Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> To put this into perspective, if you drop your portal exit on Waterfall and then run towards Graveyard at base movement speed, it takes you 15 seconds to reach mid. _That's half your time to portal back_ just spent getting somewhere else with an objective. It's worthless now. Straight up Smiter's Booned. This needs to be reversed.

>

Good luck. Its half the treatment thief got for Ambush trap. It used to allow you to port through walls and back to the trap.

Now it requires line of sight, and the line of sight barely working correctly makes it completely unusable.

To put it in perspective... This only transported the thief, and ate up a util slot. The thief could not teleport to it at will... Only if something not aligned to the thief triggered the trap. The is not a big circle, but only a line that really could only be placed in door ways.

I will eat a cactus if Anet reveresed this.

For me, its usually playing like an interceptor. Since I don't have the same mobility to keep up with an enemy thief, I didn't try to keep up. Which was my play style way before thief got shoehorned into the current role.

I focused on reading the map, predicting paths and killing the squishies in the ally ways. If theres a point along the way, Id decap iflt if I am close and theres no one elae going after it.

Periodically Id bounce around and +1, or Id use scorpion wire to drag off healthy enemies from the brawl, veat them up without worrying about killing and leave the moment my team is a man up to go take a cap.

If I am running by a fight with no intent on joining. Id swap my skills and give them a skelks venom to give them some HP back with additional damage

Thumbs up. But good luck. The balance team isn't known for explaining anything or talking with players.

My guess is they are seeing only numbers and spread sheets. They aren't treating it like a fighting game, where mistakes often happen and theoretical numbers are never hit. They aren't seeing what the community is actually doing with the professions in the current state, nor understand why certain strategies or common decisions are being made.

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > > > > > > You are talking about thief as if it ever were a strong 1v1er in conquest, no it was never meant to 1v1/hold nodes in conquest since the beginning of the game. There was one time where thief could 1v1 decently but that took way too long regardless and that was 2013 prime of SD. That's over 5 years ago. And even then it was not optimal gameplay compared to decap/+1 so I have no clue what you are on about

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Wrong. When the game first released thief was advertised to be a powerful PvP unit that was designed specifically for fighting in one on one fights. As well as their insane mobility. Which is why they have little in the way of aoes or self sustain. Their entire kit revolves around being damned good duelist or bugging out if it got out of hand. The players fought dirty and ambushed other players. Fights got significantly harder for thief than other specs in 2v1s. They were horrid at being zerg fighters, they had a rough time in PvE. And thats what they were. People complained about thief being too strong. But they never understood that thieves were walking on landmines to do what they do. They couldn't last in prolonged fights very well, they don't have the sustain to not rush the fight, they have the smallest hp pool in the game. And their defense is suck or save. You screw up once and you died. Then came the nerfs... And nerfs... And nerfs.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I stopped SPvPing all together earlier this year. I got sick of decapping and +1s and seeing that other classes do the few things Im supposed to be good at better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It feels like kitten when I have to put in far more effort and skill, to do something someone else does in a button press.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I do less for more on Core engineer. The most kitten complicated class in the game!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And every god kitten time we complain about this or dont be a team player, we're called "toxic thief" mains. We just want to be in a state that is actually fair for us and the opponent Theres so little on this class that rewards you now for wiggling your way through a kitten storm of aoe and aegis. The rewards for interrupting and punishing is nearly gone. We have limits hard set on us, and then more limits piled onto that, when its pretty much no longer justified. It just genuinely feels like you got bent without a reach around these days.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Its nice you're placing concern for the thiefs opponents, but when does this become a two way interaction in The thought process?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > At what point, is anet going to look at Thiefs thiefs historical patch notes. The nerfs, the buffs, everything. Then look at the design docs that defined what thief is... And then the current state of the game... And say "This is a clown fiesta."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No one can seriously tell me that PvP for thief is genuinely fun. That its more than a chore.

> > > > >

> > > > > Idk what game at release you were playing but there were 3-4 builds and most were glass cannon other than D/D condi. You had D/P, You had D/D backstab chain before revealed, and S/D pistol whip chaining. None of those were super god tier of 1v1.

> > > >

> > > > Those were the builds that everyone used because youtubera showed off how cheesy they were. But never got nerfed or changed till after a lot of damage in other places.

> > > >

> > > > You still had people using sword pistol. S/d was pretty popular when combined with the old cats grace. The Ambush Trap was popular in SPvP because it allowed the thief to immediately return to a point and defend in an actual ambush, now a line of sight check prevents it from working properly. The Thieves guild was actually useful because they weren't bursted in a single second. You had people using dual bows in roaming for WvW.

> > > >

> > > > Around that time, most of thieves weapon combos were viable. With D/P coming out as a top pick just because it sacrificed some aelf preservation for utility and on demand stealth. And later when people figured out you can cancle the shadow shots follow up attack to get a shadowstep and keep your cloak.

> > >

> > > Ah yea I remember thieve's guild being good.

> >

> > I might be wrong. But didn't they also have three thieves in PvP? Till the nerf? Id agree with that being way too much when combined with the shadow assassin trap.

>

> Back at release it was 3. One had two pistols, one had a sword, and one had daggers IIRC.

Yeah... So I did remember correctly. That elite felt like shit to have used against you back then. Thats probably one of the few nerfs Anet did right.

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > > > > You are talking about thief as if it ever were a strong 1v1er in conquest, no it was never meant to 1v1/hold nodes in conquest since the beginning of the game. There was one time where thief could 1v1 decently but that took way too long regardless and that was 2013 prime of SD. That's over 5 years ago. And even then it was not optimal gameplay compared to decap/+1 so I have no clue what you are on about

> > > >

> > > > Wrong. When the game first released thief was advertised to be a powerful PvP unit that was designed specifically for fighting in one on one fights. As well as their insane mobility. Which is why they have little in the way of aoes or self sustain. Their entire kit revolves around being damned good duelist or bugging out if it got out of hand. The players fought dirty and ambushed other players. Fights got significantly harder for thief than other specs in 2v1s. They were horrid at being zerg fighters, they had a rough time in PvE. And thats what they were. People complained about thief being too strong. But they never understood that thieves were walking on landmines to do what they do. They couldn't last in prolonged fights very well, they don't have the sustain to not rush the fight, they have the smallest hp pool in the game. And their defense is suck or save. You screw up once and you died. Then came the nerfs... And nerfs... And nerfs.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I stopped SPvPing all together earlier this year. I got sick of decapping and +1s and seeing that other classes do the few things Im supposed to be good at better.

> > > >

> > > > It feels like kitten when I have to put in far more effort and skill, to do something someone else does in a button press.

> > > >

> > > > I do less for more on Core engineer. The most kitten complicated class in the game!

> > > >

> > > > And every god kitten time we complain about this or dont be a team player, we're called "toxic thief" mains. We just want to be in a state that is actually fair for us and the opponent Theres so little on this class that rewards you now for wiggling your way through a kitten storm of aoe and aegis. The rewards for interrupting and punishing is nearly gone. We have limits hard set on us, and then more limits piled onto that, when its pretty much no longer justified. It just genuinely feels like you got bent without a reach around these days.

> > > >

> > > > Its nice you're placing concern for the thiefs opponents, but when does this become a two way interaction in The thought process?

> > > >

> > > > At what point, is anet going to look at Thiefs thiefs historical patch notes. The nerfs, the buffs, everything. Then look at the design docs that defined what thief is... And then the current state of the game... And say "This is a clown fiesta."

> > > >

> > > > No one can seriously tell me that PvP for thief is genuinely fun. That its more than a chore.

> > >

> > > Idk what game at release you were playing but there were 3-4 builds and most were glass cannon other than D/D condi. You had D/P, You had D/D backstab chain before revealed, and S/D pistol whip chaining. None of those were super god tier of 1v1.

> >

> > Those were the builds that everyone used because youtubera showed off how cheesy they were. But never got nerfed or changed till after a lot of damage in other places.

> >

> > You still had people using sword pistol. S/d was pretty popular when combined with the old cats grace. The Ambush Trap was popular in SPvP because it allowed the thief to immediately return to a point and defend in an actual ambush, now a line of sight check prevents it from working properly. The Thieves guild was actually useful because they weren't bursted in a single second. You had people using dual bows in roaming for WvW.

> >

> > Around that time, most of thieves weapon combos were viable. With D/P coming out as a top pick just because it sacrificed some aelf preservation for utility and on demand stealth. And later when people figured out you can cancle the shadow shots follow up attack to get a shadowstep and keep your cloak.

>

> Ah yea I remember thieve's guild being good.

I might be wrong. But didn't they also have three thieves in PvP? Till the nerf? Id agree with that being way too much when combined with the shadow assassin trap.

> @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"bluri.2653" said:

> > > You are talking about thief as if it ever were a strong 1v1er in conquest, no it was never meant to 1v1/hold nodes in conquest since the beginning of the game. There was one time where thief could 1v1 decently but that took way too long regardless and that was 2013 prime of SD. That's over 5 years ago. And even then it was not optimal gameplay compared to decap/+1 so I have no clue what you are on about

> >

> > Wrong. When the game first released thief was advertised to be a powerful PvP unit that was designed specifically for fighting in one on one fights. As well as their insane mobility. Which is why they have little in the way of aoes or self sustain. Their entire kit revolves around being damned good duelist or bugging out if it got out of hand. The players fought dirty and ambushed other players. Fights got significantly harder for thief than other specs in 2v1s. They were horrid at being zerg fighters, they had a rough time in PvE. And thats what they were. People complained about thief being too strong. But they never understood that thieves were walking on landmines to do what they do. They couldn't last in prolonged fights very well, they don't have the sustain to not rush the fight, they have the smallest hp pool in the game. And their defense is suck or save. You screw up once and you died. Then came the nerfs... And nerfs... And nerfs.

> >

> >

> > I stopped SPvPing all together earlier this year. I got sick of decapping and +1s and seeing that other classes do the few things Im supposed to be good at better.

> >

> > It feels like kitten when I have to put in far more effort and skill, to do something someone else does in a button press.

> >

> > I do less for more on Core engineer. The most kitten complicated class in the game!

> >

> > And every god kitten time we complain about this or dont be a team player, we're called "toxic thief" mains. We just want to be in a state that is actually fair for us and the opponent Theres so little on this class that rewards you now for wiggling your way through a kitten storm of aoe and aegis. The rewards for interrupting and punishing is nearly gone. We have limits hard set on us, and then more limits piled onto that, when its pretty much no longer justified. It just genuinely feels like you got bent without a reach around these days.

> >

> > Its nice you're placing concern for the thiefs opponents, but when does this become a two way interaction in The thought process?

> >

> > At what point, is anet going to look at Thiefs thiefs historical patch notes. The nerfs, the buffs, everything. Then look at the design docs that defined what thief is... And then the current state of the game... And say "This is a clown fiesta."

> >

> > No one can seriously tell me that PvP for thief is genuinely fun. That its more than a chore.

>

> Idk what game at release you were playing but there were 3-4 builds and most were glass cannon other than D/D condi. You had D/P, You had D/D backstab chain before revealed, and S/D pistol whip chaining. None of those were super god tier of 1v1.

Those were the builds that everyone used because youtubera showed off how cheesy they were. But never got nerfed or changed till after a lot of damage in other places.

You still had people using sword pistol. S/d was pretty popular when combined with the old cats grace. The Ambush Trap was popular in SPvP because it allowed the thief to immediately return to a point and defend in an actual ambush, now a line of sight check prevents it from working properly. The Thieves guild was actually useful because they weren't bursted in a single second. You had people using dual bows in roaming for WvW.

Around that time, most of thieves weapon combos were viable. With D/P coming out as a top pick just because it sacrificed some aelf preservation for utility and on demand stealth. And later when people figured out you can cancle the shadow shots follow up attack to get a shadowstep and keep your cloak.

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> You are talking about thief as if it ever were a strong 1v1er in conquest, no it was never meant to 1v1/hold nodes in conquest since the beginning of the game. There was one time where thief could 1v1 decently but that took way too long regardless and that was 2013 prime of SD. That's over 5 years ago. And even then it was not optimal gameplay compared to decap/+1 so I have no clue what you are on about

Wrong. When the game first released thief was advertised to be a powerful PvP unit that was designed specifically for fighting in one on one fights. As well as their insane mobility. Which is why they have little in the way of aoes or self sustain. Their entire kit revolves around being damned good duelist or bugging out if it got out of hand. The players fought dirty and ambushed other players. Fights got significantly harder for thief than other specs in 2v1s. They were horrid at being zerg fighters, they had a rough time in PvE. And thats what they were. People complained about thief being too strong. But they never understood that thieves were walking on landmines to do what they do. They couldn't last in prolonged fights very well, they don't have the sustain to not rush the fight, they have the smallest hp pool in the game. And their defense is suck or save. You screw up once and you died. Then came the nerfs... And nerfs... And nerfs.

I stopped SPvPing all together earlier this year. I got sick of decapping and +1s and seeing that other classes do the few things Im supposed to be good at better.

It feels like shit when I have to put in far more effort and skill, to do something someone else does in a button press.

I do less for more on Core engineer. The most fucking complicated class in the game!

And every god damn time we complain about this or dont be a team player, we're called "toxic thief" mains. We just want to be in a state that is actually fair for us and the opponent Theres so little on this class that rewards you now for wiggling your way through a shit storm of aoe and aegis. The rewards for interrupting and punishing is nearly gone. We have limits hard set on us, and then more limits piled onto that, when its pretty much no longer justified. It just genuinely feels like you got bent without a reach around these days.

Its nice you're placing concern for the thiefs opponents, but when does this become a two way interaction in The thought process?

At what point, is anet going to look at Thiefs thiefs historical patch notes. The nerfs, the buffs, everything. Then look at the design docs that defined what thief is... And then the current state of the game... And say "This is a clown fiesta."

No one can seriously tell me that PvP for thief is genuinely fun. That its more than a chore.

> @"derd.6413" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> > > > I will just coment on these two sentences since they smacked my eyes the most.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497"

> > > > > And Thief is in desperate need of tools to actually support his allies.

> > > >

> > > > Thief is not in desperaye need of tools that would help him to support allies. Thief always was, it is, and will be primary DPS class. Like everywhere else. Small health, big burst like dps. Besides it would not fit thief. Have you ever seen a burglar robbing a house with a flute?

> > > > > The second one is an arcane trickster.

> > > >

> > > > Thief has nothing to do with magic. Stop this nonsense already. Thx.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Ooooook?

> > >

> > > You realize that Deadeye uses magic.... They specifically called it shadow magic, anf if you look at thr tool tips for their utilities, they are called cantrips.

> >

> > Besides. The point of elite specs is to provide different play styles. Deadeye did that well. Daredevil not so much.

>

> why are you replying to yourself?

It was a glitch on my phone.

Ignore this. Weird glitch.

> @"Jack Redline.5379" said:

> I will just coment on these two sentences since they smacked my eyes the most.

>

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497"

> > And Thief is in desperate need of tools to actually support his allies.

>

> Thief is not in desperaye need of tools that would help him to support allies. Thief always was, it is, and will be primary DPS class. Like everywhere else. Small health, big burst like dps. Besides it would not fit thief. Have you ever seen a burglar robbing a house with a flute?

> > The second one is an arcane trickster.

>

> Thief has nothing to do with magic. Stop this nonsense already. Thx.

>

>

Ooooook?

You realize that Deadeye uses magic.... They specifically called it shadow magic, anf if you look at thr tool tips for their utilities, they are called cantrips.

There's two things I'd like to see.

The First one is probably Bard. For Pathfinder, and DnD 3.5 and below... bard has always been a rogue like class with support functionality. And Thief is in desperate need of tools to actually support his allies. So rather than replacing his steal mechanic, we take away the thief's weapon swap and give him additional utilities that are weaponized instruments in similar effect to engineer.

The thief would get a combination of songs and effects based on what he had traited for and the instrument he's holding.

While the instrument is out, the thief can do certain combos to pull out effects. Buttons 1-4 is treated as a simple attack while producing note.

You line notes up into a song. And songs into compositions.

Example... on a drum 4121 creates an AOE knock back.

11 is always a self buff.

And 2131 would be something like mass might or alacrity.

When lining up songs into a composition, the thief can use the trailing note of the previous song as the first note of the next.

So We take the previous two mentioned, and it'd look like. 21311

The new weapon the thief will get would be the hunting horn.

The second one is an arcane trickster.

It might help a bit to get a mechanical keyboard, cherry red I think is linear with a small activation press. Just a jiggle is all you need for it to register as a press.

> @"Oldgrimm.8521" said:

> Cleave damage, and the two most important modifiers are not fully utilized, namely Premeditation and Exposed Weakness

>

> in raids you almost see all boons and conditions applied on an encounter,

>

> in fractals, you can see at most 6 conditions applied, and it is hurting the Exposed Weakness modifier, since condition classes are not used in fractals more often

6 conditions is pretty good. Thats 12%.

Cleave is something daredevil has, and the thiefs insane mobility makes a number of fractals easier.

The primary reason is likely closer to the same reasons for dungeons. Thieves aren't very durable when in full glass. Trading for survivability on thief is often a heavy loss in damage. It might be a different story if there was an armor similar to marauders but instead of vitality, healing power.

And they have very little to offer the team outside of damage. And while their damage is higher... It is often better to just have more boons.

If they know the thief is good, they will take them because of their mobility will allow for mistakes to be made and corrected.

I don't want stability on dagger storm, as they still need a way to get to you.

Im fine with Infiltrator Arrow costing 5. As you have complete control over where you are going, and it is quite powerful.

Preparedness does need to be baseline, as it sucks having to take it just so you aren't stuck in the mud.

Id like a buff to the utils, or at least a rework on most of them, as a lot aren't as useful as many other classes

All of the traps suck in most cases. For the tiny area they cover, they aren't as powerful as some of the things a dragon hunter or ranger may have.

Activation for caltrops is a little too long for thr short duration they stay.

Scorpion Wire as useful as it can be, is riddled with bugs.

The passive for infiltrator signet is not worth a pitcher of urine.

The new behavior of shadow refuge is annoying when you're not trying to get aoed to hell.

As the title states, I'm a thief main, going on for over six years, and finally decided to retry engineer after so long. I will say the first 12 levels felt incredibly slow to me compared to thief. The weapons didn't feel too interesting, nor did they feel very powerful. That was till I got to level 20, unlocked all my utility slots, and have all the tool kits and most of the Turrets.

Now the class actually felt fun and as fast as thief. One of the things I really appreciated was how useful the utilities are at all times when compared to what most of the thief has to work with. Which for thief... it's often a use case specific Oh-Shit button, or something that helps you kill someone... but isn't guranteed to do you any good.

It wasn't long before I found myself forgetting about my main weapons, and just rapidly blasting through all of my hot bar tool kits and F skills. Thief has no cool downs... but Engie? You don't have idle periods... and I'm loving it as much as my main.

So... down to the meat of the topic. Do you have any tips for new comers to the Engie class?

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"foste.3098" said:

> > As it stands now daredevil builds (aka the only builds using main hand dagger in pvp/wvw as a primary weapon set)

>

> In WvW most DE builds have D/P as their secondary to Rifle.

>

This, or they take sword/dagger. But theres a higher use of dagger cuz of malicious backstab. If you know how to cancle infiltrators shot, it acts like a steal that keeps you in cover.

Sword pistol.... Forgot all about that set.

Also thank you for not using some annoying dubstep music.

Or you can gut parts of chronos current kit and spread it to other specs to force a more diverse selection. Where the activation is a tad more unique than jam a button.

And replace the removed parts of chrono that makes him decent in other content.

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > I'm pretty sure the reason why Anet hasn't implemented a killproof system is because they don't support a killproof system.

>

> Well, but they did a killproof-system... Kinda.

Im more curious about what sort of carpal tunnel infested jerk said lets use this unique consumable as KP!

There are guilds that use them to make gold trophies. Why the hell should I hold onto it to get into a group, when its just as likely to pass or fail as anyone with in substantial proof?

> @"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said:

> Tell me 1 class that cant do raids.

Dont think thats his point.

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > Eh... Where would you pit it? Deadly arts is general damage. And traps so far.

> > > >

> > > > Critical Strikes is for critical hits.

> > > >

> > > > Trickery is boons, initiative, and steal adjustment.

> > > >

> > > > Acrobatics is mostly thieves evasion and mobility.

> > > >

> > > > Shadow arts is sustainability which leeching venoms do. They're nice when you use venoms with some healing power.

> > >

> > > It could just become baseline. All venom will leech and have reduced CD. There is really no reason to have this trait taking up a trait slot.

> > >

> > > Removing this can free up a slot for a better trait like, for example, Evasive Shadow: Shadowstep now has evade frame. Evade: 1/4s.

> >

> > Then we get to an excessive power creep.

>

> Having more options doesn't necessarily mean a power creep.

It is when you get a bonus venom that heals you and others for a pretty decent amount for activating a venom on a class that has a trait that can immediately reset a random set of utilities depending on your hot bar.

What stun break? All it is, is you hit someone from the side for quickness.

I don't fight them. I just punt them off cliffs or run away.

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > Eh... Where would you pit it? Deadly arts is general damage. And traps so far.

> >

> > Critical Strikes is for critical hits.

> >

> > Trickery is boons, initiative, and steal adjustment.

> >

> > Acrobatics is mostly thieves evasion and mobility.

> >

> > Shadow arts is sustainability which leeching venoms do. They're nice when you use venoms with some healing power.

>

> It could just become baseline. All venom will leech and have reduced CD. There is really no reason to have this trait taking up a trait slot.

>

> Removing this can free up a slot for a better trait like, for example, Evasive Shadow: Shadowstep now has evade frame. Evade: 1/4s.

Then we get to an excessive power creep.

The initiative cost is excessive if you don't take trickery especially when its a worse unload, but Im more concerned the buffs to sundering shadows and invigorating precision.

Its incredibly easy for thief to get access to fury already. Especially when you run critical strikes. In PvP its unlikely you are going to run scholar, but rune of rage will certainly be an attractive and oppressive choice with thr buff to invigorating precision.

The additional 5% healing is a tad much. Id rather they leave the trait how it was and look into our weapon traits like the forum post said.