Amaranthe.3578
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Posts posted by Amaranthe.3578
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> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
> > > > > > > > > > > Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
> > > > > > > > > > Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
> > > > > > > > > > From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
> > > > > > > > > Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
> > > > > > > > > In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..
> > > >
> > > > They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.
> > >
> > > Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.
> >
> > So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.
>
> Funny thing you said that, that is actually what they do, hence "the small audience they attract". But Anet for some reason still tries to push for that type of instanced content, now via Strikes.
>
> Raids and fractals aren't challenging content, just dance routines. PvP and WvW is where the challenge is :P
Crazy Arena net listening to the players and taking them at their word when they say raids are too hard for them.
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> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
> > > > > > > > > > I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
> > > > > > > > > > Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
> > > > > > > > > Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
> > > > > > > > Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
> > > > > > > > From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
> > > > > > > Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
> > > > > > > In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.
> > > >
> > > > That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.
> > >
> > > Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..
> >
> > They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.
>
> Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.
So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Eramonster.2718" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following: [https://reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Soooo, unique rewards for raiding or any other content is bad? I agree. Everything should be attainable in any gamemode. That way we wouldn't even need a "story mode" for raids.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But that's not the issue here. If Asmondgold does Heroic/Normal that means he isn't interested doing raids just for the story, so there shouldn't be a need for him to do LFR. Blizzard however made LFR a part of the gearing ladder, which gw2 doesnt even have, so he does LFR despite the fact that he doesn't like it. It really doesnt have anything to do with the point you made.
> > > > > > > > In GW2 that's not an issue at all, you can get all the things you want from any game mode. Leggy armor can be obtained for wvw and pvp too.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But the legendary skins would be a certain reward. The same goes for some other raidskins. In order to get them you would need to do the corresponding raids. There are people that raid just for the skins, even if they aren't interested in doing raids. I don't really see the difference. Yes, one is bound to stats, but that's just because WoW is based on vertical progression. You also don't need LFR gear to do normal raids. There are also multiple ways to get similiar gear with the same iLVL as LFR gear through World Quests and stuff, so you aren't forced to do LFR just to get stats.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, unique skins to certain forms of content is more than fair IMHO. The difference seems obvious since skins to offer anything mechanically. I think we should have raid skins, pvp skins, wvw skins.
> > > > > > In wow you can avoid LFR if you want but the fact that it pulls Heroic and Normal raiders screams bad design.
> > > > >
> > > > > Raids in GW2 also pull people that wouldn't normally raid, or dislike raiding, just for the skins or the easy access to legendary armor, so I'd also call that bad design.
> > > > >
> > > > > > When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess we just have a different definition of "certain reward", as I don't restrict it to numerical values/upgrades. Skins, teleportation devices, chairs etc. are also rewards for me that are restricted to certain areas of the game I personally dislike.
> > > >
> > > > They do? Why? If you don't like raiding the pvp/wvwvw leggy armor is far easier to get. And you get the utility of the leggy armor.
> > > > I think unique skins are absolutely a must. I mean, lets say you beat a certain piece of challanging content and you wanna show it, how else would you do it? Seems rather weird that you would get the same reward without the challange. Just the unique pvp titles.
> > >
> > > Idk, legendary raid armour has always felt easier to get to me than PvP or WvW armour. It's just some scripted dance routine over and over.
> > > Also someone that exclusively plays PvE would not have another choice than go for the raid armor.
> > > It really just boils down to
> > >
> > > > When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.
> > >
> > > I've never really felt the need to show off anything to anyone, I only really care about my own character or good looking characters. Like why would they even care? Not like doing a scripted bossfight is something unique. I only really admire people that do truly unique feats, like the Dark Souls challenges I mentioned, or speedrunners. They don't actually get anything for that, just the fame that they've done it.
> >
> > I totally agree on the first part. Yet somehow loads of people complain that raids are too hard.
>
> I've also seen plenty of people that claim that raids are unfun and that it has nothing to do with challenge.
Maybe, but the vast majority of complaints seem to be that they are too hard and that your average raider is a dickens.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > > > > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > > > > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
> > > > > > > > I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
> > > > > > > > Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
> > > > > > > Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
> > > > > > Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
> > > > > > From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.
> > > > >
> > > > > You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
> > > > > Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
> > > > > In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.
> > > >
> > > > Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.
> > >
> > > I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.
> >
> > That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.
>
> Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..
They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Eramonster.2718" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> > > > > > > > > > > > LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.
> > > > > > > > > > > > I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following: [https://reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/)
> > > > > > > > > > > That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.
> > > > > > > > > > Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Soooo, unique rewards for raiding or any other content is bad? I agree. Everything should be attainable in any gamemode. That way we wouldn't even need a "story mode" for raids.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But that's not the issue here. If Asmondgold does Heroic/Normal that means he isn't interested doing raids just for the story, so there shouldn't be a need for him to do LFR. Blizzard however made LFR a part of the gearing ladder, which gw2 doesnt even have, so he does LFR despite the fact that he doesn't like it. It really doesnt have anything to do with the point you made.
> > > > > > In GW2 that's not an issue at all, you can get all the things you want from any game mode. Leggy armor can be obtained for wvw and pvp too.
> > > > >
> > > > > But the legendary skins would be a certain reward. The same goes for some other raidskins. In order to get them you would need to do the corresponding raids. There are people that raid just for the skins, even if they aren't interested in doing raids. I don't really see the difference. Yes, one is bound to stats, but that's just because WoW is based on vertical progression. You also don't need LFR gear to do normal raids. There are also multiple ways to get similiar gear with the same iLVL as LFR gear through World Quests and stuff, so you aren't forced to do LFR just to get stats.
> > > >
> > > > Well, unique skins to certain forms of content is more than fair IMHO. The difference seems obvious since skins to offer anything mechanically. I think we should have raid skins, pvp skins, wvw skins.
> > > > In wow you can avoid LFR if you want but the fact that it pulls Heroic and Normal raiders screams bad design.
> > >
> > > Raids in GW2 also pull people that wouldn't normally raid, or dislike raiding, just for the skins or the easy access to legendary armor, so I'd also call that bad design.
> > >
> > > > When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.
> > >
> > > I guess we just have a different definition of "certain reward", as I don't restrict it to numerical values/upgrades. Skins, teleportation devices, chairs etc. are also rewards for me that are restricted to certain areas of the game I personally dislike.
> >
> > They do? Why? If you don't like raiding the pvp/wvwvw leggy armor is far easier to get. And you get the utility of the leggy armor.
> > I think unique skins are absolutely a must. I mean, lets say you beat a certain piece of challanging content and you wanna show it, how else would you do it? Seems rather weird that you would get the same reward without the challange. Just the unique pvp titles.
>
> Idk, legendary raid armour has always felt easier to get to me than PvP or WvW armour. It's just some scripted dance routine over and over.
> Also someone that exclusively plays PvE would not have another choice than go for the raid armor.
> It really just boils down to
>
> > When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.
>
> I've never really felt the need to show off anything to anyone, I only really care about my own character or good looking characters. Like why would they even care? Not like doing a scripted bossfight is something unique. I only really admire people that do truly unique feats, like the Dark Souls challenges I mentioned, or speedrunners. They don't actually get anything for that, just the fame that they've done it.
I totally agree on the first part. Yet somehow loads of people complain that raids are too hard.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
> > > > > > I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
> > > > > > Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
> > > > > Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.
> > > > >
> > > > > PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.
> > > >
> > > > But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
> > > > Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
> > > > From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.
> > >
> > > You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
> > > Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
> > > In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.
> >
> > Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.
>
> I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.
That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist toxic zealots and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > > > >
> > > > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > > > >
> > > > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > > > >
> > > > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > > > >
> > > > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > >
> > > > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > > > >
> > > > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > > > >
> > > > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> > > >
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > > > >
> > > > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > > > >
> > > > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > > > >
> > > > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > > > >
> > > > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > >
> > > > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > > > >
> > > > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > > > >
> > > > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> > > >
> > > > I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
> > > > I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
> > > > Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.
> > >
> > > Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
> > > Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.
> > >
> > > PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.
> >
> > But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
> > Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
> > From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.
>
> You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
> Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
> In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.
Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Eramonster.2718" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> > > > > > > > > > LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.
> > > > > > > > > > I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following: [https://reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/)
> > > > > > > > > That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.
> > > > > > > > Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.
> > > > >
> > > > > Soooo, unique rewards for raiding or any other content is bad? I agree. Everything should be attainable in any gamemode. That way we wouldn't even need a "story mode" for raids.
> > > >
> > > > But that's not the issue here. If Asmondgold does Heroic/Normal that means he isn't interested doing raids just for the story, so there shouldn't be a need for him to do LFR. Blizzard however made LFR a part of the gearing ladder, which gw2 doesnt even have, so he does LFR despite the fact that he doesn't like it. It really doesnt have anything to do with the point you made.
> > > > In GW2 that's not an issue at all, you can get all the things you want from any game mode. Leggy armor can be obtained for wvw and pvp too.
> > >
> > > But the legendary skins would be a certain reward. The same goes for some other raidskins. In order to get them you would need to do the corresponding raids. There are people that raid just for the skins, even if they aren't interested in doing raids. I don't really see the difference. Yes, one is bound to stats, but that's just because WoW is based on vertical progression. You also don't need LFR gear to do normal raids. There are also multiple ways to get similiar gear with the same iLVL as LFR gear through World Quests and stuff, so you aren't forced to do LFR just to get stats.
> >
> > Well, unique skins to certain forms of content is more than fair IMHO. The difference seems obvious since skins to offer anything mechanically. I think we should have raid skins, pvp skins, wvw skins.
> > In wow you can avoid LFR if you want but the fact that it pulls Heroic and Normal raiders screams bad design.
>
> Raids in GW2 also pull people that wouldn't normally raid, or dislike raiding, just for the skins or the easy access to legendary armor, so I'd also call that bad design.
>
> > When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.
>
> I guess we just have a different definition of "certain reward", as I don't restrict it to numerical values/upgrades. Skins, teleportation devices, chairs etc. are also rewards for me that are restricted to certain areas of the game I personally dislike.
They do? Why? If you don't like raiding the pvp/wvwvw leggy armor is far easier to get. And you get the utility of the leggy armor.
I think unique skins are absolutely a must. I mean, lets say you beat a certain piece of challanging content and you wanna show it, how else would you do it? Seems rather weird that you would get the same reward without the challange. Just like the unique pvp titles, would be weird to give them outside of pvp.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > >
> > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > >
> > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > >
> > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > >
> > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > >
> > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > >
> > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > >
> > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > >
> > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > >
> > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > >
> > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > >
> > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > >
> > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > >
> > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > >
> > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> >
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > >
> > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > >
> > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > >
> > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > >
> > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > >
> > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > >
> > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > >
> > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > >
> > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > >
> > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > >
> > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > >
> > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > >
> > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > >
> > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > >
> > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> >
> > I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
> > I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
> > Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.
>
> Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
> Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.
>
> PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.
But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Eramonster.2718" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> > > > > > > > LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.
> > > > > > > > I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following: [https://reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/)
> > > > > > > That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.
> > > > > > Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.
> > > > >
> > > > > Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.
> > > > >
> > > > > Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.
> > > >
> > > > The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.
> > >
> > > Soooo, unique rewards for raiding or any other content is bad? I agree. Everything should be attainable in any gamemode. That way we wouldn't even need a "story mode" for raids.
> >
> > But that's not the issue here. If Asmondgold does Heroic/Normal that means he isn't interested doing raids just for the story, so there shouldn't be a need for him to do LFR. Blizzard however made LFR a part of the gearing ladder, which gw2 doesnt even have, so he does LFR despite the fact that he doesn't like it. It really doesnt have anything to do with the point you made.
> > In GW2 that's not an issue at all, you can get all the things you want from any game mode. Leggy armor can be obtained for wvw and pvp too.
>
> But the legendary skins would be a certain reward. The same goes for some other raidskins. In order to get them you would need to do the corresponding raids. There are people that raid just for the skins, even if they aren't interested in doing raids. I don't really see the difference. Yes, one is bound to stats, but that's just because WoW is based on vertical progression. You also don't need LFR gear to do normal raids. There are also multiple ways to get similiar gear with the same iLVL as LFR gear through World Quests and stuff, so you aren't forced to do LFR just to get stats.
Well, unique skins to certain forms of content is more than fair IMHO. The difference seems obvious since skins to offer anything mechanically. I think we should have raid skins, pvp skins, wvw skins.
In wow you can avoid LFR if you want but the fact that it pulls Heroic and Normal raiders screams bad design.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Eramonster.2718" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> > > > > > LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.
> > > > > > I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.
> > > > >
> > > > > I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.
> > > > >
> > > > > Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following: [https://reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/)
> > > > > That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.
> > > >
> > > > Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.
> > > > Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.
> > >
> > > Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.
> > >
> > > Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.
> >
> > The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.
>
> Soooo, unique rewards for raiding or any other content is bad? I agree. Everything should be attainable in any gamemode. That way we wouldn't even need a "story mode" for raids.
But that's not the issue here. If Asmondgold does Heroic/Normal that means he isn't interested doing raids just for the story, so there shouldn't be a need for him to do LFR. Blizzard however made LFR a part of the gearing ladder, which gw2 doesnt even have, so he does LFR despite the fact that he doesn't like it. It really doesnt have anything to do with the point you made.
In GW2 that's not an issue at all, you can get all the things you want from any game mode. Leggy armor can be obtained for wvw and pvp too.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > >
> > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > >
> > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> >
> > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
>
> To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
>
> >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
>
> Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
>
> >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
>
> Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
>
> >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
>
> It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
>
> >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
>
> Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
>
> In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Eramonster.2718" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> > > > LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.
> > > >
> > > > That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.
> > > > I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.
> > > >
> > >
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> > > >
> > > > It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.
> > >
> > > Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.
> > >
> > > I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.
> > >
> > > Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following: [https://reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/)
> > > That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.
> >
> > Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.
> > Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.
>
> Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.
>
> Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.
The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
>
> Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
>
> The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Eramonster.2718" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> > LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.
> >
> > That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.
> > I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.
> >
>
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> >
> > It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.
>
> Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.
>
> I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.
>
> Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following: [https://reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/)
> That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.
Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.
Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.
I recall ghostcrawler once said it was a bad idea but all I could find now is this:
In this vid asmondgold explains why it's such a bad idea:
Nixxiom, another big wow youtuber articulates the problems well enough:
-
Join a guild and don't pug. That's what guilds are for.
-
> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:
> And here i am wanting to take my plaguedoctor herald to fractals. I can already imagine the ride when my offmeta support tries to join a group and he's not pure dps, not brand and not renegade;p Fun times ahead!
So don't pug. Most pugs arent pleasant or even rational people.
-
Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
-
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.
-
> @"Eramonster.2718" said:
> > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.
> LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.
>
> That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.
> I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.
>
GW2 raids are easy enough already. People in GW2 however think that if they can't pug it mindlessly it's "too hard". I cleared most bosses with my guild while we were in full exotics playing off-meta builds(that are still good though, just aren't meta).
-
> @"Teratus.2859" said:
> Lot of us have been barking up this tree for years man.
>
> I don't see it happening to be honest but I'll keep defending the benefits I see of easy mode raids no matter how many times I get into disagreements with people who think differently.
>
LFR ruined raiding for wow, there are plenty of reasons faceroll raids are a terrible idea.
-
LFR ruined raiding for wow, I'd advice against it. I guess a true story mode with little to no loot can be acceptable but still, its a bad idea for loads of reasons. I'm pretty sure if it actually gave no loot almost nobody would even run it.
-
It would be ather simple, it was done by many games in the past. They make an announcement a month or so in advance. Something along the lines of : in a month any character under level X(usually a very low level) that wasn't logged into for at least X days(usually a vey long period of time) will be either deleted or be given a random generated name and a name reset upon next login.
The chance of ANet doing it? Zero. Too much work. They doing whatever they can already and are struggling to produce content.
-
I see people all the time complaining about toxicity/elitism/general jerkiness in the "raiding/fractal playerbase".
The thing is, PUGs are that way by nature. There's nothing that can or needs to be done about that. I've played WoW for years(late vanilla-pandaria) and raided most of that time. As many of you know, WoW endgame has a much stronger focus of raiding/group instanced content. Since the dawn of time PUGs have been cancer or something you do only once you got the content on total farm mode(hence the absurd requirements). For most of my days in WoW , PUG raiding was pure mockery, if you raided - you do it with a guild or your mates. In GW2 however, I see people that are completely surprised by the nature of PUGs and place blame all around except the right places. I believe the reason for this is simply that almost no content in GW2 nodges people towards communication. People expect to do raiding and fractals the same way they do open world group events and don't bother communicating with others( a crazy idea, communication in a MP game???).
I suggest to anyone who is still in the pug life scene to just stop. You will discover a whole new game.
Some easy and obvious beginner tips:
1. Join a Guild! Find a guild with shared interests and communicate with them. You will find that any boss/fractal doesn't need "meta" comps. Simply following the mechanics and concentrating on the actual fight will get you there.
2. Use your friend list! Say you encounter a decent player from anywhere who isnt in your guild, communicate and add them to your friend list. Next time you can contact him straight away and you got a competent party member!
3. Focus on mechanics over DPS, always. You can't do DPS if you are dead. I can't tell you how many times I've seen players who dont communicate and die from simple mechanics because they were in tunnel vision mode on their rotation and personal DPS. In fact, the difference between a really complex optimal rotation and an easier one is usually less than 20 percent. Always follow common sense and focus on fight mechanics. If you're raiding, focus on learning fight mechanics and don't tunnel vision the perfect rotation.
If you just abandon the PuG life you will find yourself having a blast in raiding/fractals.
Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience
in Instanced Group Content
Posted
> @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.
> > > > > > > > > > > > From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.
> > > > > > > > > > > Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.
> > > > > > > > > > > In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.
> > > >
> > > > So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.
> > >
> > > Funny thing you said that, that is actually what they do, hence "the small audience they attract". But Anet for some reason still tries to push for that type of instanced content, now via Strikes.
> > >
> > > Raids and fractals aren't challenging content, just dance routines. PvP and WvW is where the challenge is :P
> >
> > Crazy Arena net listening to the players and taking them at their word when they say raids are too hard for them.
>
> They aren't actually listening to the players, just evaluating some of their metrics that show that only a small audience plays raids. Fractals seem to be in a healthier state.
> I don't think they've found the right conclusion though. I'm very sceptical of their decision to use SMs as a bridge to raids.
I don't think its the right solution too. I think the obvious conclusion that some sort of bridge is needed comes from the massive DPS difference between the average player and the good players . The right solution is adding challenge along the way so that people dont just roflstomp all the open world content with autoattacks. Notice that the OP basically says that people don't raid because they are too hard and too toxic lol.