Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

Id rather avoid turning thief into a weeb. Than you.

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > I do. It would work well for thief if anyone has played bard in dnd.

> >

> > Especially with thiefs initiative system. The steal ability can be replaced with perform, thats based on your attack combo. Similar to hunting horn in monster hunter. Trade off stealth, to gain a strong bonus for the same duration, but keep sneak attacks. Itd make a high skill support. But knowing Anet, not a very powerful one.

> >

> > And this would really only work well if anet fixes thiefs initiative problem

>

> Depends on the version of D&D you're looking at.

>

> 2nd edition D&D could do some of the out-of-combat thief stuff like picking locks, but in combat it behaved more like a fighter-mage than a thief: putting it more in mesmer's camp.

>

> 3rd edition D&D pushed them more into a buffing fighter-mage role. They have some hiding ability but, well, so does mesmer.

>

> 4th edition explicitly make bard arcane support ("leader" in 4E nomenclature, but it means support), while rogue was a martial DPS class.

>

> 5th edition I'm less familiar with, but on a casual observation, it seems to fit the trend. Bards and rogues have similar proficiencies, and from what I can see, rogues and bards still seem to behave very differently in combat. An Arcane Trickster rogue dabbles in illusion and enchantment, but that would be represented more by a thief moving more into mesmer territory than bard.

>

> Furthermore, as referenced previously, the precedent in Guild Wars is for performers to be mesmers (when they're given a profession at all). The bard archetype - moderate fighting ability, spell loadout mostly focused on illusion, enchantment, and support effects, and a bit of sneakiness - would be far more suited to a support mesmer than to anything thief.

Depends on your play style. Bard is incredibly versatile.

Also let a man dream. Mesmers get to stomp all over our territory! Why not give us this one!

Mean while... Tortured thief mains are whimpering in the corner at this revelation

I do. It would work well for thief if anyone has played bard in dnd.

Especially with thiefs initiative system. The steal ability can be replaced with perform, thats based on your attack combo. Similar to hunting horn in monster hunter. Trade off stealth, to gain a strong bonus for the same duration, but keep sneak attacks. Itd make a high skill support. But knowing Anet, not a very powerful one.

And this would really only work well if anet fixes thiefs initiative problem

Could be worse... you could be like Thief, where a New PvP ruleset completely DISABLES a major fuckin part of your class.

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> No, I like them, they make taking an elite and gaining the power it brings to be a risk instead of free candy.

>

> The barrier is just a little weak and needs to be affected by outgoing condi.

Guardians can manage being tanky with low vitality. Scrapper can as well.

But the 600 range nerf on a class that CANT compete in brawling? And if he can compete ok. Lets talk about how DD is SUPPOSED to be mobile and get in your face.

> @"Zacchary.6183" said:

> What if I want to cosplay as a dervish? :open_mouth:

Be a bard

To be fair... A scythe is a useless weapon. The one you see edgelords carry won't be effective at lopping someone's head off and is more like a big unwieldy kama.

When farmers turn it into a weapon, they change the angle of the blade so its more like a glaive. Even then, they sharpen the backside.

As it is... You are better off breaking the blade off and using the stave

Yeeah. Thief gets a lot of verbal abuse. largely from people who have never played. You will be called toxic for standing up for yourself. And selfish for deciding not to do something others thought would let them win. Ive even been called a troll for taking out a player who was low and full capping, despite having map knowledge to know Im not needed anywhere else. Because I 1v1ed and full capped instead of running to go decap or plus 1.

I will say, after a while you will get fed up of playing thief outside of deadeyes rifle. You will learn quickly enough that you are out matched by almost everything. And to take someone out is an absolute chore or stressful in 1v1

No. It gives you more function. But no new builds. It's also incredibly limited for some reason in PvP. I couldn't see a build working exclusively with Shadow Portal.

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > Allowing only two to use it max would severely limit the use unnecessarily. Especially in PvP where thiefs role is already lack luster.

>

> Unless what I've read is inaccurate (I haven't had the opportunity to test it out fully), the portal only allows one person to use it in PvP... that if a Thief's ally uses the portal before the Thief, then the Thief is out of luck if he meant to use it for himself. Is this true? I'm speaking specifically for PvP here (leave it at 5 for PvE/WvW), but 2 is better than 1, I would think. It would allow a bit more use for the Thief without making the Mesmer's portal obsolete. Currently, if only one person can use it, it's basically just a heavily nerfed Shadow Trap without the pathfinding issues.

>

> **EDIT:** The description of Shadow Portal is not exactly clear. The description mentions the portal is for "you and your allies," though that was clearly written for WvW and PvE instead of PvP. For PvP, it lists it as affecting "Number of Allied Targets: 1"... so does that include the Thief or not?

>

> > Also, theres a few reasons I can think of on why this skill should not instantly teleport thief. First, its approaching Shadow steps territory. Only in this case the portal is significantly better as an escape. The second is a thief may not desire to follow the portal through. The theif can run over somewhere. Get something going like a decap. And return to his team to give them a teleport onto point while he goes elsewhere.

>

> Yes, the current functionality does have some more tactical uses. Though as an escape tool, an instant teleport (after having prepared the escape point beforehand ala Shadow Trap) would be a QoL improvement over having to both activate and enter the portal (two actions) in order to teleport... especially if on the move. It wouldn't be that much of a QoL improvement, but it would feel less clunky... just as the change to Deadeye's Silent Scope was when you no longer had to kneel to cancel the ICD between dodge rolls.

>

> > For 2. A recharging stun on cloak already sounds toxic as all hell to fight. Basilisk Venom is pretty weak for what it is. But having access to the ability to outright stun someone repeatedly on a class known for stacking stealth?

>

> Indeed, it's the age-old Stealth debate again. Maybe I'm missing the old "opening burst out of Stealth with Basilisk Venom" to keep opponents on their toes. I know it kept me on mine as a glass Thief, always with a finger on a stun-break for when other Thieves jumped me... making me a better player.

>

> I'll just have to use the old defenses of Stealth. Revealed lasts 3-4 seconds at least. Stealth costs resources to enter. The stun/immobilize venom gained from the trait would be capped at one, making Stealth stacking irrelevant in this case.

>

> Sword/X and Pistol/X Thieves can already spam Immobilize. X/Pistol Thieves can already spam Daze. This would just add another source of stun/immobilize to fill in the gaps for other weapon sets... especially setting up Stealth bursts as they used to be.

>

> I think the it really depends on the type of venom gained. I like the idea of Lesser variants, though, whether it's Basilisk Venom or Devourer Venom. Making them both blockable and short duration (between 1/2 and 3/4 of a second) seems fitting. Although they are "rechargeable" through Stealth, the Thief still has to sit there in Stealth for 3 seconds before each use. And if used as a Stealth burst (harder to avoid than non-Stealth), the Thief still has to wait another 3-4 seconds before entering Stealth to begin the 3-second wait again.

>

> At the very least, it would help make up for the 1-second ICD of Stealth Attacks, but I digress :-P

Ah. Ok. I didn't know about that problem in PvP. I wonder why they limited it so severely. They talk about consistency, but that kills the goat.

And my deal with the Lesser Basilisk Venom is less about the stealth. It's how frequently the thief would be able to Lesser Basilisk. Which... yeah the CC in other classes is significantly stronger... I really don't want to give ANET a reason to nerf thief... when they finally gave us a hug after years of beating us into the dirt at every patch.

The Core problem of Basilisk Venom was... it's just an all around shitty elite that doesn't flip a situation on its head, but its our only reliable way to break through guards. It was a 45s CD with a Cast time that felt like it took forever. And the only other good thing outside of it making a single attack unblockable, is the venom aura which made thief one of the stronger CC Bar Breakers in raids. And I have a bias, as I don't give a rats behind about raids.

Being able to get a stun every three seconds your in stealth is a bit unfair. It doesn't matter if you get revealed for three seconds. It'd just be every six seconds, and then suddenly Shadow Arts would have the SAME problem Trickery suffers. Where your hurting yourself if you don't have it. And suddenly all future ANET nerfs revolves around the idea that thief always has it, and never actually solve the problem thats causing thieves to always take it. And this recent patch is not enough for me to reverse my opinion about the balance team's insight into problems after years of patches that gave thief mains apoplexy. I know this is a Slippery Slope, but I don't believe I'm wrong about this. That's not saying I don't have hope for the future of thieves... but that hope is a small drop of oil in a sea of skepticism.

It'd be a different story if the Basilisk Venom had an internal cool down of around 15 or 20s or 30s in your recommendation. And the elite being replaced with something much better.

Imma say no to 1 and 2.

For the portal, the current functionality gives it a lot of utility and uses. Allowing only two to use it max would severely limit the use unnecessarily. Especially in PvP where thiefs role is already lack luster. Also, theres a few reasons I can think of on why this skill should not instantly teleport thief. First, its approaching Shadow steps territory. Only in this case the portal is significantly better as an escape. The second is a thief may not desire to follow the portal through. The theif can run over somewhere. Get something going like a decap. And return to his team to give them a teleport onto point while he goes elsewhere.

For 2. A recharging stun on cloak already sounds toxic as all hell to fight. Basilisk Venom is pretty weak for what it is. But having access to the ability to outright stun someone repeatedly on a class known for stacking stealth?

Smoke screen and whirl axe = ruin a warriors week

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> Functions like shadowstep so requires pathing unlike Mesmer portal and it only has a 5 player limit unlike Mesmer portal so yeah it's a cool new skill but definitely not a replacement for Mes Portal :)

It doesn't suffer the line of sight issue that plagued Shadow trap though. You can teleport through walls. It also doesn't have the pathing limitation

But I do like that theif's portal has a few clear advantages over mes and necro. For one, the thief can have it up very quickly. Which makes it a very convient escape utility if you get into a fight and need to GTFO.

The second is that until the second part is activated, the portal is undetectable.

So far... one of my favorite uses in PvP for it is... to get into a fight to tip the tides and quickly leave to go across the map.

Or... when I am leaving a point that I've decapped, I can actually feel a little more useful as a team mate by dropping a portal near a team mate who's going in that direction to rush them to get it capped or to go fight a dude together.

I do wish they put a radial circle on these portals in the minimap though. It's kinda hard to tell how far 5000 units is.

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> What are the benfits of activating it at will though? What are the scenario's for example. It doesn't feel like a benefit if it's an extra button to press, but I need to understand it a little more.

Returning thiefs abilities to pick their fights.

Traps have a problem with triggering on the first person. Preparations gives the thief the ability to single out targets, or to hold and det for a much larger effect.

> @"Nomad.4301" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"LadyKitty.6120" said:

> > > Kitty now got to testing the new Shadow Arts and it looks...nice. The Dark Saviour-trait actually provides the teef with huge amount of outgoing heals if you decide to spam Infiltrator's Strike and Return. And if you combine that spam with Deadeye's Fire For Effect and Trickery's boons...nyahahahaha...

> > > 

> > >

> >

> > Hey kitty, do you know if that outgoing heal applies to ALL shadow steps? It seems like people are only looking at it in combo with shortbow. And not taking into account that a massive chunk of the thiefs kit has some form of shadowstep.

> >

> > Infiltrators arrow. Shadow Shot. The S/D. Infiltrators signet. Shadow portal. Shadow step. Steal. Deaths Retreat. The shadowstep from downed state.

> >

> > If there was a good way to mix power and healing for thief, I can see it being used for WVW, as thieves do a lot of shadow stepping in combat. It would certainly offset the low HP Pool and may save DD if ANET does something about initiative cost and trickery

>

> Yes it does work for ALL shadowsteps, but it's still not usable without investing heavily into healing gear/sigils/runes/food etc... If you try to use it in combat for personal sustain without healing power you're going to be healed for a whopping 300 per shadowstep, at which point you might as well take Invigorating Precision in CS as that gives more damage then SA and more sustain.

>

> Edit* Actually even WITH around 1300 Healing Power the self-heal is still only around 500 which is NOT worth the stat investment IMO.

Thats still worth something. Remember, as a thief in duels, you -do- shadow step quite a bit. Its not a regen from other classes. But it can support the dip in and out nature of the class and help them shrug off a blow. Or a third/fourth of one.

I think the scaling for healing power is a bit poor. But without it, its quite decent.

And its infinitely better than the master trait that grants healing based on ini spent.

Id imagine if a thief is decent enough to be hard to hit, that might extend their milage quite a bit. Especially when combined with healing roll and the trait that cloakd when a heal skill is used. Or hide in shadows for the stealth stack.

> @"LadyKitty.6120" said:

> Kitty now got to testing the new Shadow Arts and it looks...nice. The Dark Saviour-trait actually provides the teef with huge amount of outgoing heals if you decide to spam Infiltrator's Strike and Return. And if you combine that spam with Deadeye's Fire For Effect and Trickery's boons...nyahahahaha...

> 

>

Hey kitty, do you know if that outgoing heal applies to ALL shadow steps? It seems like people are only looking at it in combo with shortbow. And not taking into account that a massive chunk of the thiefs kit has some form of shadowstep.

Infiltrators arrow. Shadow Shot. The S/D. Infiltrators signet. Shadow portal. Shadow step. Steal. Deaths Retreat. The shadowstep from downed state.

If there was a good way to mix power and healing for thief, I can see it being used for WVW, as thieves do a lot of shadow stepping in combat. It would certainly offset the low HP Pool and may save DD if ANET does something about initiative cost and trickery

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> The Shadow Portal is the biggest change here. Its certainly not as good as Mesmer Portal, but it does give Thief extra mobility. I expect it to be used quite a fair bit. Non-mainhand dagger condi thief also got a buff, perhaps P/D might be a fine roamer in WvW now. However, beyond that, most of these changes dont really do much. Traits that work on stealth attacks have the big issue that outside of Rifle (for whom none of these traits matter because if your DJ hits, the enemy is dead) noone ever uses Stealth Attacks. After that update where they get 1 second cd whenever they miss, theyre just not worth it.

Uh... I use them. Granted, many outside dagger aren't useful.

It does look like the intent was to open up weapon options.

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Crystal Black.8190" said:

> > Swipe is just underwhelming. Any of the thief weapon shadow steps have 900 range. So swipe is worse than the weapon skills range and staff doesn't have a shadoestep to quickly reach a target. It doesn't even have a block or missile protection to protect yourself while walking to a target instead.

>

> 1. Changed swipe isn't supposed to be a mobility skill for the most part, dd is pretty mobile already. When they said they made that change with DD being more of a melee brawler (iirc?) spec in mind, it sounded a bit backwards because how would -pretty much- removing additional gap closer make the spec more melee oriented? Well, stay in range, that's what brawlers do. Swipe is still useful to proc your steal traits. People say they'd like it changed altogether -actually me too. But what exactly would you want it change to? A weak smack over the head? It would still be used mostly for trait proccing, now you just have 600 range buffor.

> 2. Staff or not, weapon swap exists and as you said, the weapons already offer high mobility

> 3. Yes, it doesn't have a block or missile protection, but you kitten with evades left and right, so who cares.

> 4. If you're planning to "walk up to the target", then I'm not sure what to tell you. Maybe that you still don't need to walk.

>

> Overally I wasn't a fan of that change too, why would I be. But I don't think it's as hard to adapt to as some of the people try to make it. Also opening with steal, while situational, is mostly suboptimal anyways imo.

>

>

> (btw, I'm not trying to argue for the usefulness of the signet change, it's still garbo and imo not worth the slot :p )

Problem here is that thief doesn't have anything in their class that lets them stay in a fight for too long. A Daredevil will get murdered if it stays in a fight for too long. Alm other classes can out heal you, out cc you, capable of using all of their skills with impunity. And have a much more functional kit overall.

I don't want to be that guy. But Ive noticed you mentioned you were listening to feed back for warriors. What about thiefs endless stream of complaints and feed back?

Swipe is a senseless trade off for DD.

Trickery has way too much power making it too necessary, and at the dame time the low efficiency of thiefs initiative is appalling.

Im holding my to gue about shadow traps replacement, because I got a feeling its going to follow the dame rules that made the trap worthless and unreliable.

Its Anet. When it comes to thief balancing, anything that hinders the class performance is fine in their book

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"TheBravery.9615" said:

> > 

> > Body is 10 characters too short.

>

> You know that Anet has 250 to 300 employees right? And you know that most of these employees work on just one area and have fixed schedules, right? Like, you know, a company...

If nerf elementalist looks like that, then thief probably is completely painted with darts and then some

Nerf core thief steal to 300 to make swipe more appealing

It has a stun break?