Stephen.6312

> @"EdwinLi.1284" said:

> Well it is almost time and looks like Braham will be meeting with Primordius.

>

>

>

> Take your bet to where this may lead and of course we will discuss this matter in depth once the chapter is released.

>

> For me there is may two outcomes....

>

> 1) Braham becomes Primordius Champion which may force us to kill him later in the storyline or he becomes Primordius Champion just so he can trick Primordius later and dies doing so.

>

> 2) We learn something we never knew before about Primordius and Braham remains loyal to our side instead of becoming Primordius Champion.

>

> or

>

> 3) Braham dies because that is the most common method for the story writers to remove a character from the storyline since they can't allow most characters to retire from the storyline alive and healthy.

It's a long shot but...given that Braham's approaching Primordus accompanies the fomer's questioning of the Elder Draconic Cycle, musing that something has to change, I think that Braham is going to commune with the mind of the Elder Dragon Primordus and reach an epiphany. Primordus may surprise Braham, telling the norn that Jormag's protection is the right choice for the norn. This makes the most sense to me from a narrative progression standpoint. The dragon preparing to defend Tyria isn't Primordus, it's Jormag. The latter's decision to chill mortals is probably an attempt to preserve them from the DSD's incoming assault.

So, my money is on the idea that Primordus will appeal to Braham to join Jormag and will allow itself to be sacrificed in order to help ready the mortal, terrestrial races to confront, and ultimately reconcile with, the Deep Sea Dragon's magics.

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> Because I've been given no reason to think that the Spirits of the Wild are evil, they've done nothing or said nothing to make me think this is the case.

To each their own, I guess. I do wonder, though, if part of the problem is viewing all of these things through a moral lens.

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> Don't tell me you're on this "the Spirits Are EEEEEEVIL" bit too.

I just like to consider both sides of the narrative. Right now, it's a given that Jormag is evil. Why can't some of the other spirits be "evil", or more realistically, not strictly "good"?

> @"Oxstar.7643" said:

> Isn't the tone of the story kinda shifting too much?

> 1. Zhaitan must die.

> 2. Also Mordremoth

> 3. No actually, this is bad, they are vital to the balance of the world

> 4. But let's kill one of the worlds gods.

> 5. Okay, now a new ED that is our friend replaced Kralky

> 6. Also we are going to kill another ED

>

> I mean... isn't Jormag also a part of the life force of the world? Is killing him really such a good idea? I don't think Aurene can balance out the loss of ANOTHER elder dragon.

> As for the spirits replacing Jormag, this sort of life force surgical proceedure sounds very... out of nowhere?

Who knows? The Spirits may actually envy Jormag. Elder Dragons manage a lot of magic and influence large swathes of corporeal reality. Surely other spirits want the same?

I am of the opinion that the Deep Sea Dragon represents a kind of failsafe, a way of ensuring that the Elder Draconic Cycle cannot be stopped. The dragon, presumably, lives in some of the deepest waters i Tyria and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that it resides in an ocean trench. This makes it almost impossible to stop, as the submersible technology required to descend to, and withstand the crushing pressures of, water at such depths probably hasn't besn developed yet by terrestrial mortals. It's possible that specialized minions of Zaithan and Jormag could do so, and Jormag may intend to deploy it's ice magic in the depths in an effort to disarm the Deep Sea Dragon. There may be a long-forgotten ritual, possibly linked to the Dragon Bash festival, that can be perfomed somewhere in the depths to achieve this.

It's also possible that a terrestrial spellcaster may be able to speak a "safe" word to disarm the cycle from the safety of the continent. Alternatively, the spell may be a peculiar combination of the Elder Dragon's names. I don't think that just any old spellcaster could achieve these things though. Remember, no pun intended, that most of the knowledge contained in important documents like the Tome of the Five True Gods has been lost to time. You'd need a god, or goddess, with a savant-like memory of history to recall the contents of documents like the Tome.

A goddess like Lyssa...

If my suspicions prove correct, and Lyssa's corporeal form is interred in a charnel house somewhere, I propose the following sites for her resting place:

1) Under, or somewhere in, Lion's Arch;

2) The Harvest Temple.

What role, if any, do you think that Lyssa will play in the upcoming expansion?

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> > > How would either manage to do this to Lyssa when the Six left Tyria centuries before the latest Dragon rising?

> >

> > I genuinely feel that there is something up with the timeline with which we have been presented. This forum hasn't spent enough time investigating the Mouvelian Calendar's idiosyncrasies to be able to articulate details about it that are, presently, largely grasped intuitively.

> >

> > Knowledgeable members of the lore community will remember that the Risen Priestess of Lyssa states that her "goddess was mere prey for the dragon". The priestess uses the past tense. She also states that Zaithan "devoured" the gods. So how does that work, given the timeline presented to us? It's tempting, downright easy, to dismiss it all as lies. Those who hear the priestess are divided about her truthfulness. The open-minded are prepared to question whether the priestess is telling the truth. Others are unwilling to even entertain the idea that she might be candid. But what if the priestess *is* telling the truth From a storytelling perspective, this is the only option presented to us that allows for the development of any further storylines.

> >

> > I'm not saying that I believe Teerack's theory is accurate enough to be reliable. But it's a good attempt. No one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of.

>

> Why shouldn't we dismiss what the Priestess said as lies? Zhaitan's minions said a lot of kitten, why should we believe this particular one?

Did they consistently lie, though? How many possible lies can you identify, without the explicit aid of an NPC's dialogue? Why don't you list lies identified as such by NPCs? That would allow us to discern just how truthful the Risen really are.

What about the Risen Keeper of the Shrine? Was he lying when he claimed that "the Mists are full of lies"? Why make such a claim?

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> How would either manage to do this to Lyssa when the Six left Tyria centuries before the latest Dragon rising?

I genuinely feel that there is something up with the timeline with which we have been presented. This forum hasn't spent enough time investigating the Mouvelian Calendar's idiosyncrasies to be able to articulate details about it that are, presently, largely grasped intuitively.

Knowledgeable members of the lore community will remember that the Risen Priestess of Lyssa states that her "goddess was mere prey for the dragon". The priestess uses the past tense. She also states that Zaithan "devoured" the gods. So how does that work, given the timeline presented to us? It's tempting, downright easy, to dismiss it all as lies. Those who hear the priestess are divided about her truthfulness. The open-minded are prepared to question whether the priestess is telling the truth. Others are unwilling to even entertain the idea that she might be candid. But what if the priestess *is* telling the truth From a storytelling perspective, this is the only option presented to us that allows for the development of any further storylines.

I'm not saying that I believe Teerack's theory is accurate enough to be reliable. But it's a good attempt. No one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of.

They might've eaten Lyssa. The best thing about your speculation is that you're trying to fit Lyssa in. Whatever question we ask, or theory we propose, can't hurt to do so.

Thumbs up, mate.

> @"Veprovina.4876" said:

> In the Draconis Mons part of the LW3 story, when you're collecting druid shields to go into the volcano where Balthazar and Primordus are, Taimi calls you and says something about how she was wrong, doomed everyone, horrible stuff will happen, then you go to the shore so she can show you and an animation plays.

>

> There's some swirling balls, two of them shoot lazers at each other and disappear.

>

> After the animation, the commander is like:

>

> *"No, it can't be..."*

> *"But this means..."*

>

> And Taimi is like:

>

> *"Yes, exactly, and it's all my fault..."*

>

> Like, what the hell is anyone talking about? What will happen? What did Balthazar do? What will happen if he does the thing to Primordus?

> What even is going on?

>

> Did this really need to be so obtuse? I feel like an idiot when my characters are all agreeing in half sentences and know more than i do.

> Wasn't that animation supposed to explain to me what is going on and not raise more questions? Especially since my character already knows what that meant.

>

> Can someone explain that part to me?

As others have pointed out, Taimi's machine produced a *simulation* indicating that, when Jormag and Primordus clash to the death, the fallout would cause an explosion. This seems to be the first time that Taimi truly becomes aware that the death of an Elder Dragon can cause an explosion, so too the PC. Prior to this, the only other way that we could infer this is from the Thaumanova Reactor disaster and, given the PC's remarks to Taimi during Season 3, it seems that any lessons that the PC might have learned from Thaumanova, weren't. Like Taimi, he/she seems to realise the dangers of the wrong dragon(s) fighting and or dying from Taimi's machine.

What are we to make of Taimi's simulation? Well, I think that it was *slightly* incorrect. Yes, an Elder Dragon's death can cause an explosion. But not Primordus's or Jormag's. They can safely *duke it out* and, whatever should happen to Tyria as a result, it won't be so disastrous as to threaten the perpetuality of terrestrial life. (Balthazar turned the two dragons' energies against each other and it didn't destroy Thyria. Each dragon simply withdrew, indicating that they balance each other out.) Thus, the machine needed to be recalibrated, pitting any one of the Terrestrial Elder Dragons (TED) against the Deep Sea Dragon (DSD). Should a TED face the DSD, Taimi's fears **might** truly be realized: If the DSD dies, or the DSD is pitted against the wrong TED, Thyria will explode.

This is all just my opinion, of course. As I see it, Balthazar understood that killing the TEDs wouldn't prove fatal to terrestrial life. His strategy against the DSD would probably have involved trying to put it back to sleep, or even replacing it with Aurene; a plan that Jormag may now be adopting in Balthazar's stead.

:)

Just a thought: Everything that takes place after the Commander gets shot with a *flaming arrow* (representing Primordus) is part of an elaborate dream sequence through which Jormag subtlely converts the Commander to their side. When the Commander awakens, Aurene even acknowledges that the Commander has been having "fitful dreams".

There's a bigger possible message here, though. Aurene talks about Jormag's "vague warnings" that aren't specific enough to reveal anything. Moreover, the episodes, especially during the DRMs, involve language and events that keep reminding me of water. At Rata Sum, destroyers come out of the water. NPCs fight a destroyer with an especially hard shell and must find a way to penetrate it's armour. They also describe destroyers as "flooding in". There are other instances too, but I'm on my phone and this is a mission so I'll skip an exhaustive list of examples.

So, why is Jormag doing this? Well, it's fair to say that Primordus is acting as a proxy for...you guessed it: the Deep Sea Dragon. But why doesn't Jormag just plainly tell Aurene and the Commander about the DSD, or say it's name?

Here's the idea: For some reason, discussing these things plainly is too dangerous for the ears of mortals, even Aurene, to hear. To reveal the DSD's malevolence, Jormag must be subtle so as to prevent further destabilising the Elder Draconic Cycle.

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> My question is a simple one, considering that Primodus had been awake for just over 200 years before being temporarily forced into a dormant state, why is his re-awakening a much larger threat to Tyria than he was for the last 200 years awake? Does it have to do with the deaths of now three Elder Dragons, the Ascension of Aurene, is Jormag pulling even more bull kitten on us somehow, or something completely unknown the cause?

Good question. My impressions are much like your own. I struggle to see Primordus as much more of a threat now than he was before.

The way the PC is conversing with others, no one seems to have much of a clue about how everything works...which makes it hard to understand why anyone would take the threat of Primordus any more seriously now than they did before.

One closing thought, though, is that Prim's forces seem to show more interest in surface civilizations than before. Maybe the little disruption that they're causing is making members of the Five Playable Races nervous because of the reports of Prim's destruction brought to them by the remaining dwarves. Most of the more powerful destroyers that we fight are known for their successes against the dwarves. If they can do that to a race that transformed itself into a "living weapon", I guess they can do a lot more to other races that have not.

> @"Fenella.2634" said:

> It's been a while since this topic was being discussed, but replaying LS2 reminded me that we still don't know all the sylvari firstborns. At launch, we knew 9 out of 12, later Wynne's fate got revealed, but two are still completely unknown.

>

> In LS2, Caithe's memories are especially interesting as they give us a bit of a timeline. Apparently, the two missing firstborns disappeared even before the secondborn awakened. Riannoc was already dead by the time of Caithe's first memory, so it's not certain if they disappeared before that happened or after. Also, this happened before the Nightmare Court was founded. At this time, the death of a single sylvari was a huge deal for them all. So I imagine if at a time like this two more firstborn would have died / had something traumatic happen to them, it's likely we would have learnt about this, since it should have left a strong impression on sylvari society, especially the other firstborns.

> In contrast, when Wynne did die, the sylvari had already experienced trauma and deaths as a society numerous times. This was some time after the asura captured larger groups.

>

> So, because they disappeared at such an interesting time in sylvari history, I personally suspect they might be still alive and on some kind of mission. Maybe exploration or diplomatics concerning other continents, so they basically had no chance to visit home in the meantime? Like, I don't know, maybe Cantha or even that continent in the west that seems to have trading routes connecting it to Central Tyria? However, sending them that far away when their siblings even barely left the grove... I'm not convinced.

>

> ... Or maybe they died in some really stupid accident that everyone refuses to ever mention.

>

> Has anyone heard anything about them in the past ~8 years? I mean, they must have some kind of story, otherwise the devs could just have not defined the number of firstborns in the first place.

They're probably among the characters that Anet's storytelling team cast aside. The optimist in me, though, would suggest that the missing firstborn are either in Cantha or exploring the Mists.

> @"Hypnowulf.7403" said:

> Here's a better question: _Why do we need **another** hostile entity when we already have one already that's pulling the strings?_

>

> We witnessed it in LWS4. Unless we just believe everything we're told at face value as an objective truth—and no one should do that—it's kind of obvious from the story we experience ourselves that the torment isn't just "corrupted magic." It's an entity in and of itself. It's a brain parasite. For all we know, Mordremoth and Zhaitan were tormented. Kralkatorrik was the first time we saw what was driving dragons to be like this.

>

> What if Primordus is tormented? What if the deep sea dragon is tormented? What if we find a way to force the torment out of them, so that they ally with us? This could force the torment to find another way to enact its goal—entropy. The torment seems to seek the destruction of all things for the release of entropy, which might be its food source. All that it does could be towards this end, it's a parasite that destroys Universes in order to feed upon the release of entropic energies. An abstract predator.

>

> What is the torment, then? I think it could be the manifest will of the realm of torment. With all that's happened there, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a malevolent gestalt will had arisen. And it just wants to make suffering and death happen so that it can feed on the release of energies. What could happen following the freeing of dragons from torment is the torment playing its hand.

>

> Essentially, to defend its realm, the torment calls to the fore every tormented entity out there. This could include the Inquest, it could include the human Gods, it could include the Separatists. I mean, thanks to Jormag, the Renegades have been dealt with. The point is is that there could be an underlying reason for everything that's been occuring in Tyria, that reason could be torment.

>

> So the End of Dragons isn't about the death of dragons but rather their freedom from the grip of torment and their allegiance to our cause. When the torment plays its hand, it could be very interesting to find out just how many it's turned and tainted. It could make it a very difficult foe to fight since, in actuality, it wouldn't be the fault of those afflicted with torment—they're just puppets. That'd be an angle for the drama of dealing with the torment and why yet more flat-out murder isn't the answer. It might mean that we require more clever approaches, moving forward.

>

> Just a thought.

I think that you're on the right track with this approach. I'm not sure that I would go so far as to call "torment" an evil entity, though. I agree that it is an entity, or rather entities. But evil? I'm undecided about whether it's malevolent (magic) by nature, or whether it has become hostile as a result of traumatization. It'll be interesting to see how Anet try to explain the nature of torment, as the concept of magic experiencing trauma has been *conspicuously* ignored by tbe writing team.

Maybe Canthan humanity is in a better position to help the lesser races of the Northern Tyrian Continent understand torment? Yet another reason why we must travel to Cantha.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> >

> > In reality, no power build can maintain 15k dps over 3 seconds. Im not sure any can even reach 30k burst in 2 seconds.

>

> Oh you can on some power builds. But those kinds of skill cycles are complex and difficult to land. In no way are nuclear power bursts nearly as easy to land successfully as nuclear condi bursts and that really defines the problem behind condi builds. It's not that condi builds are stronger than power, it's that they're just too easy to use.

Good point. Condi DPS doesn't require the same mechanical work rate as power DPS.

> @"Fenella.2634" said:

> I'm quite surprised noone has discussed Laranthir yet. Was he still Almorra's second-in-command by the time of Whisper in the Dark? If so, he should be the next leader of the Vigil.

> In the story I get the impression that Jhavi could well take this place, but maybe she is just supposed to take over the keep.

>

> Is Laranthir still part of the story, or did he resign sometime ago offscreen? If he's still around, he should return to the limelight very soon.

To hazard guesses, he's either incarcerated or they've killed him off-screen. Laranthir just wouldn't *not* be back with the Vigil after Almorra's passing.

I think that ele players have the greatest potential to achieve the highest skill level in the game. The class requires a good understanding of build synergy and strong mechanical proficiency. Imagine if Anet gave ele players too much breathing room, relaxing the demanding workload of playing the class, eles would become godmode in a way that other classes can't.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> ANET: posted in pvp general instead, this one can be removed / merged I guess.

>

> Consume plasma has been the strongest stolen skill since 2012.

>

> Lets look at the stolen skills:

>

> * **Mace crack**- melee, removed with stunbreak

>

> * **Essence sap** - needs target, can be dodged (though 2nd strongest stolen skill)

>

> * **Whirling axe** - melee, long channel that you can get damaged in.

>

> * **Throw gunk** - small radius, weak effect.

>

> * **Healing seed** - stationary, has cooldown.

>

> * **Blinding tuft** - short duration, s/d thief doesn't benefit much from stealth, harder to get because you need to steal on a thief, only benefits the opener/escape not mid combat.

>

> * **Ice shard** - melee, can be cleansed

>

> * **Skull fear** - long channel, can be dodged.

>

> Stolen skills are either attacks that need to hit a target (and either melee or slow cast), or defense with limited useability and cooldown like healing seed. This means that the thief must take risks and be think about it in order to get value out of the 2nd stolen still from improv, by going in melee range or doing a slow channel for instance. With plasma the thief just steals, jumps behind LoS, and uses it twice. Because it doesn't need to hit a target, doesn't need LoS, doesn't need melee, doesn't need to be spread out because it stacks so well. It scales too much with improv + sleight of hand + swindler's equilibrium.

>

> Doesn't matter the situation, thieves will steal on the mesmer to get the boons, any opportunity cost is lost because it is *always* worth it. Playing a squishier build (e.g. power chrono) feels like playing the floor is lava vs top thief (try facing sind, pain, etc). It feels a bit like playing the "gas station" class.

>

> Consume plasma has recently garnered attention due to boonbeast, and *surprise* it is broken there as well. Just Imagine if there was a utility that gave all boons in the game, on a <20 second cooldown.

>

> Even thematically, why does mesmer stolen skill give boons while guardian's gives daze and engi's gives etheral field? That seems backwards.

>

> Now I am aware some will take this an april fools joke because it contains the words "thief", "broken", and "nerf". This thread is about one skill, consume plasma, not about the entire class.

>

> (last thread got closed)

Maybe the dichotomy between plasma orb granting boons and every other stolen skill merely offering the thief an out-of-the-ordinary ability reflects Anet's initial desire to make thieves hard-counter mesmers?

> @"Tashigi.3159" said:

> Can we please just remove this from the game? Or at least address how unbalanced it is when used on classes that rely on dodge to remove the kitten condi or the fact that it can be re-applied almost immediately after removing? Or put it higher on priority for condi cleanse.

> Just do something about it 'cause unless you're playing a specific build/class to counter it, there is 0 fun had fighting against people who build around immobilize.

I think that it would be better to simply tweak immobilisation. Every profession has something that not only defines it, but also draws exasperated calls for nerfs from disaffected players. Immobilisation is one of the primary ways that a ranger controls the battlefield and defines itself. When you go after a class-defining thing, you need to tread carefully.

Hi everyone,

I've been thinking about the direction in which the GW2 story is heading and I wanted to share my thoughts with readers, for better or for worse.

As you may know, I've long theorized that the event referred to by Northern Tryian human historians as "the Exodus" was a spell, cast by Lyssa. In my opinion, given the events of [Chaos Theory](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaos_Theory), the spell displaced those whom it affected, from the region of the Crystal Desert, north-west, forming the region that the Apostate's map calls "Thyria". I think that this region is that to which the Guild Wars Prophecies Manuscripts refer, geographically defined as "[t]he Tarnished Coast in the west to the Bay of Sirens (now called the Sea of Sorrows) in the south....the far eastern reaches of the Crystal Desert to the Giants’ Basin on the northern coast of Kryta".

It is my belief that the Elder Dragons are attempting to counter Lyssa's spell. In my opinion, Lyssa is a spirit of time, dwelling within the the sphere of influence over which Kralkatorrik held sway (time). Although I can't yet construct robust reasoning for my conviction, I nonetheless feel that Glint's legacy, which affects time, has a pivotal part to play in this process.

Now onto the wild speculation. I believe that Lyssa cast her spell during the Great Battle of the Gates of Heaven. The conflict between the gods was so traumatic that it threatened to destroy the entire planet. So Lyssa cast her spell to try and buy everyone more time to resolve their differences. (These differences manifest as many things. But the most immediate form they take is tormented magic). But this came at great personal cost. Either due to the casting of the spell, or possibly an injury inflicted by a fellow god, Lyssa was injured. As she lay dying, then, the spell was cast.

Lyssa poured what was left of herself, her lifeforce, into the Exodus spell, essentially becoming a part of the new reality in which Northern Tyrians live. This manifests in a number of ways, all of which involve chronological aberrations. [For example, no one can find origin stories of Lyssa.](http://https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quiz_Terminal). Northern Tyrian history "resets". Northern Tyrians' timekeeping practices are unusual; they rely on the Mouvelian Calendar (all of the Guild Wars books reference the calendar), a human way of marking the passage of time, even though their are at least four other races capable of producing timekeeping records of some kind. Furthermore, timekeeping practices among Tyrian humans differ wildly. Dynastic Reckoning was developed by Elonian human scholars; the Canthan Calendar is used by Canthan human scholars. Although it is possible that the Mouvelian Calendar looks to Tyria's sun as the most accurate timekeeper, this may not be the case. It suggests that, however time is passing within the reality that we know of as "Thyria", it isn't determined by something that other isolated populations - Elonians and Canthans being just two examples of these - find compelling enough to look to for their own chronological reckoning.

Anyhow, I believe that part of the dragons' work is to recover Lyssa's form. I believe that, although the goddess's essence forms the fabric of Northern Tyrian reality, she can still be discerned. Hence, in Path of Fire, Kormir refers to Lyssa as though the latter is still whole. However, the goddess's lifeforce is scattered throughout Thyria and the only way to save her is to reconcile the pieces of her by purging the magical elements, upon which she drew when she cast the Exodus spell, of their tormented magic. Presently, the Elder Dragons are closer than ever to doing this and Jormag, as their leader, is prepared to use any and every means necessary to see the dragons' work of countering Lyssa's spell completed. Thus, all of the Elders are working together, some even sacrificing themselves (Primordus), to help Jormag save Lyssa from complete annihilation.

I believe that Balthazar's "Plan B" was to be absorbed by the Elder Dragons in order to use their powers to help him trace Lyssa's form. As I see it, Balthazar didn't curse Lyssa out of respect for the memory of her selfless sacrifice.

This brings me to my thoughts on the Fractals of the Mists. I theorize that the Fractals may be the memories of one of the human gods, or perhaps all of the human gods, that collectively form a chronological ley-line (i.e. a timeline) of Lyssa's essence. Sunqua Peak may be an "encrypted" memory that reveals the true target of the Fractals: Lyssa. This Fractal coincides with the current state of Thyria, indicating to us how close the Elder Dragons are to restoring Lyssa to her family. Hence, the cries, ["I can't bring her back!" and "I couldn't save her!"](http://https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sunqua_Peak_Fractal) are ultimately uttered by Dwayna, referring to the loss of Lyssa at the Great Battle. I think that Dwayna and Abaddon were Lyssa's parents.

I'm not sure why Jormag and the Deep Sea Dragon are squaring off, but it's possible that the traumatized magics of the terrestrial and aquatic biospheres, both of which were present at the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven, have been unwilling to resolve their differences because the process is too painful for them. Hence, the Elder Dragons are positioning these tormented magics into an unavoidable situation in which they must face each other and finally put away their long-standing grudges. Only then will it be possible for the Elders to restore Lyssa's form, reverse the Exodus spell, and return the Crystal Desert to it's former glory.

Your thoughts?

Or another, disturbing possibility...the other terrestrial dragons are reconstituring themselves, allowing the remaining Elders to relinquish the magic that they managed on behalf of their fellows. We never recovered Zaithan's corpse. Mordremoth hid himself in Zojja, who continues to suffer from the debilitating effects of this. Kralk's spirit was observed over Dragon Festival.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> ANet **(specifically, Ree Soesbee - one of the two narrative directors of ANet, making her of the highest lore figure at ANet, at the time)** had long ago established that Elder Dragons without gender in 2010. In other words, it's been long established that, biologically speaking, **ALL** Elder Dragons - even Kralkatorrik, Glint, Vlast, and Aurene - are technically an "it".

As I have stated before, Konig, I believe that you have an over-reliance on out-of-game sources to help you comprehend in-game "facts".

>This is why **the wiki** had gone through lengths to ensure the Elder Dragons are referred to with "it" pronouns, unless otherwise used in-game.

The wiki isn't the fulcrum we would have it be. Anyone reading this response should remember that contributors to the wiki are doing their best to provide "facts" in a manner of which all wiki editors approve. This is a good thing. However, it doesn't mean that the wiki's use of the term "it", when referring to Elder Dragons, is *still* accurate. As of 2012 it might have been accurate *within the context* of the early story. At that time, an everyday Tyrian might'nt have thought of an Elder Dragon as anything more than an it. However, Aurene has penetrated aspects of the Elder Dragons' inner circle, revealing that, indeed, the Elder Dragons *might* have reproductive organs. Hence, the wiki may be outdated and due for revision at the conclusion of the IBS.

> This is likely why we hear nothing about Glint's mother, or Vlast/Aurene's father. Elder Dragons - and high dragons - **by all indication so far reproduced** in a non-standard asexual method - **without need of partners**.

We don't know that. We do not have enough information to make such definitive statements. Until we learn more about the reproductive methods of Elder Dragons we simply cannot rule out the possibility that they are sexually dimorphic.

> **You may also note: Risen do not refer to Zhaitan with a gender at any time. Instead of using a pronoun, they use "the dragon" or "my master". And neither do Mordrem Guard for Mordremoth - where pronouns would be expected, they use "the jungle dragon". (If there is a pronoun use for them by risen/mordrem, it's likely a small slip - I even checked just now to verify and no major moment has dragon minions using a pronoun for them).**

Thank you for pointing this out. Did it ever occur to you, Konig, that the nature of Elder Dragon reproduction, including the biological gender of each Elder, might've been something that the dragons didn't want mortals to know about? Perhaps for fear that mortals would use the knowledge of these things against the Elders?

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

>

> **There is is much wrong with this comment.**

That's a vit harsh, Daniel.

>Least of which is that these are magical creatures that most likely **reproduce asexually.**

We know that Aurene hatched from an egg. We know that some of the Elder Dragons are male (Kralkatorrik, Primordus, *presumably* Jormag) and - if you subscribe to the idea that Aurene is an Elder Dragon - and others are female. We now have enough info to infer one of two possibilities: dragons reproduce asexually, such that their reproductive abilities aren't tied to either sex; *or*, they are sexually dimorphic. We don't have enough information to rule sexual dimorphism out.

> **"Mother" meant about as much to Kralkatorrik as it does to the Sylvari greeting the Pale Tree.**

If you were to encounter Kralk's "mother", who do you think it would be? *The Pale Tree?* You'd tell me that it was more likely to be another dragon.

>**The nature of corruption makes talking about "biological function" inherently flawed.**

You'll need to explain yourself a bit more there. I see no reason why biological paradigms are incompatible with the lore of Guild Wars.

> @"mezuzel.4987" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > A thought occurred to me: What if Jormag and Primordus are single-minded, perhaps a hive mind? That might mean that Bangar is referring to them both when he warns Aurene that "they're playing" her, "like a fiddle". The two dragons are secretly working together in a "good cop, bad cop" routine.

>

> Could be interesting - but "they" refers to Jormag, who doesn't really have a gender and thus is referred to with they/them pronouns.

>

> https://deconforming.com/they-them-pronouns/

> https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they

> https://www.grammarly.com/blog/use-the-singular-they/

>

Maybe. It depends on what Jormag means when it says that Primordus is it's "twin". If it is metaphorical, then Jormag may be an "it"; if it is familial, however, Jormag has a gender (note: I am using an archaic form of this word) denoted by the function of it's genitalia.

Jormag refers to Prim as a "he", calls Aurene a "little sister". Kralkatorrik called to his "mother". I suggest that the current story arc is as much about exploring the Elder Dragon family as it is anything else.

Moreover, Tom Abernathy's comment was about the sexuality with which Jormag *identifies*, not the biological function of it's genitalia. Tom's comment should be taken with a grain of salt.

A thought occurred to me: What if Jormag and Primordus are single-minded, perhaps a hive mind? That might mean that Bangar is referring to them both when he warns Aurene that "they're playing" her, "like a fiddle". The two dragons are secretly working together in a "good cop, bad cop" routine.

Another thing comes to mind. There are various kinds of twins. If my theory that Jormag is Kralkatorrik's mother is correct, that would mean Jormag and Primordus are fraternal twins. Alternatively, they could be identical twins, but that doesn't make much sense, as Jormag's and Primordus's models are too dissimilar.