Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

Unless you can backstab, or land all three of the attack chain for dagger, you're not getting value out of it. I'd recommend taking sword, and acrobatics. Acrobatics gives you the ability to temporarily reduce the damage of that stupid nerf every 5secs. Gives you a much needed evadsion recharge speed up that's pretty much permanent. Speed boost after every dodge. And some sustains. Sword's 3 when paired with dagger has both unblockable with boon stripping and extra damage against targets without boons - plus 1/2 evasion. Sword 3 with Pistol gives you a stun, a cheap burst of damage, and 1/2 sec evasion. The third hit from sword auto applies weakness (50% fumble). And it also provides a decent engage and disengage function, where the disengage cleans one condition from you. You also get an immediate steal recharge for evading an attack successfully every 30 seconds.

Taking Dagger with sword gives you a ranged cripple that hits hard and up to three targets, and can bounce back on the same target. Good for chasing or just out right making yourself harder to catch. It also provides quick access to stealth.

Taking Pistol with sword gives you black powder blind, not the easiest to abuse without dagger main. It also gives you a ranged interrupt.

The stealth attack for Sword applies daze for 2secs and blind for 5secs. So... you no longer have to worry about hitting someone from behind. You just cloak and slap them in the face immediately.

Anet clearly is trying to remove power builds, and turn fighting towards sustained practices. But thief reeeaally doesn't do well in that environment. this has been working well for me. But I'm not sure if I even want to go back into PvP this season, because these changes are just pure bullshit.

I don't know if I trust anything from EU in general. It's a salt mine where people are unwilling to make one tiny change to deal with something that's easily dealt with.

> @"Doo Lally.8594" said:

> Yes, the subject line poses a subjective question but it's an honest one in that I'd like to know what current Deadeyes enjoy about w1aplaying that spec in WvW.

>

> I sometimes roam on my S/D Daredevil. I'm not very good but it can be an enjoyable break from zerging. However, it takes longer to gain experience, Pips, reward track xp etc.

>

> Deadeye gameplay is all about setup, stealth and patience. Surely it takes a considerable amount of time to amass any XP or other rewards (yup - assuming you play for rewards which I know many hardcore WvW'ers profess not to).

>

> I'd like to try out Deadeye in WvW but am concerned I'd be spending 90% of my time twiddling my thumbs trying to stay hidden or chasing a single enemy across the map without much to show for it.

>

> Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

>

> Cheers.

When you take time to get good at Deadeye like the rest of us. You'll come to learn that the setup is hardly ever something that takes forever.

Deadeye is fun in both ranged combat and as a core thief build. I've never had a problem chasing an enemy down and killing them, even if they decided to run. I've rarely sat around for 7-10seconds hidden to charge up my malice. I just go in man. And I go in hard. In fact, it's generally easier to just go in on a player the moment you mark them instead of waiting for the full malice. Why? Because you're not giving them a chance to react and you're forcing everything onto cool down before that moment you start hitting like a god dang freight train going FTL.

When WvWing... I usually take a melee heavy build. And this is going to sound odd, but I will generally take Acrobatics, and Trickery, or Acrobatics and Shadow Arts. Acrobatics is particularly nice because it undos some of the damage caused by thief's most recent absurd nerfs (Thanks ANET).

I'm a very in your face sort of person. Shadow Arts provides a massive amount of well needed survivability for Core Thief and Deadeye, that it's honestly worth taking over critical strikes. When you combine it with Trickery or Shadow Arts and take Iron sights it becomes very hard for other people to even duel you.

So... If I'm not doing a lot of damage to ruin their day... they're not doing a lot of damage to me, and I am recovering health periodically while their damage is reduced against me by 15% or more.

Killing blows and kiting is usually done with rifle. Unfortunately, thief is not intended to do sustained fighting. Yet that's where the current meta is leaning towards. And you'll feel it in this build if you do not ration your initiative. There's still a special place in the salt mines for who ever thought of these most recent thief changes.

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > You want damage? Play staff and assa signet. Oh you can't stealth or teleport anymore and lost agility signet condi cleanse and endurance gain? Deal with it!

> > You want more burst than dagger or sword gives you? Run P/P second weapon set! Oh you can't SB5 anymore to reset after every misplay? Deal with it!

> > L2P the kitten game!

>

> Wow, superiority complex much?

>

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > Because core thief doesn't have the mobility to just disengage outside of short bow.

> > ...

> > DD has the bulk of thief's mitigation by providing the only on demand block in thief's kit. The replacement for Felines Grace after it was ripped out of core thief.

> > ...

> > If you can't kill a thief and want to blame it on mobility or their ability to avoid damage without ninty percent of the junk others have, you got horribly out played.

>

> ^ This.

>

> I don't have either expansion. I'm limited to Core Thief. I don't have a single block. I don't have 3 dodges. I don't have x/P Stealth outside of D/P. I don't have Staff. I don't have Rifle. I don't have Malice. I don't have Pulmonary Impact.

>

> I've built for full "sustain" to be able to fight in PvP. There's wasn't much sustain to begin with before HoT, and it has only gotten worse.

> I've built for full damage to be able to fight in PvP. It used to have decent effectiveness before HoT, but it doesn't anymore.

> And yes, I've even run without the mobility of Shortbow, but my lethality didn't improve, and my sustain actually dropped.

>

> I'm still wondering who came up with the Thief design in this game. The only thing it was good at was being a glass cannon in melee. However, in today's AoE-spamfest, just entering into melee range can very well be a death sentence. And why a burst from P/P should even compare to one from D/x, I have no idea.

>

> I'm a very aggressive Thief. I build for damage. I go DA/CS/T, usually D/P. I used to run Berserker or Assassin. I'm not a Stealth camper. I go for kills.

> What I discovered is that my glass cannon shot tennis balls against all of the passives in the game. My D/P doesn't protect me from duration AoE's or multi-attack skills or Stability or immunities. I can't even take Bountiful Theft because I'm forced into Trickster just to survive conditions.

> So what does my Shortbow's mobility do for me? It means that I MAY have a chance to survive my ineffective kamikaze attacks. It also locks me out of any effective offense for 10 seconds, so I'm forced to run away.

>

> But what happened to glass cannon D/P with just this patch? It lost 30% of damage on its first two AA attacks. It lost 4 seconds of cooldown on Roll for Initiative (5 without Trickster).

> Yeah, a 10-second cooldown reduction on Assassin's Signet is nice. But I prefer Haste for it's stun break, condition cleanse, and lower cooldown with Trickster. And I can't combine the two because Roll for Initiative and Shadowstep are absolutely required due to condition cleanses and the nature of stuns on a glass cannon (breaking isn't enough, you actually have to evade or teleport out to avoid the killing blow).

>

> Alas, I'm actually testing the potential of a Wizard-Trapper/Venom build that slots Thieves Guild. If that isn't a messed up reality, I don't know what is.

Core thief was amazing in PvP when the game launched. He was designed to do it very well, and it was often recommended to never solo a good thief. The kit offered quite a bit of build diversity, and you weren't shoehorned into taking Trickery every god damn time so you always had three trait lines available. Just about all weapon sets were worthwhile despite many lacking utility.

Now after a crap load of nerfs, and buffs to other classes, and questionable changes to our traits....

Pistol Pistol isn't really that great because we no longer have a unique trait for them. Ricochet was great.

Dagger Dagger fell out of popularity because it's incredibly hard to get value out of the bleed from it with amount of survivability other specs have.

Scorpion Wire which used to be really awesome though unreliable had basically fell out of existence cuz Anet never fixed it.

Thief's traps aren't too useful these days as some specs do now have means to break out of them easily.

Dagger Storm fell out of use because of the 1 stack of stability.... Yeah, nice of you to decrease the cool down time when you didn't even update the stacks of Stability. This ability was nice even for power builds because it was really good in outnumbered fights.

Basilisk Venom used to be MUUUUUUCH worse. Thankfully the kindest thing Anet has done for a thief was making it one of our few ways around aegis.

Sword Pistol was admirably broken, and I don't mind the nerf it got back in Launch.

It feels like absolute shit to miss a backstab thanks to the one second cool down, because of the behavior it had with Aegis. I'd rather get a 1 second cooldown for backstabbing aegis, and no cool down for missing. Because in Anet's eyes, everyone is standing perfectly still with their backs to the cloaked thief.

List goes on.

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Tinnel.4369" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > Just run away from a SA stealth abusing DE. It's that simple.

> > >

> > > Rule of thumb vs any thief who is abusing stealth excessively:

> > >

> > > They are bad players and you just walk away.

> >

> > While I don't fully disagree with you, there are people that prefer the stalking their prey play style and are still great thieves otherwise. By not acknowledging it your tone is losing its punch.

>

> Sitting permanently in stealth begets lazy crutch filled play. It's one thing to "hey i'ma play a perm stealth DE today for giggles" and quite another to always play it.

>

> Over reliance on stealth is compensating for lack of skill in most cases

Thumbs up. There's some very massive problems that are in full permastealth builds that players who complain about them do not see (Cuz they don't actually know what the build is, what a thief actually has in their kits, and generally have never tried playing the spec). For a thief to take permastealth on any of his kits, he gives up a LOT of utility, a lot of survivability, and some amount of damage if he can't reliably hit those back stabs or DJs. A variant of it where stealthing is used aggressively or defensively is more reliable, but it doesn't let them keep the 'permanent' uptime.

When I do the prey stalking, I don't have any build that lets me stay in stealth. Really it's more on the lines of I weave in, mark them, and fly back out and hide around the corner to wait for the charge up. I follow them if they leave the area while moving in a way that prevents the camera from seeing me. I'll sometimes take a venom or MUG with me to damage them to prevent them from just outright running.

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"lkilian.1854" said:

> > Mortal like the rest of us? Like warrior's double endure pain, necro barrier spam, guardian aegis uptime, engi miniature elixirs, ranger's double stone signet, elementalist's arcane shield and water sustain, or mesmer stuff you said? Revenant would be the only with right to complain here and even then it has many ways to mitigate damage and the capability of using 2 heal skills in few time. Every class has damage mitigation skills, and thief needs them too because it is one of the squishiest classes. Even then, thief's evades are active unlike many other professions that limit that function to using a skill and facetanking damage.

> >

> > I can see why you no longer play thief because it looks like you have no idea.

> I said it months ago: **Classes that can always reset or run away, should not be a strong duellist.** A class that can't be killed should also not be able to kill anyone.

>

> End of story.

>

> In the same posting I said that I would appreciate it when ANet would give teef more fight presence defense to survive cleaving and maintain constant pressure to be less dependant on burst, but ONLY WHEN they nerf its ridiculous mobility. Because damage, fight preesence (which has a huge impact in team fights) and mobility at once is just overpowered and a slap in the face of other classes (except mirage with is in the same boat as teef and shares its bad design).

>

> In the last patch they nerfed teef damage, which is great, because teef lost nothing of its mobility in this patch.

>

> You want damage? Play staff and assa signet. Oh you can't stealth anymore and lost agility signet condi cleanse and endurance gain? Deal with it!

>

> You want more burst than dagger gives you? Run P/P second weapon set! Oh you can't SB5 anymore to reset after every misplay? Deal with it!

>

> L2P the kitten game!

>

Because core thief doesn't have the mobility to just disengage outside of short bow. Only pistol offhand and dagger offhand provides damage mitigation. And after that everything is just sticking onto people.

DD provides that in 5 but it doesn't go far. And DE in standing 4.

DD has the bulk of thief's mitigation by providing the only on demand block in thief's kit. The replacement for Felines Grace after it was ripped out of core thief. A utility that interrupts and works as expected all the time. And everything on staff.

It seems like people bitch about a very tiny part of their kit without realizing WHY most thieves always use those tiny pieces. We don't have a lot of damage mitigation, and dying is the worst thing you can do in PvP.

If you can't kill a thief and want to blame it on mobility or their ability to avoid damage without ninty percent of the junk others have, you got horribly out played.

You have shadow flare, or one of those bursting runes. But outside of #2, deadeye doesn't have a real AOE option.

There are moments where 2 has proven to be able to do something. But they are so f*cking rare. Even then... the 1-second immobile is pretty fucking questionable. You can't stack it, and without haste you can't immobilize and shoot them with something else.

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> What's the best way to deal with being marked by a Deadeye in WvW? Or, if you're a Deadeye, what sorts of things do you worry about your opponent doing?

>

> I don't play much thief, so I'm not very good at putting myself into their "sneakers" (that's "American" for running shoes or "trainers"). I know that one option is breaking LoS, but that's rarely practical, especially in a 2:2 where the thief's roaming partner is in a bunker build (can't leave off attention from the 2nd opponent, can't easily hide, and yet there's this Mark of Damocles hanging over my neck).

>

> Are there profession-specific tricks? Can I assume the thief will wait for max Malice and dodge then? I'm assuming there are some viable tactics and I'm not simply doomed against any competently stealthy renegade.

>

> Thanks in advance.

>

> _edit: my apologies for mangling the name of the elite specialization; I meant Deadeye, the thief elite._

Avid Deadeye user in WvW and PvP. The mark it's self is not designed to be easily countered and flip the script on the Deadeye. Doing trhat would make the spec completely useless. However, there are some things you can actually do to prevent a Deadeye from murdering you.

When a Deadeye marks you. You have two options. Run or engage hard. If you Run, you take away the deadeye's ability to mark another target. If you have a group with you, they can deal with the deadeye for you. The second option is better if you can see the deadeye and you can get to them quickly.

If the deadeye is a non-permastealth getting on top of them immediately when you see that mark is going to be your salvation. Some may try to kite you and generate their malice. Some will actually fight you. I'm going to tell you right now to not underestimate a deadeye in melee. While they are intended to make heavy use of the rifle, they can be absolute monsters in Melee combat thanks to that damage buff and iron sights giving them a 15% damage reduction to their marked target.

Your biggest worry from a deadeye will be backstabs and Death Judgement. Death Judgement is pretty straight forward to avoid. But you need to pay attention. I've seen a lot of players bring some Reflect because they knew I was a deadeye. And they've been baited into waisting their reflects, Or they thought nothing of me swapping to rifle and kneeling immediately while they were in melee.

Count the Deadeye's utilities. One of the things a deadeye heavily lacks is mobility. So we often bring a shadow step on our hotbar to either evade or chase. You can bait a deadeye into close range by running through a bottle necked doorway and hiding by the side. Prepare your CC. Other specs of thieves will normally be able to just run around the corner and still kill you. But a Deadeye has a rough time with that without a shadowstep.

If the deadeye has terrain advantage over you. Do not engage. I can't tell you enough how much I get people screaming at me for playing a 'broken class' because I had the high ground and they couldn't spend two seconds to remember what a thief can do. As long as there's a walkable path, a thief can shadowstep to it. If a Deadeye shadowsteps to high ground, or low ground from high ground... DO NOT CHASE. You'll spend forever trying to get to him, and you'll get murdered for it.

If you do not have a dodge or a block available, theres a few things you can still do to save yourself from a DJ.

1. Is to hide behind an object. It doesn't matter how tall it is, if it blocks your walking movement, it obstructs the bullet. It's bullshit, but it pisses us thieves off massively.

2. Is to jump on top of the thief, and get behind them. I don't remember if they fixed this, but the DJ doesn't actually lock onto you for some stupid reason. If you go behind a thief it misses completely.

3. Interrupt.

Wear condi stats.

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> Thieves could change one of their disengages to something that increases their damage, like the buffed Assassin's Signet to maintain their pre patch burst, but become mortal like the rest of us (well except mesmers, but that's another story).

>

> But I think being killable is not an option for the typical teef.

>

> /a former thief main, who became bored by this faceroll class

Cool story, bro.

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > We're looking at this now. From my preliminary check, looking at the actual damage multipliers in the skill scripts:

> > >

> > > PvE:

> > > 1) Double Strike (X2): 0.4

> > > 2) Wild Strike:: 0.85

> > > 3) Lotus Strike: 1.1

> > >

> > > PvP/WvW:

> > > 1) Double Strike (x2): 0.3 (25% Reduction)

> > > 2) Wild Strike: 0.65 (23.5% Reduction)

> > > 3) Lotus Strike: 1.1 (No change)

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > There is 0 modifier in the script for Lotus strike for PvP/WvW.

> > >

> > > We'll keep looking, to see if we're missing something else.

> > >

> > > Edit:

> > > Overall reduction to the chain is 14.5%.

> >

> > If you average those together it comes out to 16%. Unless I am averaging % together wrongly. but 25+23.5+0 = 48.5 / 3 = 16.2

> >

> > Regardless the auto nerfs in general were silly as thieves rarely will complete a full rotation. That case is very rare.

>

> I got my numbers by doing the sum of the WvW/PvP multipliers and dividing by the sum of the PvE multipliers.

>

> .3+.3+.65+1.1 = 2.35

> .4+.4+.85+1.1 = 2.75

> 1-(2.32/2.75) = .145

>

>

>

>

This change is really concerning. May I ask for the down to earth reason for this change? I'm pretty sure you can understand why most of us thief mains have 25 stacks of pure tilt.

If not... From a salty thief main...

It's ridiculously difficult to fight another player now.

One of our few class pros have been taken away when we already have mesmer dangerously in our territory of the game.

And each balance patch we all read it with jaded resolve to see what in our kit got a seemingly undeserved nerf.

Still have day one bugs. "No valid path to target" in areas of a clear path, this still consumes our resources. shadow trap not functioning correctly half the time. Scorpion wire not always pulling people to you.

Builds limited by a single highly needed trait in trickery.

And our one main support utility, shadow refuge, being nearly useless in PvP support because the enemy can see the circle and spam AOEs on it.

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > If you know the ratio for the weapon skills in PvE, you can compute it close enough. It looks like they mean the entire auto attack chain got a 14% nerf. The first two attacks takes a 25% damage hit each and the last of the chain is untouched. This is a pretty kitten stupid nerf pattern. You'll most likely get the first two attacks, but people move around. That third one does not always land.

> > > >

> > > > Who ever thought of that deserves to get spanked for an eternity in the realm of the mad King.

> > >

> > > Over on my thread it looks like the full chain for dagger is down by 23% with nerfs to all 3 in chain of 30%, 30%, 8

> >

> > Tool tip or in practice?

>

> Tooltip numbers are overall a 23% decrease.

Probably something we ant to file a bug report over

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > If you know the ratio for the weapon skills in PvE, you can compute it close enough. It looks like they mean the entire auto attack chain got a 14% nerf. The first two attacks takes a 25% damage hit each and the last of the chain is untouched. This is a pretty kitten stupid nerf pattern. You'll most likely get the first two attacks, but people move around. That third one does not always land.

> >

> > Who ever thought of that deserves to get spanked for an eternity in the realm of the mad King.

>

> Over on my thread it looks like the full chain for dagger is down by 23% with nerfs to all 3 in chain of 30%, 30%, 8

Tool tip or in practice?

If you know the ratio for the weapon skills in PvE, you can compute it close enough. It looks like they mean the entire auto attack chain got a 14% nerf. The first two attacks takes a 25% damage hit each and the last of the chain is untouched. This is a pretty fucking stupid nerf pattern. You'll most likely get the first two attacks, but people move around. That third one does not always land.

Who ever thought of that deserves to get spanked for an eternity in the realm of the mad King.

> @"Lotus.1682" said:

> As much as I agree with you OP, I really don't think Anet is going to address this any time soon (if at all). I would suggest Reddit, but the only Devs that respond there are Fractal/Raids and PvE people.

>

> It's really frustrating.....

Assuming your thread doesn't get downvote into Oblivion. They are very downvote happy.

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

>

> > So... They keep killing me, I don't want to compete with them. Please nerf? I got 25 stacks of tilt too man, but I don't often complain about other specs.

> >

> > PS, we do have counters like everyone else. They just don't delete us anymore for using them. You still need some skill to kill a thief who's equal to you or better. We also have a blatantly obvious weakness.

> Ow you haven't read the whole post because i have said that i kill them most of the time(It is still no fun to fight 1). No i see a problem with thief and mesmer that is not healthy for the game. If you do a lot of damage you need to sacrific sustain. That is what every class does. Thief and mesmer doesn't have this. Mesmer more then theif. It is not even a fun fight agianst them.

>

No, I read it. Your schtick is a glass Cannon is not allowed to be so mobile. But being glassy only works in your favor in three instances.

You get the jump on someone.

You're able to keep pressuring them and surrender no quarter. They immediately lose if they are forced to pop their heal before you. This was why core thief was such a good damn monster in 1v1 before HoT. Their dodging and stickiness kept them alive and the other panicking with each blow they made.

Or barring those two, the player wasn't skilled enough to take you on.

Anet was on track when designing thief and giving him mobility to defend himself and stay healthy. The alternative for this class to hold his own so players would actually want to play it, and I fucking promise you, is far more annoying.

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > No, that's with the players knowing what they are doing. I spent a loooooot of matches and WvW fights dying till I learned how to be an evasive, predicting, juking, and slippery kitten. But that takes more active effort than simply waiting for a passive or pushing a button.

> >

> > My problem with mesmer is they do too much and have been proven to be great at it all more recently.

> >

> > The only other class I complained about was Reaper back in HoTs release because he was kitten unkillable.

>

> Thief before hot was fine they had a counter and stuff but now they dont'. Don't let me start on mesmer. The complain i have about thief is the same for mesmer but times 10.

So... They keep killing me, I don't want to compete with them. Please nerf? I got 25 stacks of tilt too man, but I don't often complain about other specs.

PS, we do have counters like everyone else. They just don't delete us anymore for using them. You still need some skill to kill a thief who's equal to you or better. We also have a blatantly obvious weakness.

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > if you dont have issues with fighting thief while not playing a thief, how come you complain about the class or do you assume you are just so much better player then the ones you kill and the ones that kill you are carried by build?

> > > > thief desgin might be unfun to play against but is still balanced. your proposed either high damage or high mobility sounds to me like you want an overall nerf instead of a shift to focus more on one. the general powerlevel of a thief in relation to other professions tho is fine.

> > >

> > > i dislike the class if it get hard they run or stealth and run i think that is no fun gameplay. The thief that kill me are really good players(most time get them down because they have only 200hp left well they get me down) and don't mind to die agianst them happens almost never(most time on dh roaming) but fighting a theif for 1 min because of the dodges and blocks and resetting the fight that is not really fun you know and that is why i think thief need a rework. Resetting a fight even a warrior can't do that only a thief can. I am okay if they keep the damage, but a it less mobility then. Also you wouldn't hear me complaining if they tune everything down.

> >

> > The problem then is you're gonna see a rogue class with a much higher survivability so he can actually stay in fights. If you haven't played thief yet, do so. You'll learn that you absolutely cannot afford to drag a fight out for too long. You don't have the same level of sustain as other classes. You have the lowest health pool along with ele and I think guardian. You don't have access to a lot of boons. You only have two abilities for aegis, one in each elite with one being a very specific case. And do to your burst nature, your initiative will gradually become lower as the fight goes on because you're sucking it up more quickly than it regenerates. I understand that people don't like how a thief is able to run from any fight, but forcing us to stay in it would cause more headache with what ever Anet comes up with.

>

> If you do a lot of damage like thief or mesmer you shouldn't even be allowed to have so much survivability. Any other class sacrific sustain for damage. Not Thief or Mesmer that is why people have a problem with those 2 classes.

No, that's with the players knowing what they are doing. I spent a loooooot of matches and WvW fights dying till I learned how to be an evasive, predicting, juking, and slippery bastard. But that takes more active effort than simply waiting for a passive or pushing a button. Thief is one of the harder classes to play, and is rewarded so. Mesmer is also fairly difficult to play and their players should be recognized for it.

My problem with mesmer is they do too much and have been proven to be great at it all more recently. If they backed off of thief's territory, or they get that sort of output while being more difficult to play, I'd be perfectly alright with it.

The only other class I complained about was Reaper back in HoTs release because he was fucking unkillable.

> @"will de grijze jager.6594" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > if you dont have issues with fighting thief while not playing a thief, how come you complain about the class or do you assume you are just so much better player then the ones you kill and the ones that kill you are carried by build?

> > thief desgin might be unfun to play against but is still balanced. your proposed either high damage or high mobility sounds to me like you want an overall nerf instead of a shift to focus more on one. the general powerlevel of a thief in relation to other professions tho is fine.

>

> i dislike the class if it get hard they run or stealth and run i think that is no fun gameplay. The thief that kill me are really good players(most time get them down because they have only 200hp left well they get me down) and don't mind to die agianst them happens almost never(most time on dh roaming) but fighting a theif for 1 min because of the dodges and blocks and resetting the fight that is not really fun you know and that is why i think thief need a rework. Resetting a fight even a warrior can't do that only a thief can. I am okay if they keep the damage, but a it less mobility then. Also you wouldn't hear me complaining if they tune everything down.

The problem then is you're gonna see a rogue class with a much higher survivability so he can actually stay in fights. If you haven't played thief yet, do so. You'll learn that you absolutely cannot afford to drag a fight out for too long. You don't have the same level of sustain as other classes. You have the lowest health pool along with ele and I think guardian. You don't have access to a lot of boons. You only have two abilities for aegis, one in each elite with one being a very specific case. And do to your burst nature, your initiative will gradually become lower as the fight goes on because you're sucking it up more quickly than it regenerates. I understand that people don't like how a thief is able to run from any fight, but forcing us to stay in it would cause more headache with what ever Anet comes up with.

> @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > @"Lotus.1682" said:

> > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > assassin signet new meme meta

> > > > >

> > > > > So how's your take on thief post patch?

> > > >

> > > > good patch, as I said before the patch s/d will remain the same with slightly less damage and d/p got nerfed harder, it could possibly be used vs certain comps or builds but I think it doesn't have enough damage so unless stealth becomes relevant again in pvp I don't see d/p as meta in pvp.

> > >

> > > Do you see any other potential builds rising? Condi S/D? Condi D/D? or are the other weapon sets to flawed at a fundamental level to do well? By that I mean how most other sets lack the synergy and movement capabilities that S/D and D/P offer.

> >

> > Pretty sure the guy is trolling lol. Don't see thieves being meta any longer, just completely outclassed by mesmer. They nerfed condi S/D too with Panic strike and Condi D/D is like P/P cheese. Only other builds I see being somewhat decent are S/D or S/P Deadeye.

>

> I'm not trolling gold player, if you can't use s/d as it should be used then it's not my problem.

>

> s/d is still strong enough to pressure fb so it can stick on teamfights much longer than dp, s/d also has a better 2v2 and 1v1 so it's basically the same with a bit less damage which is fine since everything was toned down as well.

> Also s/d has a good 1v1 vs mirage even though mes is god tier, double steal is still really strong against mesmers.

>

> I don't see any other builds arise tbh deadeye will be used a little more but that's all, with the nerf to PI the thieves that were still playing around it will switch to s/d now, and I really don't see any other build that could in theory compete vs s/d.

>

I made it pretty far with just dagger dagger and Deadeye rifle... Still climbing... But that was before the nerf to daggers autos. If you're wandering how... M7 hits, Binding Shadow to DJ immediately, infiltrators signet finish them with 5 to backstab with crit garaunteed on the 5 hit. Roll for Init and MH for when I have to worry about condition. Roll for Initiative and Withdraw for when I feel like staying on top of people after I spike them.

> @"Tinnel.4369" said:

> > @"CreedOfGod.9764" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > Thief's autos for dagger and sword were nerfed by 14%. Unfortunately, backstab is also an auto. You need to focus more on your 2-5 skills now... But the init costs are too high to use them extensively for what they push out in damage. Especially when they are designed for specific circumstances. Or use a staff or rifle. It feels like a harsh struggle now. Kinda kitten, but Anets never been doing us favors.

> >

> > Hooooooold up there partner. I thought it was only the auto attack chain (double strike, wild strike lotus strike) that got nerfed and backstab was left untouched? Can anyone confirm?

>

> I also thought what Leo did, but it doesn't appear to be the case. Backstab seems untouched.

Maybe my tilt is over stacked after years of nerfs.

Used to be better. But players don't like classes designed to not fight fair, despite the trade offs the class makes to do what it does so well. Anet stuck them full of holes and left them to die. Occasionally we get remembered. And we get kicked while we are down

> @"Kallist.5917" said:

> You have a few options.

> Option one: stick with a power build, but drop zerker. If you look at the patch notes, it seems like they are finally trying to lean away from glass cannon builds. Maybe try some of the other power stats that include toughness or Vit in the mix.

> Option two: Try a Condi build for a while. Either way, Zerker is probably going to be dead for the next quarter or so while they see how these changes pan out.

What thief goes zerks in PvP... My main armor is Marauders or Valks.

> @"Tinnel.4369" said:

> > @"zipain.5276" said:

> > If you look through the patch notes, then they clearly only wants us to play dagger/x or deadeye.... except the auto attacks, the dagger builds got no nerfs. But s/d got gutted.... s/d is only good if played in a specific way, so this makes no sense.

>

> Backstab is an auto attack, dagger builds got nerfed.

If backstab was untouched, it may be workable... But even then that one second cool down is make or break situation.

> @"AngelsShadow.7360" said:

> But its actually completely irrelevant because both parts of the S/D #3 chain are unblockable, thief still has access to double steal on a lowish cooldown and the passive evade is still 2 seconds, regardless of its extended cooldown.

Most of our damage comes from the auto chain and most weapon skills are more utility than damage. Unless you went condition or pulmonary impact. Though these numbers do not look like what the patch notes stated. I'll take a closer look when I get home.