Kuma.1503

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > can we also get free " remove power damage taken " button? like a dodge but it goes back in time to remove the kitten up you made? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Continuum_Split

> @"wevh.2903" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > > > > Also about having 3000 options but only some of them viable , ofc this is like nature , options which adapts better to the specific winner condition will be always better , no matter how much options you have . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I said this earlier already but heterogenous systems will always have an optimal path to get to the most complex state. Nature is no different. But nature doesn't design for creatures to have a role to play... the creatures themselves are what go about trying to adapt to their environment and assort information to their advantage, again in an attempt to race toward the most optimal path. A game shouldn't design this FOR you, it's the other way around, where the roles are created from the variety of builds that exist. If you design for a creature to have a single role, the creature will optimize it's path for that role you created, and it reduces the number of optimal paths to just that single path. > > > > > > > > > > > > In the case of Necromancer and the Rune of Speed, a player will by virtue of the above principle will always seek to optimize their build. If speed is what they lack, they will eventually find the choice that allows them to better adapt, and if that option happens to be Rune of Speed then they will do just that. Rune of Speed can then really be any other choice because it will not matter what you design, we will by default find the most optimal choices eventually. That's why this idea of designing around roles is silly at best and its not a surprise why we have a stale meta game now. If it's not Rune of Speed it will be some other Rune...if it's not Onslaught, it will be some other trait...and this process will continue indefinitely as you change, remove or add options. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why the key to understanding how to prevent stale meta games and bad diversity is by increasing the optimal computation time, and you do this via understanding how to apply complexity theory to help solve that problem. This is how nature does this as well (obviously) since there are trillions...if not an near infinite amount of possibilities for different species to exist, nature has taken over 4 billion (13.7 billion maybe) years to get to the point where we are at now...and where we are now some would argue that we aren't in the final stages of evolutionary complexity but have merely scratched the surface. > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is that the game has basically reached it's maximum complexity. People have figured out the most optimal strategies. Designing for roles EXPIDITED this process. > > > > > > > > > > Completely not true , if they fix rune of speed there is not other way for necro to win movility , necromancer is not a product of random combinations like life , Necro has wurm , spectral walk , scourge portal shroud skill 2 and rune of speed as movility bost , there is no other way necro can win movility cuz there wont be a random generated trait . There is not other rune apart from trapper rune wich gives that strong 6th stat and everyone with a lit knowledge on pvp knows this rune was a big mistake and a very bad design . If you give necro high movility without a trade off then you are UNBALANCING the game , can necro has more access to movility? ok then made a spec that allows necro to shadow step with a trade off on aoe dmg and self sustain , otherwise ur unbalacnign the game > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I'm understanding his post correctly, he wasn't stating that Life or Speeed rune necro are the product of random combinations. He was stating that, in a system (game) in which many options exist, there will eventually come a point where players will find the most optimal option. > > > > > > > > In the case of Necro, players decided that the class already had good enough damage, sustain, and tankiness as a baseline, but their lack of mobility was limiting their ability to apply that damage. An inability to kite was resulting in them taking more damage, resulting in lower durability than what one would assume on paper. > > > > > > > > Players realized that speed rune allowed Necro to patch up that weakness. A result of the meta shaping itself, rather than the developers directly influencing it. > > > > > > > > I believe what he's advocating for are more options which have the potential to interact with other options, creating an exponential number of possibilities. If we were to achieve that goal, it would (theoretically) be much more difficult to determine what the optimal path would be, resulting in more instances of the meta shaping itself. In other words, players could simply adapt to whatever outlier appeared in the meta and there would be little need for constant developer intervention. > > > > > > The point is that weakness is what makes the class balanced , the rune is a completely bad design issue. More choices doenst make game more fun , a balanced game by this way doenst make a better pvp game . > > > > You have a point. If a class is balanced around a particular flaw and you remove that flaw, the class becomes imbalanced. Why would any respectable dev willingly introduce such an obvious abuse case into their game? > > > > We're not factoring in opportunity cost. > > > > First, you must consider that Necro, as a baseline, has poor chase potential. > > Next, consider that your rune of choice comes with a significant gameplay impact. Reaper with dolyak rune is going to be significantly tankier than reaper with eagle rune. > > Finally, consider the opportunity cost that comes with using a rune to offset your class's intended weakness. > > > > What you get is a more well rounded class. You've smoothed out your flaws, but you're also not building towards your strengths as much as you could be. > > > > If you ran Eagle run instead of speed, you would deal significantly more damage due to more consistent crits and higher crit damage. If you ran rune of resistance, you would be significantly more durable against damage from both ends of the spectrum. A reaper with speed rune sacrifices both damage and tankiness. > > > > It's a bit like a bird with hollow bones. Its hollow bones allow it to fly with ease, but it comes at a cost because a bird's bones are significantly more fragile than most flightless mammals. > > > > A bird could evolve to patch up this "weakness" by developing solid bones, but it may not be able to fly as well. > > you dont sacrify that much dmg special in reaper for a 66% movility bost ,. Literally necroand renegade literally the only two classes wich doenst lose almost anything by equipping speed runes. Necro already have wurm/ spectral walk for movility and ofc it doenst have chase potential , if necro has chase potential then recall it revenant xD . Also nec may have no chase potential but it has biggest access to chill/cripple uptime in the whole game. > > Every class wich has chase potential is worse than nec in a equal fight scenario , power rev/ tempest would had a lost matchup vs a necro/tempest in a "same skill" scenario . > > It is not a flow , necro shines in determined scenarios , it is the BEST team fight class cuz it has big self sustain / aoe/ utility .3v3 and 2v2 seassons showed it perfectly . Necros being able to outrun some preffesions its just disgusting . If you don't think you're sacrificing much damage by running speed runes, you've never experienced glass reaper dps. It's a night and day difference.

> @"wevh.2903" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > > Also about having 3000 options but only some of them viable , ofc this is like nature , options which adapts better to the specific winner condition will be always better , no matter how much options you have . > > > > > > > > > > > > > I said this earlier already but heterogenous systems will always have an optimal path to get to the most complex state. Nature is no different. But nature doesn't design for creatures to have a role to play... the creatures themselves are what go about trying to adapt to their environment and assort information to their advantage, again in an attempt to race toward the most optimal path. A game shouldn't design this FOR you, it's the other way around, where the roles are created from the variety of builds that exist. If you design for a creature to have a single role, the creature will optimize it's path for that role you created, and it reduces the number of optimal paths to just that single path. > > > > > > > > In the case of Necromancer and the Rune of Speed, a player will by virtue of the above principle will always seek to optimize their build. If speed is what they lack, they will eventually find the choice that allows them to better adapt, and if that option happens to be Rune of Speed then they will do just that. Rune of Speed can then really be any other choice because it will not matter what you design, we will by default find the most optimal choices eventually. That's why this idea of designing around roles is silly at best and its not a surprise why we have a stale meta game now. If it's not Rune of Speed it will be some other Rune...if it's not Onslaught, it will be some other trait...and this process will continue indefinitely as you change, remove or add options. > > > > > > > > This is why the key to understanding how to prevent stale meta games and bad diversity is by increasing the optimal computation time, and you do this via understanding how to apply complexity theory to help solve that problem. This is how nature does this as well (obviously) since there are trillions...if not an near infinite amount of possibilities for different species to exist, nature has taken over 4 billion (13.7 billion maybe) years to get to the point where we are at now...and where we are now some would argue that we aren't in the final stages of evolutionary complexity but have merely scratched the surface. > > > > > > > > The point is that the game has basically reached it's maximum complexity. People have figured out the most optimal strategies. Designing for roles EXPIDITED this process. > > > > > > Completely not true , if they fix rune of speed there is not other way for necro to win movility , necromancer is not a product of random combinations like life , Necro has wurm , spectral walk , scourge portal shroud skill 2 and rune of speed as movility bost , there is no other way necro can win movility cuz there wont be a random generated trait . There is not other rune apart from trapper rune wich gives that strong 6th stat and everyone with a lit knowledge on pvp knows this rune was a big mistake and a very bad design . If you give necro high movility without a trade off then you are UNBALANCING the game , can necro has more access to movility? ok then made a spec that allows necro to shadow step with a trade off on aoe dmg and self sustain , otherwise ur unbalacnign the game > > > > > > > If I'm understanding his post correctly, he wasn't stating that Life or Speeed rune necro are the product of random combinations. He was stating that, in a system (game) in which many options exist, there will eventually come a point where players will find the most optimal option. > > > > In the case of Necro, players decided that the class already had good enough damage, sustain, and tankiness as a baseline, but their lack of mobility was limiting their ability to apply that damage. An inability to kite was resulting in them taking more damage, resulting in lower durability than what one would assume on paper. > > > > Players realized that speed rune allowed Necro to patch up that weakness. A result of the meta shaping itself, rather than the developers directly influencing it. > > > > I believe what he's advocating for are more options which have the potential to interact with other options, creating an exponential number of possibilities. If we were to achieve that goal, it would (theoretically) be much more difficult to determine what the optimal path would be, resulting in more instances of the meta shaping itself. In other words, players could simply adapt to whatever outlier appeared in the meta and there would be little need for constant developer intervention. > > The point is that weakness is what makes the class balanced , the rune is a completely bad design issue. More choices doenst make game more fun , a balanced game by this way doenst make a better pvp game . You have a point. If a class is balanced around a particular flaw and you remove that flaw, the class becomes imbalanced. Why would any respectable dev willingly introduce such an obvious abuse case into their game? We're not factoring in opportunity cost. First, you must consider that Necro, as a baseline, has poor chase potential. Next, consider that your rune of choice comes with a significant gameplay impact. Reaper with dolyak rune is going to be significantly tankier than reaper with eagle rune. Finally, consider the opportunity cost that comes with using a rune to offset your class's intended weakness. What you get is a more well rounded class. You've smoothed out your flaws, but you're also not building towards your strengths as much as you could be. If you ran Eagle run instead of speed, you would deal significantly more damage due to more consistent crits and higher crit damage. If you ran rune of resistance, you would be significantly more durable against damage from both ends of the spectrum. A reaper with speed rune sacrifices both damage and tankiness. It's a bit like a bird with hollow bones. Its hollow bones allow it to fly with ease, but it comes at a cost because a bird's bones are significantly more fragile than most flightless mammals. A bird could evolve to patch up this "weakness" by developing solid bones, but it may not be able to fly as well.

> @"wevh.2903" said: > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > Also about having 3000 options but only some of them viable , ofc this is like nature , options which adapts better to the specific winner condition will be always better , no matter how much options you have . > > > > > > > I said this earlier already but heterogenous systems will always have an optimal path to get to the most complex state. Nature is no different. But nature doesn't design for creatures to have a role to play... the creatures themselves are what go about trying to adapt to their environment and assort information to their advantage, again in an attempt to race toward the most optimal path. A game shouldn't design this FOR you, it's the other way around, where the roles are created from the variety of builds that exist. If you design for a creature to have a single role, the creature will optimize it's path for that role you created, and it reduces the number of optimal paths to just that single path. > > > > In the case of Necromancer and the Rune of Speed, a player will by virtue of the above principle will always seek to optimize their build. If speed is what they lack, they will eventually find the choice that allows them to better adapt, and if that option happens to be Rune of Speed then they will do just that. Rune of Speed can then really be any other choice because it will not matter what you design, we will by default find the most optimal choices eventually. That's why this idea of designing around roles is silly at best and its not a surprise why we have a stale meta game now. If it's not Rune of Speed it will be some other Rune...if it's not Onslaught, it will be some other trait...and this process will continue indefinitely as you change, remove or add options. > > > > This is why the key to understanding how to prevent stale meta games and bad diversity is by increasing the optimal computation time, and you do this via understanding how to apply complexity theory to help solve that problem. This is how nature does this as well (obviously) since there are trillions...if not an near infinite amount of possibilities for different species to exist, nature has taken over 4 billion (13.7 billion maybe) years to get to the point where we are at now...and where we are now some would argue that we aren't in the final stages of evolutionary complexity but have merely scratched the surface. > > > > The point is that the game has basically reached it's maximum complexity. People have figured out the most optimal strategies. Designing for roles EXPIDITED this process. > > Completely not true , if they fix rune of speed there is not other way for necro to win movility , necromancer is not a product of random combinations like life , Necro has wurm , spectral walk , scourge portal shroud skill 2 and rune of speed as movility bost , there is no other way necro can win movility cuz there wont be a random generated trait . There is not other rune apart from trapper rune wich gives that strong 6th stat and everyone with a lit knowledge on pvp knows this rune was a big mistake and a very bad design . If you give necro high movility without a trade off then you are UNBALANCING the game , can necro has more access to movility? ok then made a spec that allows necro to shadow step with a trade off on aoe dmg and self sustain , otherwise ur unbalacnign the game > If I'm understanding his post correctly, he wasn't stating that Life or Speeed rune necro are the product of random combinations. He was stating that, in a system (game) in which many options exist, there will eventually come a point where players will find the most optimal option. In the case of Necro, players decided that the class already had good enough damage, sustain, and tankiness as a baseline, but their lack of mobility was limiting their ability to apply that damage. An inability to kite was resulting in them taking more damage, resulting in lower durability than what one would assume on paper. Players realized that speed rune allowed Necro to patch up that weakness. A result of the meta shaping itself, rather than the developers directly influencing it. I believe what he's advocating for are more options which have the potential to interact with other options, creating an exponential number of possibilities. If we were to achieve that goal, it would (theoretically) be much more difficult to determine what the optimal path would be, resulting in more instances of the meta shaping itself. In other words, players could simply adapt to whatever outlier appeared in the meta and there would be little need for constant developer intervention.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > an ex-Ele main who's been on a year-long search of a new class to call home. > > everyone who leaves their main chooses engi Why? Because it's meta? I was under the impression people avoided it because they didn't like their kits. Either way, it was the closest thing to Ele. Ele has their attunement swaps, engi has their kit swaps, but I'd probably have more success if I didn't handicap myself by playing core.

A simple solution would slightly buff cleansing sigil. Condis cleansed 1 >> 2 Might at least help you get rid of a few cover condis before you burn your main cleanse. Not saying that's what they should do. Just a simple easy to implement solution should they go that route.

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"Swagger.1459" said: > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" > > > > Weapons are a very interesting topic for me. Now I don’t fully agree with the assessments of the OP, but I’m definitely interested to know more about how exactly you would apply science to fix underperforming weapon skills so we can improve build diversity in pvp modes! What specifics can you share? > > > > Edit- Let’s go down the line here... Can you please identify the lesser used and underperforming weapons and give some recommendations as to what should be improved so they are more widely used in the various profession builds? Because obviously the more viable weapons a profession has access to the more build diversity increases. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weapon > > You need to understand something first. You want specifics without even knowing how the fundamental part of it is supposed to work. Did you even read any of my comments? > > There are mechanics in the game that restrict diversity by simply being designed in such a way that restricts diversity. Before jumping the gun and applying Band-Aid fixes, you should really try and find the bullet in the bullet wound first. > > Now some good examples have already been provided by others here that actually read the comments and understood what was being said. If you go back and read the comments and try to understand and follow the logic, which I'm really trying to explain as simply as possibly can, I list out these mechanics that restrict that diversity. I then proceed to explain other mechanics that should exist on skills, like synergies, and other things I didn't mention like usefulness and uniqueness. Another one of these things I mentioned being tradeoff's, which I elaborate on in great detail on why the current trade-offs in the game aren't actual functioning trade-offs. > > I then provided examples of how such tradeoff's would work to self balance skills to prevent divergent, runaway behavior, and one of the commenters even gave a good example of skills that would work in this way. > > So what you want now are even more examples because you are trying to find a hole in the logic that you clearly did not bother to read nor understand, which you even admitted to. > > So please if you want this to be constructive, do me and everyone else here the courtesy to at least read and then understand the oppositions point before trying to attack it. > > Anyway, since you want specifics here's some ideas. > > Elementalist > 1) Trait : Powerful Aura > Aura's you grant to yourself are shared with a nearby allies. When an Aura ends, inflict 5 vulnerability to nearby enemies. > If you are inflicted with 25 vulnerability when an aura ends, that aura is refreshed. > > Staff Abilities (Water) > Staff 5 - Turn Vulnerability into Regeneration for allies and cleanse conditions. Enemies that are inside this field have vulnerability converted into healing for allies. > Staff 4 - Summon a field of Ice, chilling enemies. Allies with an aura are healed while inside this field. > Staff 3 - Place a geyser that resurrects fallen allies. Easily interrupted if you do not have a frost aura. > Staff 2 - Splash the ground to heal your allies, and detonating allies auras around you (blast finisher) > Staff 1 - Heal nearby allies for x healing, and inflict X stack of Vulnerability onto yourself for each ally you heal. At 25 stacks, Vulnerability is converted into a Frost Aura. > > Now I came up with these very quickly and on the fly. I'm sure if one were to spend more time, u could come up with all sorts of ideas for the rest of the weaponset, and other traits that you could make synergy's for. I artificially gave it the theme with vulnerability since Anet had that idea in mind when it came to water traitline...so ya there you go just an example of how adding synergies, and implementing equilibrium mechanics (actual tradeoffs) can make an entire weapon useful and dynamic in build crafting without making it imbalanced. > > The idea here is that > a) You want equilibrium mechanics...tradeoffs that prevent run-away divergent behavior. > b) Uniqueness and usefulness determines how interesting the actual mechanics of skills are and if they are good at achieving a goal, or number of goals in different ways. > c) Synergy...how many traits and abilities can synergize with not only other things but with itself....the more synergy you can create and uncover, the more interesting and complex the weapon becomes and in turn it becomes more useful. > d) Looking at just one weapon in the vacuum isn't enough to prove a point btw, since diversity is a global macroscopic thing that involves many things interacting with one another. If one were to create sleuths of useful weapons and abilities, then the number of builds that can be created that are useful increases, and due to the anthropic reasoning, outlier builds will statistically exist less often. > > > > I like this idea for staff. I'm a bit of a nerd for RP, and this got me thinking of how this might work thematically. While attuned to water, eles chill their foes, and heal their allies. But even as the water splashes onto you to heal your wounds, it chills your armor, making it more brittle. As they splash more water onto you, your armor eventually gets so cold that it emits a frosty aura. Cool stuff! (pun 100% intended) Adding on some ideas of my own. Perhaps Earth could play around with CC. Staff 2 - Unstable Ground - Create area of unstable ground that inflicts cripple on foes. Anyone who stands on the unstable ground loses 1 stack of stab per pulse becomes more susceptible to crowd control (this includes allies) increasing it's duration by 25%. After a delay, the ground collapses dealing damage and bleeding foes. Staff 3 - Mudslide - Unleash a torrent of mud, crippling and slowing foes and coating your allies in mud. If enemies are already crippled, they are instead immobilized. Allies hit are coated in mud, causing their next 3 attacks to inflict cripple and slow, but they also move 5% slower per stack of mud they have remaining. Staff 5 - Impale - After a delay, earthen spikes erupt from the ground, dealing damage, and crippling and bleeding foes. Spikes continue to erupt a total of 3 times with a delay in-between, each time inflicting greater damage and a longer cripple. Final eruption knocks up foes. Every eruption is a blast finisher.

> @"felix.2386" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > Hasn't Holo gotten nerfed in nearly every balance patch thus far? > > > > Just because the class refuses to die doesn't mean it hasn't been nerfed. > > did i say that they didn't receive nerf in the past? or is that something that matters in this topic? When someone says "When are we going to nerf X"? It implies that they're saying "why haven't you done this yet"? rather than "you need to do it again". It's equally my fault for interpreting your words wrong, but perhaps different wording would have gotten your point across better? Maybe something along the lines of "Holo and thief still overloaded". Either way, that's not important. I don't think nerfing Holo/thief is the answer. both are fun, challenging to master, it's rewarding, good amount of depth that distinguish good ones from bad ones (bad thiefs especially stand out). I'd rather not take the approach of "nerf it til it's dead", or simply not meta anymore. I'm looking at other classes, and mesmer is still in a bad place. Firebrand, druid, and scourge are all underperforming as supports, Ele has arguably been overnerfed and has one build which they can call competetive (and it's outclassed by Healbreaker), warrior has been nerfed so hard in the dps department that they're only useful as healers (which I'm sure warrior mains are not terribly happy with). First thing I'd do is tone down plasma so thief doesn't bully mesmer as hard Next thing I'd do is give mesmer some love so thief has some competition as a roamer/+1er I'd give firebrand **some** of it's boons back. Namely stab for allies so people can have fun in teamfights again without being rag doll'ed around. Also buff the healing of mantra of solace to something instead of nothing. I'd give warrior back some damage on their more telegraphed CCs. Effort/reward is not where it should be currently. I'd revert the cooldown nerf on celestial avatar (also undo pet nerf) so druids can gain back a bit of versatility, but I would also remove binding roots from the game entirely. It's buggy and obnoxious. Replace them with a single immob application that doesn't pulse. I'd give ele a health buff. 11k hp made since when ele had top tier damage and sustain as a trade off, but both have been nerfed. Let them have more base health so they're not pigeon-holed into +vitality amulets. Other builds like scrapper and scourge could also use some work, but I'm not sure what they need. Focus on fixing what isn't working instead of breaking what does.

Hasn't Holo gotten nerfed in nearly every balance patch thus far? Just because the class refuses to die doesn't mean it hasn't been nerfed.

> @"felix.2386" said: > i like how u skipped warrior because everysingle thing about warrior other then greatsword,shield,dagger are completely garbage > basically 4/5 weapons are garbage > other word, warrior has more trash weapon then all other classes' weapon combined including good weapons. I skipped warrior because I have single digit hours played on it :^)

> @"Widmo.3186" said: > > @"KeepinItReal.9086" said: > > > @"Widmo.3186" said: > > > I agree with OP, despite the fact that FA is also one-shot build like some others exisiting atm, but far easier to dodge/counterplay (compared to, for example, Malicious BS, kek) ofc if played without macros. > > > PS: > > > >I played every single build existed in this class, even those that were never used. > > > And then > > > >Why you insist to force people to use passive/ braindead playstyle like WATER weaver or FIRE WEAVER which both rely on conditions? > > > > > > Since when water weaver rely on conditions, lol? Water is power build, fire is condi build, please dont insult Mender/Avatar sword like that. > > > > The most played water build is Cellofrog's one, which relies on might stack and therfore burn abuse with decent dmg. > > It doesnt really matter, my point was they force you to abuse passive abilities / spam like builds, where you can make tons of mistakes and still survive. > > ?? Yes, Im talking about "Cellofrog build". You gain might stacks by rotating around attuns and blasting firefield from fire 2 and 4. You put burning on enemies mainly to make use of Firegrab or fire/fire 3, doubling the damage and making good spike against squishy targets or putting pressure vs bunkers. > Best proof is that Water version uses either Mender or Avatar amulet, none of them has any condi damage modifiers. > > About passive/spamlike builds I agree, but what left for ele when all other classes use similar builds? I wanted to make clear that Water Weaver main weapon is not condis, because I believe that all those nerfs and deleting Ele from meta is in 90% caused by Fireweaver, which actually uses condis as main damage and passive damage (Water also deals passive damage, but not so high amount as it does the Fire version). Weaver is weird. Even when you're built entirely power, it's not uncommon for burning to contribute a large portion of your damage (especially in PvE). I wouldn't be surprised if Water weaver did put out a good amount of burning damage pre-nerfs.

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"Jekkt.6045" said: > > It's often times not even that skills are useless but rather you can't take them because you need X skill/weapon just so you can stay alive. Weapons that used to be good are now essentially useless because they don't deliver the required numbers. For example, utility wise dagger offhand on ele is a great weapon. it has cc, mobility, healing, name it and you have it. but you can't take it because sustain damage is so ridiculously high you need an invul so you can have "room to breathe". Look at tempest right now, focus offhand, mist form and lightning flash are pretty much required just so you can stay alive. > > Here's the thing about this and i want you to follow the logic here so you can draw a different conclusion. I understand that the above is a valid observation, but in order to understand why the above observation happens, you have to be asking the right questions. > > The way you have to look at the game as a whole is as if it were a complex system...in which some parts have some interaction with other parts...like looking at a spider web. One thread in this spider web is a build that can be made that matches what you said in this quote. In this web there are other builds that will seek to either cooperate or compete with this build, and this is where player choice is introduced. > > If you were a super computer to determine which thread in this web is the most optimal decision, it would take you some period of time to figure that out. If you can calculate that the thread you have is not optimal, you will not use the build, or find some other configuration that is more optimal. These paths for finding optimality is what reduces the number of meaningful choices you have available to you. > > So the question here shouldn't be about what makes something good or bad to use...the question is about how to make this web more complex, so that finding out whether the build you are using has optimal choices becomes irrelevant rather than relevant. > > > > > How can you fix that? Not in a way that is feasible for arenanet. > > You either need to boost ele's core defense so you can take different utility skills, or buff all other weapons/skills to the same level. It's basically a horrible idea... > > ...So how can anet actually fix this without having to buff or rework most of the weapons? > > Now here's the other thing. This goes deeper into how understanding complexity theory can tell us how to approach these kinds of problems. I've discussed this in detail before, but essentially Buffs and nerfs do not work because in it's fundamentality it's a flawed procedure that doesn't make any real differences. I've explain why in this comment here https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1344346#Comment_1344346 . > > Once we understand that numerical balance changes are meaningless when considering the entirety of this "web" of balance, we can then move on to understanding that the only way to address these problems of diversity, and in turn it's balance (because turns out they are both basically the same thing) is by looking at mechanics and whether these mechanics create complexity. Alone Lava Font is a skill that features almost no complexity because it has very little interaction with any other skill or traits in the game...and the reason is not because of it's damage, or it's range, or it's speed... It's because of it's actual functions, and the function lacks synergy. > > So again this leads back to whether people are asking the right questions. By looking at the problem as "need to boost ele's core defense so you can take different utility skills" This will lead to other areas of the web, and just changing the optimal path from one path to another...and this doesn't solve the problem of diversity or balance, it just moves it around, which amounts to having no meaning based on what i linked above. > > > Nowadays too many skills are too bloated in what they do. Often times skills are just straight up utility+damage+healing which is horrible design. In that regard, removing damage from cc skills was kind of a good decision, just that no damage at all was a bit too much. > > Now yes over bloating is a bad design...this can also be explained, but I'm gonna try to keep it short and sweet. Essentially what the game lacks is actual tradeoffs. Now i want to explain that trade offs have a scientifically applicable definition, and that what Anet has implemented as "tradeoffs" are not real tradeoffs. > > In my previous comment i mentioned that Target Caps are part of the problem, that reduces the complexity of interactions in the game. This should have got you thinking a bit because it seems counter intuitive at first...how can it be possible that removing target caps give us more diversity and better balance? What happens if we had skills like "Backstab" that could hit 100 enemies...wouldn't that be overpowered? > > The answer lye in what's called "Equilibrium mechanics" aka real tradeoffs. We see these tradeoffs in science all the time, and it's essentially just functions that stop divergent behavior from becoming more divergent. The Stock Market is a perfect example of a system that functions off of unbounded mechanics (where stock price could potentially diverge in either direction infinitely...without bound), that on their own create equilibriums when the behavior of the system becomes more divergent (Supply and Demand...Overbought and Oversold triggering reversals in stock prices). These equilibrium mechanics also existed in some ways in guild wars 1, and were abandoned in before launch of guild wars 2... Where skills and abilities that do something should come with a cost, and this cost isn't a linear "tradeoff" like -300 vitality...These costs should be functions that stop divergent behavior. > > So we could look at the example of Backstab without a target cap... This skill in it's current form only works in 1v1 fights, as the target cap is a maximum of 1. Increase the target cap to 5, and it now becomes useful in teamfights (5v5 bracket) and in all brackets below that...from 2v2,3v3,4v4 etc...So now imagine this ability without a target cap against 100 people. Landing a Backstab becomes VERY valuable if it were to hit 100 people. So this behavior is called divergent behavior, where in this case, something becomes exponentially more useful the higher number of people you are fighting against. An equilibrium mechanic...or a true tradeoff, would be a mechanic that presents a cost, such that the higher number of targets there are when using this ability, the more of the cost you will incur. My favorite example to use is that, every time you land a backstab you apply 1 poison to yourself. In a 1v1 situation, applying 1 poison is low impact, and interesting tradeoff...but now if that backstab was used against an 80man zerg, well now, you have to face the consequence that if you used a backstab, you could get 80 stacks of poison with a single use. This is a REAL tradeoff that prevents divergent mechanics from taking off...which to your point, is how one should approach balancing of bloated skills. > > There's a lot more to point out in this subject area, but that's just one aspect about the quote I'm responding to in your post. > > > I agree with what you're saying. Removing target cap on abilities like fire bomb or meteor shower for example would make sense. If you and 5 other people stand inside of a flame, it's not magicaly going to stop hitting you because of the 5 other people. You're going to get burned. I think there should be a distinction between single target and AoE spells though. If nothing else, for rp reasons. It makes no sense for a backstab to hit 100 targets. You're stabbing one person in the back with a dagger. It should be a single target nuke. Difficult to land with high payoff.

> @"Apokriphos.7042" said: > Since the OP left out necromancer weapons - probably from a lack of understanding - they are also in dire need of an update: > > 1). Staff - This is not a normal weapon. Long considered "utility" or not main'able, this weapon as designed is something used to switch to, spam and move off. The power coeff on all attacks is terrible, the conditions per ability is nearly useless, but it does have a field and finisher (unusual for necro). The fear is the only useful part of the weapon. The autoattack is completely useless and evaded easily. > > 2). Dagger. Another terrible necro weapon. The auto attack is extremely close range and the weapon has no gap closer but an immobilize on skill 3. The channel skill 2 is not that helpful. The dagger is another weapon without a unified theme. > > 3). Offhand Horn. What happened? This weapon used to be useful, but with the recent change to skill 4 it just became a slow cast limited range cone stun that is inferior to both offhand dagger and focus. It desperately needs a rework. I left out necro weapons because they more of less do what you need them to do. 1.)Staff is pure utility. You could easily make the case that it needs a rework, but it at least fills the role of "utility weapon" nicely. It helps you generate life force with soul marks, it has a reliable AoE CC to help you set up kills, easy access Chill + poison which helps you shut down eles. Condi transfer, which is highly valued on some necro builds, and a small amount of damage and healing. On top of all that, all marks are unblockable if running soul marks. See a ranger running away with GS block? Drop a fear mark under him. Healbreaker full counter? Interrupted. Condi rev thinks he's safe during Crystal hybernation? Interrupted. It's a well rounded weapon with it's own set of pros and cons. 2.)MH dagger is my go to weapon when I need to add a bit more sustain to my build. For context, my 2nd most frequently played build in PvP as of this moment is Mender Heal Scourge, and dagger carries the re-sustain of the build. When enemies go down, I can cleave them with the auto to top up on life force. It also has nice synergy with their fear shade. You can utilize the fear to set up a CC chain with Dark Pact, or guarantee that life siphon hits. It's also the weapon of choice for heal scourge in PvE for what that's worth. It's fairly underwhelming on Reaper though, and core condi would rather run staff | scepter/X. Bunker core, however, can make good use out of it. If I were to offer any criticism towards mainhand dagger, it would be that the auto should have been ranged. Every other skill on the weapon is ranged, and you would think that a skill like dark pact is meant to facilitate ranged gameplay. A melee auto feels out of place on the weapon. Overall, good weapon on Support scourge and bunker builds. Outclassed by other weapons on DPS builds. It has its niche. 3.) Warhorn is a good choice on bunker core necro builds. It's got unblockable CC, which is invaluable in certain matchups (Spellbreaker), and it's one of the only sources of swiftness you have outside of Speed of Shadows. I've also found it useful on Heal Scourge for training down targets with my team. A well timed daze into the enemy healbreaker's full counter can come in clutch when trying to secure a kill. Swiftness helps when I need to kite (which is often since you will be the focus target). Especially useful when trying to do jumping puzzles. Having it means I don't have to dodge jump to make a difficult leap. If I were to argue that any necro weapon needs work it's offhand dagger, it's 5 skill is pretty underwhelming, but the condi transfer is useful

Honestly, I'd rework the spirits all together and fix what's really obnoxious about them. I'd turn darkrazer into a targeted skill. It will do a brief windup (that opponents can clearly see and react to) daze one target within range, then bounce to another if it is also within range, also giving it the ability to bounce back and forth but prioritizing new targets if possible. Essentially working a bit like engi's Pistol 3, but much slower. In order to make it worth casting in 1v1's the initial daze will be 1 second and subsequent dazes will only be 1/4 seconds. With this change, darkrazer will only daze you repeatedly if you stack together with allies. In a 1v1 it will only daze once. Icerazer will be a targeted spirit that throws a shuriken at its target. If it hits, it shadowsteps to the target and does a death-lotus like animation, unloading ice shurikens at the initial target and all enemies around it. Soulcleave - Add an animation of the orange circle forming as they perform the intial channel so you know "life siphoning is about to happen"! Breakrazer - Circle color changed to Green. Green in video games typically = healing of some kind, so that should help you read the skill at a glance. As for the bleed... I'll have to think a bit on that one. All but the heal and soulcleave will have the obnoxious circles removed. Now each spirit has clear counterplay. Darkrazer - don't stack together and it stops bouncing Icerazer - dodge or LoS the initial projectile and it won't shadowstep Soulcleave - A bit orange circle on the ground! walk away for a bit or be ready to avoid their follow-up burst Breakrazer - It's their heal, you can CC it to limit the value they get. Mind you, this would take actual effort on the part of the devs, but it would help to "future proof" Renegade, making it less obnoxious to fight, if power ends up creeping low enough that it becomes meta again after being nerfed.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > With every outlier we nerd > > so you think your theory craft is pretty good, eh?!?! Ha, my mistake. I'd fix it, but the typo is funny so I'm gonna leave it.

It's a shame, because staff ele is the closest you get to a true "Mage" archetype in Gw2. It's just not worth using in any game mode except WvW... which is tough luck for me because my computer cannot handle zerg blobs, and even if it could zerging isn't fun for me personally.

> @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > I get where you're coming from but no amount of nerfs are going to prevent the forums from complaining. > > > > It didn't stop them from complaining about one-dodge mirage having too many evades when they started running signet of illusions. > > It didn't stop them from complaining about ele when they managed to scrounge together one viable dps build amidst all the nerfs. > > It didn't stop them from complaining about scrapper, because dwayna forbid it be allowed to be meta anywhere that isn't WvW zerg snoozefests. > > > > What renegade needs, if anything, is a visual effects rework. Spirits need to more clearly communicate what they're doing so players can more easily play around them. It's clear from the amount of times I've heard people say "Renegade spams too many AoE spirits on node" that their current design does not communicate their individual functions well. > > Well, outside of that. Renegade to me feels great as an objective denial oriented legend if using said skills. > > Only the elite has that weird exception which forgives a lot of mistakes users can do, like having good consistent decision making doesn't matter at all because the healing/damage has no brakes whatsoever. > > Being in a bad spot as Renegade can already be turned around quite easily even without the elite, that's why to /me/ it feels way too good having no interval and doing the actual /math/ with how volatile that skill can be in combination of everything else. There's gotta be some throttling done somewhere to make it fair amongst other things at least in PvP. > > Changing the stats is a bigger nerf than having this ICD since more will be required for less at a time too. Soulcleave is a powerful effect, yes. I don't think that is an inherently bad thing. I believe the issue with Soulcleave lies is not in it's stregnth, but how much of that stregnth fails to communicate itself to the opponent. It looks far too similar to darkrazer and their heal skill from a glance. If the renegade has other spirits out (and they most likely will) it can be difficult to spot Soulcleave amidst all the visual noise. Looking at soulcleave alone, it has the proper trade-offs to compensate for such a powerful effect. You have to cast the skill, you have to wait for the summon to finish a brief cast time, then you have a window where you're hemorrhaging energy and you need to land your burst while empowered by its effects, and it must be done while standing within the AoE (meaning you cannot effectively chase with it). Succeeding at all four will reward you with some nice damage and a large heal. Its party support functionality is throttled by the hefty energy cost. You cannot afford to perma-upkeep soulcleave in a teamfight while also using other spirits or weapon skills or you will run out of energy very quickly, even with charged mists. What Soulcleave needs is for opponents to be able to immediately recognize at a glace that it's up and life siphoning is either happening or about to happen.

I get where you're coming from but no amount of nerfs are going to prevent the forums from complaining. It didn't stop them from complaining about one-dodge mirage having too many evades when they started running signet of illusions. It didn't stop them from complaining about ele when they managed to scrounge together one viable dps build amidst all the nerfs. It didn't stop them from complaining about scrapper, because dwayna forbid it be allowed to be meta anywhere that isn't WvW zerg snoozefests. What renegade needs, if anything, is a visual effects rework. Spirits need to more clearly communicate what they're doing so players can more easily play around them. It's clear from the amount of times I've heard people say "Renegade spams too many AoE spirits on node" that their current design does not communicate their individual functions well.

All I wanted from the Feb Patch was a vitality increase or a -20% damage taken modifier in PvP only. Something to make fights less explosive. I like the current time to kill, but I dislike the mechanical changes we've seen. In the pursuit of nerfing outliers, we're steadily making every class clunkier, simpler and less fun to play.

I've played a good bit of power scrapper, and it has potential to do well on cleave heavy fights. It can pemenantly upkeep scholar rune thanks to barriers, and it can wrack up massive numbers thanks to the lack of target cap on shredder gyro. So far my makeshift rotation has been Shredder Gyro and Grenade Barage on cooldown Hammer 2-5-3-2 Nade 2-5-4 Bomb 2 Bomb until Shrapnel grenade is up Shrapnel grenade Bomb until fire bomb is back up Bomb 2 Repeat Bomb and Shredder gyro toolbelts are saved until breakbar damage is needed. I've been able to do about 22k damage in single target encounters with this, but I've heard of others getting as much as 30k.

> @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"noiwk.2760" said: > > > @"Liewec.2896" said: > > > if 2 revs both use it, do you get the effect twice? > > > i'm wondering how OP a multi-rev comp could get :) > > > > > > > I disagree, look at Impossible Odds change and try to keep a straight face would suggesting it again, I can't. It would be really comical from Anet to favor those changes but keep the other the same which already has worst effects to be even more out of favor. > > 0.25 would put brakes on an otherwise broken effect when there's none to make sure that it's not awfully bloated for every multi-hits that take place on any professions. > > Steadfast Rejuvenation and Charged Mists flow would also change because of that, which makes it a bigger nono. > > They could bring back the old damage and healing at best, but I doubt since everything needed to be touched by the blanket idea.les Impossible odds doesn't have the same drawbacks soulcleave does. You do not have to support a summon with jallis road to prevent random CC's from removing its effects. You don't have to stand within a radius to gain benefits from impossible odds Impossible odds has no wind-up, meaning you can toggle it on/off when you need it most, significantly reducing the drain on energy. Soulceave takes a good second to wind up, and it's draining energy the entire time it does so. Soulcleave does not grant a movement speed increase, meaning it doesn't have the versatility of impossible odds for chasing/kiting purposes. Soulcleave's advantages over imposible odds are the siphon and the lack of internal cooldown. Nerfing the internal cooldown indirectly nerfs the siphon as well. If you're going to nerf soulcleave into what is functionally weaker imposible odds, it should have the energy drain of a weaker impossible odds. `

I'd lower the energy drain from -8 to -6 if an internal cooldown is added. Even then it would be quite a huge nerf.

> @"Megametzler.5729" said: > What did I just read? I'll be honest, I asked myself the same thing and I wrote it

> @"GewRoo.4172" said: > # Power Core Necromancer > > I played this for fun. Even on Zerk/Scholar it performs pretty well. Obviously it has its flaws. Viability depends on map. Memes 9/10. > > Weapons > MH - Staff (Cleansing/Energy; maybe Escape) > OH - Axe/Warhorn or Focus (Exploitation/Revocation) > > Specializations > Spite - 1/1 or 2/2 > Curses - 1/3/1 > Soul Reaping - 2 or 3/3/2 > > Utility > Consume Conditions > Spectral Armor (maybe something offensive like Spectral Ring or Well of Suffering) > Summon Flesh Worm > Spectral Walk > Lich > > Everything hits super hard in this build. Staff Auto up to 3k iirc. Shroud Auto deals like what? 5-7k per hit? Life Transfer easily reaches five-digit numbers. Axe hits hard. Fear hits hard. Lich is just pepega. Positioning and awareness is obviously key. Three to four stun breaks, two ports, second health bar and Lich. Well, it can work. Play it like FA Weaver but keep projectiles in mind. I've played a build similar to this actually, but I ran Scepter/dagger Axe/Focus. Heavy focus on corrupts and bursting targets down in fear.

> @"ollbirtan.2915" said: > Can we please remove posts asking for removal of more and more skills / runes / traits / mechs from pvp? Or at least address how unbalanced it is for players that rely on build diversity vs the fact that a new 'remove/nerf' thread can appear on the forum almost immediately? Give such threads a cooldown of 48 hours to be reapplied again. Just do something about! I haven't laughed that hard in a while. You get a thumbs up