Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> I'm a big fan of when you use Steal right on the cusp of it's maximum Range, and if the game deems it was out of range it will often put it on an "interrupted" cooldown of 4 seconds just because you dared to try to use it at max range. xD

I'm a big fan of it telling you that you are too far to steal onto someone, and not working. But if you don't have a target........ it will gladly pop and move you no where.

Bringing back the collections for legendaries. BUT INSTEAD of making them a grindy mess where the collection empties a players wallet, or forces them to grind out a bunch of materials. Five them genuinely difficult challenges that they must comolete with increasing difficulty per tier.

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > @"Gatvin.6510" said:

> > >

> > > You're VASTLY overselling the state of thief. If such a class existed, it WOULD be stupid. ANYONE that has the vaguest notion of balance would agree to that. Just as a class that had infinite blocks, aoe damage and stuns would be stupid. No class has that, and no class is "always capable of chasing down another player and easily killing them while being completely invisible". There's middle ground to play in here, and its not THAT much more precarious than other classes. They just won't consider buffs that aren't single-target damage or stealth-based for some reason. I get it, you watch Extra Credits. Its a good show. I too see the similarities to some points they make. Trust me, we're nowhere near there.

> > >

> > > Daredevil is probably the cleanest thief skill tree. Its got a very versatile set of talents and utilities that make it a little more like other classes, mostly in that it gets A SINGLE block skill that combined with other thief abilities gives it a huge boost to survivability, diversity of play, and interaction. It IS more homogenous than other thief builds, but it still feels like a thief, still uses stealth, and still has high damage output. That's probably what needs to happen with more thief builds, and I think it shows that there's plenty of room to do it in. Admittedly, I feel thief rifle is so anemic right now that they might as well copy-paste the ranger or dragonhunter longbow (or even just the thief shortbow) skills onto the rifle, and tweak it until they get something sufficiently unique enough to be worth having a thief, but sufficiently standard to be balancable.

> >

> > O.K. we'll try this again. The reason why I don't care about whether thieves are currently too weak or what other classes currently have is because it is all irrelevant. Current balance is fickle and transient. Themes, mechanics, and design philosophy persist throughout the ages. The themes and mechanics of the thief when put together are **inherently unfair**, and unless Anet decides to do a **massive tonal shift**, then they will continue to remain inherently unfair.

>

> The only thief mechanic that is unfair is Initiative but that's intentional as a signature feature. Explain in detail what about thief, feature for feature is so inherently unfair that is exclusive to thief as being able to have all of those in a build and be effective. And then, explain where you want to take the thief class in your massive tonal shift.

I wouldn't bother with him. When you say that thief has many themes and mechanics that makes them unfair. The same logic can be applied in verbatim to other classes.

When people look at thief, they call it unfair because it doesn't play in the same rules - without understanding what thief is, does, or trades off.

They see the initiative system thieves have, and immediately think it's unfair because they can spam some of their strongest skills. But they also don't see the fact that other classes skills are more overloaded and synergized in comparison.

* Unrelenting Assualt (rev Sword 3) - A skill with a 12 second cool down, evade frames, hits five times pretty hard, gives 8s of might for each hit, and places you next to your target when done. The only means of avoiding is two dodges, or a stealth.

Or that thief needs to manage his skills well as his burst all-in-or-all-dead rotation usually aclimates to only 3 skills being used in quick succession before he's stuck.

They will point out the stealth mechanic is unfair. But several other classes have access to it. To the level of thief? Not really, as they always point to permastealth builds. But never sit back and actually look at what's going on in those builds. They'd realize real quickly if it fails to oneshot, they are stuck in the mud. With Deadeye being the exclusion due to its elite. They call the access to it as cheap... but never really look at how thief accesses.

A single Utility slot dedicated for stealthing. An AoE that won't allow you to leave till it's over, or you will be revealed and can not stealth. None of the thief's weapon skills provides immediate access to stealth like Torch 4 from Mesmer. They have conditions that needs to be met. Cloak and Dagger requires you to hit something. D/P requires nine out of twelve or fifteen initiative to get the first three seconds. And then an additional three for each stack. And if you know you're fighting a thief with cloaking, you should probably just suck it up and pack something to reveal em. Just saying, several kits have it. Cry me a river if it makes you change your builds, thieves have to change their stupid utilities for each fight already.

The Mobility? Mobility doesn't kill. If you let the thief kite you, its your own stupidity that got you killed. Mad because you didn't kill the thief? You'd be mad if the thief killed you anyways. The thief's frustrated he didn't get the kill. Why not just be happy with the fact that you ran em off and move on? Oh wait, because the competitive mentality is all or nothing. You want to feel glorified with a button press, but feel like you got teased if you pressed two buttons and nothing happened.

> @"Hoodie.1045" said:

> While it may seem jerk-ish to ask players if they're running meta builds or if they're wearing the right gear needed for certain builds in LFG, I don't think that's the case. You wanting dedicated and competent players who run the appropriate gear for their builds and know how each encounter goes on fractals at higher tiers like tier 3 and tier 4 is not a bad thing at all.

>

> Meta isn't the most important thing for me in fractals. I sometimes come across at least one player running a build on higher tiers like burn guardian/firebrand, condition mirage, condition thief, etc., and most, if not all boss encounters went really well thanks to those players knowing the boss mechanics on the higher tiers.

I personally don't care for people who ask for Gear and DPS check you. I don't necessarily have a problem with it - as you do you. I take issue when it's done during the raid, as a means of pointing blame rather than just sucking it up and go again.

Raids... I can accept arguments for the need of meta builds. ANET for some reason put doom timers on almost all of the raids that forces you to meet a DPS requirement. It's not very high, but it's enough for some bosses where it can cost you a few minutes of effort. And also the requirement for healers because of constantly ticking percentile damage.

You don't need it for the Tier 4 fractals, which I believe are harder than the raids. The problem that everyone misunderstands about the current PvE meta, is that it's a speed runner's meta. It's designed to get you through as quickly as possible, not as safely as possible. But because of that, sacrifices are made that prevents you from recovering when the situation turns FUBAR. You often will fail multiple times on Mai-Trin because everyone went glassy, and the only one who's not is your party's healer. And low and behold, the situation spirals out of control when he goes down. Or someone was caught out and blasted immediately.

As a thief main, I generally bounce around equipment that meets the scenario. Mai Trin, I'll take some gear that will give me a bit of survivability. So Healing power on the Trinkets and marauder's or Valks gear depending on how squishy the group I got is. My team may go down in before the boss hits a 1/4th of their HP is missing. Especially when you are forced to face tank damage from time to time, or you backed off because your health is low and and the AoEs would have taken you out, causing Mai to jump on you. But I can get them back up pretty easily, as I can survive for a very long time in the fight.

> @"TwiceDead.1963" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > Jump-cast it.

> >

> > Reliability increases tenfold if you do.

>

> Does Jump-casting improve the tracking?

Jump casting adjusts the shoddy line of sighting with projectiles the game currently has. It's a common technique when done with short-bow, as it allows the arrow to go to the maximum range (Which it doesn't quite often), and it also allows it the thief to port over certain rocks, or taller rocks if you move backwards while jumping.

Jump Casting a scorpion wire is a little riskier, as you aren't being moved any longer, and once you're up in the air you're commited (Can't cancel it). But it solves the same problem with Infiltrator's arrow. Remember, that if people get used to seeing you jump in combat and cast something, they will likely interrupt and punish you immediately the next time you do it.

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > Jump-cast it.

> > >

> > > Reliability increases tenfold if you do.

> >

> > Along with the reliability of getting killed.... The only thing that is safe to jump cast is Staff 3.

>

> Huh?

>

> It's doing the same thing as doing the old jump-cast on IStrike, which doesn't affect anything in terms of getting killed.

>

> If you're getting killed while jump-casting scorpion wire it's because you're locked into the scorpion wire animation, not because you jump-casted it.

Its because you're not allowed to take other actions in the air.

Even shadow step won't operate. So most people punish you for it.

Staff 3 is an evade. When you jump cast it, you still get your evade frames and the attack. Its good for baiting people with mobility.

Remove thiefs kit from other classes.

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > Some of Thieves Utilities and traits are dysfunctional:

> > > * Shadow Trap is a prime example. Anet clearly does not plan on fixing it despite it being brought up at least ten times a month. I am fairly certain it has not been used since the nerf and people figured out that it no longer worked properly.

> >

> > It never worked ever since the beginning and the problem lies with the implementation of shadowstep.

> >

> > What I don't understand is, what exactly is so good about Shadow Trap?

> >

> > It's a 45s CD that grants 10 stacks of might. That's not very appealing. I can stack more than 10 might in 12s using Unload twice.

> > It grants 5s of stealth, which is nice but why would you stay in stealth for 5s if your might stack only lasts for 10s?

> > Stun break? That's a very expensive stun break compare to Bandit's Defense.

> >

> > As it stands, Shadow Trap has no value.

> >

> > Shadow Trap's effect is based on GW1's Scorpion Wire. When you hex your target and they tried to run away, you automatically shadowstep to them and knock them down. That skill has value because first of all it's not a trap, second it triggered in a short distance, and finally it actually does something to the target -- it knocks them down setting them up for a combo. Not to mention, it's only 10s cooldown. So in a sense, Shadow Trap is a poor imitation of GW1's Scorpion Wire.

>

> I use shadow trap a lot in WvW at the moment, but I admit you have to run traps with trapper runes to get the most from them, which isn't a popular playstyle, and you have to be very careful where you place it if you want the long distance port. With the runes, it gives you 3s of stealth to set up your engage, while also providing a free port back out so you can save your shadowstep. You can use it to set up traps in choke points, you also use it while kiting to avoid packs of enemies on mounts pretty effectively. For 1v1, there are definitely better options, but for roaming it can still be pretty useful if you build into it.

Don't use it so anet can fix the unreliable nature it has

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Jump-cast it.

>

> Reliability increases tenfold if you do.

Along with the reliability of getting killed.... The only thing that is safe to jump cast is Staff 3.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > >

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > 14 [Dagger Storm](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dagger_Storm "Dagger Storm")

> > > > Overall I'm okay with Daggerstorm but there are two aspects I specifically hate; the fact that Improvisation recharges this and the random projectiles that shoot off of it. With Improvisation, you always end up in a fight against that one thief who is running the double steal trait alongside the recharge a skilltype trait and gets Daggerstorm recharged each steal equaling three Daggerstorms spammed back to back and you just can't handle that and die and he says "GG EZ." EVERY time. Also if the counter play is to get away from the thief as they're daggerstorming, I shouldn't have to deal with getting pelted by the random projectiles as well.

> > >

> > > I feel like this skill is perfectly in line with what an ultimate should be. Also, considering Improvisation isn't reliable it's hardly a problem. If you get caught by back-to-back dagger storms that's some bad luck on top of not managing your defensive cd's well. With all the blocks, invulns, blinks, and evades other professions have it shouldn't be hard to avoid two dagger storms.

> >

> > It's still a bit strong though. Or maybe other profession's elite skills need a bit more as compensation. I mean, Mesmer has moa, which is pretty strong but a long cast time and a long cooldown. Warrior has rampage, but they still take quite a bit of damage during it. Ele's elites are kind of a joke outside of the tornado, which engi's also get.

> >

> > I agree that it's what an elite should feel like, but I don't think the other professions have something quite that strong. Guardian invuln that recharges virtues is kind of cool I guess. Necro plague is pretty good but not great enough to run over some of the others. Lich form feels like an elite, but I personally find it kind of hard to use and the targeting system and abilities a little undertuned.

> >

> > Daggerstorm is definitely one of the better elites out there, all that damage plus an evade? And you're not rooted in place? And it's cooldown can be reduced? Thankfully thief is hard enough to play generally that it kind of evens out.

>

> I don't mind Dagger Storm on it's own that much. My problem is the randomness Improvisation introduces into the game, potentially giving such a powerful elite skill 2x uses back to back, and potentially 3x uses over the course a 20 second fight. And also now that it's an Evade it doesn't need the projectiles which you can never really count for. It's fine enough on it's own as a Point Blank Area of Effect Evade.

No... it needs the projectiles.

Because whats going to happen is that it becomes a regular spin to win move that deals insane damage without the requirement of being outnumbered. And combine it with evades and the whirl finisher, you're going to have even more people crying about thieves than there already is. Where thieves already get nerfed nearly every patch with no meaningful comp.

Remember the stolen skill Whirlaxe thief gets? That skill friggen hurts. Combined with the fact that thief will often try combining it with a whirl finisher like from a spoke field, poison, or what ever. Annnnnd GG.

At least with projectiles, it changes the elites value depending on the situation.

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Vaeo.4097" said:

> >slow down animation a bit

>

> No. If you cant dodge bulls charge as it stands right now there's a problem and it isn't with the skill. Let's not make warrior evasion worse than it already is. We already struggle to fight the more kitey classes.

>

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > Thiefs dagger storm projectiles are proximity .

>

> Didnt know this. if it only autos you if you are in range, no change to DS is necessary.

Yup. The targeting is slightly random, but it targets the closest enemy and I believe the daggers only bounce once instead of twice.

It also appears to throw more than 8. But only up to 8 actually deals damage, and the bulk of the damage comes from the bounce. So... In an out numbered fight this skill can fuck your shit up.

The whirling thief is unable to deal damage outside of those projectiles. And is still open to some AoE attacks and suffers condi damage still.

Thiefs dagger storm projectiles are proximity based. It throws up to 8 daggers. And how many daggers depends on how close you are, with the most being right on top of em. Getting away from it is quite literally the counter as the actual spin doesn't do damage

I agree with everything else. Im surprised Revenant is not on this list

> @"Nova.7261" said:

> The main issue with warriors is their inability to clear conditions quickly. A large number of unique debuffs will stay on a warrior if they are blinded or if their adrenaline skill hits a block.

>

> I don't see how removing a warriors battle standard healing helps with this?

I don't think Ive seen a warrior ever have problems with condi.

I mean... If you die faster than a thief, you're doing something wrong.

> @"Caedmon.6798" said:

> > @"GrimReaper.3865" said:

> > so this means we can stomp 5 ppl at once?

>

> Good luck with that.

>

> "Finisher Radius: 180"

>

> Im liking banner so far but i do think it needs a shave in activation time,where finishing someone off is about the same duration as throwing a banner.Not really making finishing off any faster besides the obvious part of doing it from range which is a big plus.

I don't know. A ranged finisher to me should either be the same or longer, depending on the distance.

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> How does the thief +1 playstyle differ from the rev +1?

The thief isn't much of a threat and is harder to play well than rev.

> @"Blur.3465" said:

> Daredevil D/P or Core Thief is now literally the only build that CAN be of use in normal PvP arenas. I loathe WvW so I'm not even using it for comparison.

>

> Match today:

> I start capping the point, Guardian one shots me. Yep, one shots me. This was also the case with Mesmers in previous matches - they ambush you and literally ONE SHOT you.

> Warrior bumps into me and keeps going after me for 1v1, can't kill the warrior, he cuts through me like butter.

> I keep my range while trying to pick their team off one by one, I get instantly pulled into the fray. I use Shadow Step to escape, but I get pulled back in again.

> Ranger Soulbeast finds me in mid-field while going for the cap points...kills me.

> Later I down that ranger but he downs me too and then revives with the help of pet to finish me off.

> I back away and target their mesmer on the way to the cap point : As we know Mesmer summons all those clones, gets my health to 0. I down mesmer, clones finish me, mesmer revives.

>

> I stand behind what I say because of the experiences I am having with Deadeye.

> It should be the only build that can stand toe-to-toe with others as it is focused on DPS and not the 'mobile/running build', but that's not possible if you end up in an experienced team.

> You can shine as Deadeye with an opposing team that knows 0 about how to counter you; otherwise you're in a bad, bad spot.

>

> EDIT: Less frustrating and more revarding to play Deadeye D/D with most of the stealth skills to give you perma stealth :P I regret returning to Deadeye Rifle for today's match.

All specs should be able to go toe-to-toe. Trouble is Anet and the rest of the player base don't think so.

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Loboling.5293" said:

> > In my experience, there is a rule, that a thief will almost never die unless he over commits or gets surprised by an enemy player he didn't see.

>

> It amazes me how many people still say this in 2019. It's such an overwhelmingly vague generalization that relies on Thieves *always* having their Shadowstep available for a disengage, or *always* incorporating stealth and shortbow into their build. Apparently if you use Shadowstep in battle, you've "over committed."

>

> In WvW:

> You can kill a Thief as a Soulbeast with a simple 2+4 quite often.

> Play Holosmith or Scrapper, they pretty much hard-counter Thieves due to their insanely tanky kit that allows for damage-oriented gear.

> Play Herald, their power damage far surpasses all iterations of power Thieves, though you will most likely lose to every condi Thief you encounter.

> Ele should only kill Thief if it is S/F 1HKO burst lands. It is very easily denied with Steal (SoH Traited), Headshot, Bandit's Defense, DE Range, or Durability Runes. Sword Weaver's damaging attacks are too slow for any moderately experienced Thief to be in danger.

Basically this.

Most classes can kill a in one hit thief.

A Guardian can basically OHK a full Marauders thief with that move that teleports onto people and brings down the ban hammer. Which is a common armor choice for a few reasons. One... Thieves damage is not very good lately and requires glassy builds to do something, and their survivability compared to everything else is lacking.

Revenants can basically insta gib thieves, and force them to blow all initiative and evades by trying to stay alive with just one attack.

Condi Mirage... as the thief has to play carefully.

The list goes on.

Hell... If the fight drags on for too long, thieves chances goes down significantly since launch until they can back off and regen ini and cool downs. The Ini regen is slow and cost is high that a thief will be luck to use three skills.

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > > The implementation of this mount as WvW only is horrible. This mount should be available just like any other mount, except that it's the only one that can go to the Mist.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > .............. it is able to be used in PvE.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nope, it's locked in PvE.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I just used the warclaw in pve....

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't think we're talking about the same thing here. I'm commenting about the implementation of this mount where you have to jump some hoops in WvW just so you can use the Warclaw rather than making it available in PvE without the WvW hoops jumping. As it stands, without jumping the hoops, the mount is locked in PvE.

> > > >

> > > > This is exactly how I feel about that sweet pve Legendary armor as a wvw’er

> > >

> > > You speak as if there are no WvW-exclusive Legendary armor.

> >

> > The point he's making is that the legendary armor that looks like its been given a kitten and looks genuinely legendary is locked to PvE content. Unlike the mount, where you have to jump through hoops for a few hours... The PvE legendary armor requires you to invest several months of time, plus starting cost to get meta gear, classes, what ever.

> >

> > And Raids aren't for everyone, just Like WvW. I personally think they could have done a lot better to make Raids feel more like GW2 rather than some grind fest that turns into a full time job.

> >

> > I guess the primary reason why the WvW armor doesn't look particularly interesting is the cost to make it is significantly less expensive than PvE. As by the time you get enough tickets to buy the ascended armor, you've probably accumulated enough resources to build an entire set.

>

> I guess it's a matter of taste. I don't see the PvE Legendary armor worth it. Do you honestly envy the look of the Medium PvE legendary armor over the Medium WvW Legendary armor? The PvE version might have the fancy animation but it look ugly as kitten on a Thief or Engineer. Sure the Druid might love it, but that's it. But I digress, we're going off topic.

Nope, not worth it. Once I got the hero brigadine. I loved the simple look it had. Something videos or pictures don't do justice

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> I have different experiences from the other side of the wire.

>

> I had situations where i got pulled from positions i never thought it’s possible to get pulled from.

>

> Like in a WvW Tower and you stand on the stairs of a wall.

>

> To pull me, it had to go through the wall and it worked for the thief.

>

> 3 times.

It used to yank people off of walls if they stood at the very edge. Not sure if it still does. But I've never seen it grab anyone if there was something in the way.

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > I've found a strange kinship with Obtena here, because I'm seeing him try to convince the guardian forum that they're wrong about Righteous Indignation, and seeing similar blowback from players who just don't like it. All my admiration for his tenacity aside, I do not have the strength to carry on as such.

> >

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > being weaker in a straight brawl is perfectly fine, if they have superior mobility, stealth and burst and are allowed to use them. currently they are not in WvW.

> > >

> >

> > This... is part of the idea that I am trying to convey. It is _design philosophy_ that I talking about. All of these other nitpicks, tangents, and distractions aside, I have but one question for you: **Do you understand what I am saying?** From the first post I made in this thread: do you get it?

> >

> > I do not care if you think thieves are currently too weak. That is an aside.

> > I do not care what other advantages another class may have. That is an aside.

> > I do not care if another class has one or more skills similar to the thief. That is an aside.

> > I do not care if thieves do not currently have an identity. That is an aside.

> > I do not care about the specifics of the current sPVP format. That is an aside.

> > I do not care about the specifics of the current WvW format. That is an aside.

> > I do not care how easily or hard you think it is to access these skills. That is an aside.

> > I do not care how much your feelings get hurt by losing a fight. That is utterly irrelevant.

> >

> > Do you, or do you not, agree that it is unfair design to have a class that can always chase down another player and easily kill them while being completely invisible? If you do, then you understand why thief balance is such a precarious issue. If you do not, only then do I demand an explanation.

>

> Do realize that most people still playing this game are running purely on power-fantasy, most of these people playing abusable cheese with no regard for the interactions and skill in the PvP modes; those players generally all quit with the blatant powercreep with the expansions. It's the same in every subsection. People insisting Mirage Cloak was fine, that ranger needs more buffs, and so on. Most posts are frankly total BS.

>

> Like the person complaining above how thief has only been nerfed yet neglects tons of CDR across several utilities, sword AA being buffed by 40%, Unload being buffed by almost 35%, and several skills facing initiative cost changes and other minor buffs. Did people forget that Dagger AA out-damaged everything the thief otherwise had, making casting skills pointless when trying to opt for kill pressure, thanks to nearly a 30% buff previously?

>

> When people complain about the thief being weak... it's going to be so long as cheesy, un-fun builds like SA Deadeye exist. Otherwise, the onus is on the other professions being downright braindead and uncounterable. It's supposed to be a class with a high skill ceiling, and anyone making the claim most of the OP's today, and builds like DA DE required a lot of skill to pull off are deluding themselves.

Patch Note history,

Sword:

* Jan 26, 2016 Sword Auto attack has the attack point of the skill increased by .16 seconds. I guess this means the time when it registeres hits has been pushed back. Not significant

* Mar 27 2018 Reduced Damage overall by 14%, this means the whole auto chain. No details on what per attack hit was. Judging by Dagger's auto chain it's likely massive hits for the first two blows.

Summery, Information is not correct according to actual sources.

They hurt skill 2 to prevent the thief from popping in and out too quickly. Removed the stun break on Shadow Return and gave it a delay. The skill also had infinite range for some reason, which we all agree was bullshit.

They increased the damage to 3 and made it unblockable. But the damage is only increased if the target does not have boons. Good luck.

So... that three.... Which is where the big dick damage is supposed to be.

Flanking Strike:

* Oct 2012 First Strike is Unblockable.

* April 2013 Now Evade and delivers one strike. Reduced ini cost from 4 to 3. Now toggles for 5 seconds to second skill. Improved reliability of flanking strike (one of the few rare bug fixes thieves get that benefits them.) (removed unblockable by the way)

* Aug 2013 Removed a redundant damage fact.....?

* April 2014 updated skill facts to show bonus damage from combined training (no longer exists).

* Sep 2014 Skill must now succuesfully hit target to switch to second skill. Increased in cost back to 4 again.

* Jun 2015 Dual wield skill buff stuff. No longer get benefits from movement speed.

* Aug 2017 Now unblockable again.

I don't feel like listing the history of the second skill. In short...

It got the cost adjusted from 1ini to 2 ini. Then back down to 1 again.

Two years after introduction it now steals two instead of 1 boon.

And the cost went back up to 2 ini again.

And then it got a damage bonus of 20% only if the target doesn't have any boons in 2017... which is long after the fact that most classes can generate boons like crazy. So the damage spike is rarely seen.

Long story short... Total skill cost is 6.

Unload:

* Sep 2014 Increased speed of the skill by 20.

* Jun 2015 Specialization update *ALL SKILLS CATEGORIZED AS DUAL WIELD* damage increase by 5%

* sep 2015 Increased damage increased per shot by 26%

* April 106 Skill now grants 1 might for 8 seconds for striking an enemy.

* May 2016 Skill now refunds 2 ini if ALL ATTACKS HITS

* Jul 2018 July, Initiative cost between game modes split. PvP and WvW costs 6 ini and refunds only 1 if all attacks hits. PvE cost is 5 but refunds 2 if all attacks hit.

Summary: Unload did get buffed, so you're not wrong. However, no one is using it, and I guess Guess anet doesn't understand why. The initiative cost is high, the refund only counts if all attacks deal damage (Which they never do in pvp). And in a pool of 12 (15 with Trickery) you're only casting this twice before being unable to do anything else. What made the skill dependable in PvP was Ricochet. The skill only had one self synergy and that was with black powder... which the combo all together cost 11 out of your 12 initiative. But with ricochet, you had a decent chance of the bullet bouncing off to other targets and applying combo field effects.

Initiative Mitigation, most of it you need to trait for.

1 every 10 seconds from Infiltrators signet. **IF** a thief carries it, its not for the passive.

Upper hand in Acrobatics. 1 ini for a single evade every 5 seconds.

Trickery Trait: Kleptomaniac: Stealing restores 2 ini.

Trickery Trait Preparedness: Changes ini pool from 12 to 15.

Trickery Trait Quick Pockets: restores only 3 ini for swapping weapons.

Shadow Arts Trait Shadow's Rejuvination: 1 initiative for every 3 seconds in stealth...

So... as you can see... cost is kinda important to a thief. And it usually decides what we do and what we don't use. Also the play style. And with the poor reward you get for actually fighting... you can see why thieves go for certain traits. We can only use two or three skills at most before running out. Which is why the Auto attack damage was a huge concern.

Reduce the cost of three and four.

4 is a blind with low damage. The cost has absolutely no reason to be that high.

3 is an evasive back role. Again low damage, but it breaks immobolize. Sounds powerful... But there are thieves skills that do this cheaper.

Cast time for 5 is a bit much. Remember that guardian pretty much teleports on your ass and doesn't even give you a chance to react.

Give the reflect to 2 and lower the after cast. Its nice the auto reflects. But you're never triggerring it.

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> not every spec is in a good/viable spot.

> many people do not like to fight against the old rifle deadeye, so thats a reason for it to become more of a 'fun' build. play it if you enjoy it, but dont expect optimal results.

> it will be easier to get better results on a more efficient spec, if you have a basic understanding of the games mechanics. so you may try some builds that are better in current meta if contributing is an important factor to your fun.

>

> i also did love to play old rifle deadeye. but since patch i only been playing core s/d (spvp) and scrapper (WvW), because i simply dont want to play with rifle in its current state.

> > @"Blur.3465" said:

> > It's hard to keep distance now, the evade gun skill should've at least been a bit buffed to provide us with solid escape if anything.

> wish that skill actually was an evade.

>

>

Agreed. I loved the old Deadeye more than the new one. The patient game was relatively interesting. And if the opposing player was smart, they would do something to flush the deadeye out.

On top of that, the old deadeye favored good positioning far more, so you attacked from akward angles or high up so people couldn't get to you. And it was the only thief spec that had something to offer in team fights. More meaningful than venoms you didn't spec for.

But unfortunately, after all the nerfs to thiefs damage to promote deadeye, I guess... The nerf to rifle. The improper handling of a trait nerf... Which at this point they shoulf just change the stupid thing to something else. Like bring back his support ability... The nerfs to DD unhindered combat and pulmonary impact...

I just play core S/D. Its the only thing that didn't get completely fucked... Oh wait.

> @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> Well, regardless of whether it feels like you're getting more impact out of them, the benchmarks easily put Ele and Thief clearly ahead of the pack in pure DPS under ideal conditions:

> https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

Except thief was never meant to be DPS. And I never asked for thief to be high dps. Though they did say they balanced based on popularity, which is an asinine way of doing things. As for Ele's dps, it's based on their AOEs hitting the same mob more than a few times. Which kinda makes sense... but not in a PvP scenario.

> @"Tiviana.2650" said:

> I have some nerve damage in my hand i do alright most of the time, but struggle on boss fights. My fingers dont respond very well and in melee that can get you killed fast. Im actually playing GS/s/axe soulbeast in raids atm, its not too bad but still there is a lag in time when my brain says do this and my fingers respond. Is there another class that is easier to use that maybe dont need lightning fast reflexes across the keyboard?

Warrior and Guardian tend to be pretty slow paced.

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Do you, or do you not, agree that it is unfair design to have a class that can always chase down another player and easily kill them while being completely invisible? If you do, then you understand why thief balance is such a precarious issue. If you do not, only then do I demand an explanation.

Yes, I agree that it's unfair that someone can remain permanently in stealth. No one here is saying thief should be allowed to stay invisible 24/7 And no one is saying that DE's nerfs were unwarranted (just not handled well). But people also forget that those permastealth builds takes almost the entire Utility bar of the thief. And thieve's stealth is not free, nor is it cheap (Barring DE). Which is no where near as baffling as someone who's able to fight four players at a time, eat a lot of damage, and win.

But do you not agree that it is not fair for the class who takes more risks and requires more out of the player than all other professions is not able to kill his target when he outplays, is generally more skilled, or what have you. But those he's fighting against has a burst much stronger than thieves, has access to an absurd amount of sustain without any ability to stop it.

Almost every single fight I lost in WvW as a thief was simply because of

A protection that magically reappeared just as quickly as I stripped it. And eventually I just stopped traiting for it as it wasn't worth it.

Barriers that appear as quickly as I can destroy them without completely blowing my Ini.

Things that causes me to deal zero damage or invulnerability. Which thieves kinda have in a trait... but it doesn't protect you from anything outside of direct attacks.

I wait for too long for some of their boons to go away, and dive back in. And oops... they have another protective skill off cool down.