Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

> @"DerJoker.9081" said:

> The patch is awesome!!

> Some things are still not ideal, but all in all, look at what happened:

> Powercreep reduced: CHECK

> Passive defenses reduced: CHECK

> Taking away dmg or survivability from strong classes instead of adding more of it to weak ones: CHECK

>

> It can not be perfect, but it is the biggest step in the right direction we had in a long time!

> I understand that it is important to hint at what is not working nicely at the moment, pls take time and appreciate what Anet is doing as well!

>

I can't agree with you here.

Most of these nerfs are fine. Not fully sure about how I feel about the cool downs. But as it stands my main class has completely lost all value in PvP. And lost just about everything that's supposed to define it's design. Granted this conclusion is from ALL of the harsh nerfs over the years, but this last one is a nail in the coffin.

Before, it was manageable. As you get to higher brackets, limitations started getting in the way. To get around the years of nerfs I've has to abuse every small little trick. Even using about face and roll abilities to cut people off or get around them. Or turning the camera to the side and about facing to strafe at speed.

Now it is like I have to put in FAR more effort than my opponents to win any fight as a thief. Waaaay too much than I'm willing to tolerate. If they tone down that AA Nerf... We'll see. But even with taking zerks, you're not doing anything without popping assassin's signet.

I honestly thought the auto nerf wouldn't be a problem. Was I wrong.

I'll probably just sit this season out. Anet made it clear they don't want thieves. Or make a mesmer as they basically can do everything a thief is supposed to and are relevant.

The potato is a mesmer.

I was indifferent about the Thief Auto-Attack nerfs at first. I shrugged it off. Then I played a few matches of PvP. It feels like I'm about to have a panic attack when I try to kill anyone. I'm not just salty. Every molecule of my being has been surgically replaced with NaCl.

Thief is in the D tier in my opinion. I've played some games. The AA nerf is horrible.

I'd rather keep EU and NA separate. There's a reason why. IT's because any connection across the damn atlantic is gonna be insanely slow.

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> I don't know which monkey is responsible for these ""balance"" change, but I'm pretty sure it's some kind of monkey.

I'm alright with most of the cooldown nerfs and buffs. But I don't know what's more atrocious. What they did to Unhindered Combatant with that exhaustion bullshit, or the fact they felt it necessary to nerf Thief's auto-attacks on his core weapons effectively making a class who's NOT DESIGNED for sustained fights and DESIGNED to kill people fast... unable to do the damage to get the job done.

I'm a deadeye who gets down and dirty with people who challenge me in melee. What am I to do now that the melee weapons are nerfed so badly that my mark basically UNDOs the damage of this nerf? I'm having a rough time trying to kill shit with Dagger dagger. The only way I'm doing anything good, is if I take freaking Assassin's Signet and pop it every 20s and hope to god I land a damn backstab. There goes one slot for my UTILITIES! HUR HUR! It feels bad when a freaking engie is able to out trade me by autos alone. I can't even IMAGINE what this feels like on Core Thief builds, which were still good before this BS. Yes I can still wreck face with a rifle, but kiting on it is expensive and not worth the wasted time.

I guess I might as well make a Mesmer. They're the new thieves now. And I don't mean for being OP. I mean actually doing what a thief is supposed to do.

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"Lotus.1682" said:

> > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > I think I can handle the damage loss thief suffers with these changes AS LONG AS the other classes in relative terms are equally impacted. For that reason it going to be a bit of time before I can make any sort of accurate assessment as to where the Thief now stands.

> >

> > This definitely seems to be the case for power based builds. Unfortunately condi really doesn't seem to have changed much. Can't really speak to D/P, but S/D is much worse against condi builds now mainly as a result of pain response (and to a lesser extend RFI CD), but also because we no longer have as much burst to put classes down quickly. Sustained fights against classes like scourge are pretty much unwinnable now.

> >

> > Basically they turned S/D into a sustained fighter while nerfing all our sustain. Part of me thinks they want to kill core thief so people buy the expansions. The other part of me thinks they just hate the thief class in general for PvP purposes since mesmer is pretty much a better version of thief in almost all regards.

>

> I am WvW primarily so will not notice the loss of PAIN response. That said condition damage output in WvW is much higher in any case. As to mesmer, i do toy with a few builds off and on but nver got into them all that much so can not claim expertise on them. What I will say is even with that limited knowledge I did not think the changes that were proposed and then implemented did anything near what was needed to tone them done to a proper place. Now while they did indicate there will be a fuller balance patch later, the time between now and then is going to lead to a lot of salt.

More salt than we have on the planet earth... more salt thgan what one may find on Mars. And far more salt than what we can accumulate from mining both mars and earth together. Ladies and gentlemen... I assure you... there will be enough salt for you to suffocate before you drown.

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> I did see a Rifle DE the other night who caught me totally off guard as I was trying to fight with one hand while talking on the phone with the other. Then after him there was a cluster of them in short order. The first was very good , the ones I ran into later not so much so.

>

> Subjectively, while d/p and s/d still seeem to dominate (followed by p/p) , I do think there a trend upwards in DE rifle in WvW.

It's highly dependent on player skill and playstyle. Most DEs in WvW just suck. Half of them I run into either blow all of their init immediately with BQoBK, or they wait in perma stealth for seven seconds like they think they're getting a free kill. I make it a living hell for them to get up to me, and when they get close I'm not afraid to show them Deadeye with M7 is equally Nasty in melee.

Mesmers... They were balanced at launch... Now you always need them in raids. They hit harder than thieves, tank and cc better than guardians, have insane damage in raids, best buffs in the game, the most versatile kit ever. They're now better thieves and keep getting ramped up.

As a thief main... I got one thing to say.

THEY TOOK MAH JURB!!!

I'd be forced to bench my thief if any of these changes were PvE. Im having a hard time killing shit with my daggers.

> @"ilmau.9781" said:

> to be more accurate, this patch is just another useless one, nothing will change beacouse this is NOT THE WAY TO BALANCE A GAME, you do not nerf skills/classes but you give classes a way to handle OP ones. For example, if Condi is an issue you do not nerf condi, you do increase cleanse. If ppl complain for 10k aoe Ravenant hammer hit you do not nerf the hammer skill you do give ppl a way to handle it.

>

> BEACOUSE IF YOU KEEP NERFING AND PPL KEEP PLAYING THE MORE BROKEN THING YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE TO NERF SOMETHING.

>

> Keep going this way and will see where we go.

That's a clear example of how not to balance a game... Making everyone stronger to compensate for something OP is a good way to end up with a fucking mess. Condi wasn't nerfed, it was made into what it was intended to be.

These nerfs and buffs aren't good though in my opinion. It looks like they tried to normalize things, which is a f*cking horrible idea when each class has a playstyle to cater to, and each class has a unique set of utilities, skills, and elites.

> @"Kasdwer.3721" said:

> okay since we are talking about pvp, the problem is simple:

> powercreep

> if you want to make every new elite spec stronger than the last one and core, it will just increase the powercreep

> what will the consenquences be?

> everything will either be oneshot or tanky enough that its unkillable

> just like it was at release at pof

> do you really want that? unkillable fb and spellbreaker while scourges kill everything in 1 touch

>

> thats why you need to have elite specs that give more options, but not direct upgrades

... So we take away the ONE thing thieves had left over the other classes... Because power creeps.

So we dunk engie in the trash... Because power creeps.

And we make Mesmers broken as shit and barely tone them down... Because power creeps.

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > Thank you guys, especially Kageseigi.2150, for the in-depth explanations! :3 Shadow Art traits extend the time, _that's_ how thieves can keep the cloak for their group up for so long. (_in need of light bulb emoticon_) :) As soon as I have leveled my new Charr thief, I'll practice the art of stealth. ;)

>

> You're very welcome! :-)

>

> I'm not sure if Meld with Shadows extends Stealth for groups or only for the Thief. However, 11 seconds is quite a while in Stealth... and Swiftness can get them a long way in that amount of time.

> But as long as you can keep the group together and away from enemies, a Thief can Black Powder+Cluster Bomb the group to extend their Stealth.

>

> Notice, though, Meld with Shadows does not grant an extra second when Stealth is gained from combinations... even for the Thief.

>

> Good luck with your Charr Thief! As long as you're not overly fond of apples, you should be just fine! :-D

*Crys in charr*

Thief's autos for dagger and sword were nerfed by 14%. Unfortunately, backstab is also an auto. You need to focus more on your 2-5 skills now... But the init costs are too high to use them extensively for what they push out in damage. Especially when they are designed for specific circumstances. Or use a staff or rifle. It feels like a harsh struggle now. Kinda bullshit, but Anets never been doing us favors.

Just play the game and figure it out for yourself. It hasn't even been a dang day yet

I'm more concerned about the bug fixes... Shadow Trap is so nice when it actually fucking works.

Otherwise. I'm only annoyed by the auto attack reductions. Kinda terrible if our weapon skills or backstabs don't land. I'm not sure if they chunk as hard as they need to to compensate.

Ooor... Put it into WvW and give players a reason.

Anet still thinks it's ok for other specs to do what thief is supposed to be the best at.

I'd probably go with some toughness and SA to dick on people if forced to use a different stat.

Not the most desired class... But affective.

I use Dagger Dagger. Though I usually carry Infiltrator's Signet with it so I can engage. I recommend mapping About face if you take withdraw or roll for initiative so you can use them to engage better, or take shadow step. It's viable.

But I'm no super elite face on the internet with 10,000 viewers, so I won't tell you it's meta or it sucks.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"mauried.5608" said:

> > Its sad that in this game everyone seems so fixated on maximum dps, kill monsters as quick as possible, and get as many rewards as possible in the least possible time, that the concept of playing the game just for fun is totally lost.

> > Which is why I play Engineers because they are fun.

> >

>

> Years ago many players tried to warn the community about the cancer of raids...we were not listened

Don't let the GW2 Reddit hear you say that. You will get down voted into oblivion and flamed.

> @"InsaneQR.7412" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > The engie needed a redesign more than the mesmer.

> Every class actually needs a second look to update core to the current state of the game, some just less than others.

>

True... but Engie would honestly be the first thing I'd touch. I am mostly a thief main mind you. So this isn't me being bias. But when I tried playing the Engine up to level 60 if I remember correctly... I just couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing. I'm not saying it's too complicated. To me that'd be the charm of the Engie if you can figure him out, and actually get rewarded greatly for it. It's just not intuitive.

I finally took a look at it again, well mostly the prices and found that they are just normal Superior Rune prices really. But the real kicker is that despite so many complaints about it being worthless... it still hasn't gotten a redesign.

So I'm guessing this means that it works in someone's data... I guess. The real question is... does anyone actually use the stupid thing? We already pointed out how bad this thing is for a might generator when you have others that does the job much better without needing you to burn a 30+second cooldown for 2 stacks of might.

Heck... the Daredevil and Thief runes are far more effective on the deadeye than the Deadeye's own rune!

I'd love to see "No Valid Path to Target" to just go away period.