How to fix the new player experience.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

OP has obviously never played a Korean MMO if they think GW2's leveling process is a "slog".

[coso.9173]

I agree that levels don't make much sense as it takes so little to get to 80.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > Remove the Meta and the over hard expansions and the game would shine for new players..

> >

> > You can't "remove the meta". And the expansions aren't hard.

>

> why could i complete the core game, but not the expansions, then?

 

...because apparently you failed at learning the basics of the game and its mechanics? Which still doesn't make it hard, it's probably more of a "I just want to press 1 and watch stuff die while I get fat lootz" -in that case you might want to go play an idle/clicker game instead of an rpg.

 

>if they arent hard, then you should see millions of players there

 

I fail to see the logic in that, there's so many games that aren't hard and yet never reach "millions of players" that I'm not even sure how you came up with this statement.

 

> 1: what should they put in it? given the backlash from the first attempts, they have very few choices left

> 2: who is gonna buy it? is there anyone left, that they havent disappointed yet?

 

What backlash? Seems to me people in general are happy with the expansions.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> OP has obviously never played a Korean MMO if they think GW2's leveling process is a "slog".

 

Yup. And you get xp for almost anything you do in the game -not sure leveling in mmorpg can get much more casual than it is here.

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

The NPE change they made years ago was the second worst change they've ever made to the game. Based on that's fiasco, they should never touch it again.

[Kurrilino.2706]

> @"Hypnowulf.7403" said:

> I think it's time to remove levels. All I ask is that you hear me out.

>

> I feel that Guild Wars 2 is a game whose design is focused around the concept of freedom of play and enjoying a lot of alt characters. The least fun thing in any MMORPG is grinding up a new character from the beginning, which is why a lot of new players will either bounce off of the game or get a level 80 boost and stick with only a handful of characters. This limits the majority of players from doing what they'll want to do—making alts.

>

 

Dude, you lost me already here.

Creating a new character and level him/her up revisiting the super relaxing and beautiful areas of the game is the most fun you can have

in this game. And there are not many highlights.

While doing that you can experiment with level increasing skills and builds you would never look at.

 

So yeah let's remove the RPG section out of a RPG game. Brilliant idea.

We also limit the majority of players doing what they like, who like Flight Simulators. So let's introduce Aircraft Carriers and air combat.

 

 

[battledrone.8315]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > opinion is one thing, look at the drop in income after hot. that is NOT normal for a popular game with its first expansion.

>

> It is normal when said game goes free to play with the release of the expansion. A core game that was actually selling at the time. Even NCSoft at the time said that conversions are low, meaning free to play players turning into paying customers. You see up to the release of HOT anyone that wanted to try the game had to pay for it. After HOT they could try it for free, and IF the core game managed to grab them, they'd buy the expansion. But that was confirmed by NCSoft that it didn't happen, it's not the fault of the expansion.

>

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > if they arent hard, then you should see millions of players there

>

> The vast majority of this game's accounts haven't reached any of the two expansions, is that the fault of the expansions? No, it's the fault of the core game for not grabbing the attention of those players long enough so they can buy the expansions. The reason you don't see millions of players playing the expansions, is because the core game didn't manage to meet expectations for those players to buy the expansions. Since you talked about the drop in income after HOT, watch the drop in income after... release.

>

> They are doing some effort now, some many years later, to improve the starting experience, maybe it will work out and free players will start converting.

>

> tl;dr Don't blame the expansions, the core game is what is lacking. It might've been good on release, but 8 years later it shows its age.

 

they already got the good part for free, why should they pay for the bad part? and the last 3 zones in core are HORRIBLE+ the zhaitan fight itself...yea

when (if) they reach that part, they have prolly heard the general opinion on the expansions

and its easier to sell a meal to a hungry man, than a well fed one

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> they already got the good part for free, why should they pay for the bad part? and the last 3 zones in core are HORRIBLE+ the zhaitan fight itself...yea

 

It's the other way around. If they like the free part, they will buy the expansions. If they don't like the free part, they won't buy the expansions. After all, how would they know the next part is "bad" if they don't try it? Which is exactly what was going on before going free to play.

 

> when (if) they reach that part, they have prolly heard the general opinion on the expansions

 

Do note that even in the case that a player thinks they won't like an expansion, based on the opinion of others, they will still use the gem store to support the game they enjoy. If the core game was THAT good they will buy the expansion, the core game, which is free, is the demo, or the advertisement for the game, it's up to it to sell the expansions. And generate gem store revenue. Exactly because it's not very up to par is why expansions, the gem store, and the game's revenue as a whole is suffering.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > > Remove the Meta and the over hard expansions and the game would shine for new players..

> > >

> > > You can't "remove the meta". And the expansions aren't hard.

> >

> > why could i complete the core game, but not the expansions, then?

>

> ...because apparently you failed at learning the basics of the game and its mechanics? Which still doesn't make it hard, it's probably more of a "I just want to press 1 and watch stuff die while I get fat lootz" -in that case you might want to go play an idle/clicker game instead of an rpg.

>

> >if they arent hard, then you should see millions of players there

>

> I fail to see the logic in that, there's so many games that aren't hard and yet never reach "millions of players" that I'm not even sure how you came up with this statement.

>

> > 1: what should they put in it? given the backlash from the first attempts, they have very few choices left

> > 2: who is gonna buy it? is there anyone left, that they havent disappointed yet?

>

> What backlash? Seems to me people in general are happy with the expansions.

 

the few remaining players are obviously, happy or they would had left too

but all those, who left ,werent

anet have the numbers, and you can bet, that if they were GOOD numbers, they would had made more of the same

a well run business builds on its strengths, and hides its weaknesses

[Ben K.6238]

> @"Hypnowulf.7403" said:

> I think it's time to remove levels. All I ask is that you hear me out.

>

> I feel that Guild Wars 2 is a game whose design is focused around the concept of freedom of play and enjoying a lot of alt characters. The least fun thing in any MMORPG is grinding up a new character from the beginning, which is why a lot of new players will either bounce off of the game or get a level 80 boost and stick with only a handful of characters. This limits the majority of players from doing what they'll want to do—making alts.

 

While I think there may be a case to be made for a game without levels, this is not it. Starting from level 1 is only tedious for people who want to play a lot of alts.

 

For new players, that's not the case, as they're experiencing everything for the first time and still learning about the game. The game is not designed to suddenly become interesting at level 80 - if the gameplay from levels 1-20 doesn't appeal, they're probably not going to enjoy it at level 80 either.

 

Players who have already finished the game are the ones who are more likely to get bored when levelling alts, since the rest of the game, apart from their new character's skills and traits, is already familiar. However, there are quite a lot of tomes, level boosts etc. that can make levelling alts as fast as you like. If I was planning to make more alts I'd just stop consuming the tomes on characters that are already level 80 for a bit.

[roederich.2716]

i dont want after all the years anet to spend always time on new player experience.

is like running in a circle, stop thinking that new players are babys who cant think on their own.

 

everybody who can plug a pc to an internet router and go online, manage to install the game can get into it.

 

for the sake of advancement stop babysitter other people around!

[Andovar Edoras.2143]

Back when I was a new player, I remember how leveling up a character from 1 to 80 was enjoyable and really got me hooked to the game.

Offering instant-80 to new players is Really bad, and is unlikely to make them stick.

It's like playing Minecraft Survival the normal way, or just immediately having Creative mode, making everything obsolete and boring.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > they already got the good part for free, why should they pay for the bad part? and the last 3 zones in core are HORRIBLE+ the zhaitan fight itself...yea

>

> It's the other way around. If they like the free part, they will buy the expansions. If they don't like the free part, they won't buy the expansions. After all, how would they know the next part is "bad" if they don't try it? Which is exactly what was going on before going free to play.

>

> > when (if) they reach that part, they have prolly heard the general opinion on the expansions

>

> Do note that even in the case that a player thinks they won't like an expansion, based on the opinion of others, they will still use the gem store to support the game they enjoy. If the core game was THAT good they will buy the expansion, the core game, which is free, is the demo, or the advertisement for the game, it's up to it to sell the expansions. And generate gem store revenue. Exactly because it's not very up to par is why expansions, the gem store, and the game's revenue as a whole is suffering.

 

have you ever met zhaitan? the creature they built up during most of the game? do you remember how bad it was?

we had a ELDER DRAGON, who forgot about her CLAWS. she forgot about GRAVITY. but she can still TELEPORT TROOPS ONTO A FLYING AIRSHIP.

all she had to do was to fly ON TOP of the airship and scratch a little. but no, lets use the difficult solution, that doesnt work any way.

and that is after the 3 last horrible zones. its a little miracle, that so many could get through it at all.

i did it twice. and considering how many times i had to rezz the others, i am far from the bottom of the barrel too

and people who want to support the core game, dont GET more core game either. all you want is other players to pay for YOUR entertainment.

the expansions are totally different from the core game.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Nowadays, it's not like the Core game is without restrictions (sans the very few that might find a Serial Key for the original release). If players like what they see (or want Mounts or Gliding or Elite Specs), they will likely purchase the expansion(s) long before Orr or Zhaitan.

 

Also, what's wrong with Orr?

[battledrone.8315]

> @"Andovar Edoras.2143" said:

> Back when I was a new player, I remember how leveling up a character from 1 to 80 was enjoyable and really got me hooked to the game.

> Offering instant-80 to new players is Really bad, and is unlikely to make them stick.

> It's like playing Minecraft Survival the normal way, or just immediately having Creative mode, making everything obsolete and boring.

 

this game has the best levelling experience on the market, too bad they didnt make more of that. and since its FREE, they cant even make money

on it anymore. the core game actually feels a lot like wow cataclysm IMO

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> have you ever met zhaitan? the creature they built up during most of the game? do you remember how bad it was?

> we had a ELDER DRAGON, who forgot about her CLAWS. she forgot about GRAVITY. but she can still TELEPORT TROOPS ONTO A FLYING AIRSHIP.

> all she had to do was to fly ON TOP of the airship and scratch a little. but no, lets use the difficult solution, that doesnt work any way.

> and that is after the 3 last horrible zones. its a little miracle, that so many could get through it at all.

> i did it twice. and considering how many times i had to rezz the others, i am far from the bottom of the barrel too

> and people who want to support the core game, dont GET more core game either. all you want is other players to pay for YOUR entertainment.

> the expansions are totally different from the core game.

 

Most accounts didn't even reach those 3 "horrible zones", they stopped much earlier.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > have you ever met zhaitan? the creature they built up during most of the game? do you remember how bad it was?

> > we had a ELDER DRAGON, who forgot about her CLAWS. she forgot about GRAVITY. but she can still TELEPORT TROOPS ONTO A FLYING AIRSHIP.

> > all she had to do was to fly ON TOP of the airship and scratch a little. but no, lets use the difficult solution, that doesnt work any way.

> > and that is after the 3 last horrible zones. its a little miracle, that so many could get through it at all.

> > i did it twice. and considering how many times i had to rezz the others, i am far from the bottom of the barrel too

> > and people who want to support the core game, dont GET more core game either. all you want is other players to pay for YOUR entertainment.

> > the expansions are totally different from the core game.

>

> Most accounts didn't even reach those 3 "horrible zones", they stopped much earlier.

 

even the mighty wow only had 10 % of the players go past lvl 20. and that was at its prime. only 5% ever reached max level.

such is the nature of the mmo business. and when they went F2P they opened the gates for a ton of alts and mules, they will make it

almost impossible to use account metrics anymore.

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > > I think some of your 'facts' are misinformed.

> > > Heart of Thorns was not an abject failure. There are just as many Devs at ArenaNet now as there were before Heart of Thorns. Leveling isn't a 'slog', and I've not seen many, if any, posts from new players stating it is.

> > >

> > > Birthday Gifts for only 1 character? Yeah, that will go over well.

> > >

> > > You want to sell the Elite Specializations that come free with expansion purchase? Again, I don't see that being very popular.

> > >

> > > I'd like to see the data that confirms new players don't make alts.

> >

> > if hot did so well, they would prolly had made more like that. it was the worst maps i have ever played in my 18y of mmo gaming.

> > and that was even AFTER the nerfs. didnt take long before i quit the story, and i suffered through several metas to unlock gliding.

> > it had ONE good thing, the guitar playing frog...GG anet

> >

>

> Interesting, I think hot maps are the best mmo maps I've played in 40 years, it's horses for courses however. If hot done so badly they would not have invested in another expansion, but they did, except pof was a flat map structure totally unlike hot, no expansion to be seen since then.

Well I don't think we've had MMOs for 40 years but I get your point. However, HoT maps are complex and are tough to go through without mounts for a lot of players. You may like them a lot but for a lot of casual players they are hell. I found them rather confusing and annoying but got more appreciation for them later on. Still don't like all of them though. Tangled Depths I think it is (the one after Auric Basin) I still don't enjoy at all. However, that's opinions. What isn't a matter of opinion is the revenue. And though HoT did increase revenue temporarily it didn't raise it after the peak of the box sales was done. PoF did actually raise the regular revenue after the box sale peak was done. And as such PoF was a lot more successful than HoT.

 

People did initially buy HoT but a lot of people were turned off by it. So the other person was right in saying that HoT wasn't that successful. Mind you, I do think it added a lot to the game but it wasn't casual friendly at all. And PoF was much more casual friendly and much more successful. The revenue numbers show it because after the initial peak of the PoF sales the quarterly revenue was higher than before that peak, something that HoT didn't achieve.

 

As for not getting any expansions after, that has more to do with ArenaNet themselves. It's clear from interviews that ArenaNet doesn't really like to do expansions. And after PoF gave them the success they needed they started all types of new initiatives for other games and put GW2 on a LS schedule. This backfired for them. GW2 revenue is now lower than ever but last year also NcSoft cut their staff by 35% and cancelled some of these new initiatives. Now we get Sagas as a sort of LS+ chapters because they hope this will be enough because they still don't really want to do an expansion. They won't until NcSoft tells em again to do it and NcSoft may get to a point if revenue stays down that they will. In the meantime ArenaNet seems to be trying anything they can possibly think of to avoid making an expansion. I think it's a mistake but then for all we know they're working on a mobile game (cause they are working on something) and hope that will be their new cash cow and then they keep GW2 going as is cause it won't be their main product anymore.

 

But don't make the assumption that we didn't have another expansion because PoF failed to deliver. We didn't get another because it DID deliver and they thought they could put their attention elsewhere. The revenue numbers show the success and interviews and the NcSoft intervention cutting staff by 35% and shutting down some ArenaNet projects are the reasons I say this.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > have you ever met zhaitan? the creature they built up during most of the game? do you remember how bad it was?

> > > we had a ELDER DRAGON, who forgot about her CLAWS. she forgot about GRAVITY. but she can still TELEPORT TROOPS ONTO A FLYING AIRSHIP.

> > > all she had to do was to fly ON TOP of the airship and scratch a little. but no, lets use the difficult solution, that doesnt work any way.

> > > and that is after the 3 last horrible zones. its a little miracle, that so many could get through it at all.

> > > i did it twice. and considering how many times i had to rezz the others, i am far from the bottom of the barrel too

> > > and people who want to support the core game, dont GET more core game either. all you want is other players to pay for YOUR entertainment.

> > > the expansions are totally different from the core game.

> >

> > Most accounts didn't even reach those 3 "horrible zones", they stopped much earlier.

>

> even the mighty wow only had 10 % of the players go past lvl 20. and that was at its prime. only 5% ever reached max level.

> such is the nature of the mmo business. and when they went F2P they opened the gates for a ton of alts and mules, they will make it

> almost impossible to use account metrics anymore.

 

That doesn't change the fact that a lot of the players stopped before those "horrible" 3 zones, meaning they found something they didn't like much earlier. You keep saying that the expansions are horrible, yet the expansions are superior to the core game for quite a lot of players. There are some that would still prefer the core game over the expansions, but that begs the question what they are doing in the game, Heart of Thorns was released in 2015, it's 2020, expecting the game to "go back to core" is unreasonable and all it would do is force the existing players to leave the game.

 

And further, Season 1 and Season 2 both had content beyond the core game, Dry Top and Silverwastes make Orr look like a joke, so it still begs the question what are these types of players still doing in the game.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> Nowadays, it's not like the Core game is without restrictions (sans the very few that might find a Serial Key for the original release). If players like what they see (or want Mounts or Gliding or Elite Specs), they will likely purchase the expansion(s) long before Orr or Zhaitan.

>

> Also, what's wrong with Orr?

 

1: its ugly.

2: filled with annoying, sounds

3:no hearts

4:im pretty sure, that it kicked my dog AND ruined my childhood

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Ha. One person's **opinion**.

 

If you can't handle Orr, no wonder you don't like the expansions.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > > have you ever met zhaitan? the creature they built up during most of the game? do you remember how bad it was?

> > > > we had a ELDER DRAGON, who forgot about her CLAWS. she forgot about GRAVITY. but she can still TELEPORT TROOPS ONTO A FLYING AIRSHIP.

> > > > all she had to do was to fly ON TOP of the airship and scratch a little. but no, lets use the difficult solution, that doesnt work any way.

> > > > and that is after the 3 last horrible zones. its a little miracle, that so many could get through it at all.

> > > > i did it twice. and considering how many times i had to rezz the others, i am far from the bottom of the barrel too

> > > > and people who want to support the core game, dont GET more core game either. all you want is other players to pay for YOUR entertainment.

> > > > the expansions are totally different from the core game.

> > >

> > > Most accounts didn't even reach those 3 "horrible zones", they stopped much earlier.

> >

> > even the mighty wow only had 10 % of the players go past lvl 20. and that was at its prime. only 5% ever reached max level.

> > such is the nature of the mmo business. and when they went F2P they opened the gates for a ton of alts and mules, they will make it

> > almost impossible to use account metrics anymore.

>

> That doesn't change the fact that a lot of the players stopped before those "horrible" 3 zones, meaning they found something they didn't like much earlier. You keep saying that the expansions are horrible, yet the expansions are superior to the core game for quite a lot of players. There are some that would still prefer the core game over the expansions, but that begs the question what they are doing in the game, Heart of Thorns was released in 2015, it's 2020, expecting the game to "go back to core" is unreasonable and all it would do is force the existing players to leave the game.

>

> And further, Season 1 and Season 2 both had content beyond the core game, Dry Top and Silverwastes make Orr look like a joke, so it still begs the question what are these types of players still doing in the game.

 

perhaps they arent in the game anymore, and that is why revenue is dropping? just guessing here....

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > > @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > > > > have you ever met zhaitan? the creature they built up during most of the game? do you remember how bad it was?

> > > > > we had a ELDER DRAGON, who forgot about her CLAWS. she forgot about GRAVITY. but she can still TELEPORT TROOPS ONTO A FLYING AIRSHIP.

> > > > > all she had to do was to fly ON TOP of the airship and scratch a little. but no, lets use the difficult solution, that doesnt work any way.

> > > > > and that is after the 3 last horrible zones. its a little miracle, that so many could get through it at all.

> > > > > i did it twice. and considering how many times i had to rezz the others, i am far from the bottom of the barrel too

> > > > > and people who want to support the core game, dont GET more core game either. all you want is other players to pay for YOUR entertainment.

> > > > > the expansions are totally different from the core game.

> > > >

> > > > Most accounts didn't even reach those 3 "horrible zones", they stopped much earlier.

> > >

> > > even the mighty wow only had 10 % of the players go past lvl 20. and that was at its prime. only 5% ever reached max level.

> > > such is the nature of the mmo business. and when they went F2P they opened the gates for a ton of alts and mules, they will make it

> > > almost impossible to use account metrics anymore.

> >

> > That doesn't change the fact that a lot of the players stopped before those "horrible" 3 zones, meaning they found something they didn't like much earlier. You keep saying that the expansions are horrible, yet the expansions are superior to the core game for quite a lot of players. There are some that would still prefer the core game over the expansions, but that begs the question what they are doing in the game, Heart of Thorns was released in 2015, it's 2020, expecting the game to "go back to core" is unreasonable and all it would do is force the existing players to leave the game.

> >

> > And further, Season 1 and Season 2 both had content beyond the core game, Dry Top and Silverwastes make Orr look like a joke, so it still begs the question what are these types of players still doing in the game.

>

> perhaps they arent in the game anymore, and that is why revenue is dropping? just guessing here....

 

The revenue was dropping much faster during the first year though. Maybe if they didn't make the expansions the game would be dead by now.

[Lilyanna.9361]

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> Remove the Meta events and the over hard expansions and the game would shine for new players..

 

And then the game would be die because only the new players would be entertained and this game would have a lower player retainment rate. Wonderful I say.

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > Nowadays, it's not like the Core game is without restrictions (sans the very few that might find a Serial Key for the original release). If players like what they see (or want Mounts or Gliding or Elite Specs), they will likely purchase the expansion(s) long before Orr or Zhaitan.

> >

> > Also, what's wrong with Orr?

>

> 1: its ugly.

> 2: filled with annoying, sounds

> 3:no hearts

> 4:im pretty sure, that it kicked my dog AND ruined my childhood

 

I used to hate Orr on launch (mostly because of the undead-wasteland theme), but nowadays they're my favorite core maps.

 

1: I can kind of agree, but I've just learned to appreciate the weird mix of colors, almost like an oil spill.

2: Never noticed

3: This is one of the main reasons I LOVE the maps, I mean seriously kitten hearts! I think all my favorite maps these days are anything without hearts (Tangled Depts excepted).

4: Another reason why Orr maps are my favorite cor maps, are because the monsters actually try to fight back, later maps are better for this, but Orr are about the only Core maps where you can actually die to mobs if you don't pay attention.

 

So, people are different, and got different opinions and tastes, the sun continues to rise each morning.