wevh.2903

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > 1. Notice at start of video, there is no enemy Guardian anywhere near me on the mini map before he appears on me for a stealth gank. > 2. When he stealths to disengage me, I did later notice in the video that he had gone left and blipped on the map near my Necro at far. The only possible way he could have done this without the use of speedhack or telehack, is with JI to clip through the mountain side to the Necro. If Rune Of The Trapper can provide him that much superspeed and stealth to be able to do that legitimately without the use of hack programs, that's way way too much disengage/rotational power. That's DP Thief like rotational power when SB#5 was only 5 init. > 3. **Dragonhunters should not be able to gank, rotate, and disengage like a Thief. End of story.** > > You used both your elite and sic em to kill a guy with 40% hp wich is a big missplay , you should had used only elite and then use sic em on the guardian. If you want to reveal the guardian you can activate a randon trap .

> @"Styros.8931" said: > supports, sustain, tanking, endless healing = win . Fresh, fun Isnt 2v2 and 3v3 meta tank too? I think too tanky stuff isnt that good since at overtime it will be useless , put timer on 2,5min instead of 5min

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > Chances are you tried queuing for a match while there was an update. If your very high rating a 10+ min q during strange hours is not out of the norm in fact I get 7 min qs all the time but unranked has a different mmr system than ranked so it’s near impossible, unless 1.) the q was bugged recently and very few are in Mming 2.) there was an update and your technically Qing in a different version of the game as everyone 3.) you have a full 5 q all with high unranked mmr during dead hours than maybe, but probably not... i like how every post you made u note the fact you are a high rating player

> @"Dantheman.3589" said: > I literally haven’t seen anyone bring this up, so I’ll leave it here. My opinion is it’s a bad change and 2s and 3s will just be more boring when everyone gets 1 shot Oh ye double tanky scourge waiting 5min to put 30k barrier and win so fun and skilfull thing!

> @"Exile.8160" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > I think guardian since you have a decent build for every role . > > > > > > Lool guard only has burn, everyyhing else they had has been neef into nothingness. > > > > > > I would say mecro because they can use use everything, scorge core and reaper. > > > > Giardian has support core wich is pretty decent , sagebrand is still pretty decent and bunker core symbols for sidenoding too. > > On a gold under teams yes but plat+ no way. Yes tha> @"Exile.8160" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > @"Exile.8160" said: > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > I think guardian since you have a decent build for every role . > > > > > > Lool guard only has burn, everyyhing else they had has been neef into nothingness. > > > > > > I would say mecro because they can use use everything, scorge core and reaper. > > > > Giardian has support core wich is pretty decent , sagebrand is still pretty decent and bunker core symbols for sidenoding too. > > On a gold under teams yes but plat+ no way. Yes thats why poledra plays core supports at plat3 and recently lot of teams like worms tested core supports at ATs .

> @"Exile.8160" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > I think guardian since you have a decent build for every role . > > Lool guard only has burn, everyyhing else they had has been neef into nothingness. > > I would say mecro because they can use use everything, scorge core and reaper. Giardian has support core wich is pretty decent , sagebrand is still pretty decent and bunker core symbols for sidenoding too.

> @"Ragnar.4257" said: > In order: > > Rev > Engi > Guard > Necro > Ele > Warrior > Mesmer > Ranger > Thief > Since you cant stack same build i dont see holo over guard

I think guardian since you have a decent build for every role .

> @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"Dantheman.3589" said: > > > But think about it this way- engis have to waste a dodge to proc this and this is in combat so they need to force defensive resources for the bonus offensive pressure. > > Totally wrong way to look at it. > > They aren't "wasting a dodge" for offensive gain like Mirages do with IH. > They are gaining an offensive bonus for using a dodge. > > Holo is being put in the spotlight here because they already have plenty of offensive capabilities without Explosives traitline, as shown with already existing builds like Prot Holo. > > Factoring in Explosives traitline, Explosive entrance gives them bonus damage, Barrier and blind, off just using a dodge. > > That's basically rewarding a dodge with a bonus attack, which ALSO gives bonus defensive aftereffects. > > If yu are spam dodging as Engi to use Explosive Entrance then I have nothing to say other than yu deserve to get killed. > Prot holo isnt viable anymore

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > > > Can't hear you, won't hear you, I'm listening to the cries of a hundred thousand thiefs carried by plasma being yeeted back to the dust > > > > > > > > > > plasma is still going to be OP as kitten > > > > > > > > You can rupt it so if you are enough good to press a skill while thief is casting plasma it has counter play. > > > > > > yes, assuming thief is not good enough to hide it behind los/stealth/teleport > > > > Stealth is ruptable too , teleport like using shadow step to cast plasma? Xd , i saw helseth consistent winning vs good thieves , im not saying mesmer>thief but you have a very decent counterplay after nerfs > > its called being efficient, when you stealth ( which you WILL do as thief ) you might as well use plasma before engaging, same thing with shadowstep, if you get CC'ed and have to shadowstep, you might as well plasma before going back in. > I also watched helseth, and against good thiefs best he does is puts some pressure before he runs away to kite spots, there is no " winning ", unless not losing is counted as a win, but even then thief kitten off, and gangbangs your team somewhere else with the plasma you "give" it. > I played AT against thiefs, if you make mistake you die, if they make mistake they almost die and kitten off, and ~20s later you will hear on comms someone complain that thief with kitten plasma ganked them :D Without binding powder you can rupt thief stealth with mantra , you cant simply stealth in front of a mesmer or use health. Helsenth didnt run to kiting spots unless needed , also like u said about breaking los mes can abuse kiting spots too. Right now i think thief v mesmer is a very fair match .

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > > > Can't hear you, won't hear you, I'm listening to the cries of a hundred thousand thiefs carried by plasma being yeeted back to the dust > > > > > > plasma is still going to be OP as kitten > > > > You can rupt it so if you are enough good to press a skill while thief is casting plasma it has counter play. > > yes, assuming thief is not good enough to hide it behind los/stealth/teleport Stealth is ruptable too , teleport like using shadow step to cast plasma? Xd , i saw helseth consistent winning vs good thieves , im not saying mesmer>thief but you have a very decent counterplay after nerfs

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > New things to complain about~!: > > ##Revenant > > * Renegade is still good. Just swap Kalla for Shiro and go Ham. > * Power Herald is being kept in check by other meta specs. Nerf them and It'll terrorize the meta again. > > ##Engineer > > * Acid Bomb still hits hard. You could already viably swap out Grenade kit for Elixir gun, gaining a 3rd stunbreak, better cleanse, and some nice utility. > * Flash shell is still basically smokescreen on a 25 sec cooldown (minus the projectile destruction). Pair with flashbang for good ol' blind-y goodness > * **Prybar** > > ## Elementalist > > * Hey remember lightning rod? A big gatekeeper for that build was grenade holo. Now that it isn't getting one shot, It can go back to doing what it did best... > 100-0'ing you with tornado. FUN! : D > * Lul Shocking Aura go zap zap. > > ## Sasuke Uchiha > > * my "t" key fell off my keyboard so I have to copy paste them now. Cant type capital t's so I had to get creative with the name... Anyway, Condi Daredevil lowkey broken. You have dash to get back in range for p/d 3 and krait rune does way too much damage with Impact Strike. > > Ever find someone running around on 20% health and just... Port onto them, mash your face into your elite skill a few times and watch them drop dead with no downstate? > Ngl, it's pretty funny. > > ##Binding Roots > > * Juvenile Jacaranda and his pet ranger still kinda broken tbh. > > I leave it to you my friends. > > > > > Renegade without kalla has lot 360 aoe spam on node thats ok

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Terrorhuz.4695" said: > > Can't hear you, won't hear you, I'm listening to the cries of a hundred thousand thiefs carried by plasma being yeeted back to the dust > > plasma is still going to be OP as kitten You can rupt it so if you are enough good to press a skill while thief is casting plasma it has counter play.

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > What we're doing here is trying to pidgeon-hole reaper into only being good at a few things (teamfighting, melee dps) any time an option exists that lets them adapt outside of that, we say "Reaper wasn't meant to do that" and we rally to nerf or remove it. > > > > Mentioning Lich instead of Speed Rune just pushes the issue back a step, but the issue still remains. > > To quote Sam Harris, "The buck never stops." > > If it's not Rune of Speed, It's Lich Form. If it's not Lich Form, it'll be Axe weapon skills... If not Axe skills, it will be staff...then Spectral Walk, then Spectral Wurm... Anything that does not fit a singlar build design will be removed, and then the complaints will be "Can't ever win against thief or ranger (or literally any class that can walk)....plez nerf" > > The buck will never stop with the nerf this mentality until we arrive at stick wars 2 and the death of the game....which arguably it's on right now. > > > > I never asked for perma nerfs , i ask for buffs that makes sense on a pvp scenario , speed rune doenst , you can rework lot of necros utility/skills .

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > > > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > > > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > > > > > The team that made daredevil and all HoT spects where thinking forward esl pro league while PoF spects were made in order to do cool showy specializations . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if this were true, which i wouldn't be surprised if it is, it still is a strawman to the point about how this has nothing to do with diversity. Your argument is about balance. Your solution to solving balance is to eliminate player choice, which means no diversity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can balance a game with no diversity...that's what games like Chess, Minsweeper and Fortnite are designed towards...but in a game where things are not homogeneous like guild wars 2, what you are asking for is stick wars 2...or at best a Rock Paper Scissor game, where there are only 9 options rather than many options. > > > > > > > > > > > > Deleting players choince when it comes to stupid stuff that doenst make any kind of sense ? Ofc I want frequent balance patches and reworks that are pvp oriented , buffing right things that ends on builds based on skill . > > > > > > > > > > > > What you are asking for is counter warrs , my build counter yours so i win , then you swap build to counter my counter build so now i win . That makes cero sense , there isnt any fun or skill evolved. > > > > > > > > > > I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. "Just throw a broken build at the other broken build and the one who gets the counter matchup wins". > > > > > > > > > > Whether or not that happens comes down to how the devs design their game. Funny enough, if we keep going down this path of nerfing things with no end, we will eventually end up in counter wars. Take enough options away, and the game will devolve into counter wars, because options are what help give nuance to the situations we find ourselves in. > > > > > > > > > > To demonstrate this, imagine we go down the route you proposed earlier. You said: > > > > > > > > > > > The point is that weakness is what makes the class balanced , the rune is a completely bad design issue. > > > > > > > > > > You wanted rune of speed removed/nerfed because Necro is designed to be slow, have poor chase potential. It should be removed because a Necro that can mitigate or remove that weakness is imbalanced. Notice what happens if we continue to follow that logic. > > > > > > > > > > Reaper designed to be weak vs kiting >> Reaper is hard countered by classes that can kite it. > > > > > > > > > > Reaper runs speed rune >> Reaper no longer hard countered >> We remove/nerf speed rune >> Reaper hard countered again. > > > > > > > > > > We've gotten rid of an option that could've helped bring some nuance into the game. > > > > > > > > > > Lets say we keep speed rune. > > > > > > > > > > Reaper with speed rune has a chance to close the gap where it couldn't before, but the main way it gets swiftness is by entering shroud. You can exploit this to your advantage, saving your defensive cooldowns for that moment. They also do less damage in shroud than they would if they were running a dps rune, so not only are they using some of that shroud to close the gap, but they take more of that precious time to kill you once they're in range. The situation is still tough for them, but the reaper is at least in a position where they can kill you if they bait out your defenses. > > > > > > > > > > We've turned a hard counter into a soft counter. > > > > > > > > > > In summary, options like these are what help us **prevent** Counter Wars 2. > > > > > > > > > > > > > "countered by kiting" , dude "chase potential" means you can kill after you already won a fight , you dont get countered by not having "chase potential" , kalla renegade has cero chase potential and do u see it getting countered by "kiting" XD . > > > > > > > > I think you mean with "countered by kiting" cuz reaper cant chase someone in a 1v1 so they reengage or kill reaper from range . PvP is based on nodes , nodes are close instances where you cant abuse range and all nodes have zones where you can kite and break line of sight , If you win the node you win the fight. This is not WvW where a pew pew ranger or a death eye can just kill you from range by kiting away from you. > > > > > > > > Reaper has its own value , it is strong af in team fight and it kills bunkers faster than any other build. You are not high movile but you are not a turtle , you have wurm and shroud 2 that you still can use to move around the map . The point is high movile classes can move around the map faster than necro and get a kill , thats the value of a high movile class over a necromancer . Youre not stronger than a necro at team fight but your value is on movility. , thats a trade off . Reaper even when it is a very stronng team fighter class can still take 1v1 , whats the point? if they kill your wurm necro cant rly escape a outnumber situation , so thats why you take sidenoders , cuz a sidenoders are bad at team fight but they can duel on a node and survive a plus easier than necro . This is a general explanation , reaper can kite outnumber situations , is not a you get outnumber you get killed . it is more like a reaper will be more likely to dye outnumber. > > > > > > > > thats why team comp matters , when you build a team you take in mind what playstyle are u gonna play with , if you want a strong teamfight comp then you pick necro/support , you want to have both ur necro and support playing together. If you play with a more roamer comp agaisnt this comp you will want to play three nodes cuz supports are weak in mirror fights , 2v2ing can take too long , you get hard countered ? no , they will play with the idea of taking a kill around the map and snowball and you will play with the idea of making team fights , match will a matter of rotations . > > > > > > > > > > > > What i was refering with counter wars was that the guy wants to have a game with 2000 or 20 000 or even more viable builds , this is only possible if each build HARD COUNTER another build , So your build its viable cuz it counters not cuz it has a purpose in conquest . > > > > > > > > > > > > What you are asking its nerf all reaper builds in order balance a rune wich has cero sense . And again , the damage u lose on necro running speed runes isnt rly a trade off for a 66 speed bost . > > > > > > > > Rune of speed is not that broken , but it is disguisting than a reaper outnuns someone using ever single kiting skil , reaper has chill/cripple to get kills on ppl who is kiting , a chill on someone who has no condi clease means almost a kill . > > > > > > > > Take this as an example . Reaper is a high risk high reward build , but necros has no evade frames or blocks . this means without wurm a necro getting focused is dead. this means bad positioning or bad rotation ends u getitg killled . Do you wan this or you want necro to have evade frames or blocks? Good necros will use kiting spots or non port spots so classes like thief and revs can one shot them while doing tons on dmg on team fight , reaper has the tools to survive if played well . You want to reward this playstyle or just give reaper evade frames so it wont dye even if it stands on the middle of the node face tanking every aoe possible? > > > > > > I kinda see where you're going, but perhaps using Kalla ren wasn't the best example. Kiting in video games typically refers to the act of staying at a distance while using ranged attacks to wear down your foe, but it can also refer to the act of simply staying out of your opponent's threat range. > > > > > > Reaper gets countered by kiting because they deal the bulk of their damage in shroud. If you remain out of a reaper's threat range while they are in shroud, they lose a lot of their threat. Any class which can effectively do this will have the advantage against reaper. Any class that can do this and then immediately put on the pressure once they drop shroud (ranger) can easily kill it. > > > > > > Speed rune is an option that helps the reaper "chase" the ranger while in shroud so that they do not leave the reaper's threat range. Important to accomplish because as soon as they drop shroud they're vulnerable to counter pressure. > > > > > > Kalla ren does not get countered in the same way because it does the bulk of it's damage from range. It also does not need to play around a cooldown/resource-gated melee form to deal the bulk of its damage. Due to the way conquest works, it's 900(1200 on Jallis Pull) radius threat bubble is usually sufficient to keep a node held, even if enemies kite off. if they wan't to hang out in narnia, let them. You've got great resustain, and so long as you're both in combat in combat, you're generating energy. > > > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > > > > > Addressing your other point. Viable does not necessarily have to mean meta. It simply means playable. It's definition translates to "Capable of working, feasable". Given the sheer number of ways you can mix and match your traits, runes, utilities amulets, ect It would not be in the realm of absurdity for there to be a total of 2000 "viable" builds across all 9 classes. > > > > > > Changes like the 300 sec CD change, or the removal of amulets/runes, or changes which smiters boon options (or entire weapons) out of existence are what quickly start to dwindle those options creating a more stagnant meta. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again , reaper has lot of tools to deal dmg pressure and land shroud, it is about skill , a bad reaper will be predictable af . Ranger is the worse counter of reaper .Ranger is useless at team fight . You dont want to put your reaper wich is a great class in team fight agaisnt a ranger . Thats a bad rotation and a missplay. You want your sidenodee to match ranger. > > . > > > > But even when ranger hardcounters reaper , on a game like gw2 reaper has still chances to win ranger for example forcing his cd and then nuking ranger with lich (this is what too reapers does). Alaso you dont need and dont dont want to duel a ranger , you will want your sidenoder to face ranger while you want are at team fight . > > > > And others could (and have) used similar reasoning to what you've stated before to make the case that Lich should be nerfed. > > "Reaper is **supposed** to do the bulk of its damage in melee. It shouldn't be able to take one utility and suddenly do more damage than a Sic Em Soulbeast at 1200 range. It's unhealthy and should be toned down." > > What we're doing here is trying to pidgeon-hole reaper into only being good at a few things (teamfighting, melee dps) any time an option exists that lets them adapt outside of that, we say "Reaper wasn't meant to do that" and we rally to nerf or remove it. > > Mentioning Lich instead of Speed Rune just pushes the issue back a step, but the issue still remains. > > > > You put reaper worse counter at 1v1 to justify a reapers buff , when reapers value isnt in 1v1. And even when reaper isnt suposed to 1v1 , it has good matchuns against somd sidenoders like holos or druids for example. > > Never, at any point in my post, did I ask for a Reaper buff. I used your logic to demonstrate how removing Speed rune would push us closer towards Counter Wars 2, not further away. Attempting to pidgeon-hole reaper into being good/bad at certain things in all situations is what would make the game more counter heavy. Options like Speed rune help Reaper break out of the mold and adapt to the situation at hand. > > I then went on to demonstrate how this doesn't break Reaper because the matchup remains in the ranger's favor. > > > Ranger doenst push reaper out of meta because reaper has a very different value from ranger in conquest. If there is anything ranger could push out of meta would be a sidenoder , kalla renegade pushes ranger out of meta. Why? Cuz a mediocre kalla renegade can win top1 ranger. Core ranger only value is sidenoding taking 1v1 if there is a build that esily wins ranger 1v1 then it is useless. A top reaper has chances to win a top ranger if playing a good duel . > > > Of course not. However if ranger becomes the defacto best/most popular side noder, and no options exist which allow a skilled reaper to punish a ranger who is at least decent at their class, we've pushed it entirely out of the side node meta. Some might argue that's a good thing. Reaper should be good at teamfight only. I'm arguing that if a combination of Niche options existed that allowed the reaper to win the 1v1 vs ranger (**Even if these options came at the cost of making their teamfight worse!**) > that would be acceptable. > > You've made the argument that that would not be acceptable. > > > Reaper being good and bad in certain things is healthy , if reaper can do everything why would you pick a ranger , what is a good or a bad rotation if necro is good in all scenarios? This is why nades holo is that broken. Cuz it can do everything . Ranger doenst counter reaper , ranger counter warr , because warr stats makes it a ideal class for sidenoding .

Bots always end up winning , the only way to get rid of bots would be cut rewards on low ratings (wich is unfair) or make pvp rewards rewards bounded , so all rewards would be skins , equip etc but never gold or stuff u can sell and win gold . Joining a unraked match wich is 4v5 its ok , but a ranked match its not a healthy option. You already have map signals. When i need help i target my support , you have too a second target option wich is visibld for a moment and doenst break team target. Reroll is a skilled thing too , a multi classer can win games by adaption and filling a needed team role . It is fair and skillful in ny opinion. Respawn time is 15s u want it shorter?, meta has greatly changed and there is not a "snowball" meta anymore like in post feb . When ppl respawns abd suicides 1v3 it is a l2p issue.

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > You dont need to play meta classes to play ranked , meta is only strictly required when it comes to full competitive enviroments like mothnly ats . > > Then I don't want to play the one build on one of the three meta classes in order to be considered viable in AT. > > > I get what you say , but again , having 3000 builds would make pvp unskilled and unfun. > > There is nothing that would say this to be the case. Gw1 is a perfect example of a system with more diversity, that is in fact more fun to play because there were many builds to play. It was also very skillful too, even if you didn't know what you were up against. The skill is in the theory-craft of the build rather than ones ability to play a single build. > > > Maybe you can call it "balance" but it is a twisted balance that has cero correlation with what a instanced competitive game is. > > No this is how balance works everywhere...in all systems including those outside of gw2. You, talking about roles is a watered down version of the process mentioned before...except it's with 9 builds instead of many builds. > > Like I said earlier, balance lies on a spectrum of diversity....where one side is maximally homogenous and the other side is maximally heterogenous. Both ends of the spectrum there is complete balance, and on both sides of the spectrum it is impossible to find an optimal path to win the game. The difference between the two sides of the spectrum should be obvious...that one favors all things being equal, the other favors all things being different. > > GW2 is a heterogenous game BECAUSE there are 9 distinctly different classes, and it's therefor impossible to balance it into homogeneity because that would mean making every class do exactly the same thing in order to be considered balanced. This is why the balance approach should be to go for heterogeneity, in which choices allowing for things to be more different, leads you to the other side of the spectrum, where balance is also found. > > Again , wheneven i use the word roles you use it to tergiverse my argument . I gived you and entire explanation about how attributes works on conquest , and you didnt even reply to it until i say "roles" . You are simply forgetting all conquest paraments that makes it a competitive game , this paramets are made by humans not a aleatory system of things that balance itself. Attributes put on necromances was made with a certain idea, thief steal was made with a certain idea . Devs filled certain attributed with steal that made thief on a certain position on conquest with its own value , it has a idea on it , isnt a ramdom generated thing . Making it balanced your own way doenst make it a competitive game . The fact a broken build gets counted cuz there is lot of builds doenst make pvp great or competitive game. Compare life systems to a pvp game is just a delusional idea .You said my whole explanation was conjetures while you talking to compare a pvp game to a mathematical system , well , imagine taking a ability like steal balanced aroud a idea a dev had to introduce a class with a certain value in conquest and try to balance it on a therically system without any corelation to the reality of conquest .

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > What i was refering with counter wars was that the guy wants to have a game with 2000 or 20 000 or even more viable builds , this is only possible if each build HARD COUNTER another build. > > I just don't think you understand the mechanism at play here, as the above is not true, nor is it a valid conclusion. > > I already said this, but the reason why having many of something suppresses outliers is because of Anthropic Reasoning. This is the same reasoning that allows us to find Earth-like planets in the galaxy. Due to the sheer number of stars, there should be at least some percentage of them that fit all the criteria for life to form, and look much like Earth. There's over 300 million stars in the galaxy, and so far we've discovered 6 million with earth like planets, which is 0.15% of stars having Earth like planets in their orbit. > > If there were only 9 stars in the galaxy, and 0.15% of them have life, that's less than 1 (0) stars having an earth like planet. > > So if there were 300 million viable build combinations, and 1 of them was some overpowered build, there should be 6 million other builds that exist that can counter that build. > > In the same vein, this doesn't imply that it means JUST hard counter builds. The same Anthropic reasoning applies to softcounters, and neutral builds as well. So if 6 million builds exist to hardcounter a build among 300 million, there is some other percentage of those builds that ALSO softcounter it...and also some percentage of builds that are neutral, and also some percentage that ARE softcountered by the OP build, and some percentage that ARE Hardcountered by the OP build... > > @"Kuma.1503" showed you with his example, the above mechanism in action using an in-game example with Runes of Speed, and why that mechanism acts as a balancing mechanism. Hardcounters are not introduced, they are infact sedated by the process of just having more builds simply existing...they don't even have to be designed in ways that counter other things...they just simply need to "exist" and anthropic reasoning/statistics take care of the rest of the process...ei: little to no developer intervention required. > > Again you can see this mechanism at play in Nature and the real world. Tigers, Bears and Sharks don't hardcounter each other...they exist in consort along with a slew of other animals, each with tremendous variance in what they can and cannot do. The fact that many kinds of animals exist helps quell any other animal from completely taking over. > > > What you are asking its nerf all reaper builds in order balance a rune wich has cero sense > > no...i don't want anything nerfed at all actually. I don't want anything buffed either. Both operations are actually flawed and I prove that here in this comment. > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1344346#Comment_1344346 > > What i really want, is what Kuma said before...options to be meaningful, so that there are more possibilities to have a larger pool of builds to play with. I don't want to play the one build on one of the three meta classes in order to be considered viable. You dont need to play meta classes to play ranked , meta is only strictly required when it comes to full competitive enviroments like mothnly ats . There is couple of builds considered out of meta that are viable . Ranger for example is considered to be a off meta class . But you have soulbeast aa a good roamer and core/druid as decent sidenoders . You can play them perfectly at ranked. I get what you say , but again , having 3000 builds would make pvp unskilled and unfun. When you undertand how conquest works you need to undertand how all viable builds works . You need to know what fights you can take and how to fight agaisnt those builds, how to rotate around them.Thats why roles are created , without it rotations and tean play doenst make any sense. For example as a 1v1 class like core ranger you need to know how nades holo or holo works in order to being able to 1v1 it . So holo in the other hand needs to know how ranger works in order to 1v1 it . By having 30 000 you cant know how all of them works so you will end taking fights you dont know why are u losing . This ends up on a conquest without not more strategy than picking a build ,you cant read a game , there isnt any skill evolved when it comes to mechanical play and any sense when it comes to rotations or decision making. Maybe you can call it "balance" but it is a twisted balance that has cero correlation with what a instanced competitive game is.

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > > > The team that made daredevil and all HoT spects where thinking forward esl pro league while PoF spects were made in order to do cool showy specializations . > > > > > > > > > > Even if this were true, which i wouldn't be surprised if it is, it still is a strawman to the point about how this has nothing to do with diversity. Your argument is about balance. Your solution to solving balance is to eliminate player choice, which means no diversity. > > > > > > > > > > You can balance a game with no diversity...that's what games like Chess, Minsweeper and Fortnite are designed towards...but in a game where things are not homogeneous like guild wars 2, what you are asking for is stick wars 2...or at best a Rock Paper Scissor game, where there are only 9 options rather than many options. > > > > > > > > Deleting players choince when it comes to stupid stuff that doenst make any kind of sense ? Ofc I want frequent balance patches and reworks that are pvp oriented , buffing right things that ends on builds based on skill . > > > > > > > > What you are asking for is counter warrs , my build counter yours so i win , then you swap build to counter my counter build so now i win . That makes cero sense , there isnt any fun or skill evolved. > > > > > > I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. "Just throw a broken build at the other broken build and the one who gets the counter matchup wins". > > > > > > Whether or not that happens comes down to how the devs design their game. Funny enough, if we keep going down this path of nerfing things with no end, we will eventually end up in counter wars. Take enough options away, and the game will devolve into counter wars, because options are what help give nuance to the situations we find ourselves in. > > > > > > To demonstrate this, imagine we go down the route you proposed earlier. You said: > > > > > > > The point is that weakness is what makes the class balanced , the rune is a completely bad design issue. > > > > > > You wanted rune of speed removed/nerfed because Necro is designed to be slow, have poor chase potential. It should be removed because a Necro that can mitigate or remove that weakness is imbalanced. Notice what happens if we continue to follow that logic. > > > > > > Reaper designed to be weak vs kiting >> Reaper is hard countered by classes that can kite it. > > > > > > Reaper runs speed rune >> Reaper no longer hard countered >> We remove/nerf speed rune >> Reaper hard countered again. > > > > > > We've gotten rid of an option that could've helped bring some nuance into the game. > > > > > > Lets say we keep speed rune. > > > > > > Reaper with speed rune has a chance to close the gap where it couldn't before, but the main way it gets swiftness is by entering shroud. You can exploit this to your advantage, saving your defensive cooldowns for that moment. They also do less damage in shroud than they would if they were running a dps rune, so not only are they using some of that shroud to close the gap, but they take more of that precious time to kill you once they're in range. The situation is still tough for them, but the reaper is at least in a position where they can kill you if they bait out your defenses. > > > > > > We've turned a hard counter into a soft counter. > > > > > > In summary, options like these are what help us **prevent** Counter Wars 2. > > > > > > > "countered by kiting" , dude "chase potential" means you can kill after you already won a fight , you dont get countered by not having "chase potential" , kalla renegade has cero chase potential and do u see it getting countered by "kiting" XD . > > > > I think you mean with "countered by kiting" cuz reaper cant chase someone in a 1v1 so they reengage or kill reaper from range . PvP is based on nodes , nodes are close instances where you cant abuse range and all nodes have zones where you can kite and break line of sight , If you win the node you win the fight. This is not WvW where a pew pew ranger or a death eye can just kill you from range by kiting away from you. > > > > Reaper has its own value , it is strong af in team fight and it kills bunkers faster than any other build. You are not high movile but you are not a turtle , you have wurm and shroud 2 that you still can use to move around the map . The point is high movile classes can move around the map faster than necro and get a kill , thats the value of a high movile class over a necromancer . Youre not stronger than a necro at team fight but your value is on movility. , thats a trade off . Reaper even when it is a very stronng team fighter class can still take 1v1 , whats the point? if they kill your wurm necro cant rly escape a outnumber situation , so thats why you take sidenoders , cuz a sidenoders are bad at team fight but they can duel on a node and survive a plus easier than necro . This is a general explanation , reaper can kite outnumber situations , is not a you get outnumber you get killed . it is more like a reaper will be more likely to dye outnumber. > > > > thats why team comp matters , when you build a team you take in mind what playstyle are u gonna play with , if you want a strong teamfight comp then you pick necro/support , you want to have both ur necro and support playing together. If you play with a more roamer comp agaisnt this comp you will want to play three nodes cuz supports are weak in mirror fights , 2v2ing can take too long , you get hard countered ? no , they will play with the idea of taking a kill around the map and snowball and you will play with the idea of making team fights , match will a matter of rotations . > > > > > > What i was refering with counter wars was that the guy wants to have a game with 2000 or 20 000 or even more viable builds , this is only possible if each build HARD COUNTER another build , So your build its viable cuz it counters not cuz it has a purpose in conquest . > > > > > > What you are asking its nerf all reaper builds in order balance a rune wich has cero sense . And again , the damage u lose on necro running speed runes isnt rly a trade off for a 66 speed bost . > > > > Rune of speed is not that broken , but it is disguisting than a reaper outnuns someone using ever single kiting skil , reaper has chill/cripple to get kills on ppl who is kiting , a chill on someone who has no condi clease means almost a kill . > > > > Take this as an example . Reaper is a high risk high reward build , but necros has no evade frames or blocks . this means without wurm a necro getting focused is dead. this means bad positioning or bad rotation ends u getitg killled . Do you wan this or you want necro to have evade frames or blocks? Good necros will use kiting spots or non port spots so classes like thief and revs can one shot them while doing tons on dmg on team fight , reaper has the tools to survive if played well . You want to reward this playstyle or just give reaper evade frames so it wont dye even if it stands on the middle of the node face tanking every aoe possible? > > I kinda see where you're going, but perhaps using Kalla ren wasn't the best example. Kiting in video games typically refers to the act of staying at a distance while using ranged attacks to wear down your foe, but it can also refer to the act of simply staying out of your opponent's threat range. > > Reaper gets countered by kiting because they deal the bulk of their damage in shroud. If you remain out of a reaper's threat range while they are in shroud, they lose a lot of their threat. Any class which can effectively do this will have the advantage against reaper. Any class that can do this and then immediately put on the pressure once they drop shroud (ranger) can easily kill it. > > Speed rune is an option that helps the reaper "chase" the ranger while in shroud so that they do not leave the reaper's threat range. Important to accomplish because as soon as they drop shroud they're vulnerable to counter pressure. > > Kalla ren does not get countered in the same way because it does the bulk of it's damage from range. It also does not need to play around a cooldown/resource-gated melee form to deal the bulk of its damage. Due to the way conquest works, it's 900(1200 on Jallis Pull) radius threat bubble is usually sufficient to keep a node held, even if enemies kite off. if they wan't to hang out in narnia, let them. You've got great resustain, and so long as you're both in combat in combat, you're generating energy. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Addressing your other point. Viable does not necessarily have to mean meta. It simply means playable. It's definition translates to "Capable of working, feasable". Given the sheer number of ways you can mix and match your traits, runes, utilities amulets, ect It would not be in the realm of absurdity for there to be a total of 2000 "viable" builds across all 9 classes. > > Changes like the 300 sec CD change, or the removal of amulets/runes, or changes which smiters boon options (or entire weapons) out of existence are what quickly start to dwindle those options creating a more stagnant meta. > > > > > > Again , reaper has lot of tools to deal dmg pressure and land shroud, it is about skill , a bad reaper will be predictable af . Ranger is the worse counter of reaper .Ranger is useless at team fight . You dont want to put your reaper wich is a great class in team fight agaisnt a ranger . Thats a bad rotation and a missplay. You want your sidenodee to match ranger. . But even when ranger hardcounters reaper , on a game like gw2 reaper has still chances to win ranger for example forcing his cd and then nuking ranger with lich (this is what too reapers does). Alaso you dont need and dont dont want to duel a ranger , you will want your sidenoder to face ranger while you want are at team fight . If ranger makes a situation where it pushes a reaper to stay 1v1with him then thats a good rotation for the ranger , now reaper take the fight or just let ranger the node and move to another fight. And again , reaper has a decent pressure from range , spinal shivers and staff does tons of dmg at ranger , lich too . You have wurm wich you can combo wih shroud . It is a matter of skill . What you are asking is lets buff reaper cuz ranger hard counters it. You put reaper worse counter at 1v1 to justify a reapers buff , when reapers value isnt in 1v1. And even when reaper isnt suposed to 1v1 , it has good matchuns against somd sidenoders like holos or druids for example. Ranger doenst push reaper out of meta because reaper has a very different value from ranger in conquest. If there is anything ranger could push out of meta would be a sidenoder , kalla renegade pushes ranger out of meta. Why? Cuz a mediocre kalla renegade can win top1 ranger. Core ranger only value is sidenoding taking 1v1 if there is a build that esily wins ranger 1v1 then it is useless. A top reaper has chances to win a top ranger if playing a good duel . Sulbesst for example , is a more roamer build , it gets countered by projectilf denial for example by a tempest in big fights . Means this slb is useless? No cuz u can play 3 nodes vs tempest and stuck it on a 2v2 or a 3v2 while you roam around the map. BY good rotatilns you win

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > The team that made daredevil and all HoT spects where thinking forward esl pro league while PoF spects were made in order to do cool showy specializations . > > > > > > Even if this were true, which i wouldn't be surprised if it is, it still is a strawman to the point about how this has nothing to do with diversity. Your argument is about balance. Your solution to solving balance is to eliminate player choice, which means no diversity. > > > > > > You can balance a game with no diversity...that's what games like Chess, Minsweeper and Fortnite are designed towards...but in a game where things are not homogeneous like guild wars 2, what you are asking for is stick wars 2...or at best a Rock Paper Scissor game, where there are only 9 options rather than many options. > > > > Deleting players choince when it comes to stupid stuff that doenst make any kind of sense ? Ofc I want frequent balance patches and reworks that are pvp oriented , buffing right things that ends on builds based on skill . > > > > What you are asking for is counter warrs , my build counter yours so i win , then you swap build to counter my counter build so now i win . That makes cero sense , there isnt any fun or skill evolved. > > I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. "Just throw a broken build at the other broken build and the one who gets the counter matchup wins". > > Whether or not that happens comes down to how the devs design their game. Funny enough, if we keep going down this path of nerfing things with no end, we will eventually end up in counter wars. Take enough options away, and the game will devolve into counter wars, because options are what help give nuance to the situations we find ourselves in. > > To demonstrate this, imagine we go down the route you proposed earlier. You said: > > > The point is that weakness is what makes the class balanced , the rune is a completely bad design issue. > > You wanted rune of speed removed/nerfed because Necro is designed to be slow, have poor chase potential. It should be removed because a Necro that can mitigate or remove that weakness is imbalanced. Notice what happens if we continue to follow that logic. > > Reaper designed to be weak vs kiting >> Reaper is hard countered by classes that can kite it. > > Reaper runs speed rune >> Reaper no longer hard countered >> We remove/nerf speed rune >> Reaper hard countered again. > > We've gotten rid of an option that could've helped bring some nuance into the game. > > Lets say we keep speed rune. > > Reaper with speed rune has a chance to close the gap where it couldn't before, but the main way it gets swiftness is by entering shroud. You can exploit this to your advantage, saving your defensive cooldowns for that moment. They also do less damage in shroud than they would if they were running a dps rune, so not only are they using some of that shroud to close the gap, but they take more of that precious time to kill you once they're in range. The situation is still tough for them, but the reaper is at least in a position where they can kill you if they bait out your defenses. > > We've turned a hard counter into a soft counter. > > In summary, options like these are what help us **prevent** Counter Wars 2. > "countered by kiting" , dude "chase potential" means you can kill after you already won a fight , you dont get countered by not having "chase potential" , kalla renegade has cero chase potential and do u see it getting countered by "kiting" XD . I think you mean with "countered by kiting" cuz reaper cant chase someone in a 1v1 so they reengage or kill reaper from range . PvP is based on nodes , nodes are close instances where you cant abuse range and all nodes have zones where you can kite and break line of sight , If you win the node you win the fight. This is not WvW where a pew pew ranger or a death eye can just kill you from range by kiting away from you. Reaper has its own value , it is strong af in team fight and it kills bunkers faster than any other build. You are not high movile but you are not a turtle , you have wurm and shroud 2 that you still can use to move around the map . The point is high movile classes can move around the map faster than necro and get a kill , thats the value of a high movile class over a necromancer . Youre not stronger than a necro at team fight but your value is on movility. , thats a trade off . Reaper even when it is a very stronng team fighter class can still take 1v1 , whats the point? if they kill your wurm necro cant rly escape a outnumber situation , so thats why you take sidenoders , cuz a sidenoders are bad at team fight but they can duel on a node and survive a plus easier than necro . This is a general explanation , reaper can kite outnumber situations , is not a you get outnumber you get killed . it is more like a reaper will be more likely to dye outnumber. thats why team comp matters , when you build a team you take in mind what playstyle are u gonna play with , if you want a strong teamfight comp then you pick necro/support , you want to have both ur necro and support playing together. If you play with a more roamer comp agaisnt this comp you will want to play three nodes cuz supports are weak in mirror fights , 2v2ing can take too long , you get hard countered ? no , they will play with the idea of taking a kill around the map and snowball and you will play with the idea of making team fights , match will a matter of rotations . What i was refering with counter wars was that the guy wants to have a game with 2000 or 20 000 or even more viable builds , this is only possible if each build HARD COUNTER another build , So your build its viable cuz it counters not cuz it has a purpose in conquest . What you are asking its nerf all reaper builds in order balance a rune wich has cero sense . And again , the damage u lose on necro running speed runes isnt rly a trade off for a 66 speed bost . Rune of speed is not that broken , but it is disguisting than a reaper outnuns someone using ever single kiting skil , reaper has chill/cripple to get kills on ppl who is kiting , a chill on someone who has no condi clease means almost a kill . Take this as an example . Reaper is a high risk high reward build , but necros has no evade frames or blocks . this means without wurm a necro getting focused is dead. this means bad positioning or bad rotation ends u getitg killled . Do you wan this or you want necro to have evade frames or blocks? Good necros will use kiting spots or non port spots so classes like thief and revs can one shot them while doing tons on dmg on team fight , reaper has the tools to survive if played well . You want to reward this playstyle or just give reaper evade frames so it wont dye even if it stands on the middle of the node face tanking every aoe possible?

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > The team that made daredevil and all HoT spects where thinking forward esl pro league while PoF spects were made in order to do cool showy specializations . > > Even if this were true, which i wouldn't be surprised if it is, it still is a strawman to the point about how this has nothing to do with diversity. Your argument is about balance. Your solution to solving balance is to eliminate player choice, which means no diversity. > > You can balance a game with no diversity...that's what games like Chess, Minsweeper and Fortnite are designed towards...but in a game where things are not homogeneous like guild wars 2, what you are asking for is stick wars 2...or at best a Rock Paper Scissor game, where there are only 9 options rather than many options. Deleting players choince when it comes to stupid stuff that doenst make any kind of sense ? Ofc I want frequent balance patches and reworks that are pvp oriented , buffing right things that ends on builds based on skill . What you are asking for is counter warrs , my build counter yours so i win , then you swap build to counter my counter build so now i win . That makes cero sense , there isnt any fun or skill evolved.

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > >No one designed deadeye for "being good in team fights" . Deadeye damage is a result of MOVILITY trade off , disengage potential , chase potential daredevil has and deadeye miss . Deadeye ended being aids and nerfed not cuz it needed to do lot of damage in order to being "good in teamfight" , it ended this way cuz anet wanted a cool range rifle spec not a spec designed for conquest , like daredevil is . Daredevil was made ir order to fullfil atributtes needed in conquest , its movility made pvp way more fluid . > > I mean what evidence do you even have to say this is the case? Where was it stated that daredevil is "designed" for pvp...and where does it say that deadeye is designed because "they wanted a cool rifle spec?" > > Everything you are saying is a word conjecture salad that only applies to conquest if at all, and is subjective at best. Balance exists in PVE, in WvW...and it exists outside of the game and applies to numerous other subject areas in the real world... not just conquest my dude. The team that made daredevil and all HoT spects where thinking forward esl pro league while PoF spects were made in order to do cool showy specializations . Givig thief a rifle with high range/ high is not a healthy This is the pvp forum , conquest mode with three points to capture .

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > Im not complainig , im replying at what you said about thief backstab having 5 target , you are missing my whole post . What you want to do is basically give "aoe" to a high spike skill in order to make a class that highlights on high movility "good" in team fights without any kind of sense. Why would someone want a backtab build be good in team fights? > > > > Imagine thief backstaing s for 8k , then if there is a hard resss going on youre going to hit 8k aoe with backstab on that 3/2 ppl trying to rezz plus the downed and then u just can swap to shortbow and rupt completely the rezz with shortbow 4 . What you said is basically not very intelligent , anet already nerfed thief auto attack cap to 2ppl instead of 3 so imagine a backstab up to 5 targets xD . In order to "balance" a 5 target backstab it would need to hit badically for 1k wich breaks completely the purpose of the skill . > > I addressed this i don't know what you are talking about. > > >Anet manages this kind of target cap dilemma by just adjusting damage...so they will make 5 target abilities do less damage then a single target ability like backstab. Problem with that is, that if 5 target skills do not-a-lot of damage, then they also do 5x times less damage in 1v1 situation's, and you get this sort of inverse problem of the above, where skills that target 5 targets gain less value when targeting less than 5 people. The approach to this is problematic for many reasons, but you can see it most obviously in specs like deadeye..."Let's make single target skills do tons of damage so it will be useful in teamfights" and ya this kinda worked... deadeyes are useful in teamfights...because that value that would have been lost by the difference in target cap is replaced instead by damage...except it's now completely overpowered in 1v1 situations and oneshots everyone in a 1v1. This is a large part of the powercreep problem people were well aware of at POF. where the wrestling between how much damage aoe's should do and how much single target damage skills should do when the problem has always been the number of targets abilities could select. > > Deadeye broken in 1v1. XD thats a l2p issue . No one designed deadeye for "being good in team fights" . Deadeye damage is a result of MOVILITY trade off , disengage potential , chase potential daredevil has and deadeye miss . Deadeye ended being aids and nerfed not cuz it needed to do lot of damage in order to being "good in teamfight" , it ended this way cuz anet wanted a cool range rifle spec not a spec designed for conquest , like daredevil is . Daredevil was made ir order to fullfil atributtes needed in conquest , its movility made pvp way more fluid . What you are missing is classes are not a random product of narute , classes are disigned aroud highlighing aroud some attributes , those attribites made at the same time "roles" assigned by wich attributes a class highlight over the rest . Single target skills doing more damage than aoe skills is not a problem .Aoe skills are competent in 1v1 scenarios , all team flght classes can 1v1 at some point in conqueat if it is needed due to circustances , you can build a core necro build around the fact u maybe need to take a 1v1 vs a holo in a certain match . Necro can 1v1 holo but holo for example can high spike necro with a thief , wich means holo can take a kill faster than core nec , and a thief plusing a holo vs a core nec can result in holo disengage cuz it has aceess to more kite potential / utility than necro . Holo in trade off for highlighting in thosd attribites has less access to aoe . Im this example necro was built around on core around the idea of a high aoe class with big self sustain , it has a second life bar wich makes it resist high damage spikes , trade off fof this high sustain/aoe damage is giving necro poor movility/disengage potential(no blocks and evade frames) poor chase potential but a high acess to cripple/chill. Reaper gives necro movility with reaper 2 and more high spike damage in trade off with sustain cuz reaper schroud has more life force lost per second. And scourge gives necro team support in trade off schoud wich makes it vulnerable to a team spike. Necro with those attributes was assigned to "team fighter" but you can play necro as a more 1v1 holder , a more orientated team support scourge , or a high damage spec as reaper. You can play necro filling not a "static role" playing with those attributes u highligh on .

> @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > > > > > @"wevh.2903" said: > > > > > > Also about having 3000 options but only some of them viable , ofc this is like nature , options which adapts better to the specific winner condition will be always better , no matter how much options you have . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I said this earlier already but heterogenous systems will always have an optimal path to get to the most complex state. Nature is no different. But nature doesn't design for creatures to have a role to play... the creatures themselves are what go about trying to adapt to their environment and assort information to their advantage, again in an attempt to race toward the most optimal path. A game shouldn't design this FOR you, it's the other way around, where the roles are created from the variety of builds that exist. If you design for a creature to have a single role, the creature will optimize it's path for that role you created, and it reduces the number of optimal paths to just that single path. > > > > > > > > > > In the case of Necromancer and the Rune of Speed, a player will by virtue of the above principle will always seek to optimize their build. If speed is what they lack, they will eventually find the choice that allows them to better adapt, and if that option happens to be Rune of Speed then they will do just that. Rune of Speed can then really be any other choice because it will not matter what you design, we will by default find the most optimal choices eventually. That's why this idea of designing around roles is silly at best and its not a surprise why we have a stale meta game now. If it's not Rune of Speed it will be some other Rune...if it's not Onslaught, it will be some other trait...and this process will continue indefinitely as you change, remove or add options. > > > > > > > > > > This is why the key to understanding how to prevent stale meta games and bad diversity is by increasing the optimal computation time, and you do this via understanding how to apply complexity theory to help solve that problem. This is how nature does this as well (obviously) since there are trillions...if not an near infinite amount of possibilities for different species to exist, nature has taken over 4 billion (13.7 billion maybe) years to get to the point where we are at now...and where we are now some would argue that we aren't in the final stages of evolutionary complexity but have merely scratched the surface. > > > > > > > > > > The point is that the game has basically reached it's maximum complexity. People have figured out the most optimal strategies. Designing for roles EXPIDITED this process. > > > > > > > > Completely not true , if they fix rune of speed there is not other way for necro to win movility , necromancer is not a product of random combinations like life , Necro has wurm , spectral walk , scourge portal shroud skill 2 and rune of speed as movility bost , there is no other way necro can win movility cuz there wont be a random generated trait . There is not other rune apart from trapper rune wich gives that strong 6th stat and everyone with a lit knowledge on pvp knows this rune was a big mistake and a very bad design . If you give necro high movility without a trade off then you are UNBALANCING the game , can necro has more access to movility? ok then made a spec that allows necro to shadow step with a trade off on aoe dmg and self sustain , otherwise ur unbalacnign the game > > > > > > > > > > If I'm understanding his post correctly, he wasn't stating that Life or Speeed rune necro are the product of random combinations. He was stating that, in a system (game) in which many options exist, there will eventually come a point where players will find the most optimal option. > > > > > > In the case of Necro, players decided that the class already had good enough damage, sustain, and tankiness as a baseline, but their lack of mobility was limiting their ability to apply that damage. An inability to kite was resulting in them taking more damage, resulting in lower durability than what one would assume on paper. > > > > > > Players realized that speed rune allowed Necro to patch up that weakness. A result of the meta shaping itself, rather than the developers directly influencing it. > > > > > > I believe what he's advocating for are more options which have the potential to interact with other options, creating an exponential number of possibilities. If we were to achieve that goal, it would (theoretically) be much more difficult to determine what the optimal path would be, resulting in more instances of the meta shaping itself. In other words, players could simply adapt to whatever outlier appeared in the meta and there would be little need for constant developer intervention. > > > > The point is that weakness is what makes the class balanced , the rune is a completely bad design issue. More choices doenst make game more fun , a balanced game by this way doenst make a better pvp game . > > You have a point. If a class is balanced around a particular flaw and you remove that flaw, the class becomes imbalanced. Why would any respectable dev willingly introduce such an obvious abuse case into their game? > > We're not factoring in opportunity cost. > > First, you must consider that Necro, as a baseline, has poor chase potential. > Next, consider that your rune of choice comes with a significant gameplay impact. Reaper with dolyak rune is going to be significantly tankier than reaper with eagle rune. > Finally, consider the opportunity cost that comes with using a rune to offset your class's intended weakness. > > What you get is a more well rounded class. You've smoothed out your flaws, but you're also not building towards your strengths as much as you could be. > > If you ran Eagle run instead of speed, you would deal significantly more damage due to more consistent crits and higher crit damage. If you ran rune of resistance, you would be significantly more durable against damage from both ends of the spectrum. A reaper with speed rune sacrifices both damage and tankiness. > > It's a bit like a bird with hollow bones. Its hollow bones allow it to fly with ease, but it comes at a cost because a bird's bones are significantly more fragile than most flightless mammals. > > A bird could evolve to patch up this "weakness" by developing solid bones, but it may not be able to fly as well. you dont sacrify that much dmg special in reaper for a 66% movility bost ,. Literally necroand renegade literally the only two classes wich doenst lose almost anything by equipping speed runes. Necro already have wurm/ spectral walk for movility and ofc it doenst have chase potential , if necro has chase potential then recall it revenant xD . Also nec may have no chase potential but it has biggest access to chill/cripple uptime in the whole game. Every class wich has chase potential is worse than nec in a equal fight scenario , power rev/ tempest would had a lost matchup vs a necro/tempest in a "same skill" scenario . It is not a flow , necro shines in determined scenarios , it is the BEST team fight class cuz it has big self sustain / aoe/ utility .3v3 and 2v2 seassons showed it perfectly . Necros being able to outrun some preffesions its just disgusting .

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > I believe what he's advocating for are more options which have the potential to interact with other options, creating an exponential number of possibilities. If we were to achieve that goal, it would (theoretically) be much more difficult to determine what the optimal path would be, resulting in more instances of the meta shaping itself. In other words, players could simply adapt to whatever outlier appeared in the meta and there would be little need for constant developer intervention. _ > > Ya pretty much exactly this. Just an example is if a Necromancer build with Runes of Speed appear in the meta, then if there was enough diversity, there should exist some combination of traits and skills out there on other classes or even the same class that counter this setup, pushing it back out of the meta. That process is continuous and more fulfilling the more diversity there is, and really I think is what most players actually want from the game, that gw1 was able to do to a degree of success. So basically game mode wouldnt ne about skill anymore . it would be a counter wars . There is no more strategy appart from runnig a build to counter a build xD