Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

> @"youdeinator.4327" said:

> Yeah that is kinda what I expected and I am still figuring things out. I played a couple of matches and I actually decided to test out just focusing on a high damage and really high mobility build instead of focusing on stealth and it is working out pretty decently so far. There have been a few matches where I have gotten worked pretty hard lol but for the most part I am really doing decently well with it I think. low deaths and really high damage most matches

Mmm... a quick tip. Learn to use your shortbow for fighting.

Most thieves just leave it as mobility. Which is fair. On the surface, it doesn't have much going for it. It's got low damage, relatively slow, and a short range. For someone who's bursty it doesn't make sense. But the shortbow has a lot of things that counters a good deal of the BS happening in the PvP realm.

The auto attack hits decently hard, and bounces on enemies. So it can deal a surprisingly good amount of damage. Not only that, but it's super useful for clearing out mesmer's clones as they are thrown up.

The Poison field is useful outside of Condi builds. Remember that I mentioned that a lot of classes have really good sustain? Poison reduces the effectiveness of healing by 33% which is critical for thieve, given that a lot of your damage will be quickly erased. Poison is also what makes dagger training super useful to have for daggers. The damage is neglegible, but the fact that you can reduce their healing is important. It's often a good idea to throw the poison field onto downed enemies to massively slow down allies who are trying to rally them.

The Cluster bomb is a tad tricky to use, but knowing how to work it is a game changer. It chunks pretty hard. Causes bleeding. And it's one of Thief's few AoEs. A single blast will destroy mesmer clones. And it's also really good for hurting thieves who are cloaked and likely trying to go for a back stab. The skill is also relatively low cost for what it does. Blasting your Poison field with it causes weakness.

The Disabling Shot is going to be what you chain with dodges. You can't spam evade with it alone. But if you chain it with your natural dodges, you can basically go untouched in an entire fight. It also cripples. So... they will have a rough time trying to catch you.

And finally what the shortbow is probably most well known for on thief is Infiltrators arrow. It's great for kiting. And most importantly, it's what gives thief the insane mobility. Going long distances... it's one of your slower options. The magic is when there's a bunch of shit in the way. As it allows you to quickly climb walls or platforms, as long as there is a walkable path and LoS to where you're teleporting.

Your most efficient option for running on foot is to infiltrator arrow away, and swap weapons to a dagger main hand. And use heart seeker to run. The lower cost means you can cover a larger distance relatively quickly... even if two casts equates to the same cost and distance.

On a side note, there are builds that exclusively use double Shortbows. It sounds like a meme, but the shortbow is really that good when you know how to use it. The reason for the double shortbow, is you have a trait that restores ini on swap, and the sigil of energy recharges your endurance.

Overall... if you ever find yourself outnumbered, shortbow will be the tool that either gets you out alive, or kill them all.

Some useful utilities for it is....

Trip Wire, Spike Trap, Roll for Initiative, Haste, Shadow Step, Smoke Screen (Projectile Hate, Blinding Arrows, Blast for Invisibility, whirling axe in it for mass blind spam. Dagger leaping through it causes stealth), Devourer Venom, Ice Drake Venom.

A good way to get some practice, is to make a new thief, and take shortbow exclusively through the campaign.

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> The implementation of this mount as WvW only is horrible. This mount should be available just like any other mount, except that it's the only one that can go to the Mist.

.............. it is able to be used in PvE.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Luna.6203" said:

> > 1) detargeting

>

> For those not in the know, there is a keybind you can set in menu called "Previous Target."

>

> Bind it to something.

>

> It's pretty simple. If you detarget something manually, or are forced a detarget by a mesmer, or target something else it will retarget your previous target for you. A mesmer uses detarget? You can retarget them with 100% guarantee with the push of a button immediately. No tab targeting through clones.

>

> Mesmer thief or anything else stealths? You can retarget them once they've left with with 100% effectiveness. No tabbing through clones or other enemy team members. Always just get your previous target 100% of the time.

>

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > um...that's a weird analogy because spellbreakers counter mirage

>

> Condi mirage eats spellbreakers alive unless heavily outskilled in my experience. The only normal skill I find seriously threatening I feel is Whirlwind Blade because of how fast it comes out and how much damage it can do if they've ramped 20+ might stacks. Rampage can be threatening if caught off guard but even then chances are you have stun breaks, stealth, Phase Retreat, Blink, and if they managed to CC you you can still dodge while stunned. Frankly more often than not rampage is more an opportunity to counter pressure them and win the fight because they abandon access to condition cleanses and resistance. Like there have been so many times where the Spellbreaker is sustaining really well or landed a good hit on me and had me worried I might lose and then threw the fight because they rampaged and gave me an opportunity to dump all my damage into them for free. Doubly so because Warriors in rampage are usually in such a rush to dump out damage in Rampage form that they frequently don't bother to dodge..

>

> Like the only Spellbreakers I lose to are guys who hang out in the top 25 really consistently.

Where is the Previous Target? I'm looking through the Targeting in the key bindings, and the closest to it is Previous Enemy, which doesn't do what you mentioned.

> @"Fortus.6175" said:

> > @"djoun.3425" said:

> > It's also useless

>

> Yup, I too find the barriers, condi covertion, improved shadow refuge with lower CD, self and team healing, superspeed, node sustain power and mid fight team support completely useless. They should add a skill that lets them get barrier every 3 seconds when they get hit, that way they can negate some of the damage they receive, as well as make it so that every condi they convert have no ICD like literally any other strong GM trait along those lines. Personally Im looking forward to the buffs so they can be useful for their team.

You know... the odd part is. With how complicated Engie can get. I'm totally fine with this, as they live and die by their utility bar. The shadow refuge is questionable though.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Fortus.6175" said:

> > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > Wait for a 6months or 1-2 years until they nerf it. If any class that overperform is not thief its fine (even if thief is underperforming they must be nerfed to be unplayble)

> > >

> > > FTFY. This has been happening to thieves long before mesmer, and is still going.

> >

> > I find it so funny that thieves are always complaining about how "bad" and "nerfed" they are yet in the 6 years of GW2, they have been a constant in competitive play, and are found in all ranks, always have had at least 1 viable build and despite multiple nerfs, they keep finding strong meta builds:

> >

> > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

> > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Marauder_S/D

> >

> > You can like or dislike this website all you want, but they only record the builds played by people in AT and ranked matches, it is peer reviewed and up to voting. They are on the highest tier (have had builds there for as long as the website has existed).

> >

> > But nope, thieves are poor poor creatures who have no viable builds nor role that has remained uncontested, without the unmatched decaping capabilities, one of the strongest 1v1 and +1 build in existence that is the support killer, nope, not at all.

> > Like, is anyone fooled by these comments anymore? I understand the complains when it comes from necros, revs and eles at different times, but thieves? Cmon..

>

> Of course Thief remains Meta. They have Shortbow 5. However, you are critically wrong on one aspect. "One of the strongest 1v1 builds in existence". The correct wording would be "the single *weakest* 1v1 build in existence". Unless the enemy thief is much better than you are, you should *never* be losing the 1v1 on any build that wants to 1v1. Hell, even most teamfighting builds that usually struggle in 1v1 still should not lose to thief. The problem with thief is that while it will always be strong, because being able to move around the map twice as fast as any other class, in a gamemode where standing on points is the best thing you can do, is incredibly strong, its arguably not very engaging or satisfying. The class was pitched as the standin for assassin. A rogue class. A class you expect to be very strong in 1v1s in exchange for being very weak in teamfights. Instead, you get sPvPs Janitor. Always neccessary, but I imagine not the job most people find fulfilling.

>

> Edit: Oh and since I forgot, the reason people complain about thief nerfs, is what they target. Any time a thief build appears, that actually can win *some* 1v1s, it immideatly gets nerfed. Sometimes even builds that arent even good enough for that randomly get nerfed. Those nerfs obviously do nothing about Thieves meta status because none ever touched shortbow 5, but they make trying to play thief as a dueling class even more pointless.

Adding to this, you would think the one with the mobility, and the role of being an assassin would not only be responsible for going deep into enemy lines to decap/cap. But also eliminate anyone they find roaming alone, weakened, or far from their group in team fights. But nope, can't do that. Thief can't out trade any reasonable build.

Warrior.

Warrior is incredibly fair and does things you would expect from the name warrior. It doesn't have uncharacteristic teleporting like guardian. It can faceroll, but doing so is fatal. You don't feel confused when it suddenly ignores damage. And you don't feel cheated when fighting one.

Thief feels under powered. I would slightly revert the auto nerfs, default preparedness, and adjust the traits to better reward thief for pulling off hard things, and lower the cost of interrupt skills.

Elementalist feels underpowered. But weaver feels like it carries the player too much.

Condi Mesmer needs to be nocked down. Or adjust cleansing skills to give a brief moment of respite.

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> hahahahha

>

> the class is already dead and you still have people crying that it's op. But i knew that's gonna happen anyway.

>

> The developers only nerfed the skill based weapons and mechanics on mirage and left the brain-afk things in the game. Axe nerfed beyond any reason whatsaoever the wep is 3 times weaker than before. But what is axe? Axe is a 120 range (melee) weapon that requires a lot of stamina to do CONDITIONAL DAMAGE (can be countered) (need stamina to use mirage ambush). It's a melee higher risk weapon which can also be higher reward, but it's skill based how to use axe. Same with cry of confusion - a melee shatter which requires illusion management and proper comboing with it and it was also nerfed.

>

> Let's see what was left in the game tho - staff, completely untouched. Still has the same playstyle as before (summon 3 illusions and watch them spam slowly bouncing auto attack that does huge damage) with 1200 range and vigor/protection boons which keep you safe with a low cd blink which can be used to kite melees and ofcourse with chaos storm which is not a skill that can be ignored. So they nerfed axe which was higher risk and required skill but staff was untouched, which is the opposite of axe. Instead of promoting skillful gameplay they're doing the exact opposite.

> Then there's the actual problem with mesmer and it is that sage's amulet on mesmer is busted cus it gives too much healing. They should've nerfed how much mesmer abilities are influenced by healing (as they have done for other classes and skills) but they didn't, so mesmer with staff and sage basically can run in circle with 0 skill and heal for 400k+ every game. XD.

>

> Mirage is trash, i wouldn't pick the class any more if i were building a "really good team and aiming to win" because the class was simply nerfed out of this game. Nerfed every single patch consistently until this last one completely destroyed axe. Staff/sword are still good tho but the gameplay and the style is incredibly boring and the role is inferior to other classes in the same role and depends on its team too much.

>

> Instead of getting a more balanced/more fun game what we got was a way more boring game and the only viable classes in the current meta are literally snoozefest afk bunkers like scrapper and running in circle on a point and waiting for a +1 and not actually playing the game. They nerfed the fun mirage gameplay/build for no reason but left the toxic/boring one so if people wanted to troll they could still do it but they simply wouldn't be viable any more. Also for the generic "QQ MIRAGE " i suppose there's nothing more to say than l2p, mirage hasn't been op for half a year now but it's people like you that peer pressured arena net's developers into destroying the only fun class in this game. Now instead of gw2 keeping up with other games of 2019, it feels like a 2009 game to me because they even thought it's a good idea to make skills clunkier and harder to use as a nerf, instead doing the exact opposite to make the game feel more fluid and modern. Lol.

>

> So to sum it up, no , mirage is nowhere near op. Mirage is the worst class in the game now (officially worse than elementalist) and the only semi-viable build for mirage is a boring slow one with sustain and bad dmg

This is lff topic. But try sheathing your weapon to leave that running animation.> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Luna.6203" said:

> > 1) detargeting

>

> For those not in the know, there is a keybind you can set in menu called "Previous Target."

>

> Bind it to something.

>

> It's pretty simple. If you detarget something manually, or are forced a detarget by a mesmer, or target something else it will retarget your previous target for you. A mesmer uses detarget? You can retarget them with 100% guarantee with the push of a button immediately. No tab targeting through clones.

>

> Mesmer thief or anything else stealths? You can retarget them once they've left with with 100% effectiveness. No tabbing through clones or other enemy team members. Always just get your previous target 100% of the time.

>

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > um...that's a weird analogy because spellbreakers counter mirage

>

> Condi mirage eats spellbreakers alive unless heavily outskilled in my experience. The only normal skill I find seriously threatening I feel is Whirlwind Blade because of how fast it comes out and how much damage it can do if they've ramped 20+ might stacks. Rampage can be threatening if caught off guard but even then chances are you have stun breaks, stealth, Phase Retreat, Blink, and if they managed to CC you you can still dodge while stunned. Frankly more often than not rampage is more an opportunity to counter pressure them and win the fight because they abandon access to condition cleanses and resistance. Like there have been so many times where the Spellbreaker is sustaining really well or landed a good hit on me and had me worried I might lose and then threw the fight because they rampaged and gave me an opportunity to dump all my damage into them for free. Doubly so because Warriors in rampage are usually in such a rush to dump out damage in Rampage form that they frequently don't bother to dodge..

>

> Like the only Spellbreakers I lose to are guys who hang out in the top 25 really consistently.

Wait. What the fuck.

It retargets the real mesmer?

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > @"Don Vega Van Kain.9842" said:

> > > @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > > I am not at home right now but feel free to add my tag to check my badge because other wise my experiences don't matter. Or that playing other classes can basically push me into plat doesn't matter. Thief is still "meta".

> > >

> > > Also it's not really just me that thinks thief is under powered. Plenty of YouTube thieves that are much higher ranked than me think so too. Not mentioning any names.

> >

> > Thief is not OP, all what he have of OP is his mobility, he's much more...annoying with his builds (sword build with the 2 2 2 2 and the staff one with all the evades)

> >

> > Thief is more like a fly who harass and you kill you with wear.

>

> I think you misunderstood what I meant. I was basically being scarastic to that guy who thinks thief is great and meta.

>

> I fully support what you say. That it's just an annoyance. Unless it's some God tier player like Sindrener. But that guy basically plays any class well. As much as I don't like him. I admit he is good.

I got you. Now let me go jump ibto a pile of pointy horns for my defensive stupidity.

League of Legends does this. But it doesn't really solve anything. Just makes matters worse.

A low rank would have his arguments immediately brushed asside despite the likely hood of it being genuine complaints.

And higher ranks would use their ranks as validation for their arguments, when you can see it as asinine pretty damn quickly. It usually becomes shit like, "I am top 100 and..." And the following posts is no one giving a crap about what he and is ego thinks.

Then you have players with multiple accounts because of the MMR system is normally average based.

And so forth. Reay, it just devolves into a bigger shit show than what the pvp forums already is.

I can tell you right now that Im unranked, and haven't touched the mode in a long time as I don't give a crap for sPvP. Outside of friendly games between friends and my guild anyways. Because playing thief in that mode is genuinely not fun with the role you get shoe horned in, and being in that role of letting your team do the work is called being a team player.

> @"Fortus.6175" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > Wait for a 6months or 1-2 years until they nerf it. If any class that overperform is not thief its fine (even if thief is underperforming they must be nerfed to be unplayble)

> >

> > FTFY. This has been happening to thieves long before mesmer, and is still going.

>

> I find it so funny that thieves are always complaining about how "bad" and "nerfed" they are yet in the 6 years of GW2, they have been a constant in competitive play, and are found in all ranks, always have had at least 1 viable build and despite multiple nerfs, they keep finding strong meta builds:

>

> https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

> https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Marauder_S/D

>

> You can like or dislike this website all you want, but they only record the builds played by people in AT and ranked matches, it is peer reviewed and up to voting. They are on the highest tier (have had builds there for as long as the website has existed).

>

> But nope, thieves are poor poor creatures who have no viable builds nor role that has remained uncontested, without the unmatched decaping capabilities, one of the strongest 1v1 and +1 build in existence that is the support killer, nope, not at all.

> Like, is anyone fooled by these comments anymore? I understand the complains when it comes from necros, revs and eles at different times, but thieves? Cmon..

Play the class for longer than a year and figure out just how significantly hard it is to actually kill another player around a similar skill level. Then quickly figure out that currently many classes do what you're supposed to do better with fewer sacrifices. And less need for glassy builds.

No thief is asking to be OP. No thief feels like they should be able to kill an entire team alone and call it fair like mesmer. We're fine with not getting anything, if everyone else is realed in to our level. We just want to actually feel like a damn threat, and not have another moment of...

I took our half of your HP by burning a mug, a heart seejer, and a backstab and did half of your health in damage! Annnd its gone! I backstab again for a fourt of your health! And thats gone too! I guess Ill just run away.

But sure. I guess all we're good for is decapping. God can fuck us with the earth its self for wanting to be worth more than a rock in a shoe.

Another note. Metabuilds for thief is a bit of a joke. Theres nothing in the kit that can carry you. There are one hit builds and things like that, but learning how they work will make them useless. Really, its damage control, and mechanical abuse. And hoping the enemy is stupid enough to not realize whats happening when you do something like whirlaxing a warrior in a smoke field.

> @"youdeinator.4327" said:

> > @"Remixex.2089" said:

> > Well regarding your comment on ranged elite specs....you picked the class with a sniper PoF spec :D and if you go full power gear you can swap between ninja and sniper gameplay on the fly :)

> >

> >

>

> Yeah Thats what I was seeing :) thats why I went with Thief, but I like to play casters so I was hoping for something that would fit the bill

If you go into PvP as a thief, you'll need to expect to die a lot.

Thieves are unique from the other classes for more than their ini pool. The game's PvP scene is a lot like playing battleship, where you trade blows between one another. Either you go full gong-ho and kill them before they can do anything. Or you out sustain them while putting out hurt.

Thieves do not stay alive the same way other classes do. You don't have defensive passives, unique buffs, access to a lot of buffs, Only one block from daredevil, and no way to generate aegis or resistance. You get swiftness, but not superspeed. You have only have two reliable means of shaking of condi. Which is a single Signet, and stealth. The ones in your skill bar will likely get you killed because of confusion and torment.

What thieves do have defensively is stealth... which is kinda broken at the moment. It's supposed to drop targeting, but channeled attacks that's been casted before you cloak still follow through and track you. A lot of dodges, kiting, blinds, interrupts, and means to shake off CC. It takes a good amount of skill to actually stand toe to toe with someone. But the reward for it is hardly worth mentioning right now, (thanks anet).

Basically... everything that annoys the enemy. Thieves used to have the highest burst damage to make up for everything they lacked. But because of the thing's play style, people complained, and ANET would rather back up the complainer's than to leave it be. So... compared to the defenses and raw damage output of other classes. It will take you more effort to kill someone, while they can push a button and erase you in a second.

You also can not afford to let them pressure you, or make the fights drag out. You will never be able to out sustain another class in drawn out fights. And you won't really be able to afford any ability with a casting time of longer than half a second. Unlike other classes. Your ini pool will completely lock you out of your entire skill bar if you run out. And some of the skills are unreasonably expensive for what they do.

Deadeye hits hard. But to do it, you trade off mobility. You'll be able to take out the average player pretty easily with Rifle. But competent players will give you problems. Again, mobility is thief's strongest defense. So... that trade off will certainly hurt. Fortunately, you have stealth, which will keep you alive while you re position.

Thief is fun in PvP. Just don't expect the class's kit to do you any favors in affording mistakes.

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> Wait for a 6months or 1-2 years until they nerf it. If any class that overperform is not thief its fine (even if thief is underperforming they must be nerfed to be unplayble)

FTFY. This has been happening to thieves long before mesmer, and is still going.

> @"Brendan.1309" said:

> You cannot compare scrappers reflects with evasive mirror, Mesmers defensive uptime vs projectiles is insane and they can actually hunt you down and hurt you.

>

> As a ranger main, I support a meta with slow moving ~~targets~~ players that deal little damage.

Is it because they will never catch you?

A three way King of the hill fight would be interesting.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> Yeah poor engies..they had it rough since HoT launch...the gw2 community is wrong once again....they only recently became meta , playable after 4 years since 2015

Wasn't Scrapper gods of holding points back in HoT before they were realed in?

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> > > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > > It's a dang war zone, not a place where chicken players can that easily avoid fights.

> >

> > Better remove mirage, thief, etc then.

> >

>

> If they avoid fights, then why are there people complaining about getting killed by them? :x just sayin

Because people will complain about what ever.

Mirage... I would defend it, if I hadn't seen a video where all the guy had was trail blazer trinkets, and no armor 100-to-0 people in the blink of an eye. I wouldn't outright nerf Condi Mirage. I'd just make it so cleanses give a very brief resistance. Maybe just 1 or 2 seconds, to combat the fact that it can just be reapplied all over again.

Thief because they can pretty much come out of bone fuck no where and do massive damage to glassy builds. And in my one-week of experience... commanders want people in Zerks for some fucking reason. But after that burst, it requires thief far more effort against a competent player, than the competent player against a thief.

Ranger... I guess soulbeast is broken? People are starting to complain about it.

> @"BFMV.3198" said:

> To all the people at Arenanet

>

> I have one question. Just one. Why do you feel the constant need to nerf any and all thief specs into the ground! Like please, share some insight as to why thief never gets any buffs and just constantly gets nerfed. I seriously want to understand your thought process because as it stands, all I can think of is you hate the class and would rather you never made it.

>

> Everytime I see updates and profession changes, I am like here we go, what is next?

>

> Deadeye was by and far my favorite thing about thief and the most fun apart from the good old days of xv1 P/D thief back in 2013 I have ever had.

>

> All you do is nerf thief specs, and this 1 second on dodge has made the trait so useless it is actually laughable. Where is the compensation for all the nerfs you do!

>

> And why is three-round-burst 6 initiative! 5 would have been fairer but it was fine at 4 but I'd be fine with 5 but 6 is stupid!

Don't expect ANET to ever help thieves. There has been so many questions directed towards ANET, and no answers.

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > I would have just added a charr tank for sieging.

>

> I would've preferred this, a medium speed tank but you can only have 1 on the map at a time

well... two to an area. Their speed would make em pretty vulnerable And you can only get em if You control a keep or stonemist.

Bard for thief.

Thief is in desperate need for support functions. Well... A lot of things really

I would have just added a charr tank for sieging.

> @"getalifeturd.8139" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"getalifeturd.8139" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said:

> > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"getalifeturd.8139" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"getalifeturd.8139" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ha!

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > .......

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your suggestion was good but it necessitate a stacking effect, so meh.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > More than meh. The possibility of 9 seconds of exhaustion from a single dodge is not worth the 2 from cripple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 dodge can apply max of 4s of exhaust, the problem is if u dodge to break immob, than get immobilized and dodge again, than it can summ up to 12 s, but these are extreme situations.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > i dont rly get the change to exhaustion stacking, its just stupid.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have 3 different Movement impairing conditions UC will clear all of them and stack Exhaustion.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Patch notes:

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Exhaustion: This effect now stacks in duration up to 3 times.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Unhindered Combatant: The duration of exhaustion that this trait applies when dodging is now 2 seconds if crippled is present, 3 seconds if chilled is present, and 4 seconds if immobilized is present. Exhaustion will now be applied when the dodge is initiated.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Note: _Exhaustion will now be applied when the dodge is initiated._

> > > > > > > > > > > > Meaning: **Only one stack of Exhaustion per dodge.**

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > If immob, then Exhaust = 4s

> > > > > > > > > > > > Else if chilled, then Exhaust = 3s

> > > > > > > > > > > > Else if crippled, then Exhaust = 2s

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Removing all three CCs in a single dodge will not give you 3 stacks. It only applies the longest duration per dodge. So if you have all three CCs, you only get 4s of Exhaustion.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > The stacking happens when you break CC every dodge within the duration. Example, if you break an Immob, you get 4s Exhaust. Then 2s later you broke another Immob, then you get another 4s. Since only 2s had passed, you will now have 2 stacks of Exhaustion that will expire in 6s, which is a total Exhaustion time of 8s. Since DD has a 3rd dodge, you can stack another Exhaustion if you break another Immob. Your total Exhaustion time will be 12s -- that is 12s without Endurance regen. Then you'll have to wait for Endurance to regen normally which is roughly 30s (without Vigor, 15s with Vigor) for a total Endurance denial of ~42s.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Just as someone mentioned before, this is an extreme case.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Problem is it's not that extreme and now that exhaustion stacks people will know to keep loading up the thief with cripple/chilled/immobilise to keep the daredevil locked out of endurance regeneration forever. In fact in situations where people have lots of access to any of those conditions every dash can stack more exhaustion on you 3 times for more total endurance regeneration shutdown than before. As usual this is Arenanet's attempt to buff thief but in reality it's a nerf.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The best thing about Daredevil is that you can spec for Brawlers and gain Endurance by using Physical skills. Steal also gives Endurance. You can also bring Signet of Agility if it worries you that much.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The fact is, you have a choice whether to take Exhaustion or not. You don't have to break every CC. So it's very unlikely and a bit exaggerated that you will be locked out of endurance forever.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > And if you don't like Exhaustion, you can spec for Acrobatics and take Don't Stop.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Funny you say that because I did some research and guess what I found out?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Exhaustion will now be applied when the dodge is initiated.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unhindered_Combatant

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Expeditious_Dodger

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > In both patch notes it says: Swiftness granted by this trait will now occur at the end of the dodge.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Don%27t_Stop

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Because Don't stop removes conditions on gaining swiftness and exhaustion is applied at the beginning of the dodge while swiftness is gained at the end of the dodge that means it will never remove the conditions before exhaustion is applied.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Typical coming from someone who don't play a Thief. Use Don't Stop instead of Unhindered -- I thought that was a given.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Acro with daredevil is redundant, and acro without is irrelevant to this discussion. Do you play thief?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That is not what he is saying. Like at all lol. If you don't like the unhindered trait change then you swap DD for Acro and take Don't Stop in acro. Do you play thief?

> > > > >

> > > > > Acro with daredevil is redundant, and _**acro without is irrelevant to this discussion.**_ Do you play thief?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The discussion is about Exhaustion and what options is available to avoid it, thus it is relevant. The original topic is a suggestion about avoiding the 4s Exhaustion, thus it prompts a reply that if Exhaustion is not acceptable, then there are other options if ArenaNet didn't take this suggestion.

> > > >

> > > > I have listed the options above if you bother to read them.

> > >

> > > Options to avoid it are don't use unhindered combatant because it's overpowered compared to the rest of the traits. Says the totally main thief who isn't whiteknighting for Arenanet.

> > >

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > You call it "punishment", I see it as "trade-off". If we're going to be perfectly honest, Unhindered is overpowered compare to the other DD GM traits.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > It's not really whiteknighting to say if you don't like the downsides of something don't use it, that's just common sense. I've been playing dash since the patch and it feels fine, I've not been locked out of endurance regen for obscene durations as you suggest, and if a player is using exhaustion to wear down a dash thief it's simply good play on their part. I used to do the same on my P/D thief to avoid giving them cleanses off of EA, just aim my immobs for the end of their dodges and wait for them to disengage.

>

> But that's the thing man I did like using unhindered combatant for years with s/p and when it was nerfed eventually I quit the game. It was the only playstyle that I loved to play where I could dodge everything with timing and prediction. It was the true meaning of active combat. Not based on passive procs but on evade frames. It felt like the matrix and that is what I miss. I suppose it was too good in the hands of a skilled player but games like that become Esports. You can't hold back the competitive aspect because casual players ask for nerfs endlessly.

>

> They nerfed feline grace (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feline_Grace) before making daredevil so that people would need to use daredevil to get their 3rd dodge again. Now they nerfed daredevil's unhindered combatant (most useful skill of all of them allowing mobility without shortbow) for evade thieves to make sure that people will have to play deadeye.

>

> In doing so all Arenanet have done is forced thieves into d/p and shortbow that has been meta for thieves since the launch of the game. Bounding dodger and heartseeker in black powder for permastealth is more annoying to fight than evade thieves ever were. The difference between them is stealth is unpredictable and an escape mechanism while evades have to be timed and have counterplay since you can always see the thief.

>

> It's obvious Arenanet want to lower the skill cap of thief by forcing them into a ganker playstyle rather than with skilled play a damage avoiding tank. It's ok for spellbreaker to have overpowered skills because they're all passive but when a thief actively uses his skills to survive that's not ok. Casuals are not encouraged to pvp and wvw if you have masters of the thief class dominating them after years of practice.

>

> Pistolwhip (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pistol_Whip) was meta a long time ago and it was nerfed hard because it offered too much for a single skill. Reality is Arenanet will nerf what the players QQ the most about and that’s the truth. If a thread gets enough attention to be noticed by so many people jumping on the nerf thief bandwagon then it will happen. None of you have any real power except the masses. Majority rules in this world guys.

>

Well you do have Mobility outside of short bow.

Untargeted Heartseaker is often used as a 450 unit leap. And the low cost makes it pretty spammable without Trickery. I think it covers ground more quickly than Shortbow. Where shortbow covers ground better when you can jump up ledges, cliffs, and walkways.

Runes of Fireworks provides a permanent 20-25% movement speed boost.

I still personally don't see the reason in Nerfing unhindered combatant the way they did though. I also don't understand why Anet thinks it's a problem that thief can run away. They keep nerfing the shit out of the thief's kit. So obviously, the thief's primary option if things go south is to just run away. Why the crap would they stay and die to a class that can out do them in just about everything Anet took away?

But it's perfectly fine when a guardian with sword is able to one shot thief with a near instant teleporting attack.

Or that mirage can faceroll to kill with condi.

Both of those classes can outsustain the thief too.

So... in short... feel free to join the thieves. Just be aware... when you fall in love with the class, and wish for it to be better, and come onto the board to vent. The only people who will listen to your pain is other thieves. Not ANET, and certainly not the other professions.

And when a Non-thief complains about getting killed by something they don't understand what happens. You can explain what happened, and how to avoid it. But they won't listen.

Normally, I speak more positivily for this class. But that friggen P/D change through that out of the window.

So... welcome to Thief. Grab a wet noodle. And call it a dagger. And go reserve a spot in Ebonhawke grave yard. Dig yourself a grave. And get ready to visit it frequently.

> @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> > "Inspiring Reinforcement: This skill can no longer hit the same target multiple times in a single cast."

> >

> > They did it again, please stop, this stopped being funny months ago. For the uneducated this change guts power rev damage against large hit-boxes which was the only situation where it wasn't trash tier dps, the other changes this patch do not come close to being adequate compensation and power rev is even more bottom tier in pve than it already was.

>

> @ Systems team, every patch I keep thinking you can't possibly make pve power rev worse this patch and you all keep going "Hold my beer!" and then you actually go out and do even though you acknowledge it is struggling, I guess math is hard.

Hey! At least they didn't try to make a weapon combo more lethal for Rev! They sure as hell did a good job for it on thief P/D! Except, it's more like thief is pointing the gun at themselves now.

> @"Cobrakon.3108" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > 1. All Professions are good in PvE. The question is optimal at this point. But thats a different monster.

> > 2. Thief used to be good at deuling back towards launch. However, consecutive nerfs, buffs that aren't fixing problems, and repeated changes to other classes, and thiefs lack of passive defenses makes them horrendous at it. As it stands... Thief is a class where you can't afford mistakes, and the required skill to play it in PvP with lack luster rewards for effort makes it not worth it. I think the majority of the thief pvp players are from launch. Thief is one of the most complained classes before Mesmer became broken. And a large majority of it came from players who never played it, and don't know about it missing a lot of the most basic kitten other classes have. You would seriously have an easier time in literally any other class.

> > 3. Yes and no. From problems number 2. You can do hit and run. But be prepared to run a lot.

> >

> > As a thief... Knowing what other classes do will be the biggest thing that drives your skill. And second to that is mechanical abuse, as Anet obviously had no plans on helping you proper.

> >

> > If all the other classes got nerfed down To thiefs level. Then it would be a different story. As it stands... Thats likely never going to happen, and thief isn't getting any reasonable love soon.

> >

> > So if you get attached, expect an abusive relationship with patch notes.

> >

> > Now to be fair. It looks like Anet is trying. Unhindered Combat is less like shooting yourself in the foot. But the changes to P/D is like ringing the dinner bell now that the escape skill is locked away for four seconds

>

> I want to second the mechanical abuse part. Two Examples: 180 turn > shadow port of the rifle and also the looking at the ground for the staff before they fixed it (pve raids). Like you have to do weird unintended things to bring it to the next level, and its not like your bringing it to a balanced level, your just making it less junky. The game is more like slowly passing battle ships where there are times when you cant do damage or out damage sustain. What i want is more of a kung fu fight counter... punish counter punish dodge ded.

Or using Death's Retreat to leap over a gap to give your enemies difficulty.

Or using Infiltrator's Arrow to Climb walls quickly... (PS Mesmer can do it now...)

Or mapping the Sheath weapons to a button so you can...

...cancel your Cloak and Dagger animation, so you don't spend the expensive as all hell initiative for it and miss.

...cancel the attack on D/P's 3 skill so you can use it while cloaked, shadow step closer but not break stealth immediately.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > 1. All Professions are good in PvE. The question is optimal at this point. But thats a different monster.

> > 2. Thief used to be good at deuling back towards launch. However, consecutive nerfs, buffs that aren't fixing problems, and repeated changes to other classes, and thiefs lack of passive defenses makes them horrendous at it. As it stands... Thief is a class where you can't afford mistakes, and the required skill to play it in PvP with lack luster rewards for effort makes it not worth it. I think the majority of the thief pvp players are from launch. Thief is one of the most complained classes before Mesmer became broken. And a large majority of it came from players who never played it, and don't know about it missing a lot of the most basic kitten other classes have. You would seriously have an easier time in literally any other class.

> > 3. Yes and no. From problems number 2. You can do hit and run. But be prepared to run a lot.

> >

> > As a thief... Knowing what other classes do will be the biggest thing that drives your skill. And second to that is mechanical abuse, as Anet obviously had no plans on helping you proper.

> >

> > If all the other classes got nerfed down To thiefs level. Then it would be a different story. As it stands... Thats likely never going to happen, and thief isn't getting any reasonable love soon.

> >

> > So if you get attached, expect an abusive relationship with patch notes.

> >

> > Now to be fair. It looks like Anet is trying. Unhindered Combat is less like shooting yourself in the foot. But the changes to P/D is like ringing the dinner bell now that the escape skill is locked away for four seconds

>

> So it sounds like other than it being fun to play there really is no upside to playing it.

Yes and No. In PvE there's an upside to it. Somewhere. PvP not so much.

Thieves used to have more in their kit to help them out in PvP. But a good chunk of it got removed.

Now quite literally, you're fighting for every little advantage over another class you can get. Which the only one that is truely unique to us that no one else can do, is abuse mechanics. Thieves have some amount of Animation cancels, quick combos, and can even link some things together in a single attack. And also combo finishers that can let them stack stealth. But even that is not enough to completely swing a fight in your favor.

And the community will still complain about you. Because they don't treat the thief like it's own thing. And most immediately compare it to a rogue from world of warcraft or something. Basically games with vastly different combat styles and mechanics. Which is extremely unfair given that Warrior doesn't play anything close to warriors from other games. Guardians are able to do some damage and shadowstep. Elementalist is a caster that can absolutely ruin your week in Melee Range. And Mesmers are extremely tanky little shits.

Don't get me wrong. I love ANET. But it's hard to feel anything else than growing dread from balance patches as a thief.

Especially after they gave Backstab a cooldown, rather than just revealing the thief for hitting Aegis.

Especially after they made Unhindered Combatant, into "Hindered Combatant" Which ABSOLUTELY DESTROYS your primary means of protecting yourself for dodging while crippled. The only other elite who gets Exhaustion is Mirage, and that's only if they dodge while stunned.

After making the change to P/D without really asking the thieves what they thought of it. And thought locking away the escape skill for four long seconds was a good idea.

Never fixing Shadow Trap, but gladly gave Scoripon Wire 2 charges... and never increased the projectile speed so it's harder to avoid...

and so on... so forth.

Shadow Trap was a FANTASTIC utility in sPvP back in launch. And then they nerfed it. Gave it a line of sight requirement. And that line of sight requirement broke it. You can be five feet in front of it, on a flat plane, perfect navmesh, and nothing between you and it. And it will STILL FAIL BECAUSE OF THE LINE OF SIGHT

Nerfing Auto attack damage... to encourage thieves to use their skills more. But not adjusting the skills damage, nor their initiative costs. Wouldn't be so bad if it didn't feel like their initiative nerfs were under the assumption a thief always takes Trickery.

And going back to that Auto attack? It was only 15% total... according to the patch notes. What they don't tell you was how they did it. The first attacks in the auto chain have the LARGEST damage nerfs for dagger. The only way to get the 15% reduction is to land your third hit. And good luck on that!

Never addressing thieves complaints about Initiative, where trickery's 3 additional ini and the ini on steal making it a must in PvP for very good reasons. I mean, for crying out loud. People would probably be happy with Preparedness being removed if they have a better means of recharging their ini faster than the traits currently provide. Cuz 1 ini for a dodge is absolutely pathetic. Infiltrator's signet of 1ini every ten seconds is easily ignored.

A month's Hiatus is like playing DnD. Going from 3.5 to 5e as a Bard, and wandering what the crap happened, and why are you so weak. And Mesmer being the Rogue from 3.5 to 5e, where they are broke as all hell, and are able to do everything.

No really. Stick around for the thief threads. 90% of them are talking about ways to get around attoricious nerfs, complaints about the nerfs, 5% non-thieves coming onto the thief boards saying that certain crap needs to get nerfed because they got killed by it too many times, and didn't want to put in the effort to learn to avoid it. 2% video montages, 2% Builds, 1% new Players who we never hear from again. Likely because they realized all of the unaddressed problems thief has.