? they a bit too strong when combined with CC immnity block and those big aoes they throw.

 

Ya. Though, in the grand scheme of things it would not matter much.

 

Though this thread is mostly potatoes, and the OP does not know much. What needs to change:

 

Symbolic Power in Zeal line, remove the double justice proc. I would also prefer they remove additional symbol damage as well, and load it into something else that supports power damage. But considering that this was changed not that long ago, and Anet insist to keep adding more stuff to symbols, against the request of all the players base, particularly guardians, I do not expect this to change. At least take out the double justice proc in PvP.

 

Pure of Heart, honor trait (heal on aegis), reduce the heal coefficient by 25%.

 

Writ of Persistence, honor trait (heal on symbol), reduce the heal coefficient by 25%.

 

Axe symbol CD increased from 8 to 12 secs, PvP only. Not a suggestion everyone would agree with, I think the daze should be removed in favor of a debuff (probably slow).

 

Mantra of solace, Restoring Reprieve, increase the CD from 12 to 15, and increase the healing proportionally (20%). This reduces the aegis spam. PvP only.

 

Mantra of truth, Echo of Truth, remove the weakness from all casts. It already does too much. Increase CD from 12 to 15, PvP only.

 

Mantra of solace, Opening Passage, reduce duration of reg. from 5 to 3 secs. PvP only.

 

ToC, Chapter 3: Valiant Bulwark, CD from 8 secs to 15 secs. PvP only.

 

There are many other things that need to change. Some buffs, some nerfs. Previous patch was supposed to do that.. and it did not. This is why we are here...

[Axl.8924]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > Can we nerf sustain of firebrand? they a bit too strong when combined with CC immnity block and those big aoes they throw.

>

> Ya. Though, in the grand scheme of things it would not matter much.

>

> Though this thread is mostly potatoes, and the OP does not know much. What needs to change:

>

> Symbolic Power in Zeal line, remove the double justice proc. I would also prefer they remove additional symbol damage as well, and load it into something else that supports power damage. But considering that this was changed not that long ago, and Anet insist to keep adding more stuff to symbols, against the request of all the players base, particularly guardians, I do not expect this to change. At least take out the double justice proc in PvP.

>

> Pure of Heart, honor trait (heal on aegis), reduce the heal coefficient by 25%.

>

> Writ of Persistence, honor trait (heal on symbol), reduce the heal coefficient by 25%.

>

> Axe symbol CD increased from 8 to 12 secs, PvP only. Not a suggestion everyone would agree with, I think the daze should be removed in favor of a debuff (probably slow).

>

> Mantra of solace, Restoring Reprieve, increase the CD from 12 to 15, and increase the healing proportionally (20%). This reduces the aegis spam. PvP only.

>

> Mantra of truth, Echo of Truth, remove the weakness from all casts. It already does too much. Increase CD from 12 to 15, PvP only.

>

> Mantra of solace, Opening Passage, reduce duration of reg. from 5 to 3 secs. PvP only.

>

> ToC, Chapter 3: Valiant Bulwark, CD from 8 secs to 15 secs. PvP only.

>

> There are many other things that need to change. Some buffs, some nerfs. Previous patch was supposed to do that.. and it did not. This is why we are here...

 

What i can tell you from when i fought 1v1 many times vs firebrand, they are beyond OP with their ground attacks their stupid chainpull combined with invuln from that block a barrier thingy that makes them immune to arrows moving quickly. I Don' t know what else to say. Every time i try to get away i get yanked back spammed th at stupid ground bomb knock back aoe bombed

 

At least with herald you can go and stun them, not like firebrand which is immune to knock backs and their block seems to last for kitten ever while spamming.

 

Sure its really hard since the those aoe bombs have really massive carpet of fire. the shiny thing that firebrand has i don't know what its called but its that thing where you see a shiny floor with cut rocks that bursts and you are hit with knockback/Stun whatever. Even if you do manage to get some necro to corrupt he seems to have infinite boons, he's just plain nuts to have that kinda dps while also having that kinda sustain.

 

[otto.5684]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > Can we nerf sustain of firebrand? they a bit too strong when combined with CC immnity block and those big aoes they throw.

> >

> > Ya. Though, in the grand scheme of things it would not matter much.

> >

> > Though this thread is mostly potatoes, and the OP does not know much. What needs to change:

> >

> > Symbolic Power in Zeal line, remove the double justice proc. I would also prefer they remove additional symbol damage as well, and load it into something else that supports power damage. But considering that this was changed not that long ago, and Anet insist to keep adding more stuff to symbols, against the request of all the players base, particularly guardians, I do not expect this to change. At least take out the double justice proc in PvP.

> >

> > Pure of Heart, honor trait (heal on aegis), reduce the heal coefficient by 25%.

> >

> > Writ of Persistence, honor trait (heal on symbol), reduce the heal coefficient by 25%.

> >

> > Axe symbol CD increased from 8 to 12 secs, PvP only. Not a suggestion everyone would agree with, I think the daze should be removed in favor of a debuff (probably slow).

> >

> > Mantra of solace, Restoring Reprieve, increase the CD from 12 to 15, and increase the healing proportionally (20%). This reduces the aegis spam. PvP only.

> >

> > Mantra of truth, Echo of Truth, remove the weakness from all casts. It already does too much. Increase CD from 12 to 15, PvP only.

> >

> > Mantra of solace, Opening Passage, reduce duration of reg. from 5 to 3 secs. PvP only.

> >

> > ToC, Chapter 3: Valiant Bulwark, CD from 8 secs to 15 secs. PvP only.

> >

> > There are many other things that need to change. Some buffs, some nerfs. Previous patch was supposed to do that.. and it did not. This is why we are here...

>

> What i can tell you from when i fought 1v1 many times vs firebrand, they are beyond OP with their ground attacks their stupid chainpull combined with invuln from that block a barrier thingy that makes them immune to arrows moving quickly. I Don' t know what else to say. Every time i try to get away i get yanked back spammed th at stupid ground bomb knock back aoe bombed

>

> At least with herald you can go and stun them, not like firebrand which is immune to knock backs and their block seems to last for kitten ever while spamming.

>

> Sure its really hard since the those aoe bombs have really massive carpet of fire. the shiny thing that firebrand has i don't know what its called but its that thing where you see a shiny floor with cut rocks that bursts and you are hit with knockback/Stun whatever. Even if you do manage to get some necro to corrupt he seems to have infinite boons, he's just plain nuts to have that kinda dps while also having that kinda sustain.

>

 

As a guardian main, and not a FB enthusiast, I find zeal/honor/FB to be over rated. Do not get me wrong, it takes forever to kill, and in conquest 2 of them become nigh impossible to deal with on point. But Sage FB, virtues/honor/FB is far more deadly as condi damage. And adds to the mix of the defbuffs chill and scales fire so much faster. It is just not symbol dependent at all. Pre patch, I use to rag doll most zeal FBs with DH (to be fair, skill was in my favor most of the time).

 

The biggest issue with FB, IMO, the the daze on axe 2 It is way too spammable (note, not the only issue, hence my suggested nerfs). Sadly, Anet, in their infinite wisdom, decided that a game infested with AOE CC needs less CC breaks and stability :/

[Fueki.4753]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> Pure of Heart, honor trait (heal on aegis), reduce the heal coefficient by 25%.

> Writ of Persistence, honor trait (heal on symbol), reduce the heal coefficient by 25%.

 

Core already lost healing on Greatsword skills due to Firebrand.

I'd rather not have even less sustain on Cure and DH, unless they boost the base HP for more passive sustain.

But Elite specs having different Base HP than classes has been asked for multiple times, yet it always got ignored.

 

Also, evaded Symbols is easy and fast.

When I tried Guardian in 2vs2, they **never** hit anyone for more than one tick (if at all).

Symbols have the biggest counterplay of any other mechanic: Just move away.

[otto.5684]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > Pure of Heart, honor trait (heal on aegis), reduce the heal coefficient by 25%.

> > Writ of Persistence, honor trait (heal on symbol), reduce the heal coefficient by 25%.

>

> Core already lost healing on Greatsword skills due to Firebrand.

> I'd rather not have even less sustain on Cure and DH, unless they boost the base HP for more passive sustain.

> But Elite specs having different Base HP than classes has been asked for multiple times, yet it always got ignored.

>

> Also, evaded Symbols is easy and fast.

> When I tried Guardian in 2vs2, they **never** hit anyone for more than one tick (if at all).

> Symbols have the biggest counterplay of any other mechanic: Just move away.

 

Almost no DH build uses honor (and there is not any competitive DH builds anyway). And regardless, considering how low current damage levels are, I do not see that being an issue. I think these heal for too much, even before this patch.