Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

1. All Professions are good in PvE. The question is optimal at this point. But thats a different monster.

2. Thief used to be good at deuling back towards launch. However, consecutive nerfs, buffs that aren't fixing problems, and repeated changes to other classes, and thiefs lack of passive defenses makes them horrendous at it. As it stands... Thief is a class where you can't afford mistakes, and the required skill to play it in PvP with lack luster rewards for effort makes it not worth it. I think the majority of the thief pvp players are from launch. Thief is one of the most complained classes before Mesmer became broken. And a large majority of it came from players who never played it, and don't know about it missing a lot of the most basic shit other classes have. You would seriously have an easier time in literally any other class.

3. Yes and no. From problems number 2. You can do hit and run. But be prepared to run a lot.

As a thief... Knowing what other classes do will be the biggest thing that drives your skill. And second to that is mechanical abuse, as Anet obviously had no plans on helping you proper.

If all the other classes got nerfed down To thiefs level. Then it would be a different story. As it stands... Thats likely never going to happen, and thief isn't getting any reasonable love soon.

So if you get attached, expect an abusive relationship with patch notes.

Now to be fair. It looks like Anet is trying. Unhindered Combat is less like shooting yourself in the foot. But the changes to P/D is like ringing the dinner bell now that the escape skill is locked away for four seconds

> @"Eramonster.2718" said:

> With no specific order: necro, ranger, warrior and thief. Just to note, easiest doesn't necessary mean best, if there's one.

Yeeeaaah... No. I would never recommend Thief as easy outside of the realm Of PvE

> @"Tycura.1982" said:

> (Regarding BQoBK)

> Now in my personal opinion thief needs more build options not less. They seemed to be getting pidgeon holed lately and I don't think your suggestion would help in that respect. Maybe just add some form of Condi damage to it without hurting power?

> I would like to see more love for old specs that have fallen out. They kind of did that with P/D but it's underwhelming.

To give thief more build options. Theyd need to do something about initiative expenses and trickery's preparedness. In the past thief could get by without it. But with all the changes up to this point they can't.

Adjusting weapon sets and fixing/updating their utilities is also needed.

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"getalifeturd.8139" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"getalifeturd.8139" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > @"getalifeturd.8139" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > ha!

> > > > > > > > > > > > .......

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Your suggestion was good but it necessitate a stacking effect, so meh.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > More than meh. The possibility of 9 seconds of exhaustion from a single dodge is not worth the 2 from cripple.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 1 dodge can apply max of 4s of exhaust, the problem is if u dodge to break immob, than get immobilized and dodge again, than it can summ up to 12 s, but these are extreme situations.

> > > > > > > > > i dont rly get the change to exhaustion stacking, its just stupid.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If you have 3 different Movement impairing conditions UC will clear all of them and stack Exhaustion.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Patch notes:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Exhaustion: This effect now stacks in duration up to 3 times.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Unhindered Combatant: The duration of exhaustion that this trait applies when dodging is now 2 seconds if crippled is present, 3 seconds if chilled is present, and 4 seconds if immobilized is present. Exhaustion will now be applied when the dodge is initiated.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Note: _Exhaustion will now be applied when the dodge is initiated._

> > > > > > > Meaning: **Only one stack of Exhaustion per dodge.**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If immob, then Exhaust = 4s

> > > > > > > Else if chilled, then Exhaust = 3s

> > > > > > > Else if crippled, then Exhaust = 2s

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Removing all three CCs in a single dodge will not give you 3 stacks. It only applies the longest duration per dodge. So if you have all three CCs, you only get 4s of Exhaustion.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The stacking happens when you break CC every dodge within the duration. Example, if you break an Immob, you get 4s Exhaust. Then 2s later you broke another Immob, then you get another 4s. Since only 2s had passed, you will now have 2 stacks of Exhaustion that will expire in 6s, which is a total Exhaustion time of 8s. Since DD has a 3rd dodge, you can stack another Exhaustion if you break another Immob. Your total Exhaustion time will be 12s -- that is 12s without Endurance regen. Then you'll have to wait for Endurance to regen normally which is roughly 30s (without Vigor, 15s with Vigor) for a total Endurance denial of ~42s.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Just as someone mentioned before, this is an extreme case.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Problem is it's not that extreme and now that exhaustion stacks people will know to keep loading up the thief with cripple/chilled/immobilise to keep the daredevil locked out of endurance regeneration forever. In fact in situations where people have lots of access to any of those conditions every dash can stack more exhaustion on you 3 times for more total endurance regeneration shutdown than before. As usual this is Arenanet's attempt to buff thief but in reality it's a nerf.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The best thing about Daredevil is that you can spec for Brawlers and gain Endurance by using Physical skills. Steal also gives Endurance. You can also bring Signet of Agility if it worries you that much.

> > > > >

> > > > > The fact is, you have a choice whether to take Exhaustion or not. You don't have to break every CC. So it's very unlikely and a bit exaggerated that you will be locked out of endurance forever.

> > > > >

> > > > > And if you don't like Exhaustion, you can spec for Acrobatics and take Don't Stop.

> > > >

> > > > Funny you say that because I did some research and guess what I found out?

> > > >

> > > > Exhaustion will now be applied when the dodge is initiated.

> > > >

> > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unhindered_Combatant

> > > >

> > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Expeditious_Dodger

> > > >

> > > > In both patch notes it says: Swiftness granted by this trait will now occur at the end of the dodge.

> > > >

> > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Don%27t_Stop

> > > >

> > > > Because Don't stop removes conditions on gaining swiftness and exhaustion is applied at the beginning of the dodge while swiftness is gained at the end of the dodge that means it will never remove the conditions before exhaustion is applied.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Typical coming from someone who don't play a Thief. Use Don't Stop instead of Unhindered -- I thought that was a given.

> >

> > Played a thief for years and don't anymore...But it's ok I can take the ad hominem since that's all you've got left.

> >

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60710/my-story-of-permanent-stealth-deadeye#latest

>

> It's not an _ad hom_ if the generalization is true which you have just proven by admitting that you don't play Thief anymore. Most people who misunderstand the choices provided to the Thief are typically those who don't play Thief. I have been very clear that if you don't like the Exhaustion, you have a choice to take Don't Stop. Also if you don't like Exhaustion, it's fairly obvious that you should not take the Unhindered trait.

>

> EDIT: fixed

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"getalifeturd.8139" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"getalifeturd.8139" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > @"getalifeturd.8139" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Safandula.8723" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > ha!

> > > > > > > > > > > > .......

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Your suggestion was good but it necessitate a stacking effect, so meh.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > More than meh. The possibility of 9 seconds of exhaustion from a single dodge is not worth the 2 from cripple.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 1 dodge can apply max of 4s of exhaust, the problem is if u dodge to break immob, than get immobilized and dodge again, than it can summ up to 12 s, but these are extreme situations.

> > > > > > > > > i dont rly get the change to exhaustion stacking, its just stupid.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If you have 3 different Movement impairing conditions UC will clear all of them and stack Exhaustion.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Patch notes:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Exhaustion: This effect now stacks in duration up to 3 times.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Unhindered Combatant: The duration of exhaustion that this trait applies when dodging is now 2 seconds if crippled is present, 3 seconds if chilled is present, and 4 seconds if immobilized is present. Exhaustion will now be applied when the dodge is initiated.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Note: _Exhaustion will now be applied when the dodge is initiated._

> > > > > > > Meaning: **Only one stack of Exhaustion per dodge.**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If immob, then Exhaust = 4s

> > > > > > > Else if chilled, then Exhaust = 3s

> > > > > > > Else if crippled, then Exhaust = 2s

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Removing all three CCs in a single dodge will not give you 3 stacks. It only applies the longest duration per dodge. So if you have all three CCs, you only get 4s of Exhaustion.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The stacking happens when you break CC every dodge within the duration. Example, if you break an Immob, you get 4s Exhaust. Then 2s later you broke another Immob, then you get another 4s. Since only 2s had passed, you will now have 2 stacks of Exhaustion that will expire in 6s, which is a total Exhaustion time of 8s. Since DD has a 3rd dodge, you can stack another Exhaustion if you break another Immob. Your total Exhaustion time will be 12s -- that is 12s without Endurance regen. Then you'll have to wait for Endurance to regen normally which is roughly 30s (without Vigor, 15s with Vigor) for a total Endurance denial of ~42s.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Just as someone mentioned before, this is an extreme case.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Problem is it's not that extreme and now that exhaustion stacks people will know to keep loading up the thief with cripple/chilled/immobilise to keep the daredevil locked out of endurance regeneration forever. In fact in situations where people have lots of access to any of those conditions every dash can stack more exhaustion on you 3 times for more total endurance regeneration shutdown than before. As usual this is Arenanet's attempt to buff thief but in reality it's a nerf.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The best thing about Daredevil is that you can spec for Brawlers and gain Endurance by using Physical skills. Steal also gives Endurance. You can also bring Signet of Agility if it worries you that much.

> > > > >

> > > > > The fact is, you have a choice whether to take Exhaustion or not. You don't have to break every CC. So it's very unlikely and a bit exaggerated that you will be locked out of endurance forever.

> > > > >

> > > > > And if you don't like Exhaustion, you can spec for Acrobatics and take Don't Stop.

> > > >

> > > > Funny you say that because I did some research and guess what I found out?

> > > >

> > > > Exhaustion will now be applied when the dodge is initiated.

> > > >

> > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unhindered_Combatant

> > > >

> > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Expeditious_Dodger

> > > >

> > > > In both patch notes it says: Swiftness granted by this trait will now occur at the end of the dodge.

> > > >

> > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Don%27t_Stop

> > > >

> > > > Because Don't stop removes conditions on gaining swiftness and exhaustion is applied at the beginning of the dodge while swiftness is gained at the end of the dodge that means it will never remove the conditions before exhaustion is applied.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Typical coming from someone who don't play a Thief. Use Don't Stop instead of Unhindered -- I thought that was a given.

> >

> > Played a thief for years and don't anymore...But it's ok I can take the ad hominem since that's all you've got left.

> >

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60710/my-story-of-permanent-stealth-deadeye#latest

>

> It's not an _ad hom_ if the generalization is true which you have just proven by admitting that you don't play Thief anymore. Most people who misunderstand the choices provided to the Thief are typically those who don't play Thief. I have been very clear that if you don't like the Exhaustion, you have a choice to take Don't Stop. Also if you don't like Exhaustion, it's fairly obvious that you should not take the Unhindered trait.

>

> EDIT: fixed

The fact that you're being punished for using one of your only means of protecting yourself as a thief should give anyone pause.

> @"MakubeC.3026" said:

> What is this Marked stealth mechanic you're talking about? Never heard of it.

No seriously, wtd are yall talking about?

> @"killy.3278" said:

> > @"syszery.1592" said:

> > If you land the chill it is actually quite punishing for an Ele if he cannot cleanse it.

>

> It's basically 10s of cripple and +4s for anything that's currently on >10s CD. Both of which are certainly better than nothing, but doesn't compliment either d/p or s/d (or even condi builds). Slowed movement doesn't add much, as core thief already have plenty of other ways to deal with kiting. The CD increase is nice, but not enough of an effect to mount to anything significant imo.

You might be severely undervaluing someone who's movement speed is massively dropped.

1. You're constantly pressuring them. You can bob out of their attacks, and come back in. But they can't do the same for you.

2. If they try to run, you will catch them very quickly regardless of whats on cool down.

3. When going for a backstab, they can't move around very quickly to throw off your stab and force the 1sec cool down timer.

> @"derd.6413" said:

> honestly i doubt you could balance this skill properly. personally i would make it bullet spread (fire in a cone)

Dual Pistols is a burst weapon set. So, as it stands, it's pretty balanced given how many abilities other professions have to mitigate damage, or to close the gap.

If balance really is needed, then you can do a swap after the full volley lands.

Coup De Grace: After landing the full volley of Unload, unload swaps to this skill. This skill fires a single hard hitting bullet that launches the foe back.

> @"syszery.1592" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"syszery.1592" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > Binding Shadow can actually be stopped. And it requires line of sight. If the player recognizes the animation on the de- they can outright avoid it with a dodge, line of sight, or aegis. As it stands theres no other tell which is actually a problem. The opponent should have a clear indication that hes about to go down so he has a chance. It does not need to be for the full duration. But a quick animation of a gust of shadow magic swarming the target at the last second should be enough.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Basilisk venom is completely unblockable, does not get expended if the target dodges, and can be used at all ranges as long as you deal power damage. It even works with DE mark/mug combo. Previously it was utterly useless. Now its one of the thiefs strongest utilities. As its one of two options a thief has to break through a targets defense. **The other being S/d which is not a popular weapon set for some pretty good reasons.**

> > > >

> > > > The basilisk venom also has venom share, which is a critical property in PvP and PvE. A roaming thief can actually dive in, pop basilisk venom, and spontaneously give his group a huge advantage in a single second. More so if they went aupport build with leeching venoms.

> > >

> > > Ehm, are we playing the same game?

> >

> > It's accurate. S/D is popular for Core, not for DE. You just can't replace the synergy of DA/Acr/Trick when using S/D. You just can't.

>

> I know; S/D is meta in sPvP and very common in WvW. I was just wondering if the other guy who claimed it "is not a popular weapon set for some pretty good reasons" is actually serious -- but maybe he meant PvE...

>

> Edit: Ok, I got your point. You mean he is referring to S/D as weapons set for Deadeyes? Yes, then he is right although it can be situationally good... But it is really uncommon :dizzy:

It's not popular on DE. I figured we could assume this is in reference to the DE, since Binding Shadow is the topic. I should have made this distinction a bit more clear.

Damage outlut is way too high. Content that used to be difficult is now easy.

A lot of technical bits of the game have basically been circumvented with more professions having more ways to shake them off.

In GW2 atealth is the thiefs first line of defense. You have limited access when you break it. But you have a lot of ways to re enter. Its just not a good idea to constantly enter stealth (if you are not a de anyways...) As you will primarily use it to break channeling attacks or locks.

> @"Trogmar.9172" said:

> I want to play a ranged character and I herd the deadeye is what I'm looking for. unfortunately I dont own the expansions and won't for a bit of time. what's a good build to run using the core game that's got some range to it while level and wait to get expansions? I'm a newer player and new to forums here so sorry if I formatted this wrong.

There is the condi shortbow builds for core thief.

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"spectrito.8513" said:

> > right clicking people to death from stealth with no tell is not fun

>

> Stealth is your tell. ;)

>

> That's a big telegraph that says, "amma staaab u now!"

Yeeaaaah. I mean if you sit still and let the thief stab you, you got other problems than what you think is fair.

> @"Xenji.4907" said:

> .... wow... You should post it in the "Bugs: Game, Forum, Website" sub too. Lol I don't think Dev are checking thief sub forums anymore. If they do then they are not happy what goes on in the thief sub here. Especially with that nerf to Lead Attacks was especially for DE!!

Of course they aren't reading our boards anymore. They are too busy grooming the mesmer.

Binding Shadow can actually be stopped. And it requires line of sight. If the player recognizes the animation on the de- they can outright avoid it with a dodge, line of sight, or aegis. As it stands theres no other tell which is actually a problem. The opponent should have a clear indication that hes about to go down so he has a chance. It does not need to be for the full duration. But a quick animation of a gust of shadow magic swarming the target at the last second should be enough.

Basilisk venom is completely unblockable, does not get expended if the target dodges, and can be used at all ranges as long as you deal power damage. It even works with DE mark/mug combo. Previously it was utterly useless. Now its one of the thiefs strongest utilities. As its one of two options a thief has to break through a targets defense. The other being S/d which is not a popular weapon set for some pretty good reasons.

The basilisk venom also has venom share, which is a critical property in PvP and PvE. A roaming thief can actually dive in, pop basilisk venom, and spontaneously give his group a huge advantage in a single second. More so if they went aupport build with leeching venoms.

That thief description about debilitating seems inaccurate with the small number of ways a thief can actually debilitate.

> @"Blixxis.6798" said:

> > @"Phosphorite.6192" said:

> > It's in there bc Leeching Venom is a damage mitigation trait, whereas Deadly Arts is a damage-oriented line. It simply wouldn't make sense to have it there. It's much more in line with a sustain line like shadow arts.

>

> What you say makes complete sense but there is not any other supporting traits for Venoms in Shadow Arts. That is why I say poorly planned. The trait should either be moved, dropped. They could add new traits in Shadow Arts that support a condi based damage mitigation build but even the minor traits in Shadow Arts negate the use of this specialization in a condi build .

>

> From the wiki "Shadow Arts is a core specialization for the thief that focuses on survival, defensive abilities, and stealth." and out 12 traits 10 are directly related to stealth. 1 Venom and 1 related to reducing cooldown of Deception skills which include stealth so you could consider that 11. Its a dead trait.

It's in the quote you pulled. Leeching Venoms is a Survival ability. It's not a dead trait, and it does actually see use. Not as much as I'd personally like however, due to most armor for healing power has very little synergy with Thief's stats.

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > > Also, I doubt they were seriously in stealth the entire time. You can see nearly everything a thief does when they try to stack stealth. The only one you can't is the Elite Skill, and even then that thing is on a cooler before the stealth is up. One of the thieves has dual daggers, so he can't use the Dagger Pistol's method. Which means he'd need to use Blinding Powder (which would be hard to spot), Or Shadow Refuge, which you can see as a big kitten marker for a while, or Shadow Gust which is another one you can see. More than likely they were hiding below the cliffs. Which thief can climb very quickly.

> > >

> > > you can see the elites red animation. you cannot see silent scope, you cannot see hidden thief when not cast on you, you cannot see stolen skills. you can use stolen skills while obstructed/out of range to get the stealth without hitting, therefor not getting revealed. especially when in combat to use energy sigil and having a mob by you can permastealth without visual indicator, doesnt mean that those 2 were doing it tho. (actually its pretty unlikely they were doing it as there was nobody around specifically looking for signs)

> >

> > Actually you can see stolen skills. They all place a condition on you :P. But... most folks don't really pay attention to their bars. But you're right, you can't see a visible animation for it.

>

> uhm. no you cant see them.

> see if i use a stolen skill while i already am in stealth and want to retain stealth, then i will make sure my target is obstructed or not targeted and out of range. then it wont hit the target and wont inflict a condition, but it will grant stealth. (or use a wall that wont get damage/condition anyway, you can also 'hit' the hit box of a wall to gain malice towards it without getting visible)

Jeeze man, it was a small joke. Though I hadn't actually thought about obstructing the player's view for the stealth alone.

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> Gosh..I think getting ganked like this would discourage many people. How could this company allow this kind of gameplay? On what level is this considere even the least bit okay?

You must think that a thief, or any rogue class is supposed to fight fair. If so, and you some how think Thief is unfair, you should have seen what the Rogue in WoW did in the early days.

But as many people mentioned, this was the players own fault, twice over.

> @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > Also, I doubt they were seriously in stealth the entire time. You can see nearly everything a thief does when they try to stack stealth. The only one you can't is the Elite Skill, and even then that thing is on a cooler before the stealth is up. One of the thieves has dual daggers, so he can't use the Dagger Pistol's method. Which means he'd need to use Blinding Powder (which would be hard to spot), Or Shadow Refuge, which you can see as a big kitten marker for a while, or Shadow Gust which is another one you can see. More than likely they were hiding below the cliffs. Which thief can climb very quickly.

>

> you can see the elites red animation. you cannot see silent scope, you cannot see hidden thief when not cast on you, you cannot see stolen skills. you can use stolen skills while obstructed/out of range to get the stealth without hitting, therefor not getting revealed. especially when in combat to use energy sigil and having a mob by you can permastealth without visual indicator, doesnt mean that those 2 were doing it tho. (actually its pretty unlikely they were doing it as there was nobody around specifically looking for signs)

Actually you can see stolen skills. They all place a condition on you :P. But... most folks don't really pay attention to their bars. But you're right, you can't see a visible animation for it.

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> > Oh interesting. Thanks! Surprised to see such an rng thing in gw2!

>

> Unfortunately this RNG also means that a skill type that's not even equipped can be "recharged."

I'd call it a bug... but fixing it would immediately make the trait busted as all hell.

> @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> > > Sorry guys I was banned for 3 days for posting profanities in my post zzzz.

> > >

> > > But yeah at the end of the day the permanent the stealth aspect is what is unfun. I shouldn't have to permanently have to run durability runes or whatever for the fear of one elite spec EXISTING on the same map as me; that's ridiculous.

> > >

> > > If they have permastealth they should have way less damage on an ability with literally zero tell.

> >

> > Everyone else has to take their matchup and map activity into account when they consider their stats and build. Don't run durability runes if you don't like the feel of your build when you use them.

> >

> > It's not just that ability alone hitting you suddenly.

> >

> > I'm not arguing for or against anything.

>

> Did you see the video though? Malicious back stab literally deleted me. It either one shot me or did 95%+ of my damage in one hit. Sure you can argue that "oh you should have paid attention to the people standing in your spawn as an indicator of something going on" but that was only for spawn camping. Imagine out on the map when there is no visualization of dead eye being anywhere just boom dead.

>

>

> It's simply not fun. It really isn't. And if it continues people will quit the game over it. Even I logged off for that day and was like an screw this I ain't dealing with this stupid kitten.

Malicious Backstab was never procked. You were not marked once in the video. You were simply Back stabbed with an Assassin's Signet. Which Anet buffed to try and return Thief's single target damage. But few people use it outside of these sorts of builds.

Also, I doubt they were seriously in stealth the entire time. You can see nearly everything a thief does when they try to stack stealth. The only one you can't is the Elite Skill, and even then that thing is on a cooler before the stealth is up. One of the thieves has dual daggers, so he can't use the Dagger Pistol's method. Which means he'd need to use Blinding Powder (which would be hard to spot), Or Shadow Refuge, which you can see as a big ass marker for a while, or Shadow Gust which is another one you can see. More than likely they were hiding below the cliffs. Which thief can climb very quickly.

Anyways, this is what happens when you build glassy. A thief - doesn't matter if deadeye, core, or daredevil, will wreck you before you can act.

But anyways. Welcome to fighting thieves. This is how a thief fights. Hit hard, fast, and be dirty. Because with all the shit ANET did to us, being up front about anything is a sure fire way to get killed.

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > Remove, no. Revamp a little with more regard to having to commit (or not, but having to commit to not committing, as weird as that sounds - yes).

> > >

> > > I'm fine with thieves having the opening shot/stab/whatever and starting out in stealth, even utilizing stealth throughout the fight, but they should not be in a constant state of being able to reset with near zero ability of their opponent to influence that.

> > >

> > > Anet needs to take a good, long look at

> > > 1) How thief initiates fights

> > > 2) How long they can spend in the fight, can they pull off a kill, and if so what do they use to survive and what do they use to pull off the kill

> > > 3) Their chances of being able to withdraw/reset depending on how long the fight has been going on, and how their chances for survival in the fight itself vary based on their utilizing of resources that would otherwise be used to retreat.

> > >

> > > And last - but more important - 4) How much interaction does the opponent have with the thief's defenses?

> > >

> > > No.4 is, I feel, what makes stealth so un-fun to play against. The thief's opponent doesn't really get to have any solid interaction/back and forth with the stealth itself, beyond swinging wildly wherever they assume the thief was, and that's...tbh, utter garbage gameplay.

> >

> > What defenses? It amounts to stealthing, running, blinds, interrupts, and dodges. With stealth, running, and dodge being the main ones.

> >

> > I wouldn't mind stealth being a little more difficult for thief to access, if they got something in return.

> >

> > But as it stands, we are supposed to be dirty bastards and opportunist. I dont want to fight a warrior fairly. I want him to get mad at the idea that he cant hit me.

>

> I'm not sure what you're getting at. You answered your own question - stealth, running, blinds, and interrupts (dodges too, but I don't count those as everyone has the base number of dodges, and those already have class-wide play and counterplay in the form of vigor, immobs or w/e)

Im being flippant. All but stealth are something that other classes are able yo do. So theres nothing really unique other than stealth.

Thats what I am pointing out. The interactions against their defense is the same as everyone else. They can't spontaneously become immune to damage, generate ageis, super speed, or what ever. They have no unique buffs, and regeneration is nearly wasted on them as there are no healing power builds with good interactions foe thief.

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> Remove, no. Revamp a little with more regard to having to commit (or not, but having to commit to not committing, as weird as that sounds - yes).

>

> I'm fine with thieves having the opening shot/stab/whatever and starting out in stealth, even utilizing stealth throughout the fight, but they should not be in a constant state of being able to reset with near zero ability of their opponent to influence that.

>

> Anet needs to take a good, long look at

> 1) How thief initiates fights

> 2) How long they can spend in the fight, can they pull off a kill, and if so what do they use to survive and what do they use to pull off the kill

> 3) Their chances of being able to withdraw/reset depending on how long the fight has been going on, and how their chances for survival in the fight itself vary based on their utilizing of resources that would otherwise be used to retreat.

>

> And last - but more important - 4) How much interaction does the opponent have with the thief's defenses?

>

> No.4 is, I feel, what makes stealth so un-fun to play against. The thief's opponent doesn't really get to have any solid interaction/back and forth with the stealth itself, beyond swinging wildly wherever they assume the thief was, and that's...tbh, utter garbage gameplay.

What defenses? It amounts to stealthing, running, blinds, interrupts, and dodges. With stealth, running, and dodge being the main ones.

I wouldn't mind stealth being a little more difficult for thief to access, if they got something in return.

But as it stands, we are supposed to be dirty bastards and opportunist. I dont want to fight a warrior fairly. I want him to get mad at the idea that he cant hit me.

The rifle has been dumpstered. But thats about it.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Haha not a chance,thieves have a slight advantage with infiltrate arrows when comes to running away but mirage in particular have 5 times the evade frames in combat that’s less counterable compared to vault and bound dodge spam.mirage has insane in combat evades mobility and can reset almost as easy as thief between blink, jaunt and stealth utilities combined with evade frames on dodge somtime easier to escape as mesmer

I dont think thats what this discussion is about