BlackTruth.6813

> @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> This request for Fast Hands to become baseline has come up before, and as was mentioned earlier in this thread, Warrior Runes were suggested at that time and immediately dismissed as an alternative. I was a bit skeptical about the dismissal by so many Warriors last time, and I still am today.

>

> Base weapon swap is 9 seconds, with Warrior Runes it brings weapon swap down to 7 seconds which puts it close to the Burst cooldown of 8 seconds if you are not running Discipline and getting Versatile Power. That seems pretty reasonable to me.

>

> Warriors with Disipline are getting a faster burst recharge via Versatile Power at 6 3/4 seconds this meshes up well with the Fast Hands Weapon swap of 5 seconds. Also reasonable.

>

> There is also nothing stopping a Warrior from using Warrior Runes and the Discipline traitline. This brings weapon swap down to a paltry 3.9 seconds and burst recharge down to 6 3/4 seconds. Where are all the Warriors running this combo? Because its too fast of a cooldown, thats why.

>

> Personally I like the Weapon Swap theme of the Disciple traitline and Fast Hands should stay there.

>

> There is nothing stopping you from using Warrior Runes which puts your Burst in line with your Weapon Swap when not running Fast Hands.

>

> 5 seconds is too fast for a 8 second burst recharge (non-disc) Warrior anyways.

From a PvP perspective:

Warrior runes are clunky, you lose out Rune of the Lynx for mobility (If you're not going to use Warrior Sprint, which I'm okay not being baseline but I'm not okay losing mobility as a Melee class with high casting times) if you want to make.a legitimate build. Losing mobility means people are just going to run in a straight line and avoid EVERYTHING you do. Not having mobility is brutal on Warrior dude, it's not THAT easy to play it vs. actual players.

And don't say use Signet of Rage, there is no point in picking that over Rampage.

It would be easier to just make Fast Hands baseline and then replace it with a non-broken trait on discipline. NOBODY is asking for a potentially catastrophic buff, were trying to increase build diversity and trait combinations in the LEAST catastrophic way as possible.

Nothing is wrong about trying to make Berserker/Tactics/Defense or Str + Arms + Defense tolerable to play but not OP for example.

Also if people are saying that this will be "broken in PvE" that's just flat out pathetic. Literally people are worked up over PvE when this game is basely even challenging than something such as Path of Exile? LOL. Like nothing will probably change in PvE anyways.

And NOBODY is asking for the fast hand trait to be replaced by an INSTANT CAST BURST/EVADE/free unblockable. Just a 2% damage increase on weapon swap for 2 seconds could be fine. Or like fury on weapon swap for 2 seconds could be good enough to replace fast hands when weapon switch becomes baseline.

You can strawman harder than that. Legit nobody asked for a god tier trait to replace fast hands, and that's what you're worked up about. That's just pathetic. What some of us are trying to accomplish is MAYBE some arms + def + berserker or str + arms + def warrior MIGHT become tolerable to play, and guess what? Those builds wouldn't really be OP.

If they are to have HIGHER cast times right now, then they need better effective HP to make up for it. It isn't pre-HoT 2015, times have changed and there is a lot more burst now.

Before you nerf their casting times, they better HAVE compensation elsewhere, because were not trying to remake ANET's "Quickness change" that ruined Warrior for months back in 2012. VERY idiotic, were not trying to repeat history either hopefully.

Baseline fast hands. Not too broken, not too bad.

Then we can decide which traits are TRULY underperforming (It's really just tactics ATM, unblockable signet is actually not bad on a power build)

As long as they do not give Warrior instant cast burst damage, stealth, or non-endurance evade spam, baseline fast hands should be enough of a balanced change.

Such a bad argument, "it increases powercreep" but the same people who are "against" baseline fast hands (who said the change was redundant and doesn't really change anything) also said what is the point of not using discipline even with baseline fast hands. NO CONSEQUENCES THEY SAY LMAO.

Now you know who are the people that can't be taken seriously.

Nice try hypocrites. Next argument, but let me make this easy for you.

How is STR ARMS DEF core warrior broken op, assuming baseline fast hands is implemented?

P.S I really like how the argument shifts from "don't put in the game, it's a redundant change that won't change" into "it's powercreep that will ruin the game"

When somebody changes their story a lot, it really shows that they cannot be taken seriously. BASELINE FAST HANDS did not give Warrior instant cast burst, stealth, or evade spam. Facts don't care about your feelings, use REAL facts such as game mechanics. Not feelings based changing my story constantly.

That looks broke :(

And people still can't find a "legitimate" reason to say why Baseline fast hands should stay out of the game.

100% garbage arguments still getting thrown out in opposition to baseline fast hands. "Don't demand people to debate how much would change and what exact build might turn out problematic" THAT is a cop-out and a fail argument

Why can't you just say "I can't find an OP/problematic build that will come out for PvP if baseline fast hands were to be implementend, but I will say don't add baseline fast hands to the game anyways" This is how people sound like in this thread, no REAL arguments but will argue against it anyways, effectively wasting our time.

Because honestly, THAT would be the only time that logically should not allow fast hands baseline to be in the game, if a problematic build were to come out.

Stay classy, logic is hard.

Anet would rather ban ragers that DO play the game and are actually good (davinci) instead of perma-dishonoring people that have been AFKing constantly in game

Literally, it doesn't take a staff to see if people are doing this constantly. You could hire some fresh graduate at minimum wage to take care of this.

Necro isn't more telegraphed than Warrior or Scrapper :) They DO have instant cast (shroud fear on core, even shroud fear on reaper can be untelegraphed and can be easy to time) but if you wanted to defend Necro you would say "at least they don't spam evades and don't have any real invulns, and effective HP isn't really that great by itself"

And no, it's not just making "arms" work even though, as I've said before, it's ACTUALLY an okay traitline that needs a small push.

Strength + Tactics + Defense

Berserker + Tactics + Defense might be interesting

Yeah, call them useless, but some people might enjoy them? That's the whole point is to have fun with builds without being annoyingly OP?

Literally the least evil patch that they can give to Warrior is by making weapon swaps baseline 5 seconds.

And just because you "don't see" the build variety that might come out and you might see "baseline fast hands" as Arms and Tactics still being useless, THAT isn't a reason for ANET to not consider baseline fast hands. That is a garbage reason and you literally wasted your time when you specifically implied it "won't really change anything" at least in YOUR eyes. Literally you keep using discipline, go ahead. But some people will get bored enough to find other builds that don't involve it. Just because YOU don't feel like finding a build that might work without discipline, that is a FAIL REASON to say that baseline fast hands should not be in the game.

The ONLY time that baseline fast hands should not be in the game if there will be an OP build that will come out of it, name me one? You can't. And "redundant" is a fail reason because THERE WILL BE PEOPLE who might want to try playing without discipline (It IS possible but baseline fast hands would be the biggest oomph that won't break the game).

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > > imo fast hands baseline or not won't change much. discipline on it's whole is just to good not to take

> >

> > It would change things. That is why we want it. It wouldn't cause huge balance outbreak as some people think (because as you posted, non-Discipline builds will still miss all other Discipline traits). It is just that one of the biggest reasons why non-Discipline builds are not very used/prefered/enjoyed (overall in all game modes) is because warrior just functions much better with 5 sec instead of 10 sec weapon CD.

> > Arguments that some weapon skills have longer cooldown than 10 seconds are flawed because you don't spam all skills off cooldown. At least not as competent warrior (or in some PvE builds).

>

> ok, say fast hands got baseline and you are now free to take another traitline.

>

> 1) will you run defense instead of discipline in raids/fracs now? offcourse you won't

> 2) will you run arms now instead of discipline in raids/fracs? offcourse you won't

> 3) will you run berserker now instead of discipline in raids/fracs? offcourse you won't

>

> 4) will you run spellbreaker now instead of discipline in raids/fracs? ONLY in no pain no gain intsbas. as is allready the case.

>

> this is purely from a pve point of view, and i doubt it's any different from pvp.

>

> -arms? still kitten for pvp

> -berserker? still kitten for pvp

> -tactics? still kitten for pvp

>

> only valid build that i would see myself using is strenght-defense-spellbreaker which is probably the build you play hence you want fast hands so bad.

>

> is a nerf to something that becomes baseline (nothing comes for free) worth it, to improve YOUR one build, without discipline?

These are absolute garbage arguments against baseline fast hands.

So you'd rather have them make those specific traitlines broken then? Instead of an EASY fix yet non-broken fix?

Okay how about we make Berserker's F1 unblockable, tactics shouts start healing 2ks without healing power, give arms the 100% crit on burst skill a baseline grandmaster MINOR TRAIT. Is that what you want? Broken garbage ass fixes?

Also GL playing without Arms vs. block spammers such as scrapper/firebrand/guardian in PvP. Not a complete garbage tree when you have people who actually have any brain on what theorycrafting is and what "build variety" means. Arms needs a small push, not a giant buff that you are implying AND it might actually become a good trait line with baseline fast hands. It must be hard to understand that the unblockable signet makes it so that you only need to count dodges instead of paying attention to Aegis/block spam in PvP, like god the lack of common sense is disgusting. And it Arms with baseline fast hands wouldn't even be brokenly OP.

STR Arms Def Core

Arms Def Berserker

With baseline fast hands, those builds might work AND in a non-broken state.

We don't need broken powercreep anymore, we need CHANGE that will not break the game.

Better that we have a Warrior update that doesn't affect the top builds but allow HORIZONTAL progression. Something that you people are disgustingly against without any real arguments. Call it redundant, call it worthless, but at least it isn't OP and annoying to deal with.

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > Arguments that some weapon skills have longer cooldown than 10 seconds are flawed because you don't spam all skills off cooldown. At least not as competent warrior (or in some PvE builds).

>

> Then the argument from the OP that FH should be baseline because of more 'fluid' play is also flawed, because any arguments based on 'fluid' play are related to CD's and rotations, not build variety.

>

> Put it this way ... if swapping weapons isn't about affecting rotations and the 'feel' of faster play, then this is simply a thinly veiled attempt to get access to on swap procs.

>

> I'm still not seeing the 'build diversity' argument either ... because I can say for a fact that no one is taking Discipline ONLY because of FH. Even if they nerfed FH into the ground OR made it baseline, people would STILL take Discipline. If you REALLY want to go into a build diversity argument, Anet is going to have to nerf more than just FH to make people think what else they should choose.

Gunflame Arms Defense Berserker + Rune of the Lynx? You can call it a garbage build, but at least it will be playable with baseline fast hands.

Being able to reliably play gunflame with defense tree at the cost of having lower damage (because you get rid of discipline and rune of the scholar) would be nice to have for once. If THAT isn't build variety then that's just lacking common sense because it's not ABOUT making a Warrior OP build, it should just be a different combination that might affect the playstyle.

Also? None of your arguments really favor "don't put in baseline fasthands" either because the "redundant" argument is also bad because DIFFERENT COMBINATIONS become tolerable to play but not OP. And the fact that you never provided any "OP" builds that will come out because of fast hands becoming baseline.

There is no reason to not have baseline fast hands. Literally, there is nothing bad that will happen if you make fast hands baseline.. It won't change the "already strong builds" and that baseline fast hands + Arms Defense Berserker gunflame build (as a hypothetical example of what build variety might come out) won't really do enough damage to be OP, but might be survivable enough to be useful.

But keep saying "ANET shouldn't add baseline fast hands" though, I'm 100% sure you don't have any REAL arguments as to why it shouldn't be in the game

While Necros do have a good amount of instant cast, at least they're not evade spam classes like Ranger or Mesmer where you have to pay attention to 10 million evades while paying attention to AI or instant cast.

Even though they have z-axis teleports they at least won't be spamming evades while doing it. And since plague form got nerfed and effective HP getting INDIRECTLY toned down, core Necro should be more tolerable than the other classes.

If two people attack them it should be possible to take down them down in a couple of seconds UNLESS they have a firebrand but tbh firebrand anything is kinda too strong.

I think they are more tolerable than their state in pre-HoT 2015 even because there is a lot of damage now. Pte-Hot 2015 necro was actually obnoxious to fight against if you didn't have a Mesmer or a Thief because effective HP by then had insane potential (Nowadays Carrion, Valkyrie, Paladin, etc can die within seconds). Effective HP > Invulns, but yes these things can be really annoying to fight against depending on the comp.

Though I am curious, what specific build are we talking about that might be a proble on Core Necro? I can see it's potential and the problems the OP is saying but I'd like to see what build is being talked about.

As scary as it might sound, it IS very possible that ANET will nerf fast hands if it ever becomes baseline.

Here is to hoping ANET uses their brain and do not. The only thing a 5 second baseline swap will allow is build variety. I dare ANYBODY to name me an "OP build that will come out when baseline fast hands is implemented. I'm pretty sure there is already a counterargument ready for people saying baseline fast hands is OP.

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > Mace F1 just needs to be reverted back to it's launch state (1/4 casting time low range BUT 1/1.5/2 seconds stun at level 1/2/3)

> >

> > That's it. Nobody complained about it then, and nobody will complain about it either if they revert skull crack back to it's original lauch state

>

> No one complained about it then because there were not so many stunbreaks, stability, etc.

> The main reason why mace/hammer are not very practical is because of that. Spellbreaker can somehow deal with it by removing stability, but it is still too much. Stun lock is virtually impossible nowadays against capable builds and people.

Yeah, I'm just hoping skull crack gets reverted so it has a small chance to be decent

It got nerfed because when Hambow era was around, Soldier amulet in combination with unsuspecting foe was ridiculous. So a soldier's amulet Mace build back in the day was really strong because ANET buffed the stun to 3 seconds (3.9 seconds with stun sigils, but it was bugged then so the stun sigil rounded it up to 1 full second in addition to the actual duration). They could have just reverted it back to the old 2 second at level 3 and actually fixed the stun duration sigil bug.

Those days are over though, there is no more soldier's amulet and there is a lot of ways to avoid a 1/4 second casting time on melee range assuming that skull crack would get reverted back to that. When effective HP is nerfed to somewhere reasonable, there is no reason why ANET should ever fear reverting skull crack to it's original state.

People are going to say that stripping stability is too broken though. But like when there is a lot of blocks and evades and blinds to defend vs. Mace in the first place it might not be bad.

I really would prefer that they revert the casting time to 1/4 seconds instead though along with the 2 second stun at level 3. Small changes and see if it's enough, if not then buff the damage.

Greatsword 1, melee Greatsword 4 melee. On a Mirage. And apparently it's still playable that way.

Like.....what? Who said you had to stand on a point again to win the game with a Mirage when they can bait dodges with team WITHOUT having to stand on point taking AoE damage, and then finish with a shatter? Mirage/Mesmer isn't a real melee class.

Unless you're bunker mesmer Countless style.

To be fair the double res with gyro and double stomp to secure kills is still really strong, along with converting burns into aegis with a firebrand? That's pretty much burst mitigation for the team.

Can't exactly underestimate Scrapper + Firebrand but then Firebrand anything is kinda stupid.

Scrapper by itself should be really tolerable though.

At least this map is better than when Skyhammer was first released and Spirit Watch with the bugged Tornado while carrying the orb crap. I wonder if the people who made the old skyhammer and spirit watch are still working in ANET.

Though whether to include this map in ranked or unranked is whatever to me.

Mace F1 just needs to be reverted back to it's launch state (1/4 casting time low range BUT 1/1.5/2 seconds stun at level 1/2/3)

That's it. Nobody complained about it then, and nobody will complain about it either if they revert skull crack back to it's original lauch state

Well.. at least he'll be able to play other high end games if they do come out, once he gets bored of gw2

Pretty sure this game runs on nothing though

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> Most of the warrior trait lines are pretty interchangeable depending on the situation. More damage? strength. More team support? Tactics. More sustain? Defense. More condi? Arms. No matter what kind of build you're running though things never feel right without Discipline because of Fast Hands. It's run so commonly that faster weapon swapping feels synonymous with warrior. Why is this not just included in the base warrior package by now?

>

> If you run an elite specializations that's 2/3 of our trait lines taken up by "must haves". I propose that fast hands just be part of warrior independent of traits so that it feels more open to build variation. Not having it adversely affects the flow of the profession (at least for me). Discipline would still be a strong choice without fast hands but if I choose not to run it I don't want to feel punished for it by slowing down my gameplay. I would even be fine if they increased the recharge time a tiny bit to balance out it being base line.

>

> Idea for fast hands replacement trait:

>

> Reckless Draw:

> Swap weapons, 5% bonus damage on next attack.

>

> EDIT:

> Open to ideas on the replacement skill :bleep_bloop:

Reckless Draw I like that, not OP but incentivizes you to switch weapons

We really need baseline fast hands for build variety. And there really is little to no OP build that will happen if we do get baseline fast hands.

And here I was expecting dank memes..

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > The ONLY time revenant is a hard class is if you try to go full dedicated healer with dwarf + ventari menders amulet, because you have to actually micro manage A LOT. Sad that it isn't viably balanced. DPS rev was always braindead, sure it got hard countered by conditions but it's an obnoxious evade spam class as a DPS even at beginning and now, just without a pet.

> >

> > Definitely a lesser evil than Mesmer and Ranger because no phantasms or AI and it has to dodge bait by itself, but the blind spam, evade spam, with mobility just makes it a Guardian but pretty much just as ez mode + mobility. Not really a skill shot class like grenade engi back in the day after slick shoes nerf.

> >

> > P.S When you have superspeed and evade spam, WARRIOR DOESN'T COUNTER YOU (yes by that logic even scrapper is a skill match up vs. Warrior assuming that superspeed is USED TO DODGE WARRIOR because super speed CAN outrun Warrior damage)

>

> Ah yes, warrior 120% hardest class in the game and universe, everyone else is n00b

Not what I said, I specifically said it isn't core Engi with grenades lol. That's probably the reasonably hardest thing to pull off right now (grenade engi)

Honest class = Middle ground, just balanced not the hardest (obviously) is my premise on my main

The ONLY time revenant is a hard class is if you try to go full dedicated healer with dwarf + ventari menders amulet, because you have to actually micro manage A LOT. Sad that it isn't viably balanced. DPS rev was always braindead, sure it got hard countered by conditions but it's an obnoxious evade spam class as a DPS even at beginning and now, just without a pet.

Definitely a lesser evil than Mesmer and Ranger because no phantasms or AI and it has to dodge bait by itself, but the blind spam, evade spam, with mobility just makes it a Guardian but pretty much just as ez mode + mobility. Not really a skill shot class like grenade engi back in the day after slick shoes nerf.

P.S When you have superspeed and evade spam, WARRIOR DOESN'T COUNTER YOU (yes by that logic even scrapper is a skill match up vs. Warrior assuming that superspeed is USED TO DODGE WARRIOR because super speed CAN outrun Warrior damage)