Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497
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Posts posted by Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497
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> @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go.
> > > > > > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit!
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is.
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k.
> > > > > > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ty, i do know that but he made it sound like i will hit most of the time and if once in a year i maybe wont hit my super OP beam of doom, then i am safe because i can use elite wich is soo fast, it wont ever be interrupted wich puts it on longer cd then the remaining reveal :D
> > > > > >
> > > > > > i simply dont understand how he can complain about DJ now with a stealth requirement. if you want to oneshot now you will use backstab , better damage and more reliable to hit, no reveal on fail. DJ is now more part of an active playstyle were you shortly go into stealth when m7 procs to try a burst or rather force an evade to hit more TRB after. if you just go shortly in stealth and attack with rifle in between, you got enough TRB/spotters to reflect already and can use that dodge for DJ.
> > > > > > i mean he made a post because perfectionist stacking to 25 might before a backstab was soo op before patch - now MBackstab hits way more damage without any might but no thread about it.
> > > > > Trait manipulation to get a second proc of Perfectionist is no longer possible since Perfectionist got rolled into M7.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm sure MBackstab will be a worse offender for one-shots. Feel free to start or contribute to a thread about it.
> > > >
> > > > ok so something being strong or not is not the reason for you to start a topic.
> > > > then i guess you are actually fine with DJ, just dont feel like there was a trade off for the unblockable fact.
> > > > well needing stealth imo is the trade off for unblockable and consuming malice the trade off for no ini.
> > > >
> > > > sure atleast in WvW still alot of people try to reflect/block but i think that is just habit as they got used to this for a while and they will drop this behaviour soon. because people being able to block/reflect on reaction can easily dodge it and keep the other stuff for the malice build up shots. reflecting those is more important as no hits => no malice = no beam of doom.
> > >
> > > I typically start a thread when I think something is an oversight on Anet's part. This was the case with Death's Judgment previously being able to benefit from the old malice regardless of what the deadeye had marked. It used to be possible to mark one target, build malice against it, and then get Death's Judgment's damage bonus against another, unmarked target.
> > >
> > > I think the unblockable on Death's Judgment as a Stealth Attack is an oversight since the previous Stealth Attack was unblockable and deadeye did not previously have an innately unblockable attack this strong. I could be wrong. It's entirely possible an Anet dev looked at Death's Judgment and thought the unblockable addition to be perfectly balanced. Wouldn't surprise me any as it seems like most of the players consider the deadeye rework to be inherently flawed in one fashion or another (hence the numerous threads on it in addition to Anet's own thread).
> > >
> > > I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.
> >
> > At your last point o in the patch notes they specifically stated that they made DJ Unblockable, which means they fully intended it to be so. Patch notes am I right?#rc
> >
> > >Death's Judgment: This attack's initiative cost has been removed, and it has moved to become the stealth attack for rifles. *It is now unblockable and consumes all malice when the thief strikes their marked target*. Reduced the casting time by about 0.25 seconds.
>
> Anet's intentions don't always play out well in the actual game. I'm not saying they're not aware that it's unblockable now; I'm saying I don't think they've fully considered the impact of making it unblockable.
Pretty sure they did
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> @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf.
> > > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes)
> > > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells.
> > > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice.
> > > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not)
> > > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal)
> > > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam.
> > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said:
> > > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction
> > > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile.
> > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go.
> > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is.
> > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k.
> > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight.
> > > > >
> > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld.
> > > >
> > > > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight.
> > > >
> > > > Also to cancel DJ you need to dodge roll, which burns a defense. DJ also reveals you... So... You then need to bust an elite.
> > > >
> > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf.
> > > > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes)
> > > > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells.
> > > > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice.
> > > > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Gained Unblockable.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not)
> > > > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal)
> > > > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam.
> > > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said:
> > > > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction
> > > > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile.
> > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go.
> > > > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is.
> > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k.
> > > > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld.
> > > > >
> > > > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess?
> > > >
> > > > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge.
> > >
> > > Stowing your weapon will also cancel the shot without any malice lost. You do still get the Revealed.
> >
> > Stowing is risky, I've done it before. Can't use weapon skills till animation is over. With dodging while you waste a defense, you're protected for the duration. And if you have dodge benefits at least you get something
>
> you can use ESC
Wait what. You can?!
-
> @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.
> > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf.
> > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes)
> > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells.
> > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice.
> > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gained Unblockable.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let’s look at your claims:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not)
> > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal)
> > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up)
> > > > > >
> > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay.
> > > > >
> > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam.
> > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said:
> > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction
> > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile.
> > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go.
> > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill.
> > > > > >
> > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is.
> > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k.
> > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight.
> > >
> > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld.
> >
> > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight.
> >
> > Also to cancel DJ you need to dodge roll, which burns a defense. DJ also reveals you... So... You then need to bust an elite.
> >
> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf.
> > > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes)
> > > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells.
> > > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice.
> > > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gained Unblockable.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let’s look at your claims:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not)
> > > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal)
> > > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam.
> > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said:
> > > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction
> > > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile.
> > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go.
> > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is.
> > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k.
> > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight.
> > > >
> > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld.
> > >
> > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess?
> >
> > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge.
>
> Stowing your weapon will also cancel the shot without any malice lost. You do still get the Revealed.
Stowing is risky, I've done it before. Can't use weapon skills till animation is over. With dodging while you waste a defense, you're protected for the duration. And if you have dodge benefits at least you get something
-
> @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.
> > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > >
> > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > >
> > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.).
> > > >
> > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is.
> > > >
> > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch:
> > > >
> > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf.
> > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes)
> > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells.
> > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice.
> > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent.
> > > >
> > > > Gained Unblockable.
> > > >
> > > > Let’s look at your claims:
> > > >
> > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not)
> > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal)
> > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up)
> > > >
> > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay.
> > >
> > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam.
> > >
> >
> > Nope it doesn’t promote spam since one, DJ doesn’t use Initiative outside of building Malice and since you can’t use DJ since without the use of other skills or even get the best damage potential from it with out using a minimum of 4 attack (with crits) or maximum of 7 skills (without crits).
> >
> > Yeah so spammable, might want to look up the definition of spammable in regards to Video Games.
> >
> > Yeah it’s super clear what the issue is.
> >
>
> If your deadeye build doesn't crit after using 7 weapon skills, you might want to reconsider your gear/trait choices. If using Malicious Intent (the other two are trash for PvP/WvW) then only 3 crits are needed to reach 7 stacks of malice for the ini refund from the new M7. Stealth is not much of a gate for Death's Judgment considering deadeye's access to stealth.
>
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.
> > > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf.
> > > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes)
> > > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells.
> > > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice.
> > > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Gained Unblockable.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let’s look at your claims:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not)
> > > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal)
> > > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up)
> > > > > >
> > > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay.
> > > > >
> > > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam.
> > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said:
> > > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You forgot projectile destruction
> > > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile.
> > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go.
> > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill.
> > > > > >
> > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is.
> > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k.
> > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight.
> > >
> > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld.
> >
> > Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other kitten we have to fight.
>
> I posted the thread on the thief forum because it's where the thread would've ended up anyway. As far as thief mains disagreeing because they can't block or reflect, daredevil has a good block. And the trick elite has a much lower cooldown than it previously did as far as reflects go.
Ooooh wooow. Such a good point! A single block in utility for an elite profession that can be used once a bluemoon, and not at all when anything other than daredevil. It's such a stroooooong point of the kit. And not the three dodges on endurance, and two on staff, and dodge traits, and rune for critbon dodge. Amazing argument!
> @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go.
> > > > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is.
> > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k.
> > > > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight.
> > > >
> > > > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld.
> > >
> > > because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess?
> >
> > 45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge.
>
> ty, i do know that but he made it sound like i will hit most of the time and if once in a year i maybe wont hit my super OP beam of doom, then i am safe because i can use elite wich is soo fast, it wont ever be interrupted wich puts it on longer cd then the remaining reveal :D
>
> i simply dont understand how he can complain about DJ now with a stealth requirement. if you want to oneshot now you will use backstab , better damage and more reliable to hit, no reveal on fail. DJ is now more part of an active playstyle were you shortly go into stealth when m7 procs to try a burst or rather force an evade to hit more TRB after. if you just go shortly in stealth and attack with rifle in between, you got enough TRB/spotters to reflect already and can use that dodge for DJ.
> i mean he made a post because perfectionist stacking to 25 might before a backstab was soo op before patch - now MBackstab hits way more damage without any might but no thread about it.
People will always complain about us and make us aound more powerful than what we actually are
-
> @"Justin Duval.1954" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > @"Urejt.5648" said:
> > > FIX ASAP!
> > >
> > > I suggest** removing stealth cooldown** from silent scope since dodges are very limited anyway.
> > >
> > > Also **insta reveal problem** has to be fixed. I suggest to make it **stealth mid dodge** or slightly later after dodge start.
> >
> > Heart is in the right place but no. Acrobatics DE with swords will be able to get real cheap stealth, and can abuse the hell out of it. It will eventually become Unhindered Combatant all over again.
> >
> > It's 10secs to passively get dodge again. It's 7 with vigor. And 5 with acrobatics. Sword is already nasty with rune of daredevil. We don't want another reason to get nerfed.
>
> Silent Scope only effects Rifle.
>
> > @"Grandtomatoe.2045" said:
> > If they just move the stealth to the very end of the dodge roll all your projectiles should have hit already and you should be in stealth.
>
> Good suggestion but while it may fix Silent Scope it wouldn't fix stealth from other moves being broken by auto-attack.
Does it? Good to know.
A likely patch would be to record if a projectile was fired when cloaked or not. Or to not treat rifles auto as a stealth breaker.
-
> @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.
> > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > >
> > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > >
> > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.).
> > > >
> > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is.
> > > >
> > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch:
> > > >
> > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf.
> > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes)
> > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells.
> > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice.
> > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent.
> > > >
> > > > Gained Unblockable.
> > > >
> > > > Let’s look at your claims:
> > > >
> > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not)
> > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal)
> > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up)
> > > >
> > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay.
> > >
> > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam.
> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said:
> > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight
> > > >
> > > > You forgot projectile destruction
> > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile.
> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > >
> > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go.
> > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit!
> > > >
> > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > >
> > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong).
> > > >
> > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill.
> > > >
> > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is.
> > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > >
> > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo.
> > > >
> > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k.
> > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable.
> > >
> >
> > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight.
>
> From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld.
Let me help you understand something. You're on a board of thieves, mostly mains, saying that dodging is not enough. When it is pretty much the only defense we have and ever use. Against all the other shit we have to fight.
Also to cancel DJ you need to dodge roll, which burns a defense. DJ also reveals you... So... You then need to bust an elite.
> @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.
> > > > > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > >
> > > > > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.).
> > > > >
> > > > > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is.
> > > > >
> > > > > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch:
> > > > >
> > > > > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf.
> > > > > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes)
> > > > > Still has all original large and obvious Tells.
> > > > > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice.
> > > > > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gained Unblockable.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let’s look at your claims:
> > > > >
> > > > > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not)
> > > > > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal)
> > > > > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up)
> > > > >
> > > > I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay.
> > > >
> > > > As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam.
> > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > > > @"Urejt.5648" said:
> > > > > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight
> > > > >
> > > > > You forgot projectile destruction
> > > > Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile.
> > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > > >
> > > > > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go.
> > > > > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit!
> > > > >
> > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > >
> > > > > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong).
> > > > >
> > > > > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill.
> > > > >
> > > > I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is.
> > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo.
> > > > >
> > > > > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k.
> > > > This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable.
> > > >
> > >
> > > And what's wrong with dodging or breaking line of sight.
> >
> > From the deadeye perspective: what's wrong with having to be aware of when an opponent is blocking/reflecting? Death's Judgment, like any skill with a cast time, can be cancelled before completion. No malice is lost when it's cancelled and deadeye can remove the self-reveal from the skill if running Shadow Meld.
>
> because the bullet is really fast and shadow meld has only 5 second cooldown i guess?
45 for a charge to come back. 5 to use a charge.
-
> @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > Simply put, this change to Death's Judgment has removed much of the counterplay possible against the skill (blocks/reflects/projectile destruction). It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game. Other unblockables (Mirror Blade and Larcenous Strike) have seen their damage reduced in recent patches, and there is no other unblockable Stealth Attack.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If the point of the skill's tells (the laser and the sound effects) is to encourage counterplay, then the existent counterplay in the game for projectiles should actually be viable against it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Fun fact Rifle Stealth attack has always been Unblockable, when they changed the Cursed Bullet to DJ it received a significant damage nerf, it still retains all of its extremely large and obvious tells to promote counter play which there is still a lot of in game, and to even build up Malice it requires active non stealth camping gameplay.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Also DJ isn’t even the Hardest hitting Unblockable skill in game as you claim, so yeah there’s that.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sounds like lots of l2p to be completely honest.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You're right: Cursed Bullet was unblockable. Sounds like they copied Death's Judgment over to the Stealth Attack without considering whether or not the unblockable nature should be kept. As to the hardest hitting unblockable, there's this list: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable. It has not been updated for the patch, but the patch did not add any other unblockables. Of that list, what skill there even approaches the damage of Death's Judgment?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Unblockables have been seeing damage nerfs in WvW/PvP lately. For it to do the damage it does, Death's Judgment should not be on that list of unblockables.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So since you keep stating that DJ is the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, why don’t you go through that list you will find one with a 3.0 modifier, now I’m no mathematician but I’m pretty confident that 3.0 is much higher than 1.65, but hey those are the simple facts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And do do any respectable damage DJ requires Malice, and lets not forget it self reveals before damage and has so many large and obvious tells, and took a very large damage Nerf with this patch and now it requires the Thief to be Stealthed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So far 2 for 2 claims have been debunked as false.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sorry, my initial post was meant to specify _weapon_ skills. Yes, Prime Light Beam is an unblockable elite with a 3.0 modifier. I've been talking weapon skills all along (Rapid Fire, Kill Shot, Gunflame, Unload, Mirror Blade, Larcenous Strike).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> > > > > > > > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > > > > > > Based on OP's post history he solely plays SoulBeast. I bet he thinks it's OK to do unblockable 8k auto attacks (don't forget rapid fires!) from 1800+ range on a fairly low cooldown. (Oh they pierce, too). Please stop calling the kettle black, OP.
> > > > > > > I don't solely play soulbeast. My post history doesn't even suggest that as I've posted about holosmith, weaver, and deadeye also. My deadeye build is nonexistent after this rework (one of the traits got removed entirely), but that has nothing to do with this thread.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In any of your posts on the matter you never specified Weapon skills you just kept claiming skills, words mean things, so again even for an Unblockable Weapon Skill it isn’t even the highest damage coefficient there is one with a higher coefficient called Phoenix that is Unblockable, and again the fact that it requires the use of Stealth which can be stripped, has a innately small window of opportunity to use the skill and requires Malice to do any meaningful damage on top of all of the large and obvious Visual/Audio tells that provide so many opportunities for counterplay, it’s not even remotely OP.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So again so far all the complaints in your Op have been refuted and debunked.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It sounds like a extremely simple case of l2p.
> > > > > Much of the counterplay has been stripped away simply by the skill being unblockable. That's the entire point of this thread. Go back through and re-read as to why Death's Judgment is capable of being spammed after the patch. I'm not going to repeat what I and others have said for you ad nauseam.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > No only 2 forms of counterplay have been removed from it ie blocks and reflects/destroy but it now has the added counterplay of Reveal, and still has all of the other counterplay available from dodges, invulns, pseudo invulns, etc and again now it requires stealth to even use which innately has a very small window of opportunity, it received a very significant damage reduction etc, and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> > > >
> > > > Again this boils down to an extremely simple case of l2p.
> > >
> > > Blocks, reflects, and projectile destruction include a very long list of skills (rifle deadeye even got a projectile destruction with this rework). It's not a small amount of counterplay.
> > >
> > > As for the "l2p" claim, what I play has nothing to do with this thread.
> >
> > Again They had two types of counterplay removed (since reflect and destroy are essentially the same thing for all intents and purposes as a defense)and added another type of counterplay to it, and again since it requires stealth which innately has a very low window of opportunity to utilize the skill, and the fact that it isn’t even spammable (another debunked claim since it consumes all Malice upon striking the marked target.).
> >
> > I never stated anything on what you play, I just stated it’s clearly a case l2p which it is.
> >
> > So again let’s look at the facts of the change with this patch:
> >
> > Received a 15-21% Damage Nerf.
> > Requires Stealth to Use (can be stripped by majority of classes)
> > Still has all original large and obvious Tells.
> > Requires Initiative based attacks to build Malice, no longer passive gaining of Malice.
> > Consumes all Malice on striking opponent.
> >
> > Gained Unblockable.
> >
> > Let’s look at your claims:
> >
> > Highest damage Unblockable Skill(it’s not)
> > Majority of the counterplay removed(not quite still has the majority of the originals ie Dodge, Evades, Invulns, Pseudo Invulns, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, Stealth, LoS. And it has added counterplay of Reveal)
> > Spammable(it’s not since it consumes Malice upon hitting target, and Malice needs to be built back up)
> >
> I never said a _majority_ of the counterplay. I said _much_ of the counterplay.
>
> As far as malice gain goes, yes it does reward spam with the new M7 refunding most of the ini spent on that spam.
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > @"Urejt.5648" said:
> > > Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight
> >
> > You forgot projectile destruction
> Projectile destruction has no effect on an unblockable projectile.
> > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:
> > > and it isn’t even spammable since it requires the build up of Malice which only happens from using Initiative skills on opponents and it drains all Malice when it strikes opponents, and it’s not even the highest hitting Unblockable skill as you claim.
> >
> > carefull someone will come and tell you how OP MI is to build up for a DJ as it doesnt require attacking and you dont lose malice if you dont successfully hit ;). preperation for the fight = 2 min and then lets go.
> > and because it is sooo strong many will do that, just like all the 100s of DEs going for MBackstab without leaving stealth before the hit!
> >
> > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > As to soulbeast, longbow doesn't pierce innately. If you're seeing piercing shots from a longbow, it's a ranger with longbow traited through Marksmanship. There's also nothing innately unblockable on longbow. Soulbeast does have a lot of unblockable uptime through Unstoppable Union, Signet of the Hunt, and Call of the Wild (the warhorn skill), and you're welcome to go post about that uptime in the ranger forum.
> >
> > ok so the problem is the unblockable attached to DJ.. i would love to give that up for a trait making us unblockable during reveal to give us even more reason to play in and out of stealth style ( maybe instead of MI, because that trait is soooo strong).
> >
> > if you were trying to reflect/block DJ, that was already stupid before the patch as the DE can use basi venom for that one skill.
> >
> I already made the point that a deadeye should have to use basi to have an unblockable Death's Judgment. A deadeye running basi is one who's sacrificed the ability to remove reveal for that unblockable. Trade-offs through traits or through utilities/elites are not the issue here. Death's Judgment being given as a free unblockable is.
> > @"Turk.5460" said:
> > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:
> > > Death's Judgment does require malice for its bigger hits, and I've no issues with its damage. It doesn't need to be unblockable.
> >
> > Yes. Yes it does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about - at this point you're just whining because you got a big boo-boo.
> >
> > A Death's Judgement with no Malice from a Thief in Marauder's gear will crit for 6k-8k.
> This thread has nothing to with my personal ability or inability to counter rifle deadeyes. The point is that much of the counterplay has been removed simply by Death's Judgment being an innate unblockable.
>
And what's wrong with dodging, interrupts, or breaking line of sight.
-
> @"Omnicron.2467" said:
> I was enjoying this as a boon-share build in WvW, now I dunno what my role is in zergs
To fuck people up
-
> @"Urejt.5648" said:
> FIX ASAP!
>
> I suggest** removing stealth cooldown** from silent scope since dodges are very limited anyway.
>
> Also **insta reveal problem** has to be fixed. I suggest to make it **stealth mid dodge** or slightly later after dodge start.
Heart is in the right place but no. Acrobatics DE with swords will be able to get real cheap stealth, and can abuse the hell out of it. It will eventually become Unhindered Combatant all over again.
It's 10secs to passively get dodge again. It's 7 with vigor. And 5 with acrobatics. Sword is already nasty with rune of daredevil. We don't want another reason to get nerfed.
-
Kinda a shame that players find DEs burst unfair, with everything other classes can do a Thief can't.
-
Doesn't spotters shot grant +20% crit chance? It helps reduce the cost. But If you aren't going power, your damage is probably coming g from a different source.
-
I'm confused. How is this a bug?
-
> @"Tashigi.3159" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > We can automatically assume the DPS is lower. The changes weren't trying to improve this.
> There is no assuming, generally speaking every single Deadeye spec/weapon combination that I've tested (Except for D/D) received a damage reduction due to the change in Malice and the shuffling of traits. But more specific to Rifle, the change to Death Judgement.
I'm fine with it to be honest. I don't raid with public players, just ten coworkers who do what they please. And the changes made it a lot more fun in PvP.
Some of the sneak attacks I would change however. I like how the bow shatters. I like the backstab hitting like a C130 nose diving. Sword I'm questioning. But pistol could be different.
PvE wise. It's not bad in T4. Dungeons are not bad. You'll get ROFLSTOMP in CSM however by that ball game. And Mai Trin... We don't talk about.
-
> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:
> The math is correct - you're not accounting for initiative regeneration and cast times.
>
> Unless under the effects of quickness, passive initiative regeneration will cover the remaining initiative while making those three attacks as this requires 1.5s for the three attacks without accounting for precast and aftercast delays or the animation to acquire stealth and cast DJ which is free. Aside from some kind of Haste + Blinding Powder combo, there's physically no way for a thief to not regen its initiative to max from M7 with Skirmisher's Shot. Even if using DT as a source, if using SScope, there are .75*3+.75 = 3s of animations without account for pre-cast/aftercast delays from skill use alone which sets the thief back a whopping... 2 initiative at the end with M7. That's assuming DT is just completely spammed with zero attack delay. So the thief after the DJ is <= 1 initiative actually spent using M7's recovery.
>
> So all we've really concluded here is that unless you can negate all of the damage leading up to closing in on the thief, it can max malice every 4s, ignores single blocks and blinds via DT as far as gaining malice goes, and doesn't need to kneel for any purpose while still out-pacing the rotation on every build in the game that doesn't have permanent vigor with an unblockable nuke.
>
> It's extremely poorly-thought-out and offers way, way less counterplay than prior.
You were not including passive regeneration. But placing passive regeneration into the assumption makes me curious if you have ever played thief. There's a very good reason why our builds are so limited. And it's because trickery gives a few more points of ini, and ini restore on steal. Even then, we have to be careful.
If you depend on your passive regeneration, and you run out you will find that people will brutally punish you for it higher up the ladder.
-
> @"Urejt.5648" said:
> Blind, evade, indestructible, reflect, limne of sight
You forgot projectile destruction
-
We can automatically assume the DPS is lower. The changes weren't trying to improve this
-
> @"Xenofly.9321" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > @"Xenofly.9321" said:
> > > They literally killed DE in PvP. Can't find a build worth to take ot.
> >
> > Get good buddy. The change are freaking awesome.
>
> Get constructive buddy, otherwise i can the same about you.
I am working on getting good! So thanks :D
-
> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:
> It may be less-spammy but in no way is it not spammy in general. OP's point is absolutely valid.
>
> M7 refunds the initiative (cost) of the three attacks needed to actually get the max malice and stealth sources (dodge) on thief match that or exceed that of most other professions via SoA and boons gained via Vigor from hitting max stacks with M7.
>
> It wouldn't be so big of a problem if M7 didn't refund initiative or if TRB also did crazy damage. But TRB is a style of play some wanted to opt for, and even that was basically removed entirely.
>
> DJ has way more opportunities to be casted and way fewer opportunities to be shut down than prior with good play by the opponent. And of course, MBackstab is completely out of hand.
>
>
I respect that. But you're a bit off with the reasoning. Remember that the thief still needs to beef up the attack, and to do so deal damage with initiative.
The main problem is that not all of thiefs skills ever land. And if they have a second part, that is almost never guranteed. And assuming they do land they must deal damage. Blocked skills will not contribute to malice generation. As for how quickly thief can build it, it is never in the thief's interest to spam his attacks in quick succession unless they are sure it will kill.
The math is a bit off too. M7 will not refund 3 attacks. Assuming thief successfully lands three skills, it will only refund 2 skills. The minimum for thief's damaging abilities is 3. The highest is 6 or 5.
So 2 skills and 1 ini. Or 2 skills. Or two skills and a deficit. You need at minimum three skills that hit twice and one skill. Or seven skills.
Assuming minimum cost 24 initiative in total
Assuming highest 35.
And that's if all skills land.
If you're not a thief main, let me tell you this. You don't have a lot of init. You certainly don't have enough to facetoll 1-5. It comes back slowly. It is your defense (active), it is your outplay, it is your damage, it is your combos, it is your utility, and it is your mobility. If you run out, you're a dead thief. And you -will- burn it up fast.
You can severely delay how quickly a thief can ramp up damage and even force them to deplete their malice early.
Remember also that thieves tend to use their skills heavily for utility. More than any other class infact, so this heavily effects their ability to generate malice. Their actual utilities are more on the lines of very situational game changers.
If the thief is able to be that aggressive, have weakened defences, and stay alive, he should be rewarded greatly
TLDR: it's more expensive than you think for thief to charge M7. You got a while before a thief can attempt to nuke you hard.
-
> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:
> > @"Tails.9372" said:
> > > @"RicochetXD.4128" said:
> > > people have been complaining about the new DE mechanics since they launched. They don't work. They're broken. There's pages and pages of reasons on it.
> > >
> > > And we haven't heard a peep from you.
> > People have been complaining about how underperforming P/P is for years and did they ever respond to any of the complaints? Or even explain any of the more questionable changes like the removal of the ricochet trait? Exactly, don't be suprised if it's the same thing here.
> >
> >
>
> Actually, they've probably directly addressed complaints around P/P more than any other kit in the game to be honest. Particularly since HoT. AA increase, Unload damage increase, boon gains, initiative cost reduction... a lot.
>
> D/D and SA have needed reworks literally since 2012.
>
> The issue is that in most cases, they've either addressed the wrong ones or because of how the weapon skills work there's basically nothing to do without a total re-design of the weapons. In which case, that requires redesign to basically every thief weapon, which we all know for damned sure people would freak out about if suddenly something became less viable. Especially D/P. Remember when HS got its distance normalized and the camera angle bug fixed? Complaints everywhere!
>
> And to be honest, a lot of people, myself included, despite not being PvE particpants, are disagreeing with a number of the changes and the changes overall because the implementation is really just silly. All it did was move one problem to a different weapon set, make it even more of a problem than it was before, and make both problems have even less counterplay.
>
> The **intent** was good. The **implementation** is horrible.
Your also excluding those who enjoy the changes, which is a lot as well. At this point Anets best option is to give the rework a few months and QoL improvements before reevaluating.
Though honestly, I love the way DE is now, more so than DD. In some aspects, DE is objectively worse. But it's a lot more fun and engaging to play - which matters more. And lastly, the changes actually opened up far more build options than thief has had before.
You can even comfortably leave trickery behind for something else.
-
You do understand that Thief can no longer spam a instadeath bullet now, right? It being unlockable makes the skill far more reliable and fair for the thief to use now. Not to mention it needs to built up again after use.
If you want counter play, dodge, take cover, reveal the thief before he strikes (people apparently forgot they got skills to reveal cloaked enemies...) or use projectile hate. Thief can't spam aegis, block, barrier, reflect, or whatever like everyone else.
-
> @"JonnyForgotten.4276" said:
> > @"Bezerker.2379" said:
> > My issue is that I did NOT play a stealth rifle build. I played an unforgiving rifle stun build. My gameplay changed drastically.
> >
> > The only issue I have with this patch is sword's stealth attack from DE is terrible. The only time I would want to use it is when I want toregen endurance so i can swap back to rifle and dodge stealth for DJ, but using it will eat all my malice anyway. *tableflip*
>
> In the same boat as you mate. Losing Unforgiving was an absolute kick in the teeth for my s/p stunlocker build. . . perhaps if they brought that back, I could work around the other changes.
Take acrobatics with sword pistol or sword dagger. It becomes a very strong dueling set with dodge for days.
Using a rune that restores endurance on swap is a good idea too.
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> @"Xenofly.9321" said:
> They literally killed DE in PvP. Can't find a build worth to take ot.
Get good buddy. The change are freaking awesome.
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> @"Tashigi.3159" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > Sure there's a lot of those. But my static doesn't want to bother with meta. Raids were supposed to be challenging, and we're advertised as putting your skills to the test. So that's just what we did. You'll be surprised to hear that low boon uptime doesn't mean you're dying a lot. If you're dying a lot it just means you need to figure out what's going wrong and fix it. Our biggest problem was damage aura, which is why we all carry some healing power and some group healing.
>
> Boon uptime is tied to your damage IE maximun stacks of Might (25) and Fury/Quickness/Ala, etc.
> This isn't meta build talk, either. This is mostly common sense. If it was meta talk, as Thieves, we wouldn't get a say, because the Thief class is not and has not been meta for a long time in raids or CM (These changes to DE only fortify that belief now). Only condi DD is kinda meta for specific fights and I can see power DE with D/D sort of replacing the old Rifle DE; but why bother with that when you can get a Holosmith or just about any other class? At least that would be the meta mentality anyway.
>
> I get the whole know the fight thing.
> But a group that knows mechanics AND has boon uptime/heals will always outdo one that lacks either or by a lot. That's my point.
>
>
Eh, this is where I say the old addage, people do as they please. I don't like GW2s meta. I don't like how it sucks away the challenge when you get the boss down. I don't like how most players feel the need to stuff it down your throat, and I don't like how you're not always able to play the class you want. That's why my coworkers and I spent a week building a buggy as hell overlay rather than go with the meta and get a fire brand, Chrono, or what ever.
Would life be easier if we did take a fire brand? Sure. Do we want to? Not really.
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> @"Tashigi.3159" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > If you kill a raid boss while making it unnecessarily difficult for yourself, wouldn't you be better than most of the player base?
>
> No, you wouldn't.
> You are just gimping your group by doing that. There is plenty of Druids/Chronos/Support Tempest, Scourge, Firebrands, etc out there. Give them a place in your group and stop dying unnecessarily while having abysmally low boon uptime and low DPS.
> If you're doing it for kitten and giggles, sure. But times have changed, we're not running COF/COE with a full group of zerk Ele/Warriors anymore. Well, maybe some people are, but not most.
>
Sure there's a lot of those. But my static doesn't want to bother with meta. Raids were supposed to be challenging, and we're advertised as putting your skills to the test. So that's just what we did. You'll be surprised to hear that low boon uptime doesn't mean you're dying a lot. If you're dying a lot it just means you need to figure out what's going wrong and fix it. Our biggest problem was damage aura, which is why we all carry some healing power and some group healing.
Not going to lie though. I don't recommend it if you don't have any organization... We built an overlay from haxe cocktail, html, JavaScript, Lua, and windows API. All it does is it tracks who used what skill based on keybindings, and I forms the next player who's turn it is to drop a party heal skill.
Death's Judgment Should Not Be Unblockable
in Thief
Posted
> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:
> > > The math is correct - you're not accounting for initiative regeneration and cast times.
> > >
> > > Unless under the effects of quickness, passive initiative regeneration will cover the remaining initiative while making those three attacks as this requires 1.5s for the three attacks without accounting for precast and aftercast delays or the animation to acquire stealth and cast DJ which is free. Aside from some kind of Haste + Blinding Powder combo, there's physically no way for a thief to not regen its initiative to max from M7 with Skirmisher's Shot. Even if using DT as a source, if using SScope, there are .75*3+.75 = 3s of animations without account for pre-cast/aftercast delays from skill use alone which sets the thief back a whopping... 2 initiative at the end with M7. That's assuming DT is just completely spammed with zero attack delay. So the thief after the DJ is <= 1 initiative actually spent using M7's recovery.
> > >
> > > So all we've really concluded here is that unless you can negate all of the damage leading up to closing in on the thief, it can max malice every 4s, ignores single blocks and blinds via DT as far as gaining malice goes, and doesn't need to kneel for any purpose while still out-pacing the rotation on every build in the game that doesn't have permanent vigor with an unblockable nuke.
> > >
> > > It's extremely poorly-thought-out and offers way, way less counterplay than prior.
> >
> > You were not including passive regeneration. But placing passive regeneration into the assumption makes me curious if you have ever played thief. There's a very good reason why our builds are so limited. And it's because trickery gives a few more points of ini, and ini restore on steal. Even then, we have to be careful.
> >
> > If you depend on your passive regeneration, and you run out you will find that people will brutally punish you for it higher up the ladder.
>
> Are you serious right now?
>
> Are you really trying to claim that passive initiative regen is irrelevant when making arguments about initiative costs and refunding and that my math when talking about net costs under the case of spam was incorrect because I did not forward my initial message by including the obvious pragmatic variable of natural recovery and cast times... AKA how the entire profession works at every level, spec, and concept?
>
> And then to have the audacity to make the claim that me, of all people, has never played the thief before?
>
> It's okay to admit you're wrong. Sometimes I am wrong and I admit when I am. A number of prominent posters and I have disagreed. Sometimes I am wrong when approaching bugs or there's some nuance happening behind the scenes. This happened in the DJ thread with MUDse and there was an odd nuance not fully understood or realized by either of us when we ran opposing tests. But your post has nothing to do with anything discussed, and M7 and initiative recovery in the DE has nothing to do with Trickery when talking about pressure potential and counterplay options by measure of units of time in comparing resources. I did the math out for the absolute lowest-level play scenario for the demonstration of the most extreme case, with no worry of incoming interrupts or fakes or delayed casts or anything just to show how few resources are actually net-spent via this trait. That math is literally just the result of what would occur from mashing the sequence of keys necessary to generate max malice and rotating a DJ as soon as it's physically possible. And that math says this style of play is basically resource-less, allowing way more freedom to expend the resources in other ways.
>
> The only thieves who aren't mindful of passive initiative regeneration are ones who spam or use predictable rotations and don't think about anything happening beyond the current second. They do not think about where the fight will be one, two, five seconds from now, or where their resources will be. They do not track cooldowns. They do not track passives. They do not track boons and ability durations. Players not thinking of these things are not good players. The common denominator has fallen over the years with the influx of overly-complex mechanics and lots of anti-punishment mechanics and powercreep, but it does not change the fact that these are the roots of skilled play. Any pro player. Any play-by-play video guide and walkthrough from the best thieves. Anything pertinent to PvP in any game at all, will promote with certain veracity that resource management and tracking is paramount to winning. Not doing so may fly with free stealth and resets and most FoTM builds at a low level of play, but that doesn't work with anyone not playing innately safe builds into skilled opponents. And I do not play said safe builds and I think anyone who's been here long enough knows damned well I don't play safe builds.
>
> Please. Save yourself the bother with ad hominem attacks.
>
Can I get a tldr. Don't take it personally. But I don't care if you insult me or take anything as an attack. But the starting sentence of each paragraph tells me your entire post is a rant to make me look/feel bad or what ever. reduce it to three sentences.