Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

> @"Sampson.2403" said:

> Im pretty decent with condi mirage, power mirage and revenant in sPvP. I've been able to stay in plat 1 - 2 with these specs.

>

> Id like to learn to play thief next. I have a general idea of how to play it but im making this thread to see if anyones got some advice to give me knowing that i am coming from playing as mirage and rev.

If you're looking for something that's able to 1v1 or 1vx as easily as Mirage, just run. As the class is no longer worth to get good for that.

Otherwise... probably the first advice I can give is to get good with shortbow. Not just in mobility. But also for fighting. It provides a lot of utility that helps thieves deal with some of the bullshit happening in the meta.

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Lonewolf Kai.3682" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > The implementation of this mount as WvW only is horrible. This mount should be available just like any other mount, except that it's the only one that can go to the Mist.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > .............. it is able to be used in PvE.

> > > > >

> > > > > Nope, it's locked in PvE.

> > > >

> > > > I just used the warclaw in pve....

> > >

> > > I don't think we're talking about the same thing here. I'm commenting about the implementation of this mount where you have to jump some hoops in WvW just so you can use the Warclaw rather than making it available in PvE without the WvW hoops jumping. As it stands, without jumping the hoops, the mount is locked in PvE.

> >

> > This is exactly how I feel about that sweet pve Legendary armor as a wvw’er

>

> You speak as if there are no WvW-exclusive Legendary armor.

The point he's making is that the legendary armor that looks like its been given a damn and looks genuinely legendary is locked to PvE content. Unlike the mount, where you have to jump through hoops for a few hours... The PvE legendary armor requires you to invest several months of time, plus starting cost to get meta gear, classes, what ever.

And Raids aren't for everyone, just Like WvW. I personally think they could have done a lot better to make Raids feel more like GW2 rather than some grind fest that turns into a full time job.

I guess the primary reason why the WvW armor doesn't look particularly interesting is the cost to make it is significantly less expensive than PvE. As by the time you get enough tickets to buy the ascended armor, you've probably accumulated enough resources to build an entire set.

The biggest thing though is Carrion works best on Core thief, as it frees up a slot to take Deadly Arts or Shadow Arts, and Critical Strikes to make up for precision... as Trickery is pretty much taking up one of your slots.

It worked pretty well back in the day. The biggest thing though is you have to stay pretty aggressive as you don't have anything increasing the time for the Condi damage.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Decrease dps on skills like backstab especially malicious backstabs

> Increase damage of all skills 10% some maybe 15% except for vault as it does enough

> Make preparedness baseline and if traited 18 initiative

> Revert lead attacks and black powder skills

> Change improvisation so elites arnt part of rng,only utility skills are

> Shave a second of evade time off daggerstorm

> Thief would atleast be a threat in a 1v1 without having to stealth backstab

Just remove the trait after making it baseline. Having it where it increases the ini pool to 18 will not fix the problem.

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Seriously, think about this for a moment. For the sake of argument, lets say that the thief now magically has access to all the sustain, evades, barriers, blocks, boons, and DPS skills that the weaver gets, but also doesn't lose any mobility, stealth, or burst damage. What becomes of the weaver then? How will they get played, when there's another class that will always hunt them down and kill them with no warning, no realistic chance of winning, and no hope of escape? It seems ridiculous, but for many years that is exactly the problem we had. For the longest time, the underdog class wasn't the thief. It was the mesmer. Why? Because in PVP the thief could do basically everything the mesmer could, except harder, faster, and safer. I still remember the video where Helseth, a famous PVP mesmer main, decided to switch to thief because it was just a better mesmer, and mesmers just got ganked by thieves. What I am saying here isn't speculation: it's history.

>

> To have a fair game, you _need to have a chance to fight back._ It would be stupid to design a game otherwise. Despite your insistence Crowd Control is not unfair. You can still see it coming. You can still counter-interrupt them. You can still dodge them. You can still use positioning to avoid it. You can still block it. Every class has a plethora of stun breaks at their beck and call. You can't do that with a thief. Positioning doesn't matter because thieves teleport around. You can't interrupt, dodge, or block them because you can't see them coming and thus won't know when to do it. Reveal skills are rare and they're trash.

I don't want thief to have access to the same crap other classes have. If thief had all the sustain, boons, blocks, dps, what ever the other classes get, it would not be the same class. It'd be another standard with no unique identity. The whole DPS train thing was just a result of the Raids, which I still firmly believe do not feel like Guild Wars. It was just something designed to be incredibly accessible, and they shoe horned the requirement of a paradigm which they sought to destroy.

And no thief says that another player should not be able to fight back. The major complaint is that there is absolutely no reward to playing thief anymore. You genuinely don't feel like you are getting anything out of it. When everyone else can do everything you do better.

It feels like complete crap that you've outplayed your opponent multiple times in a single fight, but it often results in nothing.

You die inside every time you play spvp, when you're universally hated with nothing to back the hate up. And worse of it all is being forced to go far because you're not valuable anywhere else. And other classes -can still do this-.

And lord knows it's even more infuriating when the developers keep creating a loop where they have to see just how far they can bring this class into the dirt before the player count just drops to zero.

> @"DonArkanio.6419" said:

> > @"Quarktastic.1027" said:

> > So, why didn't they just give renegade a greatsword?

>

> This is actually a joke. Renegade's legend should be Pyre Fierceshot - he wielded Shortbow and it would make sense.

> But they decided to do a random Charr character who happens to be a girl fighting for girls' rights. So yup. It's like SW TLJ.

>

> If we got Kalla, we should get GS, if they went with Pyre, then it should be Shortbow, I don't see ant other way.

Except Kalla is well known in charr lore and makes sense as a legend. Though I do agree, making Renegade use a great sword would be better. Though I guess its also cuz they settled on condi

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> I can explain it. To borrow from Extra Credits: It is important that a mechanic be fun for both the person doing it, and the person receiving it.

>

> This is the ultimate issue with thief: It's not fun to be attacked by a thief. Being pistol-stunned to death isn't fun. Being bled dry by a Ghost Thief isn't fun. Being one-shot by a Backstab or a Death's Judgement from stealth isn't fun. It isn't fun to be harassed endlessly by an enemy that can always disengage and run away. This forces Anet into a big dilemma. They've essentially made a profession who's theme is unfun for every other profession to play against. Having stealth, high burst damage, and high mobility puts thieves in a precarious position, where the game can easily be ruined by letting thieves become powerful.

>

> Take the mobility for example. Being the most mobile class in the game means that the thief must be one of the weakest in a direct engagement. If they aren't, and there's another class that loses to the thief in a straight up brawl, then that other class can't be played, for it will forever be slow moving prey for the thief. Likewise, the burst can't be too high, because otherwise the class that can't take the burst could never be played, for it will forever be slow moving prey for the thief. Etc. and so on.

>

> This is why thieves always get nerfs for PVP and WvW. Having thief be too weak means that thief players will be angry. But, having thief be too strong means that all of the other professions will be angry, due to all of the traits that the thief has.

Its not fun to be weak for absolutely no reason. Thief traded his defenses for a high risk high reward.gameplay there were very simple fixes that thry could have done to prevent this without harming thief to such an extreme level. But they decided to do a dental cleaning with a jackhammer every time.

Being one shotted by a guardian who has a relatively high defensive build is not fun.

Hitting a Weaver multiple times but your damage got you no where compared to what he does to you because he regens shields like crazy is not fun and exciting gameplay.

Having to fight a condi Mirage and use a rediculous amount of mechanical skill in comparison to what the mirage outputs is not fun gameplay

This crap goes both ways.

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > The implementation of this mount as WvW only is horrible. This mount should be available just like any other mount, except that it's the only one that can go to the Mist.

> > > >

> > > > .............. it is able to be used in PvE.

> > >

> > > Nope, it's locked in PvE.

> >

> > I just used the warclaw in pve....

>

> I don't think we're talking about the same thing here. I'm commenting about the implementation of this mount where you have to jump some hoops in WvW just so you can use the Warclaw rather than making it available in PvE without the WvW hoops jumping. As it stands, without jumping the hoops, the mount is locked in PvE.

Oh got you. And no... I don't think it's necessary.

They could just make it exclusive to WvW. Fact of the matter is they are trying to get more to play it.

> @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > > > @"Graymalkyn.8076" said:

> > > > A strong commander can take what he's given and make it work. A weak commander will rely on meta builds only. If, as a commander, you rely on a meta build only group, then you should probably work on your leadership skills.

> > >

> > > Make what work, specifically? Taking down a meta group with a non-meta group? Or avoiding fights and capping stuff without resistance? There ARE limits to what a commander can do with what he's given and a smart commander knows this. I think you are just talking from pride, not from anything practical.

> >

> > A non-meta group can kill a meta group. The trick is simply hoe you approach the fight. And thats the limits of a lot of commanders. They really don't take advantage of how dynamic The game mode is.

> >

> > Are you using high ground? Bottle necks? Do you have artillery support? Did you snipe the enemy commander? Did you force the enemy zerg to spread out so they can't take advantage of stacking? Did you force them to trickle in?

> >

> > Instead of treating it like an actual war. The commanders try to reinact Lord of the rings where there is a nonsensical cluster truck of melee with no arrows, or cannons... Or catapults. Which were used in actual open field combat.

>

> And yet I didn't say a non-meta group cannot kill a meta group. Yes, the trick is simply how you approach a fight and there ARE limits to that. Some fights you cannot take at all with what has been "given" and you have to do something else that you may not enjoy.

>

> Moreover, the idea that another player should spend their playtime slogging through what's been "given" in order to pull something out of their hat to "make it work" is why a lot of commanders have quit or simply don't deal with that by only having meta classes in squad. You're asking them to do a lot of individual work to accomplish something that should be team work. I honestly know of no experienced "strong commander" these days that doesn't have a squad of meta builds. And of all the non-meta groups that I've seen kill meta groups, they're composed of players who understand meta enough to counter it and are strong individual players who don't rely upon commanders, not some unorganized group of pugs following a tag.

>

Er... I'm not sure how Individual Work is not correlated to team work.

I mean, in a team, you got a job. And you often got to do that job alone, to benefit your team. Sooooo.....

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > > > Ganking.

> > > >

> > > > You're talking about ganking.

> > > >

> > > > Roamers/Havoc actually help take and defend objectives.

> > >

> > > You must be one of those that want PvP fully removed from the game mode.

> > >

> > > Anyone that hits you is a dirty ganker! I spent hours looking up the perfect zerg build and its ruined!!!

> >

> > That's a strawman.

> >

> > A ganker focuses exclusively on killing players.

> >

> > A Roamer will kill players as they find them. But they actually do more than sit in one location and set up ambushes. They capture camps, join other zergs to help them take objectives. Run supplies. And inform their team about incoming forces.

>

> Sounds like a ganker is a roamer that stopped giving a kitten about score lol. Guess I'm a 'ganker'.

>

> The only time I remotely care about capping a camp is when enemies want it too. Or when dailies are up.

Or a Ganker that stopped caring about pips I guess. I'm a thief... so it's not like I got room to talk here.

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Edward H Angle.1407" said:

> > Ranger is actually by far more useful than either scourge or Herald. It just requires you to be a skilled players and fully master the class. Herald and scourges are mainly for new players that are still learning the game and only know how to press 1 or 2 buttons for easy mode.

>

> Y'know I just linked a .GIF for a bovine excrement meter on another thread, because the post I was quoting was one of the most BS things I've ever read....until I read this post anyways. Probably get banned if I linked it twice, but yeah, this post is completely 100% pure wrong, regardless if we are talking about zerging over roaming.

>

> Rangers have a high skill cap, no doubt, but to say it takes more skill to play one effectively compared to a Scourge or Herald is pure trolling. You can tell a Boonbeast player from just meeting them in person - they have the numbers 7,8,9,0 impressed on the right side of their face.

This got me laughing harder than it should have.

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> > Ganking.

> >

> > You're talking about ganking.

> >

> > Roamers/Havoc actually help take and defend objectives.

>

> You must be one of those that want PvP fully removed from the game mode.

>

> Anyone that hits you is a dirty ganker! I spent hours looking up the perfect zerg build and its ruined!!!

That's a strawman.

A ganker focuses exclusively on killing players.

A Roamer will kill players as they find them. But they actually do more than sit in one location and set up ambushes. They capture camps, join other zergs to help them take objectives. Run supplies. And inform their team about incoming forces.

You could also just treat the warclaw as an expendable resource...

It can't be that hard to make it so the player has to pay a few gold to get a new one if they get theirs destroyed.

> @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > @"Graymalkyn.8076" said:

> > A strong commander can take what he's given and make it work. A weak commander will rely on meta builds only. If, as a commander, you rely on a meta build only group, then you should probably work on your leadership skills.

>

> Make what work, specifically? Taking down a meta group with a non-meta group? Or avoiding fights and capping stuff without resistance? There ARE limits to what a commander can do with what he's given and a smart commander knows this. I think you are just talking from pride, not from anything practical.

A non-meta group can kill a meta group. The trick is simply hoe you approach the fight. And thats the limits of a lot of commanders. They really don't take advantage of how dynamic The game mode is.

Are you using high ground? Bottle necks? Do you have artillery support? Did you snipe the enemy commander? Did you force the enemy zerg to spread out so they can't take advantage of stacking? Did you force them to trickle in?

Instead of treating it like an actual war. The commanders try to reinact Lord of the rings where there is a nonsensical cluster truck of melee with no arrows, or cannons... Or catapults. Which were used in actual open field combat.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Arenets over last few years have pretty much promoted the few one trick pony mechanics that thief has while continuing to nerf its actual fighting capabilities resulting in most thieves relying one those few mechanics as a way to actually be effective.problem is made worse due to those one trick pony mechanics being annoying to fight against leading to salt and op claims. Doubt it’s ever going to change as it seems arenanet doesn’t know what to do with thief and non thief players(the majority of the community) will alway cry op etc due to the thieves design and the playstyle arenet promotes within the class. There’s even posters saying it’s one of the best 1v1 classes lmao

Supposed to be a great 1v1. A quick check in the Wiki for thief will reveal that it's "deadly" in 1v1 Which is true at launch. It was one of the strongest classes at direct fighting. But it often fell short when dealing with groups. The 1v1 is no longer true.

> @"Hackuuna.4085" said:

> It's to prepare for the eventuality of new skills added.

>

> Burrow: You and your mount burrow -- become invisible and lose access to all skills except un-burrow. You cannot see anything while burrowed.

> Bowel Movement: You leave behind a loot bag that prevents sniffing until collected.

> Sniff: Reveal any burrowed enemies.

>

> New trick: Collect bowel movement. Costs 25 supply and removes one bowel movement within 1200 range. Bowel movements can be returned to the trick vendor for a refund of 25 supply.

Sniff, give your mount a cold

> @"bbop.9706" said:

> I wholeheartedly disagree with the OP.

>

> I dont want glass meta.

Yeah. Id rather have build diversity, than people flocking to something nonsensical

Ive always been one that preferred getting by on my own skill and improving. Thief resonates with that at launch before anet began treating them like hiw our gov treats war vets. Hint, badly.

And the sad part is. Because thief scaled hard on your skill... It turns into a catch 22. Nerf hits that makes the class feel like ass... And your fiest instinct is to salvage what is left and try to power through because you don't need ANETs help.

You get berfed just as you get used to your weakened state, and it repeats.

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > @"Oldgrimm.8521" said:

>

> I think they've given in to the, _not entirely wrong though_, opinion of large part of the community that Thief in itself is a balanced profession.

>

>

Except we are high risk, high reward.

Problem is that we have a gimped reward now, and have to fight through a series of passives they've given to help counter us. I agree when it was for one shot builds. But so much of it can carry players and we have no way through it outside of running our heads into a brick wall.

Most of our utils also have never been updated with the changes of time... So...

> @"xZombieTaco.5809" said:

> The whole point of thief is to be high risk high reward. But Anet took most of the reward away, now you're all risk no reward and midiocre dmg unless you spam vault or rifle 3. lol

PS... They made it so you can't vault and shadow step at the same time... Something no one complained about, and was difficult to pull off.

But yeah. Noody made it clear in the past. Anet hates thief, and the class is no longer what it uses to be.

> @"Loosmaster.8263" said:

> SOP= Standard Operating Procedures. If you're not running a META class or build, you are useless. Regardless if the squad is full or not.

I disagree here. Non-SOP characters are very effective when used well. The problem is for the number of competent commanders out there, there's also a lot of incompetent commanders who can't make good use of the resources they do have. You can completely flip a meta group onto it's head with a hodge podge zerg of random crap with tactics made on the fly.

Another note that is often forgotten, is that taking what is meta, does not mean you are guaranteed to win. If the player in the build knows nothing about the class, or the build, or lacks general skills. Then it's just as effective as running into a fight naked.

> @"BFMV.3198" said:

> Anet should just make thief like Assassin from Gw1

>

> Delete thief, and make Assassin and focus on things like shadow form, flashing blades and evasion and almost no stealth! Would be much better imho!

As an elite spec? Sure. But... no. Don't delete my thief.

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > The implementation of this mount as WvW only is horrible. This mount should be available just like any other mount, except that it's the only one that can go to the Mist.

> >

> > .............. it is able to be used in PvE.

>

> Nope, it's locked in PvE.

I just used the warclaw in pve....

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"getalifeturd.8139" said:

> > > @"Xenji.4907" said:

> > > > @"getalifeturd.8139" said:

> > > > Because it's your dodge and isn't used for just removing CC but for dodging attacks. Are thief players supposed to just avoid most team fights and 1v1 exclusively? This class isn't even close to the best at 1v1ing anymore. We can't fight in zergs in WvWvW and we can't decap any faster in pvp with all the mobility given to other classes. So what is thief's strength now exactly?

> > >

> > > Its for both.

> > > Uh... we are not meant to 1vs1... maybe s/d core but anybody that plays pvp or wvw should know that we specialize in mobility and +1ing. Yes we don't zerg well but we can roam well (invis, and escape. Thats why sustain is really big now to counter us). Really? I Decap and run all the time. That is our strength. Some sets don't excell well which is a problem with so many boon farting and sustain that other class but they have their own problems but this is not about Unhindered Combatant...

> > >

> > > > Also all the stealth detection given to other players via Marked effect and traps (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) makes half our class aka stealth obsolete. Then you've got mounts added which can out-run thieves with shortbow so what's next guys? What do we have that's unique to our class?

> > >

> > > Well blame that to the perm invis from DE. They ruined it. Plus, i build around speed and burst. Invis is just for a set up for Backstab and quick running away. Out run shortbow? Sometimes if we are in their claimed area but not in mine. I shortbow them easy and I would get off mounts for my shortbow since its fast in my opinion.

> > >

> > > > And before you mention shadow meld let me remind you that Detected! is an effect applied to players that enter stealth while they are marked. If they are stealthed for more than 2 seconds while detected, they will become revealed. Exiting stealth before this effect expires will remove this effect.

> > > >

> > >

> > > See your anger is mostly about stealth problems and not UC.

> > >

> >

> > I'm not angry mate but the thing is that all of our options have become limited. We don't have much choice when it comes to variety in builds. They nerf every new option we get and older options too at the same time. You've both mentioned s/d core and of course d/p shortbow has been meta since launch. Tell me what happened to the build diversity of thief?

> >

>

> Your build choices is only limited to what you want to do.

> - If you want to decap and +1, then there's more than one build for that.

> - If you want to stay in the node and defend, there's more than one build for that.

> - If want to play tactical and remove boons, there's a build for that.

> - If you want to roam in WvW, there's more than one build for that.

> - If you want to DPS in raids, there's a build for that.

>

> So I don't see why you're complaining about limited options. What makes the meta for you is the build that you can play well, not the build that you should play just because some top players are good at it.

I think he's more so talking about the fact that some of thief's options is more like shooting yourself in the foot to use, compared to everything else.

Trickery almost always eats up a Trait line slot because of Preparedness is too much to give up with the costs of Thief's skills in PvP. It's removal, and adjustment of thief's initiative costs and charge rates will open up options. Replace Preparedness with something Like Pack-Tactics - gives Thief a stacking buff for being in proximity of team players (up to three players). Each additional player adds a different buff in this order: First is a stacking increase to movement speed, second is initiative recharge rate speed up, third is increased power.

Some of Thieves Utilities and traits are dysfunctional:

* Shadow Trap is a prime example. Anet clearly does not plan on fixing it despite it being brought up at least ten times a month. I am fairly certain it has not been used since the nerf and people figured out that it no longer worked properly.

* Pulminary Impact is rarely used now. The damage isn't worth it for something that's generally hard to do. A good solution without raising damage is to apply a unique debuff that significantly lowers the healing a player can do. Hemorrhage - Reduce all effective healing by 20%, stacks with poison (As in you hit them in the pulmonary artery). Or Apply Exhaustion for a few seconds, as you hit them hard in the lungs.

Some of thieves Utilities take too long to use, or to be effective. Pretty much has to be used in stealth, either blowing two utilities if you're dagger dagger. Or blowing a lot of initiative if you are dagger pistol.

* Caltrops has a 1 second cast time, which is basically an eternity of doing bone fuck nothing to throw a bunch of pointy things on the ground in a small area. The ability would be more useful if it could be casted in half a second, and the caltrops stayed for a longer duration. Scorpion wire would be useful, if the projectile thrown actually traveled faster. You can see it coming from a mile away as it has a very distinct animation which is unusual to a thief, and the projectile is also whirling for some reason.

* The Thieves Guild Elite skill takes 2 seconds to cast. What makes this a little ridiculous is that the AI is the PvE model, and doesn't match the model that you could find in the Mist. Which could wreck your shit. I'd be fine with the cast time if the AI was upgraded. But as it stands, they aren't worth much unless that thief starts mass spamming his scorpion wire. So... you have to cast it early... which feels odd given elites are meant to turn the tables.

And Some of the thieves traits are kinda pointless at times.

* Two Second evasion is nice... till you realize you're still ticking down from condi with your small health pool. Awesome against power builds however.... except that their damage is high enough to blast through your HP before it's triggered. I would honestly raise the thresh hold a bit for their low HP pool.

* Dodge for one point of initiative, on a five second cool down.... whoooooooo.

* Healing for initiative spent sounds good. But the amount is barely enough to help you withstand one punch to the face after blowing through a health bar. If the hit was glancing, sure... but even a weakened blow hurts like fuck. And given that everyone either runs High crit Power, or Condi... it's kinda not worth taking most of the time.