Amaranthe.3578

The HoT maps are great and the monsters arent pushoceds

As long as all classes have a role to play in a group then no, balance in PvE doesn't really matter

> @"Trise.2865" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > @"Trise.2865" said:

> > > What does "challenge" mean, in this context?

> > > Longer TTK? Puzzle elements? Scripted immunity/phasing? Secondary event completion?

> > > Do you want to *think* harder, *work* harder, *try* harder, *plan* harder, *die* harder?

> >

> > I've actually given an example. Some basic mechanics that make mindless zerging impossible.

>

> So the definitive example is "do something".

>

> Well, at least jonerikb is actually trying...

Read the original post again. Add basic mechanics like: two champs that have to die at the same time.

So far the vast majority says No

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> It looks to me as if people are misunderstand how the other side uses the word "challenge" in this thread.

>

> From my understanding of what the Original Poster has said through this thread:

>

> They want Group Events to have some kind of mechanics that forces players to interact beyond just standing on one spot auto-attacking until things are dead. Basically make so that Group Event's aren't just "Loot Pinatas".

>

> Examples:

> * Players have to gather ammunition to some cannons that has to be fired to make a boss/champion vulnerable to normal attacks

> * Boss/Champion that changes phases, where it could for example go invulnerable, do conditions on block, or strong retaliation. Forcing players to pay attention and stop attacking.

> * Boss/Champion that moves around as the fight goes on, require people to move after, jump over things etc.

>

> All of these could be done without actually making the Boss/Champion any noticeably "Harder".

>

> ---

>

> Challenging doesn't inherently mean harder, it primary refer to physical or mental effort, like solving a difficult crosswords.

>

> ---

>

> Example: Shadow Behemoth

>

> This boss already have a mechanic for this, by spawning the portals and turning invulnerable until the portals are all destroyed.

>

> The problem with this boss is that half or so of the players just ignore the portals and stand in the safe spot in front of him and wait to auto-attack when he becomes target-able again.

>

> So how to make this boss feel more active?

> * Instead of making him invulnerable/non-target-able he could instead block all attacks and cause conditions on block, so people have to pay some attention and stop attacking.

> * Remove safe spots, and let him aoe more randomly so people have to pay attention and move around.

> * Alternatively have portals and mobs spawn closer to the safe spot to drag more players into that part.

> * Make more portals, or make them harder to take out, so more people have to help out removing them. To avoid that 10 people can do the mechanics for a much larger group.

> * Alternatively make SB carpet bomb from the front and expanding until the Portals are taken away, so people want to move away and toward the portals.

>

> None of these would make the boss any harder, they would just require people to pay attention, read the (update) event text about mechanics, and pay attention to what others did and follow up. And would make people have to move around a bit to survive, and pay attention to what and when they attacked.

Finally, someone understands

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > > > > kitten are you talking about? Who in their right mind plays game without ANY challange? Why play a game over a movie then?

> > > > > Because in a game you have an illusion of being able to influence what;s going on.

> > > > > > Action games are about quick reflexes, startegy games are about well, strategy. Even Sims requires you to manage resources. Are you bananas?

> > > > > And MMOs are about socializing. So when i play an MMO and get an action game instead, excuse me for not feeling all that comfortable with it.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > MMORPGs are well, RPGs. They are about playing together to overcome challenges.

> > > First, MMORPGs don't have that much in common with pen & paper RPGs (and they never did). Second, yes, RPGs may be about playing together to overcome challenges, however the challenge does not lie in defeating an opponent, but in _creating an interesting story_. Role Playing Games, not Roll Playing Games.

> > >

> > > > An RPG without any challange is.... just dumb.

> > > So is an RPG where challenge becomes more important than the "role playing" part.

> > >

> > > In short, challenges are okay. But if the challenges introduced start negatively affecting the social factor of the MMORPGs, then they become a problem.

> > >

> > > Like my signature says: "The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.". The whole design of raids is made around an assumption that you will need to pick players to group with to fit the content, instead of doing it the other way around, like it should be.

> > Raids/Fractals in GW2 are so easy you can do them with literally any group of friends if you just follow the mechanics. Honestly, people like you baffle me. If the game offers no challenge you will have a better time on Facebook socializing, you don't need a game for that. The whole point of multi player games is Cooperating with others.

> > If all you're doing is just mindlessly zerging down the event youre not cooperating.

>

> Ill argue that and say no, they arent that easy, keep in mind i agree with wanting more challenge for the bosses.

>

> My group of friends that i play with 90% of the time(when im not doing raids or fractals) cannot do Raids, period. They dont enjoy running specific builds or requiring players to use specific classes for content. they dont want to learn the mechanics or they have mental/physical reasons they cannot do them, even i have issues with mechanics due to a hand that half the time refuses to respond when i want it to.

>

> Co operating with others =/= challenge. I cooperate with players constantly in non challenging content, one does not need challenge to have cooperation and vice versa. The new Drakkar fight is freaking awful because of what happens when two completely opposite groups of players are forced to clash.(when it fails).

>

> This game has as a vast majority of its population, casual players(not the "suck at the game, dont wanna try, dont care, kind either.") . The kind that are here because they dont want to play typical MMOs. The kind that you want to make this game into. Trying to do so has not, and is not working out for anet(weve already got threads going on both here and reddit complaining about strikes.) when the silent majority get upset thats when things go wrong.

>

> edit: just to be clear, i do want more mechanics/challenge for bosses. Just not the extent that they become impossible for silent majority of players.

They don't want to learn mechanics? Why are they in the raid in the first place?

Do we get new Fractals/Raids fast enough?

> @"zityz.6089" said:

> I don't think the term "challange" is what your going for, I think you mean you don't want the world bosses to be basic. Which a lot of them tend to be, but the idea of having to communicate WHILE you are fighting the world boss is a terrible idea because that usually indicated poor planning.

>

> Most fractals/or more intricate bosses, the mechanics are typed before the fight so people know what to expect, not during. That's usually left to people getting too emotional during the fight and typing non helping phrases into the actual chat.

>

> If they want to fix the intricacies of world bosses, before they change mechanics, they need to make a way to cut down on the eye sore that is 50+ people's skills going off all at the same time, making the barely seen dim red circles/patterns more effective. The reason why it works well in Dungeons, strike missions, raids, fractals is because with 5- 10 people in a team, the skill spam animations are no where near as bad so mechanics can be seen/ more diverse .

>

> Triple trouble is hard to some people, not because the mechanics are "challenging" but because instead of a squad of 5-10 people per spot, you have multiple squads with tons of people moving about and creating skill animation clutter which can get lost in the mix of what needs to be done, but since it is a world boss, they're defaulted to having absurd amount of health to compensate for the amount of people.

>

> More proof of this can even be seen in the ooze pits in Grothmar. It's just a group event, but look at the difference between a group closed off into one of the 3 sections with skills going off, to when the whole pit is open. How many people attack the ooze without colour changing? a lot, because I'm sure most of them cannot even see the colours on the ground due to the bright intensity of the skills being spammed to kill the oozes.

>

> This is just from my perspective from over the years of playing, this may not represent from everyone's play perspective.

I did say all I want is for them to add some basic mechanics. Simply to prevent mindless zerging. My main problem is not world bosses but rather Group events. You see 10 people mindlessly zerging down a poor champion while ignoring all of his mechanics and still get the job done.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > > kitten are you talking about? Who in their right mind plays game without ANY challange? Why play a game over a movie then?

> > > Because in a game you have an illusion of being able to influence what;s going on.

> > > > Action games are about quick reflexes, startegy games are about well, strategy. Even Sims requires you to manage resources. Are you bananas?

> > > And MMOs are about socializing. So when i play an MMO and get an action game instead, excuse me for not feeling all that comfortable with it.

> > >

> >

> > MMORPGs are well, RPGs. They are about playing together to overcome challenges.

> First, MMORPGs don't have that much in common with pen & paper RPGs (and they never did). Second, yes, RPGs may be about playing together to overcome challenges, however the challenge does not lie in defeating an opponent, but in _creating an interesting story_. Role Playing Games, not Roll Playing Games.

>

> > An RPG without any challange is.... just dumb.

> So is an RPG where challenge becomes more important than the "role playing" part.

>

> In short, challenges are okay. But if the challenges introduced start negatively affecting the social factor of the MMORPGs, then they become a problem.

>

> Like my signature says: "The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.". The whole design of raids is made around an assumption that you will need to pick players to group with to fit the content, instead of doing it the other way around, like it should be.

Raids/Fractals in GW2 are so easy you can do them with literally any group of friends if you just follow the mechanics. Honestly, people like you baffle me. If the game offers no challenge you will have a better time on Facebook socializing, you don't need a game for that. The whole point of multi player games is Cooperating with others.

If all you're doing is just mindlessly zerging down the event youre not cooperating.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > kitten are you talking about? Who in their right mind plays game without ANY challange? Why play a game over a movie then?

> Because in a game you have an illusion of being able to influence what;s going on.

> > Action games are about quick reflexes, startegy games are about well, strategy. Even Sims requires you to manage resources. Are you bananas?

> And MMOs are about socializing. So when i play an MMO and get an action game instead, excuse me for not feeling all that comfortable with it.

>

MMORPGs are well, RPGs. They are about playing together to overcome challenges. An RPG without any challange is.... just dumb. Facebook on the other hand is for socializing.

Btw, in real life you also have a say about what's going on with you. A shocker, I know.

The majority of the changes affect sPvP/WvW.

If you're looking for good single player experiences I'd suggest looking for single player games.

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > > From what I've gathered most PvE players in this game don't desire challenge. They just want "GW2-Clicker-Heroes" where you press one button to win your shiny. Not too fast either, their finger might get worn out.

> > > >

> > > > Please don't paint with such a broad brush.

> > >

> > > Okay, my bad. I should have worded it as "The vocal group of PvE players I've encountered here on the forums".

> > And you're _not_ part of that "vocal group of PvE players that can be encountered here on the forums" i guess?

> >

>

> No no, hes clearly part of the "Vocal Raiding player base on the forums."

>

> To the OP,

>

> Im all for an increase in difficulty under two conditions.

>

> 1.) its natural and it begins from the first world boss available and moves upwards up to a certain level that is never surpassed, allowing the largest amount of players to get 100% participation.

> 2.) the event is never wasted time, if one fails they still get full rewards based on how they participate(and it needs to be a bit more than Bronze, silver, gold.), nothing is worse than doing your best and getting nothing because others did not.

I totally agree, it's no wonder people feel stumled by challange. They have developed bad habits from their early experience where everything can be killed while mindlessly zerging it down.

Again, I'm talking about VERY basic mechanics simply to prevent mindless zerging.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > > > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > > > I think it's a shame that most group events and even world bosses can be simply zerged down. Since they are so easy people don't even talk at all during those events. They might as well be NPC's. Adding even some basic mechanics like 2 champs that have to die at the same time can make people actually communicate, make friends and move into fractals/raiding.

> > >

> > > People want easy world bosses. They are all good. What's this crazy obsession with "Challenge"?!

> >

> > Are you serious?

>

> Many people seem to want the game to be as easy as possible. Probably even easier if they could get it. So I would assume they are serious.

I don't get it...if the game offers no resistance at all why play it?

> @"Trise.2865" said:

> What does "challenge" mean, in this context?

> Longer TTK? Puzzle elements? Scripted immunity/phasing? Secondary event completion?

> Do you want to *think* harder, *work* harder, *try* harder, *plan* harder, *die* harder?

I've actually given an example. Some basic mechanics that make mindless zerging impossible.

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> He's still planning to do a lot of GW2 content, he's just branching out to increase his audience.

Yeah, cuz he can't make enough new GW2 content because the content flow is so slow.

> @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> More challenge means fewer people show up...that's the reality of a casual oriented games. If people don't show up, then who are you going to talk to?

Again, Im talking about a SLIGHT increase in challange. Just some VERY basic mechanics simply to prevent mindless zerging.

> @"Lambent.6375" said:

> They just wouldn't do them, like silkears is often ignored/failed in desert highlands.

>

> And yes, I've killed him a couple times the past few weeks.

Im only talking here about a SLIGHT increase in challange. Some VERY basic mechanic simply to stop the mindless zerging.

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > I think it's a shame that most group events and even world bosses can be simply zerged down. Since they are so easy people don't even talk at all during those events. They might as well be NPC's. Adding even some basic mechanics like 2 champs that have to die at the same time can make people actually communicate, make friends and move into fractals/raiding.

>

> People want easy world bosses. They are all good. What's this crazy obsession with "Challenge"?!

Are you serious?

> @"Cynder.2509" said:

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > @"Cynder.2509" said:

> > > People say that you don't need LI or KP to join. Well, I've seen only groups in lfg asking for those and I've even seen groups in LFG that want LI and KP for the new Drakkar world boss. Like what do you need KP and LI for just a world boss for? So it's right what OP says because so far I've only seen stuff in lfg that has requirements een for world bosses.

> >

> > You on eu or na?

> > Cant say I seen it in eu.

>

> I'm on EU and just recently this night/morning (some time around 2 am and 4 am I think) I've seen at least 2 or 3 adds for Drakkar requiring 250 LI. As for Strike missions (if the LFG tab isn't empty) people ask for raid stuff. You rarely find any relaxed runs. I thought the intention of strikes was to get more people into raids (or get people who took a break to return to them) but as I see literally every lfg add for them requiring raid kill proofs I doubt this content will get anywhere.

> And whenever I make my own group stating that it's a relaxed run and everyone is welcome still people join who obviously stress and act toxic towards eachother. You can tell from the AP and the gear if someone is obviously toxic or not, so that's how I know.

Join a guild and make friends

You mean the dodge tutorial through the spike trap isn't enough? huh

Necro is by far the easiest and strongest for general PvE.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Triple Trouble is one major exception. Although they may not talk in map chat, leaders prefer to use a ts/discord server instead and communicate to everyone in their lane what is happening. The only other one I can think of is Dragon Stand where communicating in map chat does happen. Oh and Shatterer to get the cc achievement

>

> I'm not necessary a fan of the need to use such resources to coordinate pve boss fights, but I do think we are overdue a boss fight of that calibre. It is a shame Drakkar didn't fit that bill because it was deserving of it.

>

> The problem with too much challenge is that the majority of players who populate open world, would just steer away from it. It needs to be a centrepiece like the aforementioned ones. In that scenario, I am in favour of rare, selective very challenging open world group events

You're talking about extremes here, why not add a little challange to most events to encourage socializing?

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > Probably maintenance mode

> No, no, of course not. It would be Maintenance _Saga_.

>

The maintenance Era

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Amaranthe.3578" said:

> > Pretty sure they can.

> Not without spending a lot of effort on coding it, because there's absolutely nothing to even suggest that any mechanic that would help them do that is already in the game. So, we're back to the "not worth it" situation.

>

If it requires any significant effort then it's totally not worth it. Besides, its a great opportunity to practice the most important language