BlackTruth.6813

That reminds me. Do we EVEN have a public test realm? At all?

Ostrich on Minion Masters now, he gonna be a grandmaster soon yo watch out. He gonna be the next Yugi Mutou

You forgot Jumper for s/d + s/d evade spam stun break spam Thief back in 2013 or 2014 LOL

Also honorable mention to Powerr and Java for being the best voice and hairline in GW2. Ever.

You ALSO use game mechanics as evidence. Look at turret engi for example, do you keep that automatic socialist garbage in the game even though nobody uses that in high level play? (When in fact, it DID make it to a tournament at one point) This MAT/leaderboards argument is feelings based evidence. Actual AI, evades, instant-cast, and how those work for the class in terms of how hard it baits cds and dodges are REAL EVIDENCE.

An example would be how Turret Engi back in the day could bait dodges AUTOMATICALLY because they can still do damage with a broken amulet like Sentinel Amulet, and be NEAR immortal because SENTINEL amulet was disgusting effective HP. Do you REALLY think you should be defending something so unhealthy and gives ANET a bad reputation when it is common sense that it is obnoxious and bad designed?

hashtags #factsdontcareaboutyourfeelings #realevidence

^which is pretty much Launch's meta, minus the obnoxious condition tank builds. Good riddance, finally the game has a chance to shine again albeit really low chance of reaching it's former glory of GW2 e-sports pre-HoT 2015

Use game mechanics? Look at how something baits dodges and defensive cds really well (**BECAUSE the game is not about trading hits, it's about trading dodges and defensive cds if it's hard for people to understand how GW2 pvp works**), for example, like Ranger. You have an AI pet baiting dodges with obnoxious damage and random CC, you have soulbeast damage + CC baiting dodges, and then you get evade spam from the soulbeast as well ridiculous mobility, is that balanced? All of those factors prove that soulbeast has a lot going for it.

It really CAN be simplified to dodge baits and defensive cds, literally ROM just delays a point and ganks really well with soulbeast and he probably won't play anything else because he would be at a disadvantage if he was in terms of baiting dodges and cds.

At this point, if you had common sense then you would understand that Soulbeast isn't balanced.

EDIT: replaced ranger with soulbeast, although ranger as a class has been historically low skill because automatic dodge baits from pets are obnoxious zero skill garbage. And some ranger "pro" mains who have tried different classes back in the day (who I won't name) got destroyed every time they tried a non-AI pet class.

> @"Marxx.5021" said:

> > @"OutOfOrder.3719" said:

> > It was overpowered, and the 33% barrier reduction was completely justified.

>

> And not even that they were able to implement ....

Yep for some reason the Barrier is still pulsing 10k barrier total, might be a bug.

A correlation, possibly. But most of the time, there are things that are somewhat obvious: People who ALREADY HAVE z-axis teleport, AI while evading/attacking/doing other actions, or instant cast burst and STILL MANAGES to have a reason to complain about how "underpowered" their class is goes into the "entitled" category.

^ALL of these actually happened, and vods could be pulled out from what Chaith said by the way.

The trait rework allowed DPS Warrior to take over instead of boring shoutbow (which was literally the most boring spec ever, after turret engi nerF) for example

There were MORE VARIETY on team comps as well, THAT you cannot deny at all. Specifically when I said we had more viewership before HoT kicked in, those things happened too.

> @"Ario.8964" said:

> > @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> > > @"Ario.8964" said:

> > > > @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> > > > > @"incisorr.9502" said:

> > > > > Everyone crying about condi mirage when it was already the least played class in high elo https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

> > > > >

> > > > > In this current season there are two revenants in top 10 and 0 mirages,

> > > > > in top 50 there are five + revenants and **one single mirage player** (in fact, the 2nd highest mirage is all over #70 so you have only 1 player making it in top 70 as a mirage out of what is it? Millions of active gw2 players?)

> > > > >

> > > > > How does anet justify nerfing a class that has been underperforming for months even further while a class like revenant that's broken beyond reason that's dominating the game and that does dmg beyond any reason in pvp with the best ganking tools in the game is still allowed to be in here?

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm not even here to post my opinion but merely to state facts and the facts are that CONDI MIRAGE remains the least played class on high elo along with elementalist (sometimes less played, sometimes more played). You can literally play any other mesmer spec (power or core or chrono or whatever) and you'll be better off than playing condi mirage because the class was completely nuked out of orbit due to what? Peer pressure and forum propaganda? REALLY? It's also the least played class for AT finalists (except ele, again) for the last half year

> > > > >

> > > > > so how are patch notes made? is it based on forum whining ? because if someone was actually checking the state of the game we would have the complete opposite patch

> > > >

> > > > Balancing for the top 250 players will eventually reduce your playerbase to 250 players.

> > >

> > > Well that's just straight up not true. Balancing a game to the top 250 will allow it to be based on skill, timing, prediction, etc. (all of the things that we complain don't matter due to powercreep, passives, etc.). The reason the game has lost so much of it's playerbase is due to balancing to the casuals. Casual players couldn't properly combo damage and cc together so anet added more cc and damage so they could play better. They kept dying quickly so anet gave them passive lifesavers, passive counter cc, more healing/evasion/invuln so they could live longer. All this has done is made the trash tier players marginally stronger (they can get lucky with occasionally killing something if they have 10k hits to spam or they can sometimes actually survive more than 2 seconds if they can spam invuln and healing) and make higher level players god tier (they know how to time and stagger cds so they always have some sort of near 1 shot combo ready, they also always leave themselves with tons of sustain, disengage tools, etc). Balancing to the performance of a high level player will be better for the game's health in the long run, will attract more players (new game modes would help a ton too but I digress) and gives the bad players something to strive for.

> > >

> > > TLDR: Why should anyone be rewarded for being bad? Ever? They shouldn't be, so don't balance that way.

> >

> > Balancing for the top 250 players will eventually reduce your playerbase to 250 players.

>

> Balancing to everyone below that will eventually reduce your playerbase to 0.

Now this has to be the quote of the century LOL at least my interpretation of it (People not knowing how to counter Rampage, lacking common sense, etc)

Because it gives ALL classes a chance to do something against obnoxious evade spam classes like Mesmer and Ranger?

I am seriously hoping you are not saying "Mesmer should be the only class with burst and evade spam" to create an identity because that is just entitled. Monopolistic balancing like that is fail and you need to simply understand why ALL CLASSES have to do damage now.

I would be okay if Warrior, for example, was the slow telegraphed CC class but that would only work if there wasn't INSANE amounts evades and defensive cds so it HAS TO DO DAMAGE because playing an "identity creating" playstyle is pointless.

It's literally pick your poison, keep identity (but lose players because of garbage balancing) or homogenize balance a little bit while having SOME identity (Warrior does insane damage but because at least Warrior doesn't use annoying Phantasms/instant cast shatters or ranger pet EZ dodge baits for example, and is STILL A VERY TELEGRAPHED CLASS)

The latter is the lesser evil, and it would just be entitled to not understand why classes today have "mesmer level" of burst.

TL;DR WERE NOT PLAYING REAL LIFE, WERE TRYING TO PLAY A SPORT. Get that in your head.

I think there is a reason to pick core Warrior over Berserker and Spellbreaker, but yes I do agree for Engi and Mesmer (Their elite specs are COMPLETE upgrades/vertical progression)

Can't speak for Ele, Ranger, Guard, Necro, and Thief. Those classes have a grey area around them.

The trait rework was nice, HoT ruined it and killed e-sports.

We legit had viewership then to be fair, when HoT came? Hotfix or we quit is what the players said.

Warrior sprint getting an ICD would be a shave, but pandering to garbage arguments and bronze level players won't get us anywhere.

Here is the catch, Immobilize is just USELESS. It's good vs. bad players but it is legit the most useless condition now in the game when some classes have like 33% slow reduction on their traits. You can nerf Warrior Sprint but still get trolled by Dogged March for example. And there are negative duration condition food on WvW (pultry leak soup)

Hard CC is better, boon corruption is better, flat out killing the Warrior is better. Don't nerf something because you're using an underpowered condition to counter it.

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > Here is to hoping there are no evil that will come out from un-nerfing it

> >

> > So before we do that, we need to talk about the potential evils, if there is any.

>

> You may be beaten by a Tempest.

> We probably want to save people from that embarrassing situation.

>

> Id love it if they unnerfed it but Id like it more if it was updated to actually have every stat.

Maybe some shout Warrior build might come back, who knows.

> @"Punny.9210" said:

> > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > > > > > @"Vancho.8750" said:

> > > > > > Run Warrior's Sprint on berserker an tell me does it change much. The core traits are not only for the the current meta speck. Most people do not enjoy touching the core traitlines and i give as example Berserker as one of the worst ways to nerf something. @Quadox i agree with a lot of your opinions , but sometimes your suggestions for other professions seem like backseat driver advice.

> > > > >

> > > > > a) Core mes with evasive mirror is not good, that doesn't mean evasive mirror isn't broken. Sure one trait can't carry an entire spec, but that doesn't mean much.

> > > > > b) I wanted to point out is that Warrior's Sprint was an unnecesary powercreep in the 2015 trait rework, not that Warrior's Sprint is heavily overperforming in relation to some of the other PoF traits for example. In an ideal world I don't think the "remove immobilize" part of the trait is healthy.

> > > > > c) The entire forum is kind of a backseat driver, with the anet balance team being the driver.

> > > >

> > > > How is the immob cleanse on Warrior's Sprint unhealthy? Would honestly like to hear an explanation to that.

> > >

> > > Warrior's Sprint and Unhindered Combatant (at least pre-exhaustion) remove immobilise without investment. It trivialises, basically nullifies, the Immobilse condition entirely just as elusive mind essentially nullified hard cc (even then, elusive mind didn't nullify the initial interrupt-part of the cc). I find these kinds of effects problematic for at least two reasons (ottomh).

> > >

> > > a) It removes an important avenue of counterplay completely, making skills that apply immobilise pointless. For me, immobilise is complementary to daze, and I doubt people would appreciate if some class had a trait that made daze ineffectual. There are in my mind a couple of reasons why immobilise does not seem to be seen as equivalent in efficacy by most people. 1) Condition removal has become so abundant, a solution to this could be to separate impairing conditions and damaging conditions entirely on cleanses. 2) Defense in gw2 pvp relies more on skills/utilities/traits than on dodges now than in the past; we used to have energy sigils at 50%, vigor at +100% and 100% vigor uptime on more classes via the now nerfed "vigor on-crit" traits. And this natually makes immobilise less powerful.

> > >

> > > b) In general, adding an abundance of some effect inevitably leads to powercreep. By adding lots of cleanse, condi application must also be buffed. By adding CC, stunbreaks must be made more common. And vice versa. By the same token, making immobilise easy to remove or otherwise ignore in a variety of ways (not exclusive to warrior or this trait) leads to having to powercreep ways to lock down or chase the opponent - such as more weakness, cripple, stun, immob.

> > >

> > > Now, this trait isn't the only offender, and I also think it could be argued for that shadowsteps should be movment skills and thus unusable during immobilise, but what do I know. Is this trait specifically game-breaking? Not really.

> >

> > I must be psychic. I saw that comparison coming a mile away.

> >

> > What I think you forget is that Unhindered Combatant is tied to the Daredevil's endurance, not specific cooldowns. Granted Endurance takes time to regenerate but the access to Vigor, access to Energy sigils as well as Endurance regenerating traits and skills that Daredevil uses; this made that trait explicitly insane not only because of the frequency in which it could be used but also due to the travel distance of the dash itself being quite significant compared to that of a regular dodge. Remember Daredevil has 3 bars of Endurance to use, pair that with Vigor + Energy Sigil + Endurance regain traits/skills and that is an effect that can be applied far too frequently. Rush, Bull's Charge, Whirlwind Attack and Savage Leap (the main ones) are all on longer cooldowns than those dashes would be, even when traited. Don't get me wrong, I think Anet just threw the Exhaustion status into traits because they didn't want to bother actually addressing the problems properly. In the case of the dodge dash they could have put an ICD on the cleanses plus shortened the actual distance of the dash to actually allow for some counterplay from melee against it. Similar treatment for Elusive Mind, an ICD on the trait would have served to balance it much better than just simply slapping exhaustion in there and wouldn't have made the trait useless.

> >

> > It does not remove an avenue of counterplay, it adds an avenue of counterplay to a class that is strictly melee bound because its ranged options are terrible. Immob is a soft CC that serves the purpose of hindering movement but still allowing for some character control with abilities, where Daze is a bit opposite. It doesn't restrict movement but restricts ability use.

> >

> > Defense in GW2 has always relied on cooldowns *and* dodges, never one or the other. It has always been a combination of both when it comes to sustain in fights, especially in fights where the opponent isn't inept. Even early on defense wasn't primarily based around dodges, people didn't have enough experience in the game yet to know when to dodge as they do these days. Some did, many more did not.

> >

> > While I agree there is power creep in the game I don't think it comes from needing to add more ways of locking an enemy down outside of immobilize, or rather *because* immobilize is "no longer as strong". With how a Druid specifically can abuse immob I would hate to be a Warrior without Warrior's Sprint. You wouldn't be able to move as they either kited away or just shot you from 1,500+ range and they can already do these things extremely well even without immobilize affecting a Warrior. Soulbeast even more so. Thief as well. Rifle Holo vs a Warrior if Warrior's Sprint did not remove immob? Rifle 2 into Forge mode and they just unload on you as they would if they had landed a stun or other hard CC against you. Which the standard holo combo has a hard CC in there with Forge 5 as well, plus 50% heat Prime Light Beam? Thats an immob + knockdown + unblockable knockback.

> >

> > Does that sound healthy for PvP to you? As if Warrior needs to get kited more by the instant teleports up ledges or double swoop 1500+ range Soulbeasts more than they already do, you want them to get immob'd and be forced to drop a condi cleanse like Berserker Stance or Shake It Off on it. This assuming they don't get immob'd and then loaded up with other conditions thus making them unable to cleanse the immob because of how cleanses work to begin with (they only cleanse the most recently applied condition).

>

> idk what tier you are

>

> but if u get kited in spvp as warrior

>

> u have a big issue man

>

>

Nope, you're the one who is bronze. I dare you to play Warrior vs. top players. Nice feelings based arguments though, coming from a bronzie who CANT KITE RAMPAGE LOL

The "fact" that you're trying to immobilize rampage to try to "counter it" makes you the inferior player. Don't go around deflecting like "u hab big issue hurr durr" when you're using immobilize to counter something that doesn't need to be immobed.

Here is to hoping there are no evil that will come out from un-nerfing it

So before we do that, we need to talk about the potential evils, if there is any.

> @"Mammoth.1975" said:

> If it's yours, stay, if it's neutral, stay, if it's theirs, leave. Very few exceptions. Fact is as a scrapper you're not helping your team much if you join them anyway, your whole job is keeping nodes or keeping them neutral.

Though to be fair, the healing and condi cleanse is really nice in team fights. Firebrand is probably better though tbh for overall team bunker

Logic is hard for snowflakes.

> @"Chaith.8256" said:

> What's the point of making a balance note if you address the sheer silliness of Unstoppable Union's potential 40% Unblockable uptime, but deliberately make no comment on something like Evasive Mirror's 2s Reflect on a 1.5s cd. What's the potential projectile blocking uptime of that? Yes I'm sure it would be great if Soulbeasts had reduced access to Unblockable but Mirage lowkey kept the Reflect uptime. You're too biased, IMO

>

> Edit: If you say that just because something isn't meta definining, we still need to talk about the silly and unhealthy traits/mechanics, that's fine. We can operate under those parameters if you don't protect your Mirage class because it's not meta defining. Holo isn't meta defining, neither is Longbow SlB, yet that's pretty much the point of your balance note to address.

Some of what the guy listed are way lesser evils than what Mesmer does as well. It's astonishing

Like it's understandable to talk about things nobody talks about (like Chronomancer actually potentially the next cancer on Mesmer) oh wait... it's not on this thread.

I will say that this guy is a lot more tolerable than incissor though.

Oh and one more thing, WHO USES IMMOBILIZE in 2019?

Immobilize is actually obsolete compared to just doing non-CC dependent damage.

Literally immob is so bad right now, flat out CC or easy to land damage is just better. You're saying you need to immob someone to escape? Really what is this 2013 where immobilize actually did something?

Yes I can confirm, Soulbeast can actually burst a scrapper.

If a scrapper has toolkit or hammer guard to attempt to mitigate power damage, soulbeast can use unblockables and one shot a scrapper. Scrapper has some options that they can do tho (wait out unblockable, obstruct long bow, etc) Only way to kinda tank soulbeast burst and keep point is with Elixir X and pray you get Rampage once you run out of dodges.

It's still possible for scrapper delay a point 2v1 but it gets VERY hard vs. instant cast Shatter Chrono or soulbeast god tier dodge baits + automatic pet.

Every other class though, Scrapper does fine and kinda more than enough (Even vs. Spellbreaker it's not completely bad but Warrior DOES have an edge)

It's beginning to really look like Scrapper doesn't deserve nerfs until Soulbeast and Chrono burst gets toned down. But more damage is great for the game so gotta be careful.

As much as I don't exactly like to pander to people, nerfing Reckless dodge and Bull's Charge is really a shave and legit won't change fundamentals.

The fact that only "Reckless dodge" and "Bull's Charge" are the things people are complaining about means they can't find a legitimate argument to say that Warrior is broken though.

And Rampage can be kited, what's your point? Why do you need to CC/Immob rampage when you can simply use z-axis teleports and superspeed? Some times you can even fight back if you new how to evade while attacking on most classes, it's an L2P issue.

Practice countering before you complain, or we're going nowhere. Literally I can understand if Warrior was an instant cast evade spam AI/pet class, but it isn't.

Now factor in protection, random weakness, random blinds. Reckless dodge is the LEAST of your concern tbh. You won't need to burn a defensive cd or endurance for that.

But w/e I don't mind reckless dodge getting nerfed, I personally will be okay even if it's gutted. But complaining about something that isn't instant cast and REQUIRES an actual ENDURANCE BAR to cast (Where warrior doesn't have reliable vigor uptime other than stances, some of which you can't even control and isn't even permanent uptime) is disgustingly problematic, like if the Warrior has to BURN ENDURANCE to do damage, then the dodge count becomes predictable and you only have to wait for whirlwind attack and shield block.

The whirlwind attack is a skill shot too, you don't even have to use a dodge to dodge it. And while the Warrior is blocking? They can't attack.

I don't mind a shave, but literally if you're using these things as an excuse to say Warrior is broken then there is a legitimate player problem.