BlackTruth.6813

So getting rid of the F!, now Berserker skill cap effectively lowered because I can't just stow NORMAL eviscerate with weapon cancel > bait a dodge > pop berserker mode > chop a few times bait more dodges > and then Primal F1 eviscerate.

And if they actually nerfed primalEviscerate into that, LOL that's so bad.

And ofc, ANET enforcing the meta and pidgeon holing Warrior into GS more instead of more ways to combinations and more ways to have fun.

Eternal champion losing stability too, zzz. Really dumb, it was one of the only reasons to play Eviscerate as well.

And obviously, ANET doing their own thing is just zzz. Not much you can do. Literally, Good. Job. ANET.

P.S Even if someone figures out a way to make arcing slice OP., it's still boring garbage. Literally stupid change, because it's braindead gameplay assuming that it "is" viable. It's not a better, more balanced change than baseline fast hands ever will be.

So basically now I can't feint with weapon switch NORMAL F1 eviscerate > bait dodge > Pop berserker > Make use of the quickness with chop > force/bait dodge > Primal Eviscerate for example.

Basically they lowered Berserker skill cap and limited gameplay. AND pidgeonholed into GS

Good. Job. ANET.

Like seriously, lets say that someone figures out a way to make GS berserker viable? It's still boring crap and it's borderline just pidgeonholed into GS. It will NEVER be a better change than baseline fast hands ever will be.

Old Berserker + baseline fast hands would actually be BALANCED and ACTUALLY fun and still challenging. This fix is lazy and somewhat low IQ.

Make the game actually fun... well tbh that's too late. Pre-HoT 2015 isn't coming back probably.

Well at least we all agree that it needs to be changed..

If you're killing people with signet of rage, you will kill people harder with rampage anyways.

Quickness is an easy fix but there probably is a better one.

Instant cast and evade spamming while attacking are the roots of many problems in all honesty.

For example? Warrior wouldn't need automatic endure pain or balanced stance or 90 second rampage if crap like this wasn't obnoxious to deal with. Bigger evil is always Mesmer though cause at least Thief can't manfight vs. cleave damage. A lot of passive traits would not be necessary if instant cast layering wasn't such BS.

Thief manages to actually be balanced because they can't just LAYER evades when their frame is about to end, and has really low HP.

The fact that people are complaining about Mirage still just proves that evade spam while being able to layer it with something is a problem.

There will always be people defending it because they're unskilled garbage is the sad reality as well. It literally isn't skill shotting with 1200 range greandes after slick shoes nerf back in the day, it really isn't more skillbased than that.

Signet activation becomes instant cast OR keep the casting time the same but lower the CD to 40 seconds. Okay you can say just use Frenzy, but what if I don't want to or can't? What if I want to stack Quickness at a real trade-off? I doubt it would be stronger than 72/90 second rampage anyways when boonstrip/corruption can troll this version hard. So maybe it has to be pulsing quickness then lol..

Might be a good start to make this Signet ACTUALLY good and more active instead of making it a PvE signet.

Thoughts?

Also, I'm bored of Rampage.

EDIT: Obviously the Quickness better be at Frenzy duration. 7 seconds. But Swiftness at 25 seconds duration.

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > if you really believe that on weapon swap trait serious, then i don't know

> > > the bait was beyond obvious, and even then it wasn't even a complete lie

> >

> -major tier 3: vigorous shouts has been reworked to "go for the eyes!" allies affected by your shouts (regular shouts or lesser variants) will now do increased critical hit damage on their next attack and inflict blind for 3 seconds (duration to apply both blind/critical hit damage lasts for 3 seconds aswell) (+15% increased critical hit damage) aditionally shouts still gain their 20% reduced cooldowns and will still heal allies affected by them. the "inflict blind will have an internal cooldown of 10 seconds to avoid blind spamming

>

This is potentially catastrophic. Blind spam is stupid, I don't know how you can't call this powercreep when there will be no point in slow builds.

10 Seconds of internal cool down but potentially able to affect 5 people is still blind spam plus it heals? Burst should counter shouts, but then blind spam potentially makes it harder.

Basically making high casting time builds pointless IS a form of powercreep that is evil.

Also shake it off with 3 charges lol... the game needs LESS stun breaks, not more. Also... sanctuary runes going to be disgusting if shouts get 3 charges.

Tactics can be actually aids if not careful.

Hmm... sounds like a fair trade-off (maybe Less evasion time faster animation) so you can connect it with something immediately if I'm hearing this right

It sucks cause you pause for a bit so it can attack people from behind. This might actually be an okay push and maybe rifle won't need anything else after.

Don't forget that GS is all purpose (mobility CC, evade spam, BURST DAMAGE) "high skill cap" ranger build atm

Could even trait double signet of stone (god forbid with all that evade spam with GS auto cancel)

Literally ranger hardest class in the game, automatic pet dodge bait + unblockables

If I go shake it off, berserker stance just to counter obnoxious garbage, then I will not have enough space for an unblockable/burst mitigation (endure pain)/bull's charge

Speccing vs. condis is stupid when you can legit die to power damage nowadays. You spec full condi counter? You're dead to power meta. Because I don't have "high skill cap" distortions like Mesmer, I WILL have trade-offs.

Also, I don't understand how Mesmers have trouble vs. Warrior in 2019, it's disgusting. You have z-axis teleports to reset the fight, you have stealth to reset the fight, you spam evades while attacking if you build it right, you have blind spam that forces Warrior to bring berserker stance (and lose a slot vs. burst damage).

And guess what? Mesmer doesn't need to stand on point everytime to win the game with the team. Let go off the point so you can conserve your dodges better.

Literally what more do you want? You legit have tools to fight Warrior and you are complaining. It makes ZERO sense.

Yes Rampage is stupid, sure. But Mesmer can counter that. Mesmer out of ALL the classes should not be complaining about Rampage when you can blind spam z-axis teleport. Literally if you can't counter Rampage as Mesmer (on ANY elite spec), YOU are the one who has problems.

Yes Reckless dodge can be stupid, but Mesmer does the same garbage and even worse (spamming evades with phantasms, instant cast shatters, z-axis teleport literally your dodges are uncountable if you play it right, Warrior even with the endurance on might trait is countable).

Warrior has horizontal mobility, Mesmer has z-axis teleport. Z-axis teleports ALWAYS > horizontal mobility because when after Whirlwind Attack/Shield Block is down? I'm not evading anymore while disengaging.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > Okay, give me an example, lets be productive for once. How do you make Arms attractive then?

>

> ill take this challenge if we can call a truce for a bit.

> furious burst - reduce cd to 10s.

> opportunist - gain 10 adren when gaining fury.

> deep strikes - gain 10% damage and condition damage when you have fury.

> burst precision - gain 50% increased critical hit chance for bursts and for 5s after a burst (regardless of it landing or not).

>

> the burst precision change is kind of lazy but I cant think of any other way of buffing it without changing it altogether. maybe have it so bursts always crit and recharge 50% faster if they fail to hit (basically a buffed versatile power tho so idk).

>

-Opporunist is just so bad compared to signet mastery you would have to do something drastic, the unblockable is too strong.

-Burst precision - The first idea is going to kill eviscerate/gunflame builds, it's not going to work... don't change it. Would be much better if it stayed as is. 50% crit chance for burst skills AFTER burst is really bad. **Your 2nd idea might be okay,** but then you make Eviscerate/Gunflame near god tier and is ACTUALLY powercreep in a way. Gunflame and Eviscerate are borderline viable and is actually in an okay spot right now. If your 2nd idea is implemented, then Arms simply replaces Strength and is potentially a lot stronger.

-I was thinking of buffing deep strikes as well to 10% condition/10% power damage, but **then it just replaces Strength if I go this route.** Over time, the unblockable became so much more valuable to me (and CAN be more valuable than reckless dodge, reduced rampage) if played right.

-Furious Burst - should've been 5 seconds ICD from the beginning

I don't know what to feel tbh, if you just buff Arms or Tactics, then it simply replaces Strength in the current meta.

Tbh I need to just change the question to.. **how do you incentivize a 9 second weapon swap build at this point.** But it's kinda dumb because this requires an EVEN MORE potentially evil route (Giving Warrior an F2, attack speed increase, instant cast, some stupid garbage that will actually have great potential of ruining the game). This is why it's actually hard to discard fast hands baseline because every other route is LEGIT catastrophic.

People are going to get bored eventually if it's just replacing one trait and not replacing into 3 other combinations.

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > It says decapitate + axe wave on a the SAME downed target, and even then I'm skeptical because the target gets hit TWICE if it is downed. But if the target isn't downed then decapitate + axe wave doesn't happen on the SAME target. So I'm thinking the latter is intended but axe wave + decapitate on a downed target might POSSIBLY be a bug.

> >

> >

>

> You are laying down so are now "longer"

That's how it works o.o?

Dam... so good chance it is intended?

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Holosmith's damage out put by itself is not problematic.

>

> This is so incredibly short-sighted its like you have no imagination at all! You could easily nerf Holo sustain by ANY measure you want by adjusting Heat Therapy, increasing heat gains, nerfing Vent Exhaust. Trust me, there are vast ways to nerf a spec's offensive/defensive utility, damage, or sustain just by changing the elite spec's abilities and traits. This is a super absurd notion to be honest. You could nerf Heat therapy from anywhere between 30-90% to whatever balance goal your heart desires, and it'd just be a simple number change.

>

> > At the end of the day what happens to builds that are relevant with lots of people playing are relevant. What happens to builds that are irrelevant with next to no one playing are irrelevant.

>

> I already addressed this, and you're just repeating yourself. The point is that you CAN properly nerf a spec properly just by creatively tweaking the elite spec (more creativity than you or ArenaNet possesses at this time), so instead of justifying nerfing with a broad brush as only nerfing 'irrelevant builds, so who cares', just very easily do it right way that will bring the game closer to horizontal progression instead of vertical. Now you made me repeat myself, stop it. :lol:

>

> > Your philosophy on balance, for engineer to be made up of 33% core, 33% scrapper 33% holo in terms of usage and performance is an impossible pipe dream

>

> Don't try to make up a dumb idea, call it my balance philosophy and then attack it. Lol, that's absurd. I don't want equal outcome for every spec. This isn't affirmative action 101. This is keeping in line with ARENANET's philosophy where elite specs are not vertical progression, it's an anti-p2w philosophy that practically everyone in the entire game agrees with.

>

> I don't expect equal representation between core and elite specs. But they should be closer to kitten good alternatives instead of further.

>

>

Though I am curious, what is your idea for core engi? Feels like the hardest one to execute out of all classes.

It says decapitate + axe wave on a the SAME downed target, and even then I'm skeptical because the target gets hit TWICE if it is downed. But if the target isn't downed then decapitate + axe wave doesn't happen on the SAME target. So I'm thinking the latter is intended but axe wave + decapitate on a downed target might POSSIBLY be a bug.

> @"Edge.8724" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > Well if you are downed, decapitate hits twice as shown by the GIF

> >

> > No blood reckoning, I promise. Try it out with a friend too, It's actually working like this. Not just a combat log thing.

> >

> > https://i.gyazo.com/ff4ccf8f1e57d82dc355b807c4f293d7.mp4

> >

> > Please tell me if you can replicate on real players, I'm 100% sure I've done this to other players as well. I could stream a full game too when I stop lagging like in the GIF.

>

> Isn't this happening because of the shockwave the skill produces? If so, then it's normal.

> @"Edge.8724" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > Well if you are downed, decapitate hits twice as shown by the GIF

> >

> > No blood reckoning, I promise. Try it out with a friend too, It's actually working like this. Not just a combat log thing.

> >

> > https://i.gyazo.com/ff4ccf8f1e57d82dc355b807c4f293d7.mp4

> >

> > Please tell me if you can replicate on real players, I'm 100% sure I've done this to other players as well. I could stream a full game too when I stop lagging like in the GIF.

>

> Isn't this happening because of the shockwave the skill produces? If so, then it's normal.

> @"Edge.8724" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > Well if you are downed, decapitate hits twice as shown by the GIF

> >

> > No blood reckoning, I promise. Try it out with a friend too, It's actually working like this. Not just a combat log thing.

> >

> > https://i.gyazo.com/ff4ccf8f1e57d82dc355b807c4f293d7.mp4

> >

> > Please tell me if you can replicate on real players, I'm 100% sure I've done this to other players as well. I could stream a full game too when I stop lagging like in the GIF.

>

> Isn't this happening because of the shockwave the skill produces? If so, then it's normal.

I would hope so.. but other people might say it's a bug.

The shockwave functioning like this would give decapitate and arms a legitimate purpose tbh..

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > Even if other classes get nerfed at the same time, this should probably ONLY get shaved.

> > > I would like if it was like other stolen skills, i.e. something you actually have to think about. Maybe something with aoe damage for killing clones (just an example).

> > > > Mesmer should have the ability to not get caught by steal even though steal is instant cast

> > > What do you mean?

> > > > (Like seriously, people actually think Thief still counters Mesmer in 2019? You can actually catch Thieves with instant cast as well).

> > > >

> > > > They BETTER be rewarded if they land steal on an evade spam instant cast class. You take this away from Thief? You better compensate them with something.

> > > This means that mesmer *punished* for something which is inherently chance-based and impossible to consistently predict unless you can read minds. It really tells us alot about how much of gw2 is based around kitten. When a class relies on hitting an instant 1200 range skill and it is still very possible to miss due to the defense spam. Imagine this in any other game. And yes I would love it if thief was less of a onetrick based on traiting steal as much as possible, I think that would be more fun both for the thief player and the opponent.

> > > >

> > > > I don't mind having this nerfed because it potentially nerfs boonbeast plasma as well, but thief will need compensation if it does get gutted, at least for the Mesmer steal.

> > > That's the crux, if thief would only be good when there is a mesmer in the enemy team something would obviously be very wrong. Defending plasma because it is "the only thing thief has" will limit how strong thief can be in the general case because as soon as it is strong in one situation (vs no mes) it would become *too* strong in the other situation (vs mes). It is the same reason why you shouldn't keep OP traits/skills that "carry" a class because it means that the class becomes useless when it doesn't use that particular overpowered thing.

> > > >

> > > > And just because people "think" it's an edge, doesn't mean it's THAT bad in design. Literally there are worse things in the game (endurance on might gain, high skill cap pet + evade spam, evade spam + z-axis teleports + instant cast).

> > > There are other bad things in the game, which there are other threads for.

> >

> > Well assuming that they nerf plasma, it's w/e it will probably feel like a shave. But here's the catch, I REALLY doubt thief is "only strong" even when the enemy team has a mesmer because nowadays you could also shatter at the end of thief dodges if you build + play it right. Literally Thief CAN'T layer invulns (Like when S/D's dodge frame ends, most of the time Thief can't just pop an endure pain or distortion or w/e invuln) like Mesmer does. They can be hard even if the other team has a Mesmer, plasma by itself doesn't allow Thief to 1v9, there are better 1v9 mechanics in all honesty...

> >

> > Plasma can go and it probably won't change much, but what compensation could Thief get I wonder.

>

> they have already nerfed plasma. get educated on the topic then post about it

LOL, 4 seconds protection and 2 seconds stability and it has a thread about it x.x?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Plasma_(Plasma)

That actually looks bad lmao

Okay that means they can't touch it at all.. but probably just remove it from boonbeast then.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > Even if other classes get nerfed at the same time, this should probably ONLY get shaved.

> I would like if it was like other stolen skills, i.e. something you actually have to think about. Maybe something with aoe damage for killing clones (just an example).

> > Mesmer should have the ability to not get caught by steal even though steal is instant cast

> What do you mean?

> > (Like seriously, people actually think Thief still counters Mesmer in 2019? You can actually catch Thieves with instant cast as well).

> >

> > They BETTER be rewarded if they land steal on an evade spam instant cast class. You take this away from Thief? You better compensate them with something.

> This means that mesmer *punished* for something which is inherently chance-based and impossible to consistently predict unless you can read minds. It really tells us alot about how much of gw2 is based around kitten. When a class relies on hitting an instant 1200 range skill and it is still very possible to miss due to the defense spam. Imagine this in any other game. And yes I would love it if thief was less of a onetrick based on traiting steal as much as possible, I think that would be more fun both for the thief player and the opponent.

> >

> > I don't mind having this nerfed because it potentially nerfs boonbeast plasma as well, but thief will need compensation if it does get gutted, at least for the Mesmer steal.

> That's the crux, if thief would only be good when there is a mesmer in the enemy team something would obviously be very wrong. Defending plasma because it is "the only thing thief has" will limit how strong thief can be in the general case because as soon as it is strong in one situation (vs no mes) it would become *too* strong in the other situation (vs mes). It is the same reason why you shouldn't keep OP traits/skills that "carry" a class because it means that the class becomes useless when it doesn't use that particular overpowered thing.

> >

> > And just because people "think" it's an edge, doesn't mean it's THAT bad in design. Literally there are worse things in the game (endurance on might gain, high skill cap pet + evade spam, evade spam + z-axis teleports + instant cast).

> There are other bad things in the game, which there are other threads for.

Well assuming that they nerf plasma, it's w/e it will probably feel like a shave. But here's the catch, I REALLY doubt thief is "only strong" even when the enemy team has a mesmer because nowadays you could also shatter at the end of thief dodges if you build + play it right. Literally Thief CAN'T layer invulns (Like when S/D's dodge frame ends, most of the time Thief can't just pop an endure pain or distortion or w/e invuln) like Mesmer does. They can be hard even if the other team has a Mesmer, plasma by itself doesn't allow Thief to 1v9, there are better 1v9 mechanics in all honesty...

Plasma can go and it probably won't change much, but what compensation could Thief get I wonder.

Well if you are downed, decapitate hits twice as shown by the GIF

No blood reckoning, I promise. Try it out with a friend too, It's actually working like this. Not just a combat log thing.

https://i.gyazo.com/ff4ccf8f1e57d82dc355b807c4f293d7.mp4

Please tell me if you can replicate on real players, I'm 100% sure I've done this to other players as well. I could stream a full game too when I stop lagging like in the GIF.

Even if other classes get nerfed at the same time, this should probably ONLY get shaved. Mesmer should have the ability to not get caught by steal even though steal is instant cast (Like seriously, people actually think Thief still counters Mesmer in 2019? You can actually catch Thieves with instant cast as well).

They BETTER be rewarded if they land steal on an evade spam instant cast class. You take this away from Thief? You better compensate them with something.

I don't mind having this nerfed because it potentially nerfs boonbeast plasma as well, but thief will need compensation if it does get gutted, at least for the Mesmer steal.

And just because people "think" it's an edge, doesn't mean it's THAT bad in design. Literally there are worse things in the game (endurance on might gain, high skill cap pet + evade spam, evade spam + z-axis teleports + instant cast)

The plasma steal doesn't compare to ANY of the evils that I mentioned because at least that can get corrupted and doesn't really make one of the lowest HP pool that has legitimate openings in their evades tanky enough vs. cleave damage in team fights for example.

Sounds like it.. they did the same for the blinds too back in the day (was a stupid change though). But w/e, it looks like it has been there for a while. May as well enjoy it now while it lasts.

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> The n = 1 case doesn't not prove that Anet doesn't do what they want, how they want it. The history is there that suggests Anet will fix traits in traitlines to maintain the idea that players make choices for how they want to play by choosing traits.

>

> Again, we don't agree on what's right here, so do not appeal to the idea that what you believe is on the side of 'correctness' to imply everyone that doesn't agree wtih you is wrong.

Be that is it may that I'm a jerk to most people, but if I can say something that might sway ANET into doing something right for once, then I'll do it. And even if my whole idea isn't implemented but ANET does something right, then I'm all for it.

I would prefer to not have instant cast, pets, z-axis teleports added on Warrior either is one of my premises as well.

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > > ANET CAN do something right for once, I am prepared for things like Reckless dodge, bull's charge, and rampage NERFED TO BALANCE. There is moderation that can be accomplished.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I love how FH baseline is THE answer ... as long as all this other stuff gets nerfed too.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If Anet has to make ALL these kinds of changes to make FH baseline ... then seems to me that it's actually easier to just buff the non-Discipline lines after all, preserving meaningful choices in Discipline at the same time.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Okay, give me an example, lets be productive for once. How do you make Arms attractive then?

> > > > >

> > > > > Certainly not by giving me access to FH ... I mean, arms is condi theme ... so buff it's condi stuff. Or give more weapons condi love. I mean, what's the point of this question? if I'm choosing Arms, I could give a RATS BEHIND about getting 5 second swapping.

> > > >

> > > > Actually Arms was originally a crit strikes tree as well.

> > > >

> > > > The unblockable trait already works with power builds, and the 100% burst on crit is actually nice to make Eviscerate and Gunflame "borderline" viable.

> > > >

> > > > Making it full condition when berserker is better for that feels moot.

> > >

> > > OK whathever ... then give me crit love. I don't care. My point still stands. If you want to improve a traitline, you buff the stuff that traitline is about, not hand me effects I can't take advantage of.

> >

> > Well.. it's much harder to make specific traitlines attractive by themselves. And if we do that, then discipline builds might become stronger when you swap out STR for Arms for example. That's another thing, so really it's hard for me to discard baseline FH because then we end up buffing the already decent existing discipline builds that don't need to be touched.

> >

> > This is why it is very hard to discard baseline FH, is because buffing other traitlines and keeping things as is might incur more powercreep that is actually bad.

>

> And yet, Anet does that all the time ... so that argument, while maybe is true, doesn't really match the reality of how the game is changed. Again, do not impose your own ideas about how things work onto Anet. They do their own thing. The BEST we can do is illustrate a problem that exists; they will decide how to fix it.

But reality does change when it can, because ANET has been doing smart things so far (mirage dodge down to 0.75 seconds, etc)

Title.

I know it's a bug but.. maybe it if stays that way it will have a niche. Thoughts?

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't need to find an alternative (and it seems no one i this thread on either side tries to find one too). I don't see base line Fast Hands as a solution. I see a far to strong Discipline tree which needs rework though.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On the contrary, I think base line Fast Hands and the utility it brings would cause severe nerfs to warrior on many levels. Something most people are willfully ignoring here.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > You realize that other classes work without Fast Hands because they have instant casts, pets, phantasms, and burst mitigation for team mates right? Warrior doesn't need any of that, OTHER CLASSES can have it for an identity. Warrior's identity is fine as is (A class that relies on stow weapon or weapon swap fake-outs for a high skill cap, no instant cast, no pets, etc [just being an honest class with no pet or instant cast garbage])

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Every single class would benefit from Fast Hands, thiefs and revenant even more than warriors. So no, this is again wild speculation and no argument on the warriors side.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > We didn't "simply demand it" we SUGGESTED it before ANET does their own thing. And when ANET does their own thing that no one asked for? That's a lot worse.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have no problem with suggestions. I do have a problem with this religious zealous near fanatical defense of a suggestion without considering that focusing on other approaches would be far more productive and more likely than this change.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > Literally, you're almost tolerable but you can't think of a specific idea that would make your premise work. You would legit have to give Warrior instant cast or some stupid kitten. And you at least agreed to me that your route could be A LOT MORE EVIL, but I want to hear a "specific alternative" that isn't broken or useless because MAYBE, just MAYBE you are truly better than any of the other guys who counter-argued against it but failed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I agreed that any change could be far worse. I also said that changing 1 of 9 classes on a fundamental level would cause even greater issues. Look at how Mirage and its unique dodge causes problems (and it;s an elite specialization). That's the type of change you are in for balance wise. I seriously doubt Arenanet is even going to go remotely in that direction, at most with an elite specialization and even that is a very big IF.

> > > > >

> > > > > 1.) YOU CANNOT nerf discipline right now.

> > > >

> > > > You know what is funny ... I've seen Anet nerf things that cannot be nerfed right now LOTS of times. So maybe you don't understand how they function. Maybe you shouldn't impose your own ideas of how the game works onto the people that develop it. Absolutely nothing stops Anet from nerfing anything they want, especially if people are going to argue that Discipline is SO good that it degrades the choice of other traitlines.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > There is a small chance, (maybe it's good right now after the mass layoffs) that ANET will do something right. We can mourn AFTER they do something stupid.

> >

> > Maybe ... but don't sit there and pretend there is some rulebook they play by that adheres to your sense of what they can and can't do. Anet is definitely not going to do more work than they have to to fix a problem ... **and if that problem is Discipline is too much of a go-to traitline, it's going to see nerfed,** even if every player thinks it shouldn't.

>

> Funny enough that's exactly what I said in the last thread about base line Fast Hands:

>

> If people keep talking about how strong Discipline is and how Fast Hands needs to be base line for other trait lines to become viable, Arenanet is simply going to nerf Discipline. Interesting enough, the thread went quite after that. I've tried to explain this issue here, but some how people are very focused on making sure that even the last developer at Arenanet realizes: Discipline is very strong, nerf it... I mean give us base line Fast Hands.

>

> I really enjoy playing my warrior. I'm fine with shelving it for a while though once Arenanet responds.

Again, there is a small chance that ANET will do something right for once. It will be TOO LATE, but there is a chance (because of mass layoffs. Less people in the company = it's easier to change things around to something more favorable)

We should only complain when they do something stupid but so far.. I want to say ANET has improved. That's why I'm not so paranoid just yet.

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > ANET CAN do something right for once, I am prepared for things like Reckless dodge, bull's charge, and rampage NERFED TO BALANCE. There is moderation that can be accomplished.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I love how FH baseline is THE answer ... as long as all this other stuff gets nerfed too.

> > > > >

> > > > > If Anet has to make ALL these kinds of changes to make FH baseline ... then seems to me that it's actually easier to just buff the non-Discipline lines after all, preserving meaningful choices in Discipline at the same time.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Okay, give me an example, lets be productive for once. How do you make Arms attractive then?

> > >

> > > Certainly not by giving me access to FH ... I mean, arms is condi theme ... so buff it's condi stuff. Or give more weapons condi love. I mean, what's the point of this question? if I'm choosing Arms, I could give a RATS BEHIND about getting 5 second swapping.

> >

> > Actually Arms was originally a crit strikes tree as well.

> >

> > The unblockable trait already works with power builds, and the 100% burst on crit is actually nice to make Eviscerate and Gunflame "borderline" viable.

> >

> > Making it full condition when berserker is better for that feels moot.

>

> OK whathever ... then give me crit love. I don't care. My point still stands. If you want to improve a traitline, you buff the stuff that traitline is about, not hand me effects I can't take advantage of.

Well.. it's much harder to make specific traitlines attractive by themselves. And if we do that, then discipline builds might become stronger when you swap out STR for Arms for example. That's another thing, so really it's hard for me to discard baseline FH because then we end up buffing the already decent existing discipline builds that don't need to be touched.

This is why it is very hard to discard baseline FH, is because buffing other traitlines and keeping things as is might incur more powercreep that is actually bad.