Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497
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Posts posted by Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497
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> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:
> > @"Grandtomatoe.2045" said:
> > Thief backstab is getting really strong! But they deserve it its a tough attack to set up. So much mass damage aoe in this game!
>
> it really isnt though, not with shadow arts and DE. it can be tricky or a "tough" as a meta D/p but it is very easy to land a back stab when you can pretty much be in stealth indefinitely.
No it's tough. Indefinite stealth only works assuming that you're using the D/P build. Give it a few, and I'm sure that Anet will find some way to nerf it into being unusable. Even if they don't, if you got those players smart enough to bring a reveal utility for once, instead of complaining about perma stealth thieves... you're kinda screwed if you were packing basilisk venom.
Dual Daggers, it's a frustrating experience because the players don't exactly hold still for you. Combined with that 1 second delay for a damn miss.
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> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:
> > @"Menyus.4610" said:
> > > @"SoulSin.5682" said:
> > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:
> > > > It's never been able to crit. Imho, that's part of the problem.
> > > >
> > > > One could run around in soldier's/paladins and just spam headshot without worrying about crit/ferocity for max damage while playing innately tankier.
> > > >
> > > > It also does stack, so saying the DPS is low isn't true; if you interrupt three times in two seconds, they'll take 9k damage within 2s after 3s.
> > > >
> > > > Further, it heavily depends on build. Marauder stat builds have very low power. Prior to the nerf, my build would be able to PI for around 8-10k per interrupt or ~6-9k without assassin's signet, which is really disgustingly strong to be hitting while the opponent is also getting interrupted.
> > >
> > > What build you are using to make those calculations after all?
> >
> > he just simply lied you cant even do 6k+ PI in wvw
> > In PvP the maximum possible is with 25 might, maximum power setup(berserker amulet, scholar rune) + damage modifiers and against a berserker ele would be 8454 below 50% hp
>
> Lmao what?
>
> >**Prior to the nerf**, my build would be able to PI for around 8-10k per interrupt or ~6-9k without assassin's signet, which is really disgustingly strong to be hitting while the opponent is also getting interrupted.
>
> PI pre-nerf: 3.28 coefficient.
> Mug: 1.5 coefficient.
>
> 
> Screenshot was into a thief. I've done more damage, but it's hard to nab screenshots of damage logs in group play.
>
> I actually low-balled my numbers because if I said 12k like I could actually do, people would lose their minds lol. Also is more of a median of some people running toughness.
>
> PI post-nerf: 2.0 Coefficient -> 6.9k
>
> If you're going to complain about not dealing damage... stop playing builds that are loaded up on defense with trash for offense.
>
> PS: Those numbers are still doable on a soldier's tank build.
Fuck defences if you want to do more damage than other classes with defences. Got it.
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> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> >
> > Ooor... You can fix the problems that were not intended behaviors? Like thief being able to be permanently stealth by reducing the effectiveness of stealth stacking. Which would be more acceptable than allowing a common complaint to be a kitten poor excuse for "thief needs to be on the losing end"
> >
> > Because no. No class deserves to be on the losing end of anything in a straight up fight. It should not take me more effort than a kitten mesmer or a guardian to kill anyone. But half the kitten time I have to run from a fight that was in my favor to do some cheap shot, because some kitten on the forums thinks certain classes should be weaker than others. I should not have to be a significantly better player than my opponent to barely scrape by and win. That is a kitten design, and one that would have a player base scream for your immediate employment termination.
> >
> > And by that same logic. Mesmer should not be as kitten powerful as it is now. Because it is never in a straight up brawl thanks to the clones. Ranger should be weaker because it out numbers in a 1v1 with its multiple pets. Elementalist would be fragile as hell. Engie would be weaker than it currently is. And Necros because of their kitten minions.
> >
> >
> > So... That means the games strongest classes would be warrior, guardian, and revenant. Which is horse kitten.
>
> Fixing those unintended behaviors is trading away the advantages...
>
> I'll explain the terminology more simply: the "straight up brawl" is when two players actively engage each other in direct combat without resorting to gimmicks or cheese tactics. No kiting from range, no hit-and-run tactics, no exploiting terrain, no ambushing. Just two players charging in and fighting each other to the death. Things like minions and clones, those are supplementary to the fight, and don't somehow invalidate the direct engagement.
>
> Aside from random factors and class mechanics having a rock-paper-scissors effect, one of the most important things to keep in mind is movement speed. If you have a class that is frail, it must be quick, or else it will be relentlessly chased down and killed by the less frail yet much faster class. Likewise, if you have a class that is slow, it also must be quite durable and output a lot of pressure, or else it will be chased down the by the more powerful yet less slow class. So long as the frail classes are fast and the tough classes are slow, there's a sense of agency to the fight.
>
> This "problem" isn't unique to the Thief. The other side of the coin is the necromancer. Since necromancers are the slowest class in the game, they must always be capable of standing their ground against every other class in the game, or else they will become unplayable in PVP. For a large portion of PVP, they _were_ nearly unplayable. Necromancers got knocked around like ping-pong balls, and their slow DPS meant that every other class could just charge up and kill them. The only way for a necromancer to win was to have a full life force bar, a resource that they themselves weren't ultimately in control over. It took several updates buffing their defenses and damage before they could become competitive, which ultimately lead to the condi meta and the minion meta. When Reaper came out, it was a bit of a joke, because scrappers and berserkers were better bruisers that were also faster moving.
>
> This isn't to say that one class should always lose, no matter what. Tactics exist for a reason. But what this does say is that one class shouldn't be able to beat another one just by slamming all their DPS skills while the other class has no chance to escape. That's just bad design, going up to every elementalist and telling them that their job is to be fodder for enemy thieves and mesmers. "Yep, as soon as one goes over the hill, you might as well GG because they'll beat you to a pulp and you can never get away from them."
>
> I'll explain another thing simply: None of the professions in the game are going to be evenly balanced with each other. As soon as two different classes meet, somebody is on the losing end. By the product of their effective health multiplied by their DPS, someone is automatically losing before the first button is even pressed. The only way for such a system to exist and also be balanced is if speed tiers are properly respected. If they aren't, then PVP falls apart. Much like it just did.
Except at launch that's not how it worked, and after a few. Balance changes PvP was at it's best state.
Necro wasn't squishy or helpless. Necros whole deal was controlling boons and debuffs which really screwed over classes that depended heavily on passives or condi.
Warrior was a versatile brawler that was well rounded.
Guardian wrecked your shit for attacking him, and did harm onto you as you did others.
Thief excelled at pressuring and being sticky in one on one fights, but was frail.
Engie was an impenetrable asshole on defense
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> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:
> > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > that conversation of which half got deleted, started with blood red arachnid claiming ' thief has to be one of the weakest classe' because of the way it is designed. and that is just stupid. because that would mean ideally a thief would lose any fight on same skill level wich is not really a desireable balance goal.
>
> That is the ideal. Welcome to the world of class balance in an environment where speed matters. If you give a class the triad of bursty, highly mobile, and completely invisible, then in order to make everything fair you're going to be hit with some pretty severe trades. Other classes have to be able to fight back and be capable of winning _when ambushed from stealth._ That's the thief's greatest asset: it controls when the fight starts, always lands the first blow, and can disengage to reset whenever it feels like it. If you want thieves to be better, you're going to have to sacrifice one of those, or else you'll destroy the game's balance. The thief, by default, has to be on the losing side of a straight up brawl, because _they're never in a straight up brawl._
Ooor... You can fix the problems that were not intended behaviors? Like thief being able to be permanently stealth by reducing the effectiveness of stealth stacking. Which would be more acceptable than allowing a common complaint to be a piss poor excuse for "thief needs to be on the losing end"
Because no. No class deserves to be on the losing end of anything in a straight up fight. It should not take me more effort than a fucking mesmer or a guardian to kill anyone. But half the fucking time I have to run from a fight that was in my favor to do some cheap shot, because some bastard on the forums thinks certain classes should be weaker than others. I should not have to be a significantly better player than my opponent to barely scrape by and win. That is a shit design, and one that would have a player base scream for your immediate employment termination.
And by that same logic. Mesmer should not be as fucking powerful as it is now. Because it is never in a straight up brawl thanks to the clones. Ranger should be weaker because it out numbers in a 1v1 with its multiple pets. Elementalist would be fragile as hell. Engie would be weaker than it currently is. And Necros because of their fucking minions.
So... That means the games strongest classes would be warrior, guardian, and revenant. Which is horse shit.
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> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:
> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:
> > > @"Specialka.7290" said:
> > >
> > > Thief needs to be weaker because it can ambush from stealth and is mobile? So can we talk about Mesmer?
> > >
> > > You do know that in any other mmos or evem games, rogues are always the kings of 1v1?
> >
> > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:
> > >
> > > Dumbest thing I have read in awhile. Mesmers can literally do all the things can do without punishment. Condi Mirage can literally apply conditions in between stealthing. While also being super mobile as well.
> >
> > You've both noticed how much it sucks that mirage can warp everywhere and tear people up. So why, then, do you want the thief to do the same thing? It's just going to suck even more.
> >
> > This is a balance problem encountered on many games. Hell, back in City of Heroes, a lot of people wouldn't go into any PVP areas because of the Stalker, which was a nigh undetectable high DPS machine that could wreck everybody. There's a certain good principle in game design: have mechanics that are fun to do, and fun to be the recipient of. Having yourself instantly ganked by an invisible enemy isn't fun. It's fun to do, but its not fun when it happens to you.
> >
> > In the early days of GW2, the thief was one of the most hated classes in the game, precisely because it just warped around slaughtering everyone. "Please, nerf Pistol whip! Please, nerf quickness! Please, nerf Signet of Malice! Please, nerf Acrobatics." All day, every day. I still remember when Helseth made a video where he complained how he had to switch from Mesmer to Thief because "Thief is so fast and has so much more power. Mesmers don't stand a chance!" I can't blame him. It sucked to main a class that was rendered utterly useless by the mere existence of a thief on the other team.
> >
> > I don't know why Anet decided to throw several years of balancing out the door with PoF. I'm guessing a lack of proper testing. But the fact is that to demand thieves be both the most mobile class _and_ be capable of always beating another class in a straight up brawl is terrible design. The fact that the mirage currently occupies this role and is ruining PVP is proof of this claim There is years of balancing and game design behind this assertion. The only reason why it sounds stupid to you is because you're selfish, and just want to dismiss anything that doesn't immediately give you what you want.
>
> THANK YOU.
>
> I've been trying to get people to understand this for years.
>
> There should be a feeling of fairness any time you lose. It's why powercreep and instant-cast damage are killing this game.
>
> Rather than asking for less of it, people just want more of it, but specifically more of it for themselves and only themselves.
Except that Thief was actually in a very fair spot after a series of nerfs had toned down the damage we can do. And buffs to every other classes passives. Our damage was higher than anyone else but it was no longer bonkers. And players actually stood a chance against the class specifically designed for 1v1. Given our limited role diversity and weaknesses it's palpable. Shit spiraled out of control with HoT, and got much worse with PoF. The nerfs never stopped so it got increasingly more difficult for thief to follow their design. But hey, we got mesmer that for some reason is allowed to be the best condi, the best PvP burst, the best fuckin tank, more untouchable than thief, stupidly mobile, virtually no glaring flaws, was allowed to have the best unique buff for a long time, was allowed to make people invulnerable, and is always required in pub raids.
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Balance to me is that each profession has a very defined strength that sets them on equal footing against others, but are capable of taking many roles using their strengths
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Thief used to have a stat boost for daggers in CS. It was removed however.
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> @"Specialka.7290" said:
> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:
> > The short version is, the nature of thief requires it to be one of the weakest classes. Since it is the most mobile class and can ambush from stealth, it has to be weak enough for every single other class to be capable of fighting back. Otherwise, the class that is slower and can't win will never be played, for it will always be just easy prey for the Thief.
> >
> > The Thief is not incapable in any sense. It just happens that a lot of the Thief's PVE utilities aren't that useful in raids, which is the microscope of a view that everyone uses to evaluate the class. Everywhere else, they're fine. In DPS, Survivability, etc.
> >
> > Personally, I wouldn't "restart" a class. Just make another character.
>
> Thief needs to be weaker because it can ambush from stealth and is mobile? So can we talk about Mesmer?
>
> You do know that in any other mmos or evem games, rogues are always the kings of 1v1?
People have that weird notion that thief needs to be weak because of xyz.
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> @"Runo.3780" said:
> Okay, what about pve?
Assuming raids... Not the most desirable. And not likely to be taken over other options. Decent DPS, yet somehow not the best at it while remaining unable to provide decent team support. The steal changes were on the right path.
Fractals you can manage just fine unless you're in a group of elitist.
Regular PvE you'll be fine
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I ran ninja medic thief back in the day. I was mixed between healing power and zerk stats with party stealthiness to give regen. It annoyed the hell out of the enemy players as I did a lot of damage and could make people healthy again.
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> @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > Rather than increasing the flat rate. The rate remains normal in combat as long as the thief is using init (possibly adding attacking onto this). Anytime thief gets a moment of respite, via interrupt, evade, or backing off the init Regen rate significantly increases till initiative is spent. Theres a few key things I want to point out. The first is it brings back thief's ability to pressure in one on one fights, forcing the enemy to keep the assault going. The second is the enemy gets the ability to pressure and control their init Regen by not surrendering a single moment.For concerns of permastealth, players should remember to bring traits of abilities with the ability to reveal. And those passives should have their cool downs reduced to help them combat thief. Thirdly this brings back thief's 1v1 power, and still maintains their weakness. The opposing player can fight the mechanic but will be punished for being out played or the lack of aggression. If thief proves to be better than the opposing player, there should be no reason he should lose immediately because a fight is prolonged.
> > >
> > > i dont really see what that ini change is supposed to do and especially how my opponent is able to control how i use my ini. i dont need more ini while i am not using it.
> > > thieves opponents already have to play aggressive when they got an opportunity as thieves are slippery, wasting all stuff into a kiting thief on the other hand is going to kill them allways.
> > > as for permastealth, you can already stealth without using ini and a thief remaining stealthed is no threat while he remains there so i dont see what the concers about it are coming from. i would understand complains about the damage value of malicious backstab for example as this can oneshot most people out of stealth but the stealth as such is not the issue its high damage without tell, same with any high damage instant abilities even without stealth.
> > > upperhand got its cooldown increased and thats probably not because of regen but ini on evade. with your suggestion if i understand it correct with a little port or chaining a few evades i am not going to get just one ini with upper hand but regen ini at significant rate wich is alot stronger?
> > >
> > > i do think one of the main issues of the ini system and the thief design is weapon swap. if you had an ini bar seperately for each weapon set, they could slow down ini regen and force the thief to swap weapons to lower spam. using 2 identical weapon sets would result in shared ini bar like with other classes. with reduced spamm thief weapon skills can finally be improved. currently if you improve one skill people will just camp that set and spamm that one skill, unload for example. thats not being flexible and use skills more situational, thats spamming.
> > >
> > > but i agree thief seems to be balanced alot around trickery line or overall into stacking effects on steal as it is an instant ability on core / daredevil. a deadeye is a lot less in need of trickery, especially with m7.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > That is one way of handling it. Better than. The LOL NURF we're getting every update.
>
> well i could be wrong but i assume thieves ability to spamm a weapon skill nearly endlessly is the reason they are rather weak. thats why i think to buff our skills we need to first reduce spamm, while keeping flexibility and i dont know any better or any other way of doing it then giving us seperate ini for each weapon set. or we keep changing stuff here and there and are allways stuck in builds that mainly spamm the same 1-2 skills over and over. thief is by design currently a gimmick in every build.
Meanwhile other classes can face roll and get results
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> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:
> Take the old maps and make them a bit larger.
>
> Players are playing conquest like death match in unranked anyways.
>
> Make the respawn almost intant.
>
> the score should go until 15:00 regardless. ( so it could above 500+)
>
> highest wins.
>
> EZ
Depends on what you call death match. It's advantageous to control the map and kill them off before they can do anything. But running around and only killing each other is as productive as only capping and never defending
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> @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > Rather than increasing the flat rate. The rate remains normal in combat as long as the thief is using init (possibly adding attacking onto this). Anytime thief gets a moment of respite, via interrupt, evade, or backing off the init Regen rate significantly increases till initiative is spent. Theres a few key things I want to point out. The first is it brings back thief's ability to pressure in one on one fights, forcing the enemy to keep the assault going. The second is the enemy gets the ability to pressure and control their init Regen by not surrendering a single moment.For concerns of permastealth, players should remember to bring traits of abilities with the ability to reveal. And those passives should have their cool downs reduced to help them combat thief. Thirdly this brings back thief's 1v1 power, and still maintains their weakness. The opposing player can fight the mechanic but will be punished for being out played or the lack of aggression. If thief proves to be better than the opposing player, there should be no reason he should lose immediately because a fight is prolonged.
>
> i dont really see what that ini change is supposed to do and especially how my opponent is able to control how i use my ini. i dont need more ini while i am not using it.
> thieves opponents already have to play aggressive when they got an opportunity as thieves are slippery, wasting all stuff into a kiting thief on the other hand is going to kill them allways.
> as for permastealth, you can already stealth without using ini and a thief remaining stealthed is no threat while he remains there so i dont see what the concers about it are coming from. i would understand complains about the damage value of malicious backstab for example as this can oneshot most people out of stealth but the stealth as such is not the issue its high damage without tell, same with any high damage instant abilities even without stealth.
> upperhand got its cooldown increased and thats probably not because of regen but ini on evade. with your suggestion if i understand it correct with a little port or chaining a few evades i am not going to get just one ini with upper hand but regen ini at significant rate wich is alot stronger?
>
> i do think one of the main issues of the ini system and the thief design is weapon swap. if you had an ini bar seperately for each weapon set, they could slow down ini regen and force the thief to swap weapons to lower spam. using 2 identical weapon sets would result in shared ini bar like with other classes. with reduced spamm thief weapon skills can finally be improved. currently if you improve one skill people will just camp that set and spamm that one skill, unload for example. thats not being flexible and use skills more situational, thats spamming.
>
> but i agree thief seems to be balanced alot around trickery line or overall into stacking effects on steal as it is an instant ability on core / daredevil. a deadeye is a lot less in need of trickery, especially with m7.
>
>
That is one way of handling it. Better than. The LOL NURF we're getting every update.
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> @"Runo.3780" said:
> > @"Miatela.5047" said:
> > Invigorating Precision in Critical Strikes will help with survivability but as others have pointed out, you might want to consider a different profession that is more forgiving and more rewarding to get a hang of basics such as movement, dodging and kiting without being overly punished for mistakes.
>
> What profession do you mean by "more forgiving". I'm playing thief as an alt and it's lvl 11 right now but I would like to know why you think thief is least rewarding and least forgiving class?
>
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > In short, thief is the hardest class in the game, and probably the least rewarding.
>
> Sam question to you. And why is it hardest? I thought that Ele and Mesmer are hardest :O.
>
> Thanks for answering my concerns.
Originally when the game released, thief was a very powerful 1v1 class designed more with PvP in mind. After a few nerfs they were put into a good and fairly balanced spot so you needed to be on your a game to Excell. There was a very good reason to fear a good thief back then. The single target damage was unmatched. They were fast, mobile, impressive guerillas, great at ambushing, hard to hit, surprisingly good at dueling, and them interrupting you often meant a quick death. Their kits revolved around getting in your face, cut you up and get out before you can do shit.
However, thief is under constant nerfs, some of them are debatable, a few are pure bullshit and unwarranted, and a Lot could have been done a bit more fairly. It's even more concerning when certain things from other professions were allowed to be a thing for way too long.
You are incredibly squishy, and lack a lot of tools other classes have. Thief is a class that relies heavily on player skill and game knowledge to be deadly, much more so than other professions. But even at your peak, you won't feel like you're doing enough, when someone who just started the game with mesmer, ele, warrior, or guardian can destroy you in a heart beat for a single mistake. Or that it takes way too long to kill someone because of all of their passives, on demand aegis, Regen, condi cleanse, natural tanky was, etc. Anything you do that is usually difficult and takes a decent amount of skill and effort to accomplish is not rewarded enough. More recently, we had a situational trait that deals damage if you interrupt someone have it's damage reduced by a grand total of 50%.
Then in sPvP... Most of the time you will be able horned in to only decapping and +1ing by your team regardless of your skill or play making opportunities. Trust me, it is fucking boring. And apparently the fairness for you does not matter if it is unfair for the team. And they will quickly call you toxic and selfish.
My thought is that Anet is responding to complaints of other players. They are projecting the typical rogue role from other MMOs onto thief rather than allowing it to be its own thing, similar to how Ele is not actually fragile in melee combat despite being a mage class. They are actually very efficient at it.
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> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:
> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:
> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:
> > > It's never been able to crit. Imho, that's part of the problem.
> > >
> > > One could run around in soldier's/paladins and just spam headshot without worrying about crit/ferocity for max damage while playing innately tankier.
> > >
> > > It also does stack, so saying the DPS is low isn't true; if you interrupt three times in two seconds, they'll take 9k damage within 2s after 3s.
> > >
> > > Further, it heavily depends on build. Marauder stat builds have very low power. Prior to the nerf, my build would be able to PI for around 8-10k per interrupt or ~6-9k without assassin's signet, which is really disgustingly strong to be hitting while the opponent is also getting interrupted.
> >
> > What build you are using to make those calculations after all?
>
> Zerk/Valk DA/CS/Tr like I've always run. Prior to the recent nerfs it had a 3.28 damage coefficient. Mug has a 1.5. My mugs have always dealt between 3k to 5k in WvW and 2-4k in sPvP.
>
> > @"SoulSin.5682" said:
> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > Adjust the mechanics of the raid bosses and reduce everyone's damage. Make core thief's traits more competitive with each other. And give him a bit of a nudge for support utilities.
> >
> > Thief damage on raids isn't actually "that bad". We just need to have initiative compatible with Alacrity to begin any sort of damage balance.
> >
> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > They could have changed heart seekers multipliers for health thresholds.
> > Except that the current multipliers are actually a nerf in itself. ANET rarely or never revert past nerfs.
> >
> >
> > I agree that interrupts should be rewarded more.
> > Interrupting is one of the things thief is good at doing it. But even if you equip every possible Sigil and Trait for interrupt it still feel lackluster.
> > And yes of course, its night impossible to interrupt certain classes due to excessive stab, invulnerability and Aegis interaction.
> >
> > That's why I commented that regaining initiative on interrupt could be a thing.
> >
>
> To be frank with you, interrupts are supposed to be a mesmer thing. It's been that way since GW1 and this direction was the basis for the entire Domination trait line. Thief has spammable interrupts but it's not really supposed to be the major seller of the class or playstyle. OH pistol has a ton of different utility which is why it's so good.
It's not like mesmer isnt doing thief, guardian, and elementalist things very well.
Some other things I'd like to see...
Remove the bonus init from trickery and speed up thief's natural initiative regeneration regardless of spec. One of the problems with balancing was how much thief can spam abilities. And the main reason thief always takes Trickery because of the bonus init. If that was never going to be base line then they can afford to do this.
Rather than increasing the flat rate. The rate remains normal in combat as long as the thief is using init (possibly adding attacking onto this). Anytime thief gets a moment of respite, via interrupt, evade, or backing off the init Regen rate significantly increases till initiative is spent. Theres a few key things I want to point out. The first is it brings back thief's ability to pressure in one on one fights, forcing the enemy to keep the assault going. The second is the enemy gets the ability to pressure and control their init Regen by not surrendering a single moment. For concerns of permastealth, players should remember to bring traits of abilities with the ability to reveal. And those passives should have their cool downs reduced to help them combat thief. Thirdly this brings back thief's 1v1 power, and still maintains their weakness. The opposing player can fight the mechanic but will be punished for being out played or the lack of aggression. If thief proves to be better than the opposing player, there should be no reason he should lose immediately because a fight is prolonged.
Replacing the bonus init in trickery needs to be something equally powerful, but fit into thief's abilities and theme rather than buffing raw damage, and should reward skill play. So... Thief is supposed to be a hard hitting, fast, mobile, combo monger. This one will make a little more sense to put into the kit
"Uncanny Dodge" 15second internal cool down. When thief lands x number of blows to any target, without taking x amount of damage in x amount of time(only once if a weapon bounces or strikes multiple times in a single attack) then they may immediately use any utility currently on cool down once. This does not allow heal skills, or elites to be used when on cool down.
Finally. Rather than directly nerfing thief. Pay close attention to what is happening in combat. If something is clearly wrong, try adjusting the abilities that are designed to counter certain elements. Players complaining about permastealth, adjust their reveal skills. Don't increase thief's costs. A small adjustment somewhere will remind players that those skills exist and should be used rather than an entire meta build.
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Dual pistol isn't known for durability. Most of thief's defenses comes from active defence rather than passive.
In short, thief is the hardest class in the game, and probably the least rewarding. If you are new to thief, you should make a new character and level that one normally to get a feel of it. Otherwise you will be turned off from thief pretty quickly. And based on Anets track record on what they think is fun, rewarding, and balanced for thief players in all game modes... Thief is practically gonna get deleted.
Unless you use toughness or vitality, there's no real build that will help you.
You'll need to learn how to dodge, kite, sidestep, and reposition on thief to stay alive. Or you can just do what 90% of meh thieves do and face tank and burst with full zerks
Otherwise... Look into acrobatics. It has most of thief's survivability put into it
Thief doesn't have any decent AoE. Daredevil features thief's cleave and a spiking vault on staff. The two options built into core is in Short bow. And the other option is in Deadeye Spotter Shot when things align, and shadow flare.
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> @"Kathul.1280" said:
> Everytime I see a p/p DE it reminds me of all the scenes in Predator. "Hey look, an opponent who would have a chance in a fair fight. Well, I am invisible, may as well shoot him in the back and move on. " Still can't think of any type of "competitive" game in the world, including other e-sport type games, that allow complete invisibility. Just a silly mechanic to make the Developer that decided Ballistics AND Magic in a lore sense was super cool.
>
> Lore wise, sure, whatever. Dungeons and Dragons, you know, the game that started all this. Has OPTIONAL ballistics rules. Cause guns and magic in the same world is just silly. Invisibility in that system gets trumped pretty quick as well, most DM's just give their mobs the ability to see through it for fairness sake.
>
> GET TO DA CHOPPA !!
Overwatch, Quake FULL SERIES, unreal tournament FULL SERIES, Halo combat evolved when the resolution was too shitty to see, team fortress, DotA 2 (A shit load of defenders, most well known is rikimaru permanently invisible the entire game AS A PASSIVE), league of legends (eveline, rengar, khazix, teemo, along with characters that can appear from bone fuck no where) Killzone (entire series, infiltrators), Titan Fall 1 and 2, planet side 2 (infiltrators with shotguns), Heroes of the Storm (Zeratul, and sniper woman), fucking COD. Time Splitters.
All of those games had invisible characters with greater levels of bullshit than thief. ANYONE ELSE WANNA ADD TO THIS?
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> @"Blocki.4931" said:
> One problem at a time. I don't think most people were even aware that Mirage is strong
Yeah... Thief is still allowed to use weapons after all. Anets gonna fix that soon ish.
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40 more and you'll see how thief feels currently.
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For now. I'd only use the meta as a guide. Really, you'll find off meta builds that cater to your style to be much better. Runes and Sigils hold a pretty strong impact on you.
For example... If you're unable to stay healthy, scholar is lost in you. You can instead trade off precision pieces of your armor for other stats and equip the Rune of the Daredevil. After a dodge your next attack will be a critical hit. If you don't mind slowing down malice generation a bit, you can get armor, healing power, health, or condi damage. When you use DJ, you will guarantee a critical hit.
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> @"SoulSin.5682" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > Adjust the mechanics of the raid bosses and reduce everyone's damage. Make core thief's traits more competitive with each other. And give him a bit of a nudge for support utilities.
>
> Thief damage on raids isn't actually "that bad". We just need to have initiative compatible with Alacrity to begin any sort of damage balance.
>
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > They could have changed heart seekers multipliers for health thresholds.
> Except that the current multipliers are actually a nerf in itself. ANET rarely or never revert past nerfs.
>
>
> I agree that interrupts should be rewarded more.
> Interrupting is one of the things thief is good at doing it. But even if you equip every possible Sigil and Trait for interrupt it still feel lackluster.
> And yes of course, its night impossible to interrupt certain classes due to excessive stab, invulnerability and Aegis interaction.
>
> That's why I commented that regaining initiative on interrupt could be a thing.
>
Then we can forget about DPS and make Thief strong at punishing and bursting. A skilled thief should be powerful. Not lack luster. This will place a slightly higher skill floor and cieling on thief.
For raids thief's bursting should be able to make up for the lack of DPS. A stunned boss or player takes increased damage from thief
For shadow arts, we can baseline percentile damage reduction, and replace the one in master with a one time surprise attack. A strong bonus for initiating the first hit into combat. This means you have a strong defense choice that prevents blind critical strikes. A short lived power spoke to pressure. Or a small sustain that stacks a bit with acrobatics.
Honestly. I'll take anything meaningful for thief at this point if it gets us out of our boring PvP role.
Because according to Reddit, we're toxic players with a me first mentality. And we're "team players" by doing the maximum of decaping. And we're selfish if we do anything else.
Amazing that they don't understand where the salt stems from, isn't it?
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> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:
> > @"omgdracula.6345" said:
> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:
> > > > > @"MrForz.1953" said:
> > > > > The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.
> > > > >
> > > > > I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.
> > > >
> > > > IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.
> > >
> > > I thought it was because some jerk said we don't need them.
> >
> > I forgot what the reasoning was they just decided to not buff the skills. I think heartseeker, shadow shot, and something else were going to get buffed but they retracted.
>
> I could get 10-15k Shadow Shots and 20-30k Heartseekers with the magnitude of the damage increases they were proposing lol. The numbers were completely illogical and would not change kit viability in concept at all except make the class more noob-friendly by making the thief more powerful by literally spamming.
>
> People fail to see it because people aren't building offense, but those damage adjustment numbers were super, super bad for the game.
>
> The thief's issues lie in its kit concepts more than anything at the moment when compared to the rest of the game, because powercreeping the rest of the game makes the initiative system and the nature of the thief's skills much harder to balance without making the class downright overpowered.
>
> So yet again, blame the powercreep to other professions.
Then why not focus on thief's strengths rather than trying to treat it like every other god damn profession. Half of our kit is fucking dueling, some situational, and a lot of dodging g. You don't have to increase the damage, just adjust where the threshold is for thief where they go from a punching bag to a god damn threat.
They could have changed heart seekers multipliers for health thresholds. Make thief's interrupts deadly again. Reward them a bit more strongly for evading successfully. Fix our buggy utilities. Improve Daggerstorm so it's not a massive risk that can get bursted through. Improve thieves guild so the AI isn't brain dead. If they want to keep that auto attack chain nerf distributio so damn badly, reward thief a bit more for landing that last god damn hit. Give thief a stronger boon strip. Reduce the cool down on Scorpion wire to encourage thieves to single people out. Buff thief's ability to apply weakness. Remove the one second cool down on stealth attacks and make thief be revealed for hitting aegis instead. Increase the steal range by 100units. Increase the range of dancing dagger by 50 units, increase the cripple duration.
Keep exhaustion but give thief tenacity on unbound dodge when triggered.
Adjust the mechanics of the raid bosses and reduce everyone's damage. Make core thief's traits more competitive with each other. And give him a bit of a nudge for support utilities.
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> @"omgdracula.6345" said:
> > @"MrForz.1953" said:
> > The way Thief seems to be described here feels similar to ye olde Condition Engineer. A spec, or a concept, or build that hasn't evolved while others have been given somewhat more of _everything_ at once.
> >
> > I cannot exactly support buffs however, it's them who have gone too far, not the described cases that are underwhelming.
>
> IIRC they were going to buff some of our skills and then opted out. Which actually showed the glaring issues with the thief weaponsets. Can't buff a single skill because it will be spammed.
I thought it was because some jerk said we don't need them.
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> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > Anet couldn't get back to us about any of this any faster...
> >
> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:
> > > Thief was incredibly overpowered at and surrounding launch. People were literally hitting 15k damage Steals and the Revealed debuff didn't exist which let D/D players endlessly spam CnD in permastealth at 20% higher damage, the BP blind pulse rate was doubled with a larger radius, Dagger Storm had absolutely silly high damage, SA gave permanent might, and D/P's permastealth combo actually **gained** initiative. The thief had "tools" back then because it was legitimately busted. I literally fought and won 1v20 in the first few weeks surrounding launch because everything died in 1-2 hits and I never ran out of stealth or initiative.
> > >
> > > Those may have been the old ideals of the thief but those are not the ones held by the current professions team leads and they haven't held those ideals for many years. Karl has stated repeatedly that the thief is designed to +1. It doesn't matter what any of us think; ANet has stated that's their intention for the role of the class. Go ask some ex-pro players if you really want to. They'll tell you the same thing because ANet literally streamed about it in years' past blatantly stating that is the thief's role: to be weaker on its own and bring unparalleled gank pressure.
> > >
> > > And when was condi shortbow "nasty" in zergs? It certainly wasn't at launch (it was played power back then when it had 1200 range for cluster bomb blasting water fields/dealing very high power damage) and it hasn't exactly been utilized for WvW since HoT.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > The 15k steal is actually a spike with expected behavior. It was a heart seaker into steal mid air, which was combined with mug and Assassin's Signet. Against a damaged target, you'd hit them for 15k if they were not wearing armor. Steal into a backstab was also a common thing.
> >
> > Thief was intentionally designed with high single target burst damage in mind, and it delivered very well. But you still couldn't face roll. Which is why we actually can't rotate our abilities very well. Nevermind the fact that they aren't meant for rotating to begin with.
> >
> > 1v20 was normal for any class back then. Most players were still learning, or just outright did not know how to fight other specs. Thief was the most annoying about it because their mobility allowed them to kite and single people out.
> >
> > Dagger Storm did not actually have high damage. They had to buff months after launch. Even then, the only reason players took it into combat was most of thiefs Elites were just garbage then. You had absolutely no reason to take basilisk venom. It was a blockable venom with only a 1 second stun in all game modes. It wasn't useful. Thieves guild wasn't taken very often because the thieves do not tend to spread out, and get cleaved down in a heart beat. And Dagger Storm was a double edged sword. Damage is based on proximity and the number of players. You only threw up to 6 (I think) daggers in the full duration of it. And how many daggers were thrown were dependent on how close you were to people. If you were in melee range you'd get the full amount. Further away and it lowers. Now it's eight daggers. Stability was the only thing protecting you before the stability changes. Previously it protected you from all CC for the duration of the cast. Now you only have one stack, and one CC will take it away. Against one player, it was worthless. Against multiple players it was decent when combined with shadowsteps.
> >
> > Dagger Storm was nerfed. But only by Stability changes. Since then, players have never touched it. And only take Basilisk Venom. While Anet was toying around with what they wanted it to do. Thieves abused it. There was a time you had multiple charges. So you'd hit someone once, and they'd break it. You hit them again and they'd either break it or get stunned. And now it's a single use unblockable with built in venom share.
> >
> > And I don't give a kitten that Karl wants thief to +1. I don't want thief to be exclusively +1 anymore. I want OLD thief back. I miss the days when Thief had a clean and cut reason to be feared. When players knew he was good at one thing, wrecking your kitten if you were alone and not Ranger, Guardian, or Mesmer. Before all of these rediculous nerfs because players couldn't figure out what our weaknesses were. Or that they just didn't want to play around those weaknesses.
>
> Mug alone used to deal that much damage because it used to be able to crit. Crit damage was also stronger back then because pre-ferocity it had an additional 15% non-additive damage in total (I made a thread about the math years ago when they announced the changes), and Assassin's Signet was +50% rather than +15% and now +540 power. CS used to have more potent damage inflicted on critical hits. Power and stacked ferocity are additive modifiers while damage modifiers are multiplicative. SA/CS mightstack combo was 3700 power and around 280% crit damage with +50% on Assassin's Signet, and it wasn't on people without armor; I can hit 10k CnD's today on people in exotic/ascended without the extra damage scaling and lower crit damage scaling.
>
> Dagger Storm dealt the same damage per bolt but used to apply all of its projectile hits split among nearby targets. It's why you see old videos with things like 20k Dstorms to single targets. Further, it also used to reflect projectiles for longer than its cast due to a bug.
>
> BV was taken for a lot of purposes including PvP/WvW but looked over because of its longer cooldown prior to buffs. It originally applied the Petrified effect which ignored stability and could not be stunbroken from. People just ran DStorm often because early on longbow ranger with 100% quickness cast speed was one-shotting things since the thief had no DR and everyone built berserker gear and because it did a stupid amount of damage to groups or less than three people.
>
> At release, thief was legitimately overpowered, and most of the problems the thief faces today aren't because it is weak but because other professions have no gaps of vulnerability and because the initiative system does not scale well in conjunction with cooldown powercreep.
>
> Sources on the design of the thief stating it's supposed to be an unparalleled duelist are very, very old. Daredevil was supposed to be better as a fighter, and it is/was and had to get toned down because it was spammy and overly strong.
>
> If other professions are doing what the thief is supposed to, but better, then the problem is those other professions being too powerful rather than the thief too weak. I don't understand why there's resistance to this claim.
>
> If there is a disagreement about being relegated to +1 duty, then do some inspection and ask why that is. Hints: It's shortbow and simultaneous offense + defense on other professions. It's boon application and powercreeped defenses and spammable skills from every profession with no counterplay. It's that everyone's just a walking ball of stats with no skill required to do anything. All of this has been discussed to death. So many people have quit because of it.
>
> But I digress. If powercreep is going to be all people ask for these days, rather than looking at other professions and the problematic design of major game elements, it's more reasoning for me and players of similar mindset to not to come back to the game. Cover up symptoms as much as you want, but it's not going to fix any of the actual problems with the thief, the game, or the relative balance.
Asking for Thief to be returned to their original spot in the game is not asking for power creep. It's asking for their role in the game to be returned.
I never complained about nerfs from launch through half of HoT. They were reasonable and palpable, and we still had a defining role. Then shit started getting absurd. Instead of finding a better solution to Backstab against Aegis, what do they do? Instead of doing something to encourage daredevil to stay and fight in a battle they had no hope in from the start, what do they do? Instead of softening up the auto chain nerf so it didn't have such a huge impact on the first two, what did they do?
At this point I am assuming that the word power creep is being used as a political tool rather than referring to the problem it represents. At the start of HoT, THAT was power creep. Reaper couldn't be killed. Scrapper did bullshit damage with area control. Chrono made people invulnerable. Daredevil gives a raw percentile damage increase with no trade offs. And somehow wanting thiefs role to be reevaluated is power creep? Fuck off. As it stands there's no real reason to choose thief over anyone else anymore.
[wvw] Need some explanations from experienced thieves
in Thief
Posted
> @"MUDse.7623" said:
> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:
> > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:
> > > > @"Grandtomatoe.2045" said:
> > > > Thief backstab is getting really strong! But they deserve it its a tough attack to set up. So much mass damage aoe in this game!
> > >
> > > it really isnt though, not with shadow arts and DE. it can be tricky or a "tough" as a meta D/p but it is very easy to land a back stab when you can pretty much be in stealth indefinitely.
> >
> > No it's tough. Indefinite stealth only works assuming that you're using the D/P build. Give it a few, and I'm sure that Anet will find some way to nerf it into being unusable. Even if they don't, if you got those players smart enough to bring a reveal utility for once, instead of complaining about perma stealth thieves... you're kinda screwed if you were packing basilisk venom.
> >
> > Dual Daggers, it's a frustrating experience because the players don't exactly hold still for you. Combined with that 1 second delay for a kitten miss.
>
> you dont need an offhand pistol to permastealth as DE with SA. but as backstab is super slow and feels like it has maybe half the normal melee range landing it without a teleport on a moving target can be difficult. i would gladly see the cooldown of backstab increased to 2 seconds if it was faster and more fluid.
If it was faster, I probably wouldn't mind it. But increasing it to two seconds, I don't know about that. Two seconds for dagger only maybe.... but only the Deadeye can justify that sort of cool down due to the raw hurt it pushes. And tacking that onto Deadeye only would make the class feel pretty terrible with dagger. It'd be as bullshit as the Exhaustion nerf to Unhindered Combatant.
Making it unblockable would completely negate the main reason why the cool down was added in the first place (A response to backstab being blocked by aegis, but not revealing the thief). And increasing the backstab damage would make other players scream out in outrage.
But back to the perma stealth bit. That's assuming Deadeye, and not the other specs.