BlackTruth.6813

^Because whirling axe timed correctly is actually insane (at least on point in sPvP). The only problem is no one knows how to deal with retal on whirling axe (there IS a synergy that allows it to ignore retal completely). The reason why no one uses whirling axe is simply because.. people underestimate it. It does have counters but once somebody figures out how to use it in sPvP I wont defend it.

Call me biased, sure. I can see it. But I try to not be biased at the least

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> Speaking of warrior;

> 'One Shot Warrior | GW2 | Core Warrior | WvW' by Special Snowflake

>

>

>

I won't defend whirling axe actually (though I don't know if a nerf is actually fair when there ARE counterarguments against nerfing it right now), but the people he's fighting zzz and it's open field too. I can understand if it's sPvP but zzz the people he's fighting is just residentsleeper

He does that build in sPvP he will die to retal. But that isn't it's final form. There IS a way to deal with retal but that isn't exactly the specific build that people should complain about. Here's to hoping nobody catches up to it yet.

Again **I WON'T DEFEND WHIRLING AXE** at it's current state once somebody figures out a way to deal with retal and makes it meta (Because I'm not one of those biased ranger/mesmer mains)

I like how people are still defending soulbeast or ranger, do you legit not see the advantage soulbeast has? Be it competitive or new, it is a braindead spec no matter how you spec it tanky or burst, do you know why? You can literally bait dodges with yourself and with your pet, 2 factors baiting dodges at the same time. How is that L2P?

Be it as it may that "berserker soulbeast" gets trolled in high level play, but it is still has EVIL written all over it. Literally an anti-fun class since the beginning of the game. I mean these mechanics legit has EVIL written on the build that "works at top play" be it tanky or zerker (automatic pet, 2 things baiting out dodges and defenses at once).

Maul being at a 4 second cd doesn't really help either cause literally you don't even have to stow it, you just INEVITABLY bait a dodge with it and then when the guy runs out of dodges? Just go for the stun. Bonus if your pet stuns him and the next maul REALLY baits out something significant or even better, flat out kills him.

Doesn't help that the ranger already spams evades, blocks (GS auto-cancel, GS 3, GS 4) while the the pet baits dodges and cds out.

Literally Ranger as a class is just mechanically braindead, EVER SINCE LAUNCH and people want to dodge the mechanical arguments? FFS.

Like honestly, maybe increase the pet RNG knockdowns to 120 seconds. It's already automatic garbage, and pet auto attack itself can already be disgusting if you spec it right. Make the power from the RANGER itself, not with the automatic garbage. Complex blueprints in making a class =/= hard class, sigh.

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > From a PvP perspective:

> >

> > Warrior runes are clunky, you lose out Rune of the Lynx for mobility (If you're not going to use Warrior Sprint, which I'm okay not being baseline but I'm not okay losing mobility as a Melee class with high casting times) if you want to make.a legitimate build. Losing mobility means people are just going to run in a straight line and avoid EVERYTHING you do. Not having mobility is brutal on Warrior dude, it's not THAT easy to play it vs. actual players.

> >

> > And don't say use Signet of Rage, there is no point in picking that over Rampage.

> >

> > It would be easier to just make Fast Hands baseline and then replace it with a non-broken trait on discipline. NOBODY is asking for a potentially catastrophic buff, were trying to increase build diversity and trait combinations in the LEAST catastrophic way as possible.

>

> A wild **Ulterior Motive** appeared!

> ~~~ 'Obtena, I choose you!'

>

> Dada-daaa, dada-daaaaa ... ~~~

>

> You clearly got a very specific expectation how a Warrior - or at least a good build - should play.

> * It should have fast weapon swapping

> * It should have high mobility

> * It should possibly not include Discipline

> * The only sacrifice you are willing to make is the Rune slot - but only for one of those 2 effects. One should be for free. Because. Period.

>

> Why is Signet of Rage such an unspeakable choice? What about Warhorn? Not your taste? Or MH Sword? Maybe GS?

> * There are two options for affecting your weapon swap

> * There are plenty options for mobility

One should be free BECAUSE it allows "fake-outs" more often AND it allows you to combo more fluidly WITHOUT the discipline trait. You shouldn't be forced to use Discipline for combo fluidity and fake-outs.

Nice strawman my friend, this is how the "non-baseline fast hands" crew argue. They deliberately misinterpret my intentions.**I'm not just trying to turn an STR ARMS DEF warrior into the new STR DEF DISC warrior, I'm trying to make the other builds tolerable as well. In the LEAST AMOUNT OF EFFORT AND LEAST CATASTROPHIC WAY** and even then those two builds DO sacrifice something even with baseline fast hands

If I were to swap out an STR DIS DEF build with an STR ARMS DEF build, I gain unblockable signet and 100% crit chance on burst, unsuspecting foe. But now I can be vulnerable to immobilize even with rune of the lynx, I lose out on heightened focus from disc tree, I lose out more adrenaline on crit with axe, I lose out destruction of the empowered, I lose out on cleanse conditions on swap. Why do I have to lose out on mind-game potential as well by having to deal with a 9 second weapon swap? At this point all baseline fast hands will do is keep Warrior gameplay consistent, nothing wrong about that. Because the weapon swap ACTUALLY makes a diff for Axes and Hammers i.e cancelling eviscerate and conserving adrenaline for example, OR hammer F1.

You are saying that I'm not willing to sacrifice anything? You're saying that Rune slots are the only thing I'm willing to sacrifice? **That is a deliberate misinterpretation and that's dishonest.**

**Legit the lack of common sense is disgusting, you actually legit think that Warrior doesn't sacrifice anything even with baseline fast hands? Learn logic** You think losing out Rune of the Scholar isn't big? Think again, that is literally one of the biggest DPS increase in sPVP.

I could even choose to do Rune of the Sanctuary too with a Tactics Berserker Defense build and just flat out hold a point. Are you trying to invalidate my point of "build variety" by not preparing for what build that I might wanna try out next? Rune of the Lynx wouldn't be the only rune that I would be using, MAYBE, just MAYBE a tactics zerker defense point holder shouts build might work without Rune of the Lynx as well.

You STILL didn't have a REAL argument against baseline fast hands. All it is, is a bunch of garbage arguments like everybody else has been making.

>This again leads me to the point. If it was about having more options (specifically regarding Weapon swapping), why aren't we actually discussing more options? If the goal is to increase diversity, the potentially smallest impact on power of a class is introducing alternatives not making stuff baseline.

>Another thing: Warrior having more melee weapons than other classes doesn't mean other classes don't have the same issues with meleeing.

Because Warrior doesn't have instant cast that they have the biggest issues out of all classes as melee? Your deflects are bad. Nothing wrong about making a Rune of the Lynx build with non-discipline baseline fast hands tolerable to play. All other classes have instant cast ways to CC the target and bait CDs, Warrior doesn't (Fear me pushes targets out of melee range, go figure). But common sense is hard, even though there is a legitimate trade-off infront of you. I'd rather have not someone like you suggest that Warrior gets instant cast or some useless trait which goes to my next point about how your arguments are bad.

More importantly, Some of your ideas are absolute garbage.

-Rousing Resillience changed into a weapon swap trait? That will NEVER be viable, why would you pick that over cleansing Ire as core, and why would you mess up shout builds that might actually work and synergize with it? Effective HP is already bad as is when there is a lot of ways to burst people nowadays.

-Arms Dual Wield changed into weapon swap recharge? You are NOT using that over the 100% burst crit chance, 100% crit chance bursts are NICE. And the 20% attack speed buff might BARELY make Mace F1 work. Maybe if a build comes out for this that we don't have to revert skull crack to it's original form. And how will we incentivize something like this? Make fast hands baseline so it is not so catastrophic.

Your ideas are even worse and is actually a nerf. NOBODY will use those traits, NOBODY. And it is actually a nerf, an undeserved nerf. **Your suggestions are legitimately catastrophically bad for builds that need a small push just to be barely viable as well**

You only have one decent idea.

>Fatal Frenzy - Fury moved to Blood Reaction. Recharge your weapon swap by 1s (1s ICD) when hitting a foe while in berserk mode.

Now this is okay, but it would be EASIER to just flat out just give Baseline fast hands so that ALL combinations will be more available to fake-outs and fluidity. Literally so much work when we could have just got rid of the fundamental problem with one small yet non-broken fix. Not just berserker.

Seriously, Next. The only argument that you really would have against baseline fast hands is unblockable + defense builds might be OP.

**TL;DR The argument that says "You're not willing to sacrifice anything" is a fail argument because assuming baseline fast hands happens? STR ARMS DEF, and STR DEF DISC are all weak and strong in their own way, and STILL HAVE actual trade-offs (for example one has unblockable signet and Lynx runes [strong against block spammers], Warrior sprint and Scholar runes [strong against classes that don't spam block], but this time both are available to fluid rotations and fake-out weapon switch F1 cancels). Do you want me to compare another build where there ARE sacrifices? Not "willing to sacrifice" anything is ignorant and lacks common sense.** Also your ideas are bad, think of better ones.

You actually CAN go by without defense but here is the catch.. if you don't use defense against good players in sPvP, you will get bursted VERY OFTEN.

I think the tree is fine. Getting a stance every 60 seconds is kinda too much to be honest, 90 seconds is good enough. But more combinations allowing defense tree to be with other trait lines should be encouraged (baseline fast hands), then we can decide on whether defense is absolute garbage or not.

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > I'll attempt to argue against myself again in hopes of REDIRECTING the thread to talk about specific builds that might be "bad powercreep."

> >

> > What about unsuspecting foe? **Could there be ANY unholy synergy with unsuspecting foe** (arms trait) assuming that baseline fast hands is implemented?

> >

> > But like god this is already a losing argument because it's ALREADY hard to stun good players on good builds. There might be a nice soldier's (PVT) build that might work again but then you need to stun somebody to be useful.

> >

> > Baseline fast hands won't be OP for unsuspecting foe PVT builds from what it looks like.

>

> Let all those experts to come up with their own builds that they think would be too strong and cause powercreep. If they discuss here, I expect them to have proper class knowledge so they can back up their arguments with it.

> I suspect they are unable to name exact examples because of lack of warrior profession knowledge.

> They only argument around "why you want this change", not around "how would this change affect warrior class and balance in game". And when you ask all those people proper question, they don't reply in detail as you asked them multiple times (just "powercreep").

> And then there is a guy who realizes that Fast Hands suddenly makes weapon swap sigils too strong and it needs nerf... facepalm.

Yeah tbh, I'm having a hard time finding a broken build with baseline fast hands non-discipline. Like were not really going to touch the already strong discipline specs by replacing discipline fast hands with a broken passive. And I could probably argue their side better than they can argue "no baseline fast hands because it is powercreep"

Also, the "entitled argument" that says "someone who wants something for free" is actually bad as well. Nothing is "entitled" about providing arguments on how ANET can make Warrior changes that isn't a straight buff. People calling this baseline fast hands an "entitled" thing to do, project a greater evil actually (borderline censorship with garbage arguments).

Baseline fast hands and replacing it with a trait that is so insignificant will create more good (build diversity, more ways to re-arrange traits) than evil (we didn't ask for instant cast burst, evade spam, or an OP trait to replace the original minor on discipline). All we asked for is build diversity and to make non-discipline builds work (And by work, I mean make "fake-outs" with weapon swap F1 cancels more available to other trees, not just discipline AND fluidity) WITHOUT touching the current Warrior meta with discipline builds. **Again, NOBODY asked for a straight buff or a catastrophic big buff**

Saying "Arms will need more than that, or Berserker will need more than that" IS WHAT LEADS TO POWER CREEP. Legit pay attention people for the love of christ, just because we don't know what ANET will replace it with in theory, that doesn't mean we want a "Straight buff." What I'm saying is make fast hands baseline first and then we can decide on whether Arms, Tactics, and Berserker will need changes (Though I think for Arms and Berserker specifically, baseline fast hands will be ALMOST good enough, tactics is definitely a different problem)

> @"Kraljevo.2801" said:

> GW2 classic server plz ;)

I would love to have this but here is the catch.. there is not enough demand for it and yes it will separate the playerbase. ANET's been cutting cost lately with the mass layoffs too, I'm assuming they're funds are getting low for a separate gw2 server or classic expansion.

One can dream though, I would pay for a classic GW2 server.

4.5k hours on Warrior has to be a lie. Literally with those amount of hours you would ACTUALLY Take the time to read what hydromancy sigil does.

In all honesty, he made an honest mistake. Be nice to the newbie guys. That must be a borrowed account, but the player is new.

I'll attempt to argue against myself again in hopes of REDIRECTING the thread to talk about specific builds that might be "bad powercreep."

WvW-wise. What about unsuspecting foe? **Could there be ANY unholy synergy with unsuspecting foe** (arms trait) assuming that baseline fast hands is implemented?

But like god this is already a losing argument because it's ALREADY hard to stun good players on good builds. There might be a nice soldier's (PVT) build that might work again but then you need to stun somebody to do damage. It probably won't be superior to a Power Ferocity Precision build unless it's a 1v1 vs. certain match up.

Baseline fast hands won't be OP for unsuspecting foe PVT builds from what it looks like.

And unsuspecting foe with a tanky amulet will be 100% bad in sPvP because then you can't really push people out without stuns.

I wonder what other "powercreep" builds are people talking about though that they are so against baseline fast hands.

> @"Edge.8724" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > since a selected few is trying their very best to make the discipline minor trait fast hands baseline..i fail to see why

> >

> > i mean warrior allready has the unfair advantage of proccing on weapon swap sigils every 5 seconds instead of every 9 seconds like pretty much everyone else, and it seems not enough?

> > what else do they want?

> >

> > in wvw how annoying is it to fight a warrior with hydromancy sigil, proccing it every 5 seconds..2 seconds of chill (together with blind and weakness the most annoying conditions to deal with)

> >

> > that's nearly a 50% upkeep, just by weapon swapping

> > same with superior sigil of energy, a free dodge roll every 5 seconds

> >

> > and the list goes on and on

>

> The Sigils have a cooldown on their effect beeing at 9 seconds. So even if you can swap weapons every 5 seconds, you won't receive the sigil's effect unless it's off cooldown.

>

> I'm not sure what is the point of this post.

Basically he was trying to "argue" against baseline fast hands, but legit proved that he had little to no game knowledge or he is a new player. Could just move on tbh.

The sigil argument would ALMOST be valid if it wasn't for the fact that fire/air is legitimately better if you wanted to hit evade spammers on Warrior in WvW. Just assume that melandru right here is a new player, just be nice to him from now on tbh really.

And even then, the sigil argument doesn't give Warrior instant cast burst (LITERALLY hydromancy doesn't burst THAT hard or reliably compared to fire/air), evade spam, or pet AI dodge baits.

Also, fire/air is ALOT worse than hydromancy. WvW has issues as well, hydromancy is the least of them. But it's okay, everybody makes mistakes.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/849144#Comment_849144

Here, bro. Have some "data" as well.

People are STILL not talking about builds that might be OP? Seriously? LOL

Use my template please.

I'll be nice for once and ask, are you SURE that's an unfair advantage over other classes? The 5 second weapon swap?

Are you sure it's stronger than Soulbeast burst? Are you sure it's more annoying than Chrono/Mirage instant cast burst damage? Are you sure it's a lot stronger than Firebrand team support?

Before you say something is OP, try exploring how other classes work first. From now on, I will assume that you're a new player and you don't really know much.

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> in wvw how annoying is it to fight a warrior with hydromancy sigil, proccing it every 5 seconds..2 seconds of chill (together with blind and weakness the most annoying conditions to deal with)

>Also, they're annoying to fight because I'm also bad and **can't dodge non-instant cast damage in 2019**or can't land skills on Warrior when it's a class that doesn't have many dodges compared to Ranger, Mesmer, Thief.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Hydromancy

Also, hydromancy can proc every 9 seconds regardless of fast hands or not. THAT's your excuse when fire/air can be a lot worse? Fire/air doesn't even need fast hands LMAO

Now you know some people can't be taken seriously.

Wait until you fight actual good players (Scourge/Chrono/Soulbeast/etc). I dare to play vs. good ones as Warrior, but you're too much of a coward that you're scared to be proven wrong.

My advice to you is, learn to count dodges, learn to count stunbreaks, stop getting hit by non-instant cast attacks in OPEN FIELD in 2019.

Even if they land hydromancy, what is to stop you from simply bursting them back? How do you not land anything on a class that DOESN'T SPAM EVADES while attacking. You could literally just run in a straight line and dodge anything Warrior when hydromancy runs out as well. But I guess people who are bad mechanically will complain about the class with millions of counters.

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > > > @""Ovark.2514"

> > > > Play core Necro for a while so you understand its weaknesses and can take advantage of them when on your favorite profession. Necromancer has huge holes in its skill set.

> > > >

> > > > One thing to understand is that Necro has few options for dealing with tells from other professions. Seeing a tell and being able to avoid the incoming damage are two different things so Necro players must carefully discern which skills to spend a counter on. Eating more CCs and damage bursts are the reason for Shroud, Fear, stun-breaks, and soft-CC conditions like weakness, blind, cripple, and chill. Necro does not have burst damage and has almost no hard CC. Core Necro, especially, is a condi-pressure profession. It does little else particularly well.

> > > >

> > > > The only block/immunity skill is shroud and it has several requirements for its use: ICD on use, charges by active attack via specific skills or local deaths, degenerates with skill use and/or with time, takes damage from incoming attacks, is unavailable without enough charge (life force), it does not prevent all damage within a time period and so does not scale up with incoming damage, and transforms the skill bar just like Signet of Humiliation.

> > > >

> > > > Regarding staff, it sets low-damage AoE traps. Staff is used for soft CC, nuisance condi, and a regen but removes most of a Necro's damage capability until it can be swapped out for other weapons. You should not have to fear staff. It merely buys time for the Necro and helps build life force.

> > > >

> > > > Read the wiki on Tainted Shackles and Chill of Death, again, and imagine what capabilities are missing in Necro such that the Dev's put those skills in the game and gave them the short/instant cast times. The shroud skill and auto-proc trait have counter-play for opponents built in them, too.

> > >

> > > I appreciate you trying to educate me on the necro but my skill at combating them is not anywhere near the topic of this thread. I'm simply reminding the devs of one of the residual problems of this game mode. The lack of adequate tells and animations for skills which apply a significant effect pushes out builds which would otherwise be useful with increased skill and practice.

> >

> > The thing is though, you should have included Mesmer and some other instant cast class in your title and you wouldn't be getting responses like this.

> >

> > I think Necro instant cast is insane too, it's been insane since launch cause back in 2015 they just chain CC so easy from a range. But that was combined with the ridiculous effective HP and lack of burst back in the day though. Now pretty much every class can burst and obviously.. that premise still matters before we say Necro instant cast is insane.

>

> It's hard to say anything on this sub forum without someone telling you "yeah but what about THIS?! I know necro doesn't have the amount of insta-activation skills that mesmers and some other builds have but I chose necro because I of it's uncanny ability to fear-lock you due to its built-in boon removal and/or corruption. Thief, and Guard can't lock players down with long CCs COMBINED with auto-activating stab (and any other boon) corrupt. Rev is strong with the lockdown if it tries, but it can't boon remove as well without sacrificing CC. Mesmer is the closest to necro there is as far as perma lock-down and even then the most it can do to counter Stab is to remove/steal it by using a utility or dedicated weapon. Even then you can counter a mes brust by simply stunbreaking and dodging or cleaving the clones (if not mirage). I don't want to get into a discussion about specific classes and their ups and downs, I simply want to feel like when I get into a fight with any player, if I have the skill and game+profession knowledge to be able to put up a decent fight regardless of build. Having appropriately sized tells for skills which could completely shut down a build if they land, is paramount. People often claim, and have done so on this thread, that "boon spam" needs to have an equal and opposing force to counteract it. This is a fine line of reasoning for choosing to play a boon ripping build, but people often don't even think about the way a fight plays out between these two factions short of "One guy gains a boon and the other removes it." It's not a action then reaction sort of trade that's taking place (or at least it shouldn't be). If a player suspects the other of attempting to put protection on themselves, they can preemptively being casting a boon removal ability OR wait until the player has the boon and then attempt to remove it. A player shouldn't just be able to hit a skill while in the middle of an attack and instantly remove a boon from someone. Often times players choosing off-meta builds often have hard decisions to make regarding defensive vs offensive utilities. Boon-rip and CC the way it is now demands a build play with at least 2 stunbreak/sustain utilities in order to be effective. Unfortunately, the game is currently designed to have about 1/4 of all utilities be stunbreaks (one for each utility type), and almost never are they all equally useful. This means that you will need to sacrifice 2/3 of your utility skills for stunbreaks. This means that you have to choose 2 out of the average of 6 stunbreak skills AT BEST. That alone should be reason for concern. In a world where you have 3 slots, 2 of which have to come from a choice of about 6, it's no wonder that build diversity has struggled since this games inception.

>

> This didn't start as a rant and I apologize that this happened as a response to your post BlackTruth. I may in the future make a dedicated thread for these topics and more. It's probably just the 7 years of pent up disappointment spilling out from seeing the player base complaining about symptoms rather than the root causes and the devs following suit.

No need for apologies, but yeah another thread has received the same treatment (one where one guy didn't include mesmer on things to talk about)

Instant cast is just insane when in a 1v1 for a point in conquest. It is DEFINITELY too much of an advantage like literally you could probably catch people at the end of an evade type of scenario as well. Getting stability corrupted is very bad for certain match ups too, and can be very infuriating for non-pulsing stab

You aren't wrong when you say Necro has really obnoxious things about it. I'm sure people might complain about them assuming that the other evils get nerfed but necro isn't touched tbh.

Soulbeast needed that nerf as well in all honesty. Soulbeast has one of the most EASIEST dodge baits in the game. Literally you bait with your pet and yourself, literally can't be more easy than that.

And for a low cooldown? Maul is disgusting.

Rom is still doing fine with a glass cannon soulbeast at high level play. Pretty sure he can be untouchable if he figures out a way to do that GS auto cancel. Ranger is disgusting. Always was a zero skill class.

Weapon master subclass for an expansion, 3 weapon swaps. Could literally be like no added mechanic other than 3 weapon swaps and I will be happy. But sad that it won't be realistic anytime soon. The new weapon is.. Warrior doesn't get one. And then you you get traits that incentivize swapping to specific weapon (for example, 2 attacks become unblockable when you swap to Rifle).

Though the OP's idea would not be bad at launch. Nowadays, there are too many blinds and evades to make a SLOW casting time build or expansion rather in this case relatively work.

Also, if your **non-fast hands builds become "Clunky" after 8 second burst yet 5 second cool down**, then count 4 seconds before switching? Why is common sense hard. Nobody is forcing you to switch after 5 seconds EVERYTIME, you are supposed to REACTIVELY SWITCH not methodically switch, what? It's clunky for you (and I'm saying this) because YOU IMPLIED that you're methodical and not reactive.

Just because you're having trouble doesn't mean anybody else should, and it isn't a REAL argument to keep baseline fast hands away.

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > @""Ovark.2514"

> > Play core Necro for a while so you understand its weaknesses and can take advantage of them when on your favorite profession. Necromancer has huge holes in its skill set.

> >

> > One thing to understand is that Necro has few options for dealing with tells from other professions. Seeing a tell and being able to avoid the incoming damage are two different things so Necro players must carefully discern which skills to spend a counter on. Eating more CCs and damage bursts are the reason for Shroud, Fear, stun-breaks, and soft-CC conditions like weakness, blind, cripple, and chill. Necro does not have burst damage and has almost no hard CC. Core Necro, especially, is a condi-pressure profession. It does little else particularly well.

> >

> > The only block/immunity skill is shroud and it has several requirements for its use: ICD on use, charges by active attack via specific skills or local deaths, degenerates with skill use and/or with time, takes damage from incoming attacks, is unavailable without enough charge (life force), it does not prevent all damage within a time period and so does not scale up with incoming damage, and transforms the skill bar just like Signet of Humiliation.

> >

> > Regarding staff, it sets low-damage AoE traps. Staff is used for soft CC, nuisance condi, and a regen but removes most of a Necro's damage capability until it can be swapped out for other weapons. You should not have to fear staff. It merely buys time for the Necro and helps build life force.

> >

> > Read the wiki on Tainted Shackles and Chill of Death, again, and imagine what capabilities are missing in Necro such that the Dev's put those skills in the game and gave them the short/instant cast times. The shroud skill and auto-proc trait have counter-play for opponents built in them, too.

>

> I appreciate you trying to educate me on the necro but my skill at combating them is not anywhere near the topic of this thread. I'm simply reminding the devs of one of the residual problems of this game mode. The lack of adequate tells and animations for skills which apply a significant effect pushes out builds which would otherwise be useful with increased skill and practice.

The thing is though, you should have included Mesmer and some other instant cast class in your title and you wouldn't be getting responses like this.

I think Necro instant cast is insane too, it's been insane since launch cause back in 2015 they just chain CC so easy from a range. But that was combined with the ridiculous effective HP and lack of burst back in the day though. Now pretty much every class can burst and obviously.. that premise still matters before we say Necro instant cast is insane.

"You don't know what they will replace it with" here is the catch, there is a chance that ANET will not repeat the same mistakes. There is ALWAYS a chance that they will simply replace it with a non-significant trait if baseline fast hands is implemented.

The fact that it HASN'T happened yet and you're using that as an excuse to shut down the debate is ridiculous.

And before you call somebody dishonest, look at the mirror. "Fast hands baseline is redundant" but in the next sentence "It is actually powercreep with no trade-off" when nobody asked for the replacement trait to be something overpowered and that there is a good chance ANET will replace it with something BALANCED after the mass layoffs.

Next.

I will re-direct this thread, **clearly responding to people with fail arguments is a waste of time.**

I will "argue" against myself and say that (for example) Arms Def Zerker gunflame might become an "evil" build if they implement baseline fast hands

**Fake Me**: "Okay, so Arms Def Zerker with gunflame plus baseline fast hands might be OP in sPvP or WvW. Now you get to play Rifle with a DEFENSE spec and now you can probably burst people for a lot of damage while being very survivable. You're basically a Warrior who can burst people from afar and STILL be able to tank point with OP rampage. Why should they make fast hands baseline when this "powercreep" overpowered build might happens? Why should we make Arms Def Zerker gunflame playable when it has so many unblockables and can potentially be anti-fun? 10k unblockables take no skill to land"

**Real Me**: From an sPvP perspective, you lose shield? If you take shield with Rifle you lose mobility? Instead of tanking the gunflame, learn to obstruct instead? At the cost of being able to burst people from afar, you also. In order to spam gunflame reliably, you need to use Signet of Fury and the berserker heal. And because there is a lot of block spam that is going on already, you would probably have to use signet of might as well to proc the 2nd signet of might to make gunflame even remote-ly viable. So even with the Defense tree, you would still die within seconds if people played it correctly. If you get rid of the signets, you get block spammed to death without being a real issue and you lack any way to pressure the enemy team. Compared to a STR DEF DISC Warrior, you would have a hard time disengaging fights and holding a point, therefore it would STILL BE balanced because GUNFLAME REQUIRES A LOT OF SACRIFICES ALREADY. Okay, now you get "fake out" potential with Axe + Rifle if you do get the baseline fast hands to mind game cancel eviscerates, NOW you lose mobility and can't really rotate to points and disengage reliably.

Also, Soulbeast almost does the same thing but better. We didn't even ask for evade spam, and instant cast, why are you worked up?

THIS is how we move the argument, not shutting the discussion down with "8 second burst is clunky for me with a 5 second weapon swap because I'm bad" or it's "redundant and won't change anything anyways" or "ALL THE SUDDEN MY ARGUMENT IS POWERCREEP WHEN MY OTHER PREMISE WAS REDUNDANT (LOL)"

> @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> We live or die by our Bursts (or lack thereof when they are denied) not Weapon Swap ,or Movement Speed. Those are secondary factors not the main one. Stop saying otherwise. Burst is our main mechanic not weapon swap.

>

> You want your weapon swap to be close to your burst recharge. You have a 5 second weapon swap if Fast Hands is Baseline and a 8 second Burst recharge when not running Discipline. That's actually clunky.

>

> I loose my Warriors Sprint whenever I swap to my Rifle all the time, you get used to it. I dont even run Bulls Charge or GreatSword, you should be using those to close the gaps and using those to start a burst.

>

> I would be okay with the Baseline Weapon Swap recharge at 7 seconds (2 seconds faster than non Warriors), close to non disc-burst recharge of 8 seconds. Then 5 second Weapon Swap Fast Hands could still stay in the Discipline tree where it belongs.

>

>

Stow weapon/faking out with weapon swap says hi? It won't ALWAYS be at an 8 second cd if you had half a brain on what "high skill cap" Warriors looks like. I will GLADLY get rid of discipline for an STR ARMS DEF eviscerate build. **Fake out potential IS VERY discipline exclusive atm** (You get to fake out Eviscerate more often WITH fast hands, hence it is PIDGEON HOLED into discipline). That is boring and it pidgeonholes Warrior into discipline because a non-discipline build does not have 5 second weapon swap. Do you not understand how Stow weapon, F1, and weapon swaps work? Sometimes you can even use weapon swap to fake people out with Evsiecerate. THAT is what we are trying to make for non-discipline builds as well. But someone who lacks mechanical knowledge is more credible than somebody who actually uses game mechanics as evidence. That would be a GREAT QoL fix to eviscerate builds where people don't want to run discipline all the time.

Btw, you still "didn't" provide a legitimate argument against baseline fast hands. Basically your fail argument is "I'm having trouble with the rotations if we were to have baseline fast hands with an 8 second burst because I don't know what Stow weapon is or I don't know what to do within that time period"

THAT my friend is a fail argument AGAINST fast hands baseline.

You're the only one who has this problem. Good Warriors won't have it, you're probably not a real Warrior main anyways.

But say ANET stops listening to fail arguments and we had baseline fast hands. We could be having builds such as (From a PVP perspective):

STR ARMS DEF

ARMS DEF ZERKER

STR DEF SB (Which is kinda already a thing to some people)

While still having KEEPING the current builds we already have strong and untouched.

All the baseline fast hands people are asking for is build variety. 5 Second weapon swap will ALLOW that because Warrior's skill cap SHOULD be the faking outs with stow and weapon swaps. And your argument that says "your rotation will be messed up if YOU take baseline fast hands without discipline" only works for you, not for other people. **One thing becoming clunky for you does not become CLUNKY for other people, hence why your argument is legitimately FAIL and VERY selfish. And if you think that will be clunky for me, you are DEAD wrong because I will find a way. I'm not some random low theorycrafting Warrior main like someone I know**

Next.

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > It increases power creep because it gives an advantage across the board with no consequence. Not only do you get FH for free on any warrior build, you get a completely new trait to replace FH in Discipline as well. I mean, if you can't see how that's power creep, there isn't much left to discuss; clearly you lack the understanding to speak on the topic to begin with.

> > >

> > > So... buffing traitlines (by making single minor trait baseline) that are used WAY less overall because they don't work well without Discipline is considered powercreep. Interesting.

> >

> > Clearly, at this point, your comprehension is an issue; you aren't aware of what power creep is and when you are told, you can't properly apply it to the situation being discussed. maybe you're just one of these people that think being obtuse = argument won = you're right /shrug ... here is the best part ...

> >

> > I will just sit here and be assured that FH will never be baseline because of 'nice to have' or 'not a big deal to change it' because it's easy to see that's never been reasons Anet has giving for changing the game. What I will do is leave the final warning; as this is being presented, it's not hard to conclude that Discipline should be nerfed. Tread carefully; the example given by Sigmoid with Vital Persistence on SR for necros is VERY comparable to what is being asked here.

>

>

> **Important note**

> Let's sum this up as simple as possible:

>

> You want valid reasons why make FH baseline.

> My argument: improved rotations, their smoothness, pace and momentum of non-Discipline builds, therefore improvement for non-Discipline builds overall to be closer to Discipline builds when it comes to practicality.

> Your argument: not big enough reason.

>

Like, nobody ASKED for instant cast burst, and evade spam. And these people are worked up. Legit can't fail harder than that. It's disgusting XD

Accusing people of "comprehension issues" when they are the ones who don't understand anything, my god the hypocrisy is real.

Yes you can play Arms + Def + Berserker gunflame without fast hands, but GIVING it fast hands wouldn't hurt and would be a QoL fix that isn't catastrophic: It does more good than harm.

Like that guy man. Jesus XD keep feeding the "against fast hands" argument with 100% garbage arguments, comprehension issues rofl, hypocrite.