Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

> @"Rico.6873" said:

> I see a daredevil holding a two handed weapon (staff) and to me that doesnt give a real condition vibe...

> Thematically I can see Deadeye becoming a condition spec, because he shoots bullets (bullets bleed) where he can be focused on the bleeding and poison

> Core Thief also is a strong contender thematically to be a condition overlord

>

> But seeing as thief is focused on poison which is more a counter against healing... and not a real damage condition

> (where confusion and burning condition are the more damaging ones) I see no real way for thief to really get a powerful condition damaging role...

>

> Only way for thief to get access to a strong condition role is with a new weapon/new thief class

> So while Areanet is buy changing all professions I will wait and see until their done to see how it ends...

Thieves actually were very strong at condi in the past before HoT.

Dual daggers was the weapon choice with a majority of the damage coming from how quickly bleed wrecked you. It did not need Vipers and was perfectly fine with rolling with carrion.

The poisons gave them some means of shutting down classes via soft CC and heal prevention.

Don't know anymore though

> @"derd.6413" said:

> probably won't help the issue much

It will limit the first problem of thief stacking stealth on Dagger/Pistol which is the first primary complaint and one of the main causes of perma stealth though. Daredevils can still do it through Bounding Dodger, but the trade off there is they are losing dodges to do it.

This is probably the part that should be done first before the second.

The first is to add a STRONG visual indicator for Black Powder. I never really understood why Black Powder pretty much only had a ring and a distortion effect to give away that it's being used. At a distance, a player may have a hard time picking up where this effect has been dropped down in the heat of the moment.

If you recall the Ash Legion, in Ascalon they actually have a smoke field effect that's hard to miss. While this isn't a nerf, this adds a needed tell to help the opposing player make a decision.

The second is this.

Reduce the duration of Black Powder field. Give the thief enough time to Use it once in an open field. But juuuust enough time where it's incredibly difficult for the thief to use it a second time in an open field (Not leaping into the wall).

Because of the reduced duration, **REDUCE THE INITIATIVE COST TO COMPENSATE OR SPEED UP THE CAST TIME**

> @"Phoenixtwolf.9213" said:

> I was originally thinking it does have damage, heal and bleed so to speak which is good even if it was not that much of a buff for dps and the heal

>

> now heal would be just 1k maybe in emergency th 1k heal could save you if all other heals are down

>

> So I did a test on it (that is auto attack with staff) around 4,124 and then auto attack with the swipe it was around 4,357 and that was only when I got a dps steal for extra dmg which not that much and using 1 or 2 times did not make a change when fighting the golem.

>

> So yea I would say the swipe even tho has some dps and heal is so negligible that like you said is a nerf

>

> Also considering how I used steal as a gap closer or catching up with the bosses when they did a jump (most the time in fractals I was there fighting the boss b4 anyone else.

>

> Now other then just repeating what ever one is saying: Got a question an (idea I have) that might make the range nerf OK.

> So kind of interested in seeing what all you think about this.

> 1. A long speed boost (which would make seance with the Daredevil)

> 2. Another idea some kind of cc (I can see the logic in this when in melee range using the steal to do extra cc some kind of stun knock down etc)

> 3. passably with them or if keeping it as the dps/heal it has a lot lower cool down tho not sure that would still give you any advantage seeing in that test stats i did the dps was only increased by 100 250.

I like the idea of DD having access to super speed.

> @"Sylanna.1947" said:

> When every single thief in pvp is running the same elite, it's time to do something about this ridiculous god-mode skill. And the fact that improv can instantly recharge it is just BS. I don't know how there aren't more complaints about it since it's been over-tuned for so long.. I guess there were bigger fish to fry?

Because thiefs elites barely compare to other specs kits. And the pre buff dagger storm was basically a death sentence for the user.

> @"TwiceDead.1963" said:

> > @Zlater.6789 said:

> > > @babazhook.6805 said:

> > > There have also been boosts to all manner of skills only some of which detailed below. I do not think one can conclude "anet does not like us" by just cherry picking data.

> > >

> > > As example immediately coming to mind are RFI and haste going from 60 to 35 seconds ICD and 50 to 30 seconds ICD respectively

> > > HIS boosted to remove confusion in addition to burn poison and fire with a regen extension.

> > > PR lowered to 16 seconds ICD . (it stared at 45 and was lowered in several steps) with both torment and then confusion added to the cleanses.

> > > 16 percent boon duration in Acro. Cleanse on don't stop when swiftness applied of imapring conditions. Swindlers to 10 percent boost to sword. Swindlers resetting steal on an evade rather then the old lower by a second. Swiftness added to sword 2. Range on sword 2 increased. 20 percent damage add to larcenous against boonless foes. Boosts to panic strike, potent poison, the add of Assassins fury, twin fang added to CS (2 skills sin one and much more usable) , more boons stolen with BT. Hidden killer granting 2 seconds of 100 percent crit on reveal. Duration increases of Immob on body shot. Lead attacks changed .The add of MIGHT stacks to unload followed by INI regain if all hits strike.

> > >

> > Well, actually almost all of those buffs are pretty much totally useless. What the op is talking about is not that they don't buff thief, but more that they don't give any meaningful changes to the class. The last meaningful changes to thief were the buff to the auto attacks of staff and dagger, even the twin fangs change wasn't really so desirable for dps because the only thing it did was force power thieves to use spider venom, sure its a tiny DPS increase, but honestly its mostly pointless.

>

> >

>

> You kitten what? Useless?! The buffs back in August were huge for Sword thieves! And acrobatics is a perfectly viable option over UC (more now than ever since the last patch). Makes me wonder how you play the game when you drop lines like this:

> >The last meaningful changes to thief were the buff to the auto attacks of staff and dagger

>

> No wonder you struggle with the class if all you do is rely on your auto-attack.

>

> Don't get me wrong, **_thief is in a BAD spot_**, but to say that all of the buffs are just plain useless is just being disingenuous.

Most of thiefs damage is auto attacks. We can't rotate our skill like everyone else. The skills are treated as situational. Which is what sjowed me the balance team has never played thief whrn they nerfed two weapons auto attacks.

> @"Corraidhin.3986" said:

> Really? that is interesting, specially about thieves. I figured they would remain strong in that regard. Though I suppose Deadeye may not lend itself too well to the task. I suppose I will experiment with berserker for a few days see how the changes feel, but for the most part... it just does not do it for me anymore.

Thieves haven't been strong duelist for years.

Damage across the board has been cut, forcing players into very specific sets of weapons so they can actually kill something. Other classes got a mass influx of boon generation, but thief still remains reliant on stealing buffs rather than generating their own. Other specs have quite a bit bolstering their survivability... to the point they get carried. Interrupts are still bordorline worthless (Because a lot of specs can easily shrug off the opening the thief forced) and expensive on the Thief's Ini pool. Along with bursts to you happening so fast, you can't interrupt it before you're killed.

Basically, there's a huge outcry from non thief players... and Anet listens to them more than the thieves suggestions about the class. The recent change to Daredevil is a mix of frustrating and decent changes. Frustrating because Steal's range has been massively cut and given Unblockable. Thieves asked for the daredevil's version of steal to be a completely different thing as Unblockable steal does very little or nothing for Thief's current play-style, or in duels. Outside of forcing interrupts through a channeled block I guess. And Unhindered Combatant is still Hindered Combatant with how thief's primary means of staying alive is Dodge and Endurance. So catching up to another player is suddenly more difficult. Thank you anet.

Id go with cost reduction to dust strike instead of giving a block

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Tinnel.4369" said:

> > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > It sure hurt my S/D Daredevil build, but the range nerf on Steal/Swipe doesn't really affect me with D/P Daredevil.

> > >

> > > Am I the only one that imagines the unblockable steal with sleight of hand in sword builds being really nice? That's what I'm planning on testing.

> >

> > I mean, the big question in this case is, when does the unblockable matter? If youre using Sleight of Hand, you want to be interrupting. But the only time youd be interrupting someone who is blocking is if they have Aegis. Which, as it so happens, already gets ripped by bountiful theft every time, so the unblockable is totally useless. The only time this combination would matter is against channeled block. And my question is, do you *really* want to be wasting your steal to stop a channeled block? Especially as the one weaponset that has a way to bank a nasty hit against channeled blocks.

>

> Here's where it will be useful w/SoH, interrupting the channeled defenses (at least from abilities I see commonly used in WvW)

>

> Shield Stance (Warrior Shield)

> Crystal Hibernation (Rev Shield)

> Warding Rift (Rev Staff)

> Echo of Memory (Chrono Shield)

> Illusionary Counter (Mesmer Scepter)

> Shelter (Guard Heal)

> Static Shield (Engi Shield)

>

> These skills are relied on by their casters as temporary relief or stall while more of their kit comes off of cooldown. They don't expect to get interrupted (and immediately pressured upon the interrupt) while channeling these. I expect a lot of those players to panic when this happens, especially Revs and Warriors.

Mmm... you may have the best point to defend the Unblockable Steal. I'd say basilisk venom... but well, Basilisk venom has a lengthy activation time.

Trouble is, a lot of the other classes still have a relatively easy time facing down thieves until our the balance team gets a better idea what to do with the rest of our kit.

Thief and Engineer. Thief is my main... but at the way that ANEt is strangling the profession... I may just become an engie main over the course of the years.

> @"Cobrakon.3108" said:

> > @"derd.6413" said:

> > >Stealth is Core thief's main ability

> > no

> > >DD traits are not synergistic with Stealth and considered a trade off already.

> > also no

> >

>

> You don't main thief then... at least not from the beginning. Oh you must play circus acrobat

He does. He's been on the Thief forums for a very long time. As long as I can remember actually...

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> We're currently tracking this issue and will look to fix it as soon as is allowable.

While you're here... Is it possible that we can get a comment about shadow trap's current state? Its not used as most thieves find it completely unreliable due to unpredictable behavior and interactions with terrain

...

DE already has trade offs..

Steal no longer teleports, steal no longer gains stolen skills. You lose mobility and exchange it for power. You're no longer as versatile.

I would love for this skill to finally work as expected. But expecting anet to fix anything hurting thieves is like expecting a fish to soar through the clouds

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > People kept complaining that elite specs are direct upgrades over the core specs and when ANet actually tries to even things out a bit, some people suddenly are crying that the elite specs are "direct downgrades" all of a sudden?

> > You also complain that DD and DE are different from a core thief, it's almost like that's the desired effect of picking an elite spec?! :O It seems all you want is elite spec to build over the already existing specs, which is not only stupid, it's literally a power creep and something that shouldn't be desired in a game with multiple potential builds per class. In my eyes, they're trying to move elite specs in a correct direction. Whether they 'hit or miss it' is one thing, but complaining that they're different from core specs? kitten?

>

> The problem here is that DD hasnt been a direct upgrade in a *long* time. I mean hell, the best PvP thief build currently doesnt use DD at all. The one that does is actually *already outclassed*. If they did a nerf as heavy-handed and silly as this to any of the elite specs that actually *are* direct upgrades, thatd maybe make sense. But no. They managed to pick the *one* class, where elite specializations actually *arent* a direct upgrade to nerf. It makes no sense and just is another example of Anets strange obsession with nerfing thieves at inappropriate times in stupid ways.

You got additional dodges, and extra damage, plus dodge mechanics without directly effecting how the core class behaves. Thats a direct upgrade. As powerful as others? No. But a direct upgrade regardless.

The primary reason a thief drops DD is for sword, so they can have acrobatics and CS or DA without giving up trickery. If we could affors to drop trickery (knowing anet will never fix the issue) you'd see a huge spike in power for DD

I am typically strongly against nerfing thief. But even I can see this needs some changes.

> @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > Does this compensate for all the nerfs Daredevil just received? No, it does not.

>

> What are all these nerfs do daredevil except of shorten steal range? Cuz I see only buffs. Only d/p dd will be rly hurt

Daredevil's staff has damage nerfs. Likely because of the Damage increase from the minor trait, and the trait that gives a +5% damage boost for each endurance bar. Annnd the buff that adds flat power for a staff... which is rarely ever worth taking.

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Maybe it is because my brain isn't working right now, but a lot of these changes seem random and stupid.

>

> First, I see absolutely no value in making Steal unblockable. Alone it does nothing, being wholly inconsequential. The damage from Mug is paltry, as is the poison from Deadly Arts. It cannot be used to seal the deal on a kill, or provide meaningful offense in the face of sequential invulnerability skills. The daze from trickery isn't of much value, either, because you aren't interrupting a meaningful skill with it. At most, you're interrupting a channeled invulnerability skill, which you can just wait out because the enemy isn't doing damage to you anyway. Does the effect of hidden thief actually mis-fire when blocked? I legitimately don't know. Last I checked, RNG granting aegis to a mesmer is a fringe case scenario not really worth prepping against. The main benefit to Steal is that it was a movement skill, and without that movement you might as well not have it.

>

> Over here in Revenant land, when Shiro gives us "unblockable" it persists for the next few attacks. I'll follow up Phase Traversal with Death strike and friggen wreck face. Now, if the new steal made the next few attacks unblockable, then it would be valuable. But it doesn't so the benefit of the skill is trivial at best.

>

> Second, where the hell do all of these traits go? It is hard to judge the effectiveness of any of these traits when their placement is incredibly vague. I'm guessing that the new adept tier is this:

>

> Brawler's Tenacity

> Escapist Absolution

> Marauder's Resilience

>

> The first thing I notice is that this is a damage nerf, since PVE DDs no longer get a damage boosting trait in low tier.. No more havoc + staff mastery.. So that's a 7% reduction in overall DPS as well as a DPS reduction in the staff attacks. Why? No discernible reason. Also, these traits are redundant. They all increase defense, but the only one worth anything is Escapist Absolution in PVP, because it is the only one that cleanses conditions.

>

> Marauder's Resilience is a prime example of a trait that was poorly thought out. First, the vitality bonus gained from power is negligible. At 2500 resting power, you'll get 1750 health. This is not a significant amount of health. DD is still dead in a single Rapid Fire or Deathstrike. This is less health than the now uncleansed burn is going to take from you. The -10% damage reduction at close range seems like it might be good, but it really isn't. See, these traits work well on other classes because they have a lot of sustain, a lot of barrier, and a lot of health. Thief doesn't. Being in 360 range means that you'll be under constant melee onslaught, and even with the 1750 health and 10% reduction in damage the Thief still has the lowest DPS X Effective Health product in the game. Everybody else STILL beats you just by chasing you down and auto attacking. In PVE, it won't be taken over Browler's Tenacity, because BT actually increases DPS, while still giving about 1500 extra health by reducing Channeled Vigor's cooldown.

>

> The new Havoc Mastery is stupid. It commits the same mistake that the old Staff Mastery makes, and it also now competes directly with the new staff mastery. I mean the really old staff mastery, which didn't do anything before you were low on endurance. Staff mastery will be taken in all game modes, because a consistent boost is going to be better than an inconsistent boost that contradicts conservative play.

>

> The only thing that doesn't seem to be either useless or a nerf is the change to Weakening Strikes. On the one hand, it is only half as good now, since the weakness uptime has changed from 50% to 30%, and it requires blowing a dodge instead of working immediately with no further investment whatsoever. On the other hand, it is now essentially given free to Daredevils. Does this compensate for all the nerfs Daredevil just received? No, it does not.

Just wait for the balance patch to see how it goes.

I am with you on the swipe. It hardly seems like it's worth much if it was just unblockable. When thief uses Steal, most of the time, we don't actually worry about it being blocked. We usually steal when they can't do anything else. And if we do the steal backstab combo, they will never see it coming. So if they pre-empt the attack it's a win for us. If the Swipe did something that made up for it being a short ranged Steal, then we'd have something. I wouldn't mind losing stolen skills as a daredevil if the stolen skill does something completely different. Or the daredevil has their own set of stolen skills. Skills that makes them more effective at brawling.

Things like gaining super speed - Mesmer.

Sucker Punch - Warrior.

7 Strike attack - Revenant ( a taste of their own medicen for once)

Throat Punch - Elementalist

Irritating Powder - Guardian.

etc

Eh Id be fine with the change if it did something other than being unblockable.

Sweep the Leg would be more interesting than a swipe. Where its an unblockable knock down.

Im confused about the damage reduction and sad that trickery and ini isn't being addressed yet. But I do like the changes so far.

I am really curious to see how sweep will work. And I sincerely HOPE they get rid of fatigue on the unhindered combatant after reducing the range on sweep.

The marauders looks pretty interesting too. It gives you a bit more protection as a zerks build at about 1730 additional hp. And the 10% damage reduction for nearby attackers pushes it up quite a bit too. Probably just under marauders

Trade off is ranged attacks will murder you. And you can't jump on the ranger as quickly.

Im not sure why stafgs damage is being lowered. It almost sounds like you're want thieves to ALWAYS choose the trait that gives them 5% more damage per endurance bar.

And we're still not seeing the problem with initiative and trickery being addressed

> @"bluri.2653" said:

> Signets got a change not too long ago, traps however has more or less been the same since forever. If anything they need a look at, especially shadow trap since it barely works 99% of the time in maps due to how the maps are built. It should have the same mechanic as portal but only for thief and it could be great.

This... only a handful of Thieves utilities actually get used. Which is kinda sad given that we are a class that changes our utilities based on our fights, as everything is specific to a case.

I don't think a buff would be enough on a lot of them. A complete rework might be necessary.

Our Traps have always been incredibly lack luster. I mean, look at the Dragon Hunter's traps. They are freaking amazing. So are Rangers. And here we are as a thief.

Two traps that might as well do the same things, One that doesn't function very well, and the other that is relatively worthless due to AI limitations.

I'd keep the Tripwire trap. but I'd extend the length of it a bit, and give it an AOE explosion. We're thieves. We use guns, smoke bombs, and stuff. It makes perfect sense that our Tripwire would have a friggen bomb attached to it. The effect is no longer a trip, but a radial launch. Deals heavy damage through Bleed or Power. Effects up to 5 and has a diameter equal to the length of the trap.

Replace Needle Trap with Smoke Trap.

Smoke trap is a growing AOE smoke field. Applies confusion, blindness. Projectiles entering it fails. Mobility skills fails. Deals no damage.

Fix Shadow Trap.

Assassin Trap?

Since when does ANET fix any bugs thats hurting thief?

> @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Krzysztof.5973" said:

> > > Trying to achieve highest DPS possible is now considered toxic? Noice

> >

> > No, but being told by some muppet with a dps meter that you are not the highest dps of the groups dps roles is certainly toxic.

> >

> > Nobody gives a kitten as long as the boss is dead. So that fellow can shove it up his kitten . And anyone who really feels like the world should know of their dps, even though some guide spoon fed it to them, deserves to fet tied up with barbwire and jabbed with forks by an army of octopus.

>

> Very rarely does that happen in a vacuum with no other factors. I've never seen a single instance of someone being called out for being the lowest dps in the team unless their dps was abysmally lower than everyone else including bosses that have rng mechanics that require you to leave the group. Only times I've ever seen a callout is when chronos overtake you. That's just shameful.

>

> Why shouldnt people care? Bosses can be 9 manned pretty easily. If I join a Matt run in full nomads gear as a dps it's still possible for the group to clear. I just wouldn't have contributed in any way whatsoever and should be removed from the group promptly. If you're so against reading guides for other peoples builds I'd love to see how your custom build stacks up against theirs.

Just because you've not seen this, doesn't mean it hasn't happened to someone. Im not saying its a common occurrence in GW2. As Ive seen this only a few times. But this was sure as hell common in WoW cesspit of a raiding community.

So forgive me if I am apprehensive about people with DPS meters. But Im well within my right to kick someone from a group for mentioning it out of pure anxiety and distrust, just as someone is in their right to kick a player for not being in meta for anxiety and distrust.

Critical strikes isn't much of a damage booster. Its more about improving access to crit chances for certain play styles. In a Zerg environment, its not necessary. Acrobatics on the other hand does a massive amount for increasing your survivability as a Daredevil.

It increases the effectiveness of vigor, so a single bar of dodge takes 5 seconds tk recharge instead of 10.

It provides a skill refresh and something to help stave off sword auto nerfs.

And initiate when successfully evading. 1 per 5 seconds isn't much. But better than nothing...

If you're real confident in you ini management, you can drop trickery to take acrobatics and critical strikes for the critical hit heal.

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Did you notice that not one person has asked me if I think thief is currently overpowered or underpowered? **Not one.** No, that would be too inconvenient. Instead, they're telling me what I think, then arguing against that. They do not want to have conversation about balance. All of these exchanges go like this:

And no body asked anyone else if they thought it was OPed. So you're being given as much respect to the discussion as everyone else.

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Personally I liked how City of Heroes did stealth. There were two different stats in play: perception, and invisibility. The perception stat changes what distance you can see enemies at, and the invisibility stat is a static subtraction from perception. If invisibility + distance > perception, then the player is invisible. But, if perception was larger, than you can see the enemy. Once seen, there was only a single skill that would re-engage invisibility. This made stealth mechanics non-binary. There were temp buffs, equipment slots, and skills you could use to increase perception, and you could increase stealth by layering more and more stealth skills (with greater movement and endurance penalties for each). This rarely showed its head in PVE, but in PVP the mechanic was fundamental.

The deal with City of Heroes is it's a completely different game, with completely different mechanics, and it's own set of rules for the super natural. The stealth mechanic works for that game, though I personally hated it, but it doesn't mean it will work for other games.

Pointing to how another game handles a certain mechanic, is not the same as offering a solution to a vastly different game.

League of Legends has stealth. And it's far more toxic than what is present in GW2. The Junglers who features insane damage, and mobility, on top of stealth have a circle which offers a tell that someone invisible is near them. Does it work? For that game sure. In GW2 it won't fix the problem.

Dota 2 has stealth. A few characters like Rikimaru could only be detected by two items. Glitterdust when they are visible, and a stone you dropped when you get killed. Still won't fix anything.

WoW has stealth. Everyone talks about how the rogue couldn't access stealth as frequently. But no body talks about how balance is a complete joke in that game. And guess what? People still complained about the rogue one shotting mages, and two shotting priests in pvp.