Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

Marauder, Valid, or Seems for general purpose.

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > @"Karl McLain.5604" Any input? We're a pack of daunted wolves with a broken identity.

>

> Beg your pardon?

> I identify myself as a punching bag, mind you.

And Punching bags, and charrs. And murder floofs. And blunted knives. And dwarves, and humans, plant monsters, flying sphaghiti sticks, nope ropes, cthulhu noodles, giants, lizard people, quaggans, krait bait, and so on.

@"Karl McLain.5604" Any input? We're a pack of daunted wolves with a broken identity.

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > Anet couldn't get back to us about any of this any faster...

> >

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > Thief was incredibly overpowered at and surrounding launch. People were literally hitting 15k damage Steals and the Revealed debuff didn't exist which let D/D players endlessly spam CnD in permastealth at 20% higher damage, the BP blind pulse rate was doubled with a larger radius, Dagger Storm had absolutely silly high damage, SA gave permanent might, and D/P's permastealth combo actually **gained** initiative. The thief had "tools" back then because it was legitimately busted. I literally fought and won 1v20 in the first few weeks surrounding launch because everything died in 1-2 hits and I never ran out of stealth or initiative.

> > >

> > > Those may have been the old ideals of the thief but those are not the ones held by the current professions team leads and they haven't held those ideals for many years. Karl has stated repeatedly that the thief is designed to +1. It doesn't matter what any of us think; ANet has stated that's their intention for the role of the class. Go ask some ex-pro players if you really want to. They'll tell you the same thing because ANet literally streamed about it in years' past blatantly stating that is the thief's role: to be weaker on its own and bring unparalleled gank pressure.

> > >

> > > And when was condi shortbow "nasty" in zergs? It certainly wasn't at launch (it was played power back then when it had 1200 range for cluster bomb blasting water fields/dealing very high power damage) and it hasn't exactly been utilized for WvW since HoT.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > The 15k steal is actually a spike with expected behavior. It was a heart seaker into steal mid air, which was combined with mug and Assassin's Signet. Against a damaged target, you'd hit them for 15k if they were not wearing armor. Steal into a backstab was also a common thing.

> >

> > Thief was intentionally designed with high single target burst damage in mind, and it delivered very well. But you still couldn't face roll. Which is why we actually can't rotate our abilities very well. Nevermind the fact that they aren't meant for rotating to begin with.

> >

> > 1v20 was normal for any class back then. Most players were still learning, or just outright did not know how to fight other specs. Thief was the most annoying about it because their mobility allowed them to kite and single people out.

> >

> > Dagger Storm did not actually have high damage. They had to buff months after launch. Even then, the only reason players took it into combat was most of thiefs Elites were just garbage then. You had absolutely no reason to take basilisk venom. It was a blockable venom with only a 1 second stun in all game modes. It wasn't useful. Thieves guild wasn't taken very often because the thieves do not tend to spread out, and get cleaved down in a heart beat. And Dagger Storm was a double edged sword. Damage is based on proximity and the number of players. You only threw up to 6 (I think) daggers in the full duration of it. And how many daggers were thrown were dependent on how close you were to people. If you were in melee range you'd get the full amount. Further away and it lowers. Now it's eight daggers. Stability was the only thing protecting you before the stability changes. Previously it protected you from all CC for the duration of the cast. Now you only have one stack, and one CC will take it away. Against one player, it was worthless. Against multiple players it was decent when combined with shadowsteps.

> >

> > Dagger Storm was nerfed. But only by Stability changes. Since then, players have never touched it. And only take Basilisk Venom. While Anet was toying around with what they wanted it to do. Thieves abused it. There was a time you had multiple charges. So you'd hit someone once, and they'd break it. You hit them again and they'd either break it or get stunned. And now it's a single use unblockable with built in venom share.

> >

> > And I don't give a kitten that Karl wants thief to +1. I don't want thief to be exclusively +1 anymore. I want OLD thief back. I miss the days when Thief had a clean and cut reason to be feared. When players knew he was good at one thing, wrecking your kitten if you were alone and not Ranger, Guardian, or Mesmer. Before all of these rediculous nerfs because players couldn't figure out what our weaknesses were. Or that they just didn't want to play around those weaknesses.

>

> For the record I cannot find anywhere where Karl stated thief is a +1 and that is what we want it to be anywhere.

As you can see ;-; I am very heart broken about thief right now.

Anet couldn't get back to us about any of this any faster...

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Thief was incredibly overpowered at and surrounding launch. People were literally hitting 15k damage Steals and the Revealed debuff didn't exist which let D/D players endlessly spam CnD in permastealth at 20% higher damage, the BP blind pulse rate was doubled with a larger radius, Dagger Storm had absolutely silly high damage, SA gave permanent might, and D/P's permastealth combo actually **gained** initiative. The thief had "tools" back then because it was legitimately busted. I literally fought and won 1v20 in the first few weeks surrounding launch because everything died in 1-2 hits and I never ran out of stealth or initiative.

>

> Those may have been the old ideals of the thief but those are not the ones held by the current professions team leads and they haven't held those ideals for many years. Karl has stated repeatedly that the thief is designed to +1. It doesn't matter what any of us think; ANet has stated that's their intention for the role of the class. Go ask some ex-pro players if you really want to. They'll tell you the same thing because ANet literally streamed about it in years' past blatantly stating that is the thief's role: to be weaker on its own and bring unparalleled gank pressure.

>

> And when was condi shortbow "nasty" in zergs? It certainly wasn't at launch (it was played power back then when it had 1200 range for cluster bomb blasting water fields/dealing very high power damage) and it hasn't exactly been utilized for WvW since HoT.

>

>

The 15k steal is actually a spike with expected behavior. It was a heart seaker into steal mid air, which was combined with mug and Assassin's Signet. Against a damaged target, you'd hit them for 15k if they were not wearing armor. Steal into a backstab was also a common thing.

Thief was intentionally designed with high single target burst damage in mind, and it delivered very well. But you still couldn't face roll. Which is why we actually can't rotate our abilities very well. Nevermind the fact that they aren't meant for rotating to begin with.

1v20 was normal for any class back then. Most players were still learning, or just outright did not know how to fight other specs. Thief was the most annoying about it because their mobility allowed them to kite and single people out.

Dagger Storm did not actually have high damage. They had to buff months after launch. Even then, the only reason players took it into combat was most of thiefs Elites were just garbage then. You had absolutely no reason to take basilisk venom. It was a blockable venom with only a 1 second stun in all game modes. It wasn't useful. Thieves guild wasn't taken very often because the thieves do not tend to spread out, and get cleaved down in a heart beat. And Dagger Storm was a double edged sword. Damage is based on proximity and the number of players. You only threw up to 6 (I think) daggers in the full duration of it. And how many daggers were thrown were dependent on how close you were to people. If you were in melee range you'd get the full amount. Further away and it lowers. Now it's eight daggers. Stability was the only thing protecting you before the stability changes. Previously it protected you from all CC for the duration of the cast. Now you only have one stack, and one CC will take it away. Against one player, it was worthless. Against multiple players it was decent when combined with shadowsteps.

Dagger Storm was nerfed. But only by Stability changes. Since then, players have never touched it. And only take Basilisk Venom. While Anet was toying around with what they wanted it to do. Thieves abused it. There was a time you had multiple charges. So you'd hit someone once, and they'd break it. You hit them again and they'd either break it or get stunned. And now it's a single use unblockable with built in venom share.

And I don't give a FUCK that Karl wants thief to +1. I don't want thief to be exclusively +1 anymore. I want OLD thief back. I miss the days when Thief had a clean and cut reason to be feared. When players knew he was good at one thing, wrecking your shit if you were alone and not Ranger, Guardian, or Mesmer. Before all of these rediculous nerfs because players couldn't figure out what our weaknesses were. Or that they just didn't want to play around those weaknesses.

Rev and Thief equally.

I love thief to death. At launch, they were an amazingly well designed PvP profession that excelled at one on one fights. They were fluid, and all around just felt good and responsive. Even though I hate all of Anet's balance changes, the communities constant complaints, all of our weaknesses, lowish reward for most things we do, the fact that other classes are capable doing things we're supposed to be good at more efficently and better... I won't stop playing the class.

Not too fond of Warrior or Mesmer.

Warrior because it feels pretty standard to me with few things that makes it really stand out from other MMOs.

Mesmers not because they are currently broken. But because they are invading far too much into thief's territory. And are capable of doing most things a thief is supposed to be good at, better. Dodging? Check. Being incredibly hard to kill? Check. Damage? Check. Mobility? Check.

Then having the second least expensive armor, to craft yourself. The most fucking desired in Raids because of Alacrity (Which barely does shit for thieves). And for some stupid reason, the least nerfed class after the community has been complaining about them. Meanwhile thief gets a completely unreasonably distributed auto attack nerf that more realistically cut their damage in half - because the full chain is fucking hard to land. Gets shot in the foot for escaping a fight by losing their main line of defense rather than giving thief something to ENCOURAGE them to stay and fight. A 1 second delay to backstab because they didn't want to change the behavior of what happens when you stab someone with aegis. Pulmonary Impact which required skill to trigger and was pretty hard to get, got a total of a 50% damage nerf over two nerfs. Still a handful of buggy utilities. And as useful in the water as revenant.

And now... we don't even know what the heck we're supposed to excell in! Damage? Apparently not anymore!

I don't even recommend the class to people anymore. I tell them don't touch the class. You'll fall in love with it, and then it will break your heart. You'll feel like a heart broken man that spends the rest of his days neck deep in alcoholism because you couldn't let go. That or a war veteran who remembered the good ole days, but had both legs blown off and your insurance would only buy you a board with a nail for you to get around on. No wheels. That's what I feel like anyways.

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> The thief isn't meant to be a potent class in fights. ANet has been adamant about that for a long time. Thus the duty of +1 relegation.

>

> Which I kind of understand because the dirty tricks that fuels the profession can easily feel like cheese and be annoying to play against. Permanent stealth and burst. Lots of mobility. Near-permanent evades. Insane one-button burst. CC spam... all of these builds have been dominant in the past and really don't require a lot of skill to play and crush the scene at the lower levels.

>

> Also I don't think Ben has any say in profession design. None of the PvP devs ever did. That's solely on the professions team which seems to be an entirely separate group of people.

Thief was designed initially to be really good at PvP and taking down players. I fucking hate our current state. It was intended to be a potent class in fights that depended on user's skill. If you look at the core kit. It was designed around some amount of escape or chase, the ability to single people out, to slow people down, whittle them down, or to catch up to them. Most of the utilities weren't too useful in PvE. THe off hand pistols were duelist weapons. They interrupted attacks, blinded, and allowed the thief to catch up to people. The dagger offhand is designed to stay on top of people and to slow people down. But unfortunately too many people complained about thief being broken, despite the large number of short comings.

+1 was not design. That was just some stuff that became meta in the player base because of how Mobile thief is, along with how easy the strat is for most players. If the thief was actually good, then if you weren't a mesmer or a guardian and you ran around the corner thinking you can kill the thief. The thief would just flat out kill you.

Hell at launch and before all these nerfs. Thief was incredibly versatile in their roles.

in SPvP +1 wasn't the main thief function.

Thief would often run ahead of the team to cap a flanking control point (not always far).

Thief's goal was to often intercept and kill players that were roaming check points. If a team fight broke out, you had plenty of options. Jump in and kill the Ele, Ranger, or distract the mesmer. Isolate one of the enemy players from their team and kill them with scorpion wire or an Engie Gunbutt.

Flank control points and kill who ever is guarding it.

in WvW. You were scouts, roamers, backline assassins, the guy that kept the zerg from getting destroyed by killing the Rangers and Elementalist who are posted up on hills. Sabotuers who cloaked and ran behind the enemy zerg to destroy their siege weapons. Condi thieves were nasty in zergs because of Shortbows poison field. etc.

Hold kneel

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

>

> > i mostly open with spotter into trb because with just trb most dodge after the first hit, in case of most mesmer you will recieve the bullets right back. for mesmers i only use spotters till malice is up a bit then swap to dagger with gurateed crit and onehit :D

> Honestly, given that mirage can dodge even when immobed I rarely bother with spotter's shot unless I'm being body blocked or immobing lone players in front of our group, especially since most chrono die easier as they have less evades as it is. It's not a bad strategy tho, and at close to max range you can fire off a spotter's shot then DJ before the first shot reveals you. Dagger is more effective you're right, I dislike D/P so I run S/D instead. Strengths and weaknesses to both I guess ^^

> > i still miss the corrupt from CB , i mainly used it to get rid of protection but now as uninterruptable stealth access lets us play more aggressive i dont need to get rid of protection anymore,

> Yup, I do miss timing CB and three round burst at close to max range tho. It all hit at once due to the slow projectile speed on CB which made it a one shot vs most thieves. That said I miss it less than I would have before the auto nerf, that really helped deadeye out vs daredevils in the long run.

> > if the opponent was not a thief/mesmer i really loved even against good trying to hit DJ, because there was allways a way to make them take it with baiting dodges and reflects or baiting a movement skill.

> Yeah, it's always fun to try to hit something evasive with a telegraphed skill. Especially so since you only had to land it once haha

> > while the projectile block is nice the setup IMO is stupid as you need to aim the direction and it is placed on a distant , i would prefer it being cast on the deadeye similar to smoke screen so you would have a 360° projectile protection and wouldnt be forced to move around the wall while kneeling.

> ~~I think a 360 block might be slightly too much given how spammable it is. It's clunky you're right, but it lasts long enough for you to spike, wait out revealed and stealth, so it's not the worst I guess? It's not something I'd use at close enough range that moving is a problem, only if the ranger is trying to stay at max distance all the time.~~ Never mind, I misunderstood

>

> Don't get me wrong, deadeye could definitely still use tweaks, PvE is a mess but so is thief in general for that game mode. I'm just saying it's not the end of the world, I guess ^^

>

>

Could be wrong. but everyone can dodge while immobilized. You just do a very strange hop up into the air and roll without moving.

Acrobatics/Shadow Arts/Deadeye - A durable Deadeye with high uptime on dodging.

Acrobatics/Trickery/Criticaly Strikes - Core thief classic. The combo that often made people complain about Thief in past.

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> i didnt say you need to be able to pick and choose fights, but it should not be the case that most of the encounters you have are autoloose because of numbers. there is nothing that helps people to fight outnumbered, so you either need tools to avoid such fights were there is 0 chance to gain anything or there is simply no reason to roam alone as it is inefficient.

Daredevil and Core thief were actually pretty decent at fighting outnumbered battles. 1vMulti usually requires the Thief to be very good at repositioning and forcefully repositioning players. Caltrops, needle traps, Scorpion Wire, DareDevil's block and kick, shadow steps. etc. This was so you can take them on one at a time.

Mind you, it's really stressful and obviously not an easy fight to begin with. And the keyword here was "were". This was back when our damage and ability to break out of soft CC was pretty much unchallenged which made us dangerous in 1v1s, and scary when we plus one. But that apparently pissed players off enough that Anet felt the need to nerf thief rather than letting them figure out that we have a lot of weaknesses that thief players have to compensate for or watch out for.

They even advertised thief as a monster in PvP that you do not want to fight alone.

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> I was playing pvp last night with a buddy we are both in gold 3 on the cusp of plat 1. During a game I was just watching mesmers and rangers and just other classes seem to be doing thief better than thief itself. Every class being self sufficient. Able to survive, deal damage, etc. Then I looked at my thief who has pretty much been put into a +1 role that really isn't needed since mesmers are just straight up better.

>

> I watched a mesmer weave in and out of stealth and could not help but go man, they do that with just skills, and here I am the class archetype of attacking from the shadows and I have to blow a 40 second cooldown to gain stealth or most of my initiative.

>

> We need help.

You're not wrong. It's a common complaint from the Thief community, and one that Anet has never touched on.

I've pretty much only played thief since the games Launch. It's the only spec that I personally find fun. But now we're hitting a point where other professions are practically doing things much more efficiently than us, and don't suffer anywhere near the same drawbacks we do. And it hasn't been addressed. Why -ARE- we playing thief when it's barely rewarding anymore.

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" I really WISH anet would answer the questions about what their Design goals or intent for thief is. Because I'm not seeing any hints of it anymore.

> @"Urejt.5648" said:

> Rifle deadeye is no longer good in pvp due to very weak survivalability. Connecting dodge with stealth is very bad for the class. Fast patch is requested.

I find it hard to believe your top anything. If it's true, then I guess EU feels they're not responsible for their performance.

Deadeyes survivability is fine.

You still have access to acrobatics which reduces your dodge Regen from 10secs a dodge to 5secs. Passive movement enhancements in acrobatics. 2secs of evasion in acrobatics. You have good access to stealth and shadow arts gives you plenty of options. Ironsight is baseline for Deadeye so you get 10% damage reduction for free against your marked target. You got a reliable backwards shadow step than can be manipulated well enough to behave like infiltrators arrow. Cheap projectile hate. Sword providing you. Damaging dodge. Terrain dominance that no other spec can even match. A delayed knockdown (better than it sounds). A launch and cloak. Thief's traps. Three in utility shadowsteps, one of them can be used to zone an area. Ability to remove revealed. And health Regen on critical strikes. Regen for spending init in acrobatics. Trickery drops caltrops for rolling. One of your trait lines drops needles for healing. You can get Regen for killing someone. You got enough burst to afford dropping some damage for healing power or toughness.

How about you stop being a meta slave and build something for yourself? That, or go back to playing daredevil which is designed to be a tanky melee fighter.

No thank you. I'm fine with malice on ini. I'd rather it be with previous suggestions where it's dependent on ini spent rather than critting

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those pesky facts again.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...........................

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again those pesky facts.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

> > > > >

> > > > > My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

> > > > >

> > > > > And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

> > > > >

> > > > > Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

> > > > >

> > > > > It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

> > > >

> > > > Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

> > > > > Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

> > > > >

> > > > > NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

> > > >

> > > > Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

> > > >

> > > > DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

> > >

> > > Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

> >

> > The only facts on a forum for a game are those that come from the developers. Players have speculation/anecdote based on tests/experience at best.

> >

> > The facts in this thread come from the patch notes. Anything else is speculation or opinion.

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > It takes no thought on the DE's part to get use out of the unblockable part of DJ. I don't like that I can exert no effort whatsoever and counter something that's the result of (usually) a 20+ sec skill.

> > >

> > > If there's a way to make the shot go through stuff like guardian shield 5, ele air..4 I think? but NOT things like warrior shield 5, then I thinThink? Would be a fair trade/adjustment.

> > >

> > > Alternatively, it takes little to zero effort on the part of...well, anyone, to make use of body blocking in order to effectively nullify the DE's 'finishing move'. It can even be totally blocked by a Mesmer clone (which has what, 2kish health? Little more? To totally negate a 10k+ dmg skill). I'm such situations (there are many), the effort -> reward: effort -> counter ratio is extremely unbalanced. Ideally the unblockable would be removed in exchange for Pierce (and maybe a boon strip? >.>).

> > >

> > > Even more ideally, there would be a 'we guarantee that your finishing shot will reach the target. Beyond that we guarantee nothing' way of thought. So your shot would go through the (I think) ridiculous amount of projectile hate in the game, but you would still have to worry about it getting reflected or blocked by more...i don't know how to put it, more 'personal' blocks? War shield 5, engi shield 5, aegis (maybe- lot of aegis flying around lately with support guards), ranger sword 4, etc. But you wouldn't have all of your efforts negated by a all the total projectile denial skills infesting the game.

> > >

> > > They could also balance this out by changing kneel rifle 4 a bit to give some melee protection at the cost of ranged protection. Spawns smoke field, absorbs -any- number attacks. I love the smoke field and blocking all projectiles from a direction, and it's nice to have a bit of something to cover up weaknesses, but I think it less covers up and more...totslly negates.

> >

> > Projectile hate, in my opinion, needs an overhaul. It's too simplistic as it is, that everything is considered a block on equal footing (regardless of how the tooltip reads), making unblockable the only pair of scissors for paper in that game of rock/paper/scissors.

> >

> > I miss the old risk of DJ, the chance that something could block or (especially) reflect a shot. Both warr and engi shield have decent cooldowns for their reflects, but it is no longer rewarding to time that reflect well against Death's Judgment.

> >

> > I do think pierce would've been far more useful on the attack than unblockable. Anet already made it so the damage bonus gets applied only to the marked target, so I don't know why there's not more of a guarantee for the shot to reach that target (then the target is free to dodge, evade, block, reflect, or go invuln).

>

> Yes and the facts show there is still a Plethora Of counterplay in game with an added new one, all of which are listed in the patchnotes, that DJ isn’t the hardest hitting skill without Malice(your claim that it is) again shown by patch notes and ingame tooltips and supported by the Wiki, the definition of Spammable skills in regards to Video games shows that DJ does not fall under that definition by any means, not to mention the fact to cast DJ multiple times you have to cast other skills or resources between each and every cast, again those pesky facts keep proving your claims of DJ wrong, so please back up your claims with facts, of what you said was true it wouldn’t be difficult in the slightest.

>

> Just because someone makes claims doesn’t mean they are true especially when those claims lack any facts to back them up.

I'm done with this thread. Good luck arguing with OP

> @"Zacchary.6183" said:

> Typically no. Unless you want to do an aoe sweep or backstep, nobody really uses those skills.

I use them in PvP

> @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Those pesky facts again.

> > > > > > > > > > > ...........................

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Again those pesky facts.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

> > > > >

> > > > > You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

> > > > >

> > > > > This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

> > > >

> > > > We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

> > > >

> > > > And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

> > > >

> > > > And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

> > >

> > > As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

> > >

> > > You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

> > >

> > > DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

> >

> > My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

> >

> > And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

> >

> > Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

> >

> > It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

>

> Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

>

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> > > An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

> > Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

> >

> > NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

> >

>

> I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

>

> Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

>

> DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

> @"Shadowcat.2680" said:

> An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those damn Sand Lions would fuck up any gunslinger.

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Kneel needs an animation as it'd look silly otherwise, so it'll probably never be instant as then it'd also need to be a stunbreak (OP). Cutting the aftercast would probably be enough to make it fluid in use but not usable while in CC or some other tell just like every other skill.

Can be sped up however. The animations all look like they are slowly hunkering down. Now with Deadeye being much faster - it'd make sense to change the animation to Deadeye dropping on his rear instead. Sounds silly, but it's actually a thing. What's happening is you're landing on your rear and an outstreatched leg, and setting the rifle on your other knee like a stand.

To speed up the animation for them getting up. Standing leg (the knee you rest the rifle on), and empty hand pushes on the ground at the same time for a quick hop to get your feet under yourself.

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> ***Stealth Attacks***

>

> Malicious Backstab

> * Issue: Due to 10% per malice damage scaling this is now the preferred stealth attack. While it lacks the unblockable aspect it gains potential oneshot capacity which overshadows other stealth attacks which have comparatively weaker bonuses. Weaker doesn’t mean every skill should be oneshot damage. It just means that the bonuses have inconsistent tactical value.

I know Anet's first instinct is to nerf this rather than giving the player a reason to use something else. So I will provide a solution.

Solution: Give other Stealth attacks a unique property about them at max malice, and reduce their current malice effects if needed. These are just examples to get the idea across. Not suggestions I expect to get added. At Max Malice, the enemy becomes a Nemesis.

Sword: Malicious Tactical Strike behaves as normal. At Max Malice, Tactical Strike behaves like a Smoke Scale's shadow assault. Spreads attacks across group of enemies.

Shortbow: Malicious Surprise Attack behaves as normal till max malice. At Max, venoms applied to the first shot is applied to newly spawns arrows without additional charges at reduced effectiveness.

Pistol: Malicious Sneak attack behaves as normal. At max malice, gives a few stacks of Ricochette at the end of the attack.

It seems a bit rediculous. But most specs have good synergy across their weapon sets. Not so much with Deadeye. To help offset the power lost - we can go the route they are already going and make the sneak attacks for the weapons stronger in their own way.

Dagger being Massive Single Target Damage

Rifle being the above at Ranged.

Shortbow being focused for Condi Use

Sword for Catching and Harassing

Pistol... ???

This is more useful for PvP and WvW players than Raiders, Sorry!

While you can use Sniper's Cover to protect yourself for five seconds with blinds and projectile hate. You can also use it for a real impressive fast setup into a Death's Judgement. When you drop the cloud, it appears just close enough that you do not need to move to trigger the combo. Just tap Free Action and then immediately Death's Retreat. This gives you an immediate cloak and teleports you. Why is this good to know? You can quickly catch up to fleeing targets, or you can reposition and make their AOE spam and blind swinging useless.

You can control their direction of travel by placing the field in the opposite direction you intend to go. Or placing where you want to go, and about facing.

For those who are confident in their reverse aim, you manually aim yourself by swinging the camera, and this will allow you to teleport onto high walkways.

Finally, you can stack this combo with the Dodge roll cloaking if you need more time.

Something to think about first. It's probably not worth it to crouch and then do the combo because of how long it takes. It's better if you kneel for with the intentions of putting out some damage or staying there for a while, and using the combo to gain some distance when leaving kneel.

> @"Zalavaaris.5329" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Tashigi.3159" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > Why is the rework bad just because the numbers are lower? I love Deadeye, but I'm not acting like it's the end of the world. If you really find it a problem, stay on daredevil for sometime till Anet tweaks it. It's not like PUB games even allowed thieves to take deadeyes in the first place.

> > > One of the main reasons people don't like this rework, is because it makes several combinations of traits/weapons inferior to what they were before.

> > > You also have to do far more to gain similar results to before, but the results aren't greater; they're inferior.

> > > While I personally don't mind these changes so long as 1) Substained DPS is restored across Rifle/Sword/Pistol builds and 2) Silent Scope unstealthing bug is fixed; I can see why so many people would rather have the old system back. Old system was straight forwards and simple. It had synergy and you could play it with high crit or no crit at all and still be effective across all game modes WVW/PVP/Open world (Except Fractal CM/Raids, which both require you to output maximun DPS via specific builds/gear combinations).

> >

> > Fair enough. But people also had the some worse complaints when Deadeye was released about how everything fitted together.

> >

> > I can understand why Deadeye is weaker. Anet probably did not want to risk another mesmer.

>

> We weren't even close to the top of the meters. There really isnt a risk.

Neither was mesmer

> @"Tashigi.3159" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > Why is the rework bad just because the numbers are lower? I love Deadeye, but I'm not acting like it's the end of the world. If you really find it a problem, stay on daredevil for sometime till Anet tweaks it. It's not like PUB games even allowed thieves to take deadeyes in the first place.

> One of the main reasons people don't like this rework, is because it makes several combinations of traits/weapons inferior to what they were before.

> You also have to do far more to gain similar results to before, but the results aren't greater; they're inferior.

> While I personally don't mind these changes so long as 1) Substained DPS is restored across Rifle/Sword/Pistol builds and 2) Silent Scope unstealthing bug is fixed; I can see why so many people would rather have the old system back. Old system was straight forwards and simple. It had synergy and you could play it with high crit or no crit at all and still be effective across all game modes WVW/PVP/Open world (Except Fractal CM/Raids, which both require you to output maximun DPS via specific builds/gear combinations).

Fair enough. But people also had the some worse complaints when Deadeye was released about how everything fitted together.

I can understand why Deadeye is weaker. Anet probably did not want to risk another mesmer.

My experience tells me it's easier to low-ball and buff. Than make em powerful and nerf

Did you actually play DE.. and did you even play it well?

A good Deadeye is a oppressive force, but no where near as bad as a mediocre mesmer.

You had the strongest self heal in the game. The best condi cleanse that could remove 7 conditions. The highest instaneous burst at range. Very strong access to stealth with the ability to shrug off reveal. Mobility equal to core thief till you kneel. And long range mug that could poison people.

If you make a mountain out of a handful of flaws - it's going to be a mountain. But if you work around it, it's actually very solid. I love the changes too.

> @"trashboat.2560" said:

> > @"Hoodie.1045" said:

> > > @"Zephyr.5382" said:

> > > Personally, I'm back to my P/P build and trying my best to salvage the wreckage that was the 5/8 patch.

> >

> > Or you could grow a pair and start playing s/d or d/p like a man instead of being a coward who uses p/p.

>

> Agreed, I just switched to S/D recently after playing D/P daredevil for 2 years, and I absolutely despise getting into 1v1's with PP DE's

Yeah... We can agree that was attrocious.

> @"Miatela.5047" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"Tashigi.3159" said:

> > > Every PVE Thief should have a problem with this damage reduction, even you.

> >

> > No, every Thief who cares about *raids* should have a problem with this. Which is not *nearly* enough to warrant further attention by the Dev's. Please stop.

>

> Goodness. You're here talking, I assume you play Deadeye and you should have realised by now that we are all in this mess _together_.

>

> Fixing the Silent Scope bug would not resolve the issue with Rifle in PvE either. Much of Deadeye's DPS pre-patch came from auto and being able to continuously put out some sort of damage. The mechanic of the new Silent Scope, which requires time where no damage is being dealt to unkneel, kneel and dodge, further reduces thief's damage potential. Couple that with the lack of the 21% multiplicative modifier and a replacement by a 10% modifier leading to Death's Judgment being weaker along previous developer statements on Deadeye DPS being in a good place and it is blatantly clear that this issue should be looked.

>

> You can always point to dagger/dagger now doing slightly more damage than pre-patch but that only serves to reinforce how _bad_ this rework was - those numbers are achieved by ignoring the new Malice mechanic and all synergistic traits. The rotation is also incredibly basic and insipid gameplay. If you recall, maintaining Deadeye DPS, improving gameplay, improving synergy and making Malice more involved were all intentions of this rework. The state of Deadeye in PvE shows that Anet achieved none of this.

>

Why is the rework bad just because the numbers are lower? I love Deadeye, but I'm not acting like it's the end of the world. If you really find it a problem, stay on daredevil for sometime till Anet tweaks it. It's not like PUB games even allowed thieves to take deadeyes in the first place.