Stephen.6312

> @"Psientist.6437" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > @"Psientist.6437" said:

> > > Tyrian cosmology?

> >

> > I see this getting thrown around every now and then. Can you please elaborate on what you mean by this and perhaps get into it a bit? It's terribly confusing otherwise.

> >

>

> Sure. It is a quick way to refer to Tyrian physics and the manifestation of Tyrian physics. The Tyrian universe seems to use gravity, the weak and strong nuclear forces, and electromagnetism. When I use the term I am referring to the laws governing magic and how it manifests. I think most people are using it to refer to things such as the Mists, The All, the Elder dragon cycle, and the Eternal Alchemy; large scale phenomenon that, if the Tyrian universe were realistic, would emerge from natural laws.

>

> A "real world" example of how the term is being used here in Tyria would be the term "Christian cosmology" that includes God, Heaven, Hell, Earth and the eternal struggle between good and evil. The cosmology of the Star Wars universe would include the Light and Dark sides of the Force.

>

> I have some theories for Tyrian cosmology. Magic could be a form of matter that reacts to, or is given form by, will power. There would be a quantum magic field and magic particles/waves. Or, and this is my preferred cosmology, there is a Will field and it is the effects of Will that we confuse for magic. On a cosmological scale, Will would form emergent structures similar to how gravity, the weak and strong forces and electromagnetism form structures. A sufficiently powerful Will structure behaves in ways similar to a black hole. A black hole grabs hold of a virtual particle at its event horizon where sheer forces inject sufficient energy into the virtual particle making part of the virtual particle real. That's the basics of Hawkings radiation. A powerful Will structure would do something similar but with more sophisticated results. Magic is what we have been calling the manifestation of Will being used to pull matter and energy from the quantum ground state or zero point energy.

Thanks for sharing that.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> It's not a point of view though and there is no basic problem. If the devs say something out of the game is canon then it is canon. There is no literary theory involved, no conflicting points of view or anything else. If the devs say it's lore...it's lore. That ends the discussion. They decide what is lore. There isn't a difference of opinion to be had there. No amount of paragraphs on literary theory holds value beyond that.

>

> The devs have said time and again that they consider any use of their official channels to deliver lore is intended as canon. Whether that is through web stories, blogs, guild chat, forum Q&A, books or the game. Where the grey area comes up is where the source is not official - off the cuff remarks to journalists, unofficial blogs, data mining etc and they have said that to be the case as well. Or if they are still in the conceptual stage.

>

> Anet set the boundaries of where lore and canon apply. That permeates outside of the game by their authority as writers and owners of the lore. That removes any potential for a difference of opinion in this context.

>

> If you disagree with it, that is your right, but it doesn't change anything since lore presented externally and confirmed to be lore...is still lore. No amount of disbelief changes that.

>

That's not how I remember it. Bobby Stein once stated that we are to "go with what's in the game". Relying on stuff like Guild Chat to help inform your opinion is good, but it isn't gospel. From memory Bobby made that remark because a video with developers was relied upon by the playerbase. Angel McCoy said afterward that such content was stressful and that developers were only human and made mistakes. Take that as you will.

> @"Psientist.6437" said:

> Tyrian cosmology?

I see this getting thrown around every now and then. Can you please elaborate on what you mean by this and perhaps get into it a bit? It's terribly confusing otherwise.

> @"Tom.8029" said:

> All of this killing dragon stuff was before we knew that killing them had drastic consequences. If we kill them now, all their magic gets released into the world and literally throws off the very fabric of reality. So, we need some sort of conduit. Something to absorb that power so that it doesn't destroy the world.

>

> All that prep for Zhaitan was before we really ever knew anything about them.

The trouble, I think, is that the dangers of killing them have never been convincingly presented to the playerbase.

We can _surmise_ from a range of different disasters, including the Thaumanova Meltdown and the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven, that mixing the Six Elements in strange ways can cause undue harm.

But therein lies the problem. Aurene appears to be mixing magics in ways that we never thought possible and have never been legitimized by long-standing in-game examples. Can you think of a notable, naturally-occurring example of a spell caster within the GW2 lore-verse who casts the magics of every profession? I can't. And it's this lack of examples that makes believing how she does this so difficult.

If a series of naturally-occuring examples existed, arguments could be formed demonstrating that the All has been trying to find a host in which all of the magics can comfortably co-exist. But we don't have that. Yes, we have Subject Alpha. But it doesn't practice water magic and it is not naturally occurring.

Then we have the other problem: Why is water the magical element that keeps falling-out with it's fellows? There hasn't been much said about that ever, really. Yet I can think of at least half a dozen examples of this phenomenon. I have my own ideas, but they're just that - ideas. What is needed is definitive statements from authoritarian NPCs. We had an opportunity to clarify that with Path of Fire and the consultation of Kormir. Unfortunately, development passed-up that opportunity.

To me, the closest we ever got to understanding anything about the EDs and the danger of killing them was from the books between the games. That's not a good sign.

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > @"WafflingMean.4351" said:

> > > > An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

> > >

> > > Necromancy falls into the domains of Grenth though.

> > > The Jade Winds power mostly came from the immense amount of Dwayna magic Shiro stole from the emperor he killed, so the Shiro incident can't be correlated with the Lichs.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Granted, the Jade Wind likely had something to do with Dwayna. But we mustn't forget the Jade Sea, which clearly has something to do with Abaddon. I think WafflingMean.4351's point is that Abaddon seems to be a recurring theme whenever we learn about the birth of liches, or powerful entities who hold liche-like power.

> >

>

> Abaddon is the god of secrets after all, so he most likely knows an assortment of taboo and forbidden magics and enchantments.

>

I think that you've hit the nail on the head there.

> The Jade Wind must be using some form of divine/ god magic, probably originating from Dwayna and somehow perverted by Shiro.

>

I have a theory about that. I'm working on it. I guess now is as good a time as ever to draft it.

> @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

>

> Abaddon was dead-dead by the time the palace was built though.

Afaik, Abaddon had been confined to the Realm of Torment between (presumably) 0BE and 1075AE. Don't quote me on that, though.

Palawa Joko built his Bone Palace in 757AE, if memory serves correctly.

> @"Slowpokeking.8720" said:

> If they let her take all kinds of magic to stay as the "good dragon".

>

> Seriously I think Anet giving "you can't kill more dragon" is stupid, it simply put the player in a very strange corner, you have to kill the evil dragon and find replacement, which could result in even worst plot. "kill the dragon and get a replacement" plot could easily backfire.

My theory has always been that the Bloodstone was created to be a substitute for the Elder Dragons. So I agree that having Aurene stand in for one or two dead dragons is disappointing. But, that's just me. Who knows, maybe there's something juices in the storyline that clarifies everything? Maybe the Icebrood Saga is the place where Anet lay it all on the table and explain why they need at least four Elder Dragons (the four cardinals) and why six dragons is unreasonable.

I think that they really missed an opportunity to tell a deeper story when they wrote the human gods out of most of the plot.

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"WafflingMean.4351" said:

> > An interesting thing about this and going off the theory I put above of Palawa Joko actually being some sort of spirit that created a lich physical form by possessing 'Ignatious', is that we do have a precedent like you say for massive disasters occurring with the creation of powerful beings like this. Khilbron becoming a lich is one, but in terms of the activities of a spirit, Shiro Tagachi is another. His presence alone was enough to create the plague in Cantha. So it stands to reason that a powerful spirit possessing a necromancer to create another lich could create something like the Scarab Plague.

>

> Necromancy falls into the domains of Grenth though.

> The Jade Winds power mostly came from the immense amount of Dwayna magic Shiro stole from the emperor he killed, so the Shiro incident can't be correlated with the Lichs.

>

>

>

Granted, the Jade Wind likely had something to do with Dwayna. But we mustn't forget the Jade Sea, which clearly has something to do with Abaddon. I think WafflingMean.4351's point is that Abaddon seems to be a recurring theme whenever we learn about the birth of liches, or powerful entities who hold lich-like power.

Palawa Joko made a Bone Palace in the Desolation, close to the Mouth of Torment, the point at which a massive explosion rocked Elona - an explosion that marked the climax of the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven and permanently changed the surrounding landscape. This cannot be a coincidence.

Why would Palawa feel the need to go in there? Why build a Bone Palace there? What forces were driving him?

> @"WafflingMean.4351" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > I think that you might be right about Joko's transformation into a lich being the key to understanding how to reconcile his "early" memories (i. e. when "Mother" was still alive and he was probably in his early twenties) with his "ancient" memories. Maybe you've just stumbled upon a detail associated with becoming a lich? Maybe you unlock a part of yourself that is capable of remembering your past lives? Perhaps this is why Joko _knows_ that he's entitled to the Primeval throne?

> > Look, I'm just thinking in written form here, but I have an idea: What if bloodlines function in a similar way to ley-lines? The difference would be that bloodlines represent threads within the fabric of reality, whereas ley-lines represent threads missing from it. Maybe becoming a lich allows you to tap into this, in a similar manner to the magic behind Canthan ritualism?

>

> The crackpot theory I'm going to go with is either Joko had the diary planted to mislead people about his true origin, or the person we know as Palawa Ignatious Joko is not the result of just one person becoming a lich. He may have been a being that predated a person he possessed, who is probably a young prince (and likely a necromancer) called Ignatious, or "Iggy". And a result of the possession is that to an extent their identities and personalities merged. It's worth noting that we never heard Palawa Joko's middle name (as far as I know) until the 'Long Live the Lich' patch. He seemed content to refer to himself as Palawa Joko, whereas the diary suggests that in his youth, Ignatious was the preferred name. Maybe that indicates some change in identity. Regardless I'm sure this wasn't the intention of the writers and they want Joko's story done with but maybe this is a loophole for people who don't want it to be over.

>

I'll take your theory onboard. It's stellar. Here's how I see it: the possession you think may be taking place _runs in the family_, through the bloodline. But "Iggy" was prepared to do more than entertain the spirit that we call Palawa Joko; he was willing to allow Palawa to possess him.

The thing about Iggy's mother is intriguing. The wiki writer thinks that Iggy was the son of an Elonian diplomat. But what if Iggy's mother was more than that? What if she was a member of the Primeval royal house and Iggy didn't assume titles of royalty until his mother passed? Maybe, in his eyes, she was the rightful Primeval monarch whilst she lived, regardless of whether she even realized this or ever openly acknowledged it. We know that the Primeval throne was the seat of both kings and queens, so Joko's deference to his mother would make sense from that perspective.

Curiously, Iggy says nothing about his mother anywhere else. It might be a sore point for him. I wonder what would happen if you made fun of her memory around him?

Things would probably get personal.

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > Why do you think Balthazar went after the Elder Dragons?

>

> because, just as OP, he was unable to get beyond the precept of "dragonz bad must kill" ;)

Lol. I thought you might have something else for me.

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> So far it's fine aside from 1 or 2 nitpicks..

>

> Having the Dragons become more than raging monsters does make them more interesting as well as puts the plot in a better direction other than "Dat thing Evil stab it!!"

>

> However I don't want to see Aurine become this Sue as you said who can replace them all.

> We've 3 dragons left to kill and kill them we have no choice in the matter, but we also can't kill them because they play a vital role in The All which is the whole reason we went after Balthazar in PoF.

>

> So we have to kill them to save the world but we can't kill them or we'll destroy the world.

> Add to that there are no more known Scions to use to replace them so atm we're in a pretty tough situation until we can work something out that will allow us to replace them.

> I really hope Aruine isn't going to just become the answer to this problem either as that would be a really poor story.. much like the whole "I eats da Lich so I no dies" thing which I still dislike as an excuse, specially considering Lich's are almost as absent lore in this franchise as the DSD is

>

> What they are going to do with Jormag is anyones guess atm but I have a feeling it aint dying anytime soon and chances are we might just have to bite the bullet and enter some kind of distrustful truce with it until we deal with that so called "threat on the horizon" that Jormag warned us about and that we would "Need!" it's help against.

> With expansion 3 confirmed then there's a good possibility that the solution for this threat and maybe even Jormag will be found in Cantha and the next expansion could possibly set us up for 2 Elder Dragon deaths/replacements in the same release.. There were two uncorrupted Dragons over there back in Gw1 which some believe might be candidates for new Elders in Gw2 so who knows.. just gotta wait and see.

>

> Frankly I rather enjoy the idea of showing up in Cantha with 2 Elder Dragons.. bet the Dragon Empire would soil themselves XD

Why do you think Balthazar went after the Elder Dragons?

> @"WafflingMean.4351" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Unfortunately Joko did not turn Kralkatorrik into an Elder Dragon. This is again one of those Joko Propaganda. Couple Halloween’s back we were provided a journal of Joko’s early days which show him being alive around at the time of when Mad king thorn was still living and a prince. I’ll post the link.

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Private_Property_of_P.I._Joko

> Yeah I did hear about that, and it really annoys me that they decided to almost immediately end what could have been an extremely good mystery. I know it's almost certainly useless but I'll hold out the hope that the theory is somehow true. Joko mentions his mother being alive in the diary meaning he's either not a lich yet or it was something incredibly recent. But they never do specify how he became a lich. Maybe he tapped into some ancient powerful being or something that might have existed on Tyria for a long time? Or perhaps when he became a lich he was possessed by something? So in addition to himself there's some sort of inhuman being within him that predates the arrival of humans on Tyria? But that's completely ridiculous at best. The only thing that gives the theory some credence is his knowledge of the Elder Dragons, referring to them as "the life force of this world". It wasn't really common knowledge that killing dragons was a bad idea at this point. Again I know there's basically no evidence for it and it's completely senseless, but it would make for such a good story. I think going out of their way to end that mystery was one of the worst decisions the writers have ever made. Ooo maybe the diary was a lie! I'm gonna hold on to that. Please don't judge my state of denial.

>

>

I think that you might be right about Joko's transformation into a lich being the key to understanding how to reconcile his "early" memories (i. e. when "Mother" was still alive and he was probably in his early twenties) with his "ancient" memories. Maybe you've just stumbled upon a detail associated with becoming a lich? Maybe you unlock a part of yourself that is capable of remembering your past lives? Perhaps this is why Joko _knows_ that he's entitled to the Primeval throne?

Look, I'm just thinking in written form here, but I have an idea: What if bloodlines function in a similar way to ley-lines? The difference would be that bloodlines represent threads within the fabric of reality, whereas ley-lines represent threads missing from it. Maybe becoming a lich allows you to tap into this, in a similar manner to the magic behind Canthan ritualism?

> @"Hypnowulf.7403" said:

> I can't stop pondering this because there's consternation over both what Jormag's gender is and whether Jormag's intent is for good or ill. It's interesting that whilst the Forsaken couldn't break Kralkatorrik from his torment with their ritual, they were able to break Glint from hers, and Aurene is able to resist the torment completely. I feel that the torment itself plays a big role in all of this, I think that what the dragons have done thus far is either due to the affliction of the torment or out of an effort to resist it. What's fascinating is is that Jormag might be going a bit crazy with being overprotective because she doesn't want anyone to fall to one of the dragons who is afflicted with torment, and due to being fairly out-of-touch (which I'd say would be easy for an Elder Dragon) she doesn't realise why bringing everyone under her protection with mind control-like persuasion is bad.

>

> "I'm protecting you. You'd want this if you understood what it was I was offering you, if you understood the dangers, if you understood what will happen to the world if we don't stand against the torment. I don't know how to explain this to you, so it's just far easier to opt for mental persuasion because you wouldn't be able to understand in time and I'm not going to limit your will in any way other than what I'd need to to protect you. Admittedly, some of my influence is making the mortal children xenophobic but once I have everyone under my sway there's going to be no 'them' to worry about other than the torment so that'll pass. It's just an unfortunate side effect of what I'm trying to do. I'm just tryign to protect you and you're too folish to realise that."

>

> In other words Jormag is the hero of her own story. She sees the torment of Primordius and the deep sea-dwelling Elder Dragon and she's preparing for what it'll drive them to do. In other words, Jormag may not be fully resisting the torment but she might be more akin to Glint and Aurene than we realise. That the torment is nagging at her mind may be why she's so ardent about this approach because she knows how dangerous it is. Whatever the torment was originally created for, it now seems to want to enforce the cycle of destruction and creation. It afflicted Kralkatorrik with great pain and promised him that if he ended everything the pain too would cease.

>

> It's looking more and more like the Elder Dragons are just patsies to the torment, something that Jormag wants no part of. Jormag wants the cycle of destruction and creation to end because that's standing in opposition to the torment. Kralkatorrik told us that Aurene is able to resist the torment for some reason and we know that after the Forgotten ritual Glint was able to as well. What if that's true of Jormag? What if Jormag broke herself free? Gender may play a role in this. The male approach to aggressive domination seems to serve the desires of torment better, so maybe that's why it's able to exert its will there more thoroughly. It's hard to say for sure but it seems like the more masculine dragons are all in with the torment whilst the more feminine ones aren't.

>

> It'll be interesting to see where this goes.

This might be an unpopular opinion, but here goes...

My gut feeling about this "torment" thing is that it's due, in part, to the overlap of the various magics. Right now we have been presented with the idea that magic is like light. So, it consists of red magic, blue magic, and green magic. The extent to which torment affects a dragon might be linked to the number of colors that it can combine. So, Primordus and Bubbles experience the most torment; Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth experience quite a bit of torment; Zaithan and Jormag experience the least torment, perhaps none at all.

Then there's Aurene. We tend to think that she doesn't experience torment, or that she won't ever experience torment. It's quite possible. As a hybrid dragon, inheriting traits from Mordy (green-yellow) and Kralk (purple), she has the genetics to help her metabolize torment in a similar manner to Jormag.

In fact, Jormag's true form may be similar to Aurene's; they may both be breathtakingly beautiful. Hence, Gorrik's statement that Aurene is some kind of new "prismatic" dragon is probably wrong. Jormag, like Aurene, is "prismatic" in that it can combine the various magics to generate an incredibly pure form of white light.

I guess the long and short of this is that Aurene isn't as unique as the Free Peoples of Tyria think, and that an Elder Dragon's ability to metabolize torment isn't just about the gender with which they identify. For Zaithan, the first dragon to fall, was definitely incredibly capable, perhaps the most capable, of the Elder Dragons. It fielded a large army and strategically worked toward specific military goals, doubtless to benefit both itself and it's fellows.

I believe that, when we finally see Jormag's true form, it will be one of the most amazing things that we have ever witnessed. It gets me thinking: Has Bangar seen Jormag's form? Or has he heard legends from others? Does he know something about Jormag that we don't? Perhaps seeing Jormag's higher form really would drive someone like Bangar mad for Jormag.

> @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> Jormag's energy opposes that of Primordus. We learned that a long time ago. Primordus, from what (not so) little we've seen of him to guess, is even bigger and potentially more powerful than Kralk. "Forging Steel" just gave us our first modern hint of Primordus' presence (or at least his minions and related energy) in the far north since the days when Primordus was sleeping by the Central Transfer Chamber, below Earthshake Basin in Frostgorge Sound (Primordus was how Earthshake got its name). With their energies in direct opposition, it's reasonable to assume Jormag and Primordus aren't on friendly terms, and their proximity to each other could affect them adversely. Primordus could be the "horror to come" that Jormag wants to fight...or just one of the horrors.

>

> With that thought about Primordus' size, it's also important to note that we've not actually seen Jormag in game yet, beyond a few vague scenes that don't really give us much to go on. If the size of Jormag's tooth is anything to judge by, we're gonna need a bigger boat...

Balthazar turned Prim's magic against Jormy's. Prior to his manipulation, players never encountered a scenario in which the (bound) minions of Terrestrial Elder Dragons openly fought one another. (Let's set the sylvari aside for now; they're a little different). That situation hasn't changed.

You're assuming that Prim and Jormy are their own worst enemies based on Balthazar's insight and Taimi's misunderstanding.

I think that I'll agree to disagree with your point.

> @"Ruadan.9301" said:

> Hello everyone, I want to talk story today. If you are invested in the plot, even though we are yet again balls-deep into Elder Dragon business - this is for you. TL; DR at the end.

>

> The recent release is stirring up a lot of questions in regard to Jormag and Primordus, the role of Bangar Ruinbringer in Jormag's schemes, and what Jormag may want to propose to the Commander. These are all valid and interesting questions, and as of the Visions release, I am starting to see the potential for some really juicy speculation. We have this much more to include in our analysis.

>

> However, today I want to talk about the plot of the last episode, Shadow In The Ice. Because there are some big implications there, too.

>

> **The story on the surface**

>

> The story of last episode essentially seemed to center about Braham fulfilling his "destiny of becoming a true Norn", in the sense of developing the ability to finally shapeshift into his Wolf form. Braham sought out to achieve this by absorbing the essence of three spirits of the Wild, who reluctantly granted him their powers even though they are corrupted by Jormag.

>

> The finale of the episode saw Braham using these powers against Drakkar and ultimately transforming into his Wolf form to fight off Bangar and Ryland and get his friends to safety. Braham achieved his destiny, and by wolf's blessing he can now shapeshift at will. A happy end, for now.

>

> But wasn't there something else?

>

> **Why Braham is in trouble (and we are, too)**

>

> The finale of the story had a lot of things happening. And some of you might already have noticed this. However, it took me a second playthrough of the story to catch something that may have been the most crucial moment of the entire episode. More crucial than Drakkar's death, more crucial than fighting Rytlock, and more crucial than everything that happened with Ryland and Bangar. Perhaps more crucial than Jormag's conversation with us.

>

> Let me cite this passage of "Voice in the Deep":

>

> The Whisper of Jormag: Braham, you earned all three of the Spirits' blessings. Why then do you still fight me as a norn?

>

> Braham Eirsson: What...what are you talking about?

>

> : Don't listen to it, Braham! Shut it out!

>

> The Whisper of Jormag: It was Wolf, wasn't it? Said you could take their power, maybe even become Wolf yourself. Yet here you are. Just a norn.

>

> Braham Eirsson: Just...just a norn.

>

> Rytlock Brimstone: Commander, you gotta...you gotta kill it! Quick!

>

> The Whisper of Jormag: Your whole life you've tried to become Wolf, but never could. Braham, please—let me give you my power. Let me help you.

>

> Braham Eirsson: Yeah... Help me...

>

> : Braham, concentrate! Braham! kitten!

>

> The Whisper of Jormag: Commander. It's finally time for us to talk.

>

>

> You realize that the Whisper focuses Braham, taunts him, like he did with Crecia and Rytlock who turned against us as a result. Braham does not turn. But something happened in that moment. And I believe that a deal was made.

>

> I think the writers were being sly here. Because with such a "lore bomb" as the following conversation between Jormag and the Commander was, we were bound to forget the seconds before.

>

> But what if Braham **let Jormag in?**

>

> I would like you to recount some of Jormag's whispers. The ones that even we, the Commander, heard during Whisper In The Dark.

>

> 1: You can't help them.

>

> 2: You're stronger with me...

>

> 3: I can show you the way...

>

> 3: Let me help you...

>

> 4: Take it.

>

> And this one, from before the Drakkar world boss fight:

>

> 1: Drakkar is only a vessel of my voice. An innocent. Svanir asked for power, and I freely gave it to him.

>

> 2: I have never in the history of this world given something to one who did not ask*.*

>

> This is it. Because Braham did ask him. And in the end, he was able to become the wolf.

>

> But Jormag doesn't make gifts. His corruption is based on an exchange, akin to a devil's pact.

>

> As Cloudseeker says in "Chasing Ghosts":

>

> Cloudseeker: Jormag's truth becomes your truth. If you desire power, Jormag will give it to you. And you give yourself to Jormag.

>

> This is the irony of it. We were warned, and we still did not see it coming. Not even Jhavi, Jora's granddaughter, saw it coming. She rooted for Braham, because of her faithfulness to wolf.

>

> But the faithfulness to the spirits of the wild may be not just Braham's folly, or Jhavi's, but that of the entire Norn race. I am talking of a really huge lore bomb, akin to the moment where we realized that the Sylvari were actually purified Mordrem. So let's talk Norn history, let's talk Jormag, and let's talk Spirits.

>

> **Part 1: A Burden**

>

> Deep in the icebrood-infested area of Asgeir's Legacy, we found his journal. A journal that should already have shaken Norn society to its very foundations by now. Except it does not, because, as Asgeir himself notes, the Norn can never know what he did, and I suppose the Commander is keeping his secret, for better or for worse.

>

> In short, to those who might not have read A Burden:

>

> Asgeir Dragonrender made a deal with Jormag. About a hundred and fifty years ago, Asgeir went to Jormag to slay him in battle and secure safety for his people. The battle must have been epic in proportion, it lasted for days on end, and in the end, Asgeir was losing. But instead of dealing the killing blow, Jormag offered a deal. They both knew that the Norn race would perish if it were to continue fighting Jormag. They both also knew the Norn would never just "exist at Jormag's mercy".

>

> So Jormag offered Asgeir a tooth. And Asgeir offered his people a lie. He took them south, along with four Spirits of the Wild, and founded Hoelbrak.

>

> The Norn of today exist because Jormag willed it. He could have wiped them out back then. In fact, he probably could have wiped them out until he was weakened by Taimi's machine. It is my belief that the Icebrood have never actually fought the Norn to the fullest of their potential. Both the Norn and the Svanir/ Icebrood are pieces on a game board, perhaps both of them not really knowing it.

>

> Jormag has been giving the Norn a fight they can manage, and he continues to play for time, creating ever more fodder for his army. He doesn't corrupt creatures by force. If he speaks the truth about what he did in history, maybe he never could corrupt creatures by force, he has always had to persuade. So his choice was between a huge pile of dead warriors or an army of willing ones. During those one-hundred and fifty years, the Svanir cult and the Icebrood became the greatest threat to the Norn people. But it is a threat that is meant to occupy. Jormag is keeping the children busy.

>

> Why would Jormag do this if he could have wiped out the Norn? Let's keep in mind what Elder Dragons usually do: Elder Dragons ravage civilizations. They kill and corrupt indiscriminately, consuming magic in the process. When they have consumed their fill, they drop back into slumber. Some of them go mad over time because they have consumed too many different magics. But what does Jormag want?

>

> **Part 2: What Jormag wants**

>

> Jormag's position is somewhat unique. If we go by the lore, Jormag has never, in his last ~250 years of being awake, actively sought to consume vast quantities of magic; at least this is not something we can prove he did. He has not truly carried the fight to the Norn either - they suffered from a blizzard caused by his awakening, they saw their territories being threatened, and they brought the battle him.

>

> Despite of all of his history with the Norn, Jormag has been a pretty kitten passive Elder Dragon. For all we know, he might be consuming only so much magic as to keep himself sustained - he is in control of his hunger. And from all the Dragons we know, he might be the furthest removed from madness, the exact opposite of Kralkatorrik. He seeks to be in control of the situation at all times.

>

> It is my theory that Jormag does, in fact, tire of the Elder Dragon cycle. He does not want to sleep, as that limits his power and his control over the world. So what is his goal? I am not sure.

>

> The most obvious answer is: Jormag wants to be at the peak of all things. Instead of just co-existing with other Elder Dragons and laying waste to worlds to sate his hunger, he wants to rule them. Not just Tyria, Jormag wants to spread beyond Tyria. He wants to rule the mists, and other worlds, and gods and dragons, and everything there is.

>

> That's why he expands with restraint. That is why he wants a real army, not a heap of mindless thralls. That's why he needs an alliance with Aurene and the Commander.

>

> The only real threat to Jormag is Primordus, because they are each other's weakness. If he manages to win over Aurene and the Commander, and take care of Primordus, that's it. The remaining Dragon would be the Deep Sea Dragon. I won't speculate much about Bubbles, because what do we know, really? But it's then one dragon against two, and their armies. Because if Jormag can convince the Commander to join him, Jormag can likely also persuade the Pact... or at least turn one half and make them slaughter the ones that remain.

>

> But then, for all we know, Bubbles might have the power to make the oceans flood all of Tyria, and is simply exhibiting restraint the way Jormag is. Time will tell us more about the Deep Sea Dragon.

>

> As we now know, Jormag is incredibly interested in having the Commander at his side. He wants this to such an extent, I believe, that he is willing to save the Commander's life. If Braham turned wolf because Jormag granted him this power at the right moment, then Jormag de facto saved the Commander from Bangar.

>

> Bangar is way less important to Jormag than the Commander, but he is an opportunity. Jormag still needs to expand his army, especially while he is asleep and thus more vulnerable. The renegade Charr are basically coming to his lair. If the Dragonspawn and Drakkar could already turn people, then coming to Jormag's lair will spell doom for the renegade army. All Jormag needs to do is to tell them that his power is theirs to command.

>

> Fortunately, the Commander has more experience with Dragons. He is not making the same mistakes that Bangar is making. But Jormag seems to have an argument to win over the Commander, too. And now he also has Braham.

>

> **Part 3. Braham, the Norn, and the Spirits of the Wild**

>

> Remember that lore twist I talked about earlier? Well, in a way we already knew that the Norn exist at Jormag's mercy. My theory that the battle between Icebrood and Norn is sort of a farce is a mere extension of that theory. But I would like to extend it even further, by claiming this:

>

> **ALL spirits already serve Jormag.**

>

> Think of it. We know that, like many Norn, Owl Spirit perished by fighting Jormag. The rest, is said, were taken, corrupted. But we know now that Jormag doesn't take, he makes deals.

>

> Jormag's truth becomes your truth. If you desire power, Jormag will give it to you. And you give yourself to Jormag.

>

> Braham claimed the power of the corrupted spirits of Ox, Eagle and Wolverine, and they seemed like they were fighting against Jormag's influence in giving him these powers. But Jormag doesn't force - he persuades. By all rights, the spirits should not merely be corrupted, the should be Jormag's willing champions.

>

> And if we take this further, what is to say that the remaining spirits like Wolf and Raven are not his servants, too?

>

> Because they aided the Norn in coming south? But that's what Jormag wanted.

>

> Because they grant their power to Norn as they go to battle with the Icebrood? But that's what Jormag wants.

>

> The powers of all the spirits are already at Jormag's command. Three more arguments for this:

>

> Svanir's power of becoming the bear was twisted by Jormag, indicating that Jormag commands bear's magic.

>

> Jora's power of becoming the bear was taken, possibly by Jormag, indicating the same thing.

> Wolf instructed Braham to take power from corrupted Spirits of the Wild that serve Jormag. This would have to mean that he also serves or works with Jormag.

>

> While in the Raven sanctum, Raven spoke to us, making us think about choices. Right ones, and wrong ones, and how sometimes, both options are bad, but one still must make a choice. This must not necessarily imply that Raven serves Jormag. However, it certainly made the Commander consider his options, which interestingly, if you are playing a human, already has an effect on you after facing the Fraenir in the sanctum:

>

> Braham Eirsson: Commander... About what Jormag said. We're not gonna take it seriously, right?

>

> (Pause)

>

> If human: : Uhm... Right.

>

> Conclusion:

>

> In the end, this is still just a theory. But if I am correct, a lot of exciting things could happen.

>

> - Jormag can further manipulate Braham to an extent where Braham needs to choose Jormag for good or Jormag will deny him the transformation in crucial moment, meaning someone will die

>

> - Jormag might twist Braham into a "Nornwolf", essentially Svanir 2.0., since Braham has already taken all the steps that Svanir has taken, which means we will have to fight Braham, and possibly kill him

>

> - Likewise, since Braham now bears the power of three more corrupted spirits, he might transition between Nornwolf, Norneagle, Nornox, and Nornwolverine, or he might become a horrifying lovecraftian amalgamation of all four (though I think that's a stretch)

>

> - If we want to avoid killing Braham, Jormag might try and make it a condition that we join him to save Braham's life

>

> - Should any other Norn decide to help us, for example Jhavi, Jormag can deny them the powers of becoming their spirits, as he once denied Jora, long ago, and might still deny others without them knowing it (they essentially just keep believing the Spirits don't deem them worthy)

>

>

> TL; DR as promised:

>

> - Jormag has begun to make Braham into Svanir 2.0., and the evidence is in the story

>

> - Jormag wants to break the Elder Dragon cycle so he can stop destroying civilizations that war with him and instead rule everything there is, for which he needs the Commander and Aurene

>

> - Jormag commands all the Spirits of the Wild and can deny the Norn their shapeshifting

Thank you for taking the time to put this together. I tend to agree that Jormag may have enabled Braham's transformation into Wolf.

My theory is that Jormag can help souls resolve inner conflicts (i. e. forms of torment) that otherwise prevent them from reaching their potential, whatever that may be.

The three Spirits that lent Braham their power looked like they were ablaze. This cannot be a coincidence. What better way to fight Jormag than with fire? If you ask me, Jormag doesn't want to fight Primordus - it wants to appeal to Primordus to help it fight off the threat of Bubbles.

Now I've always felt that the Elder Dragons are a hive mind. But maybe Bubbles is like the unconscious part of that mind? Maybe the meeting of the Terrestrial Dragons and the Aquatic Dragon reconciles this mind, yet three of the Terrestrial Dragons are currently out of the picture. In the past, the meeting of the Elders has always been presided over by the Terrestrial Dragons. But now the balance of power has shifted and the remaining Terrestrials may not be able to dictate the terms of how the mind of the Elders is arranged. Jormy and Prim may fear the rule of their unconscious, which is probably as full of trauma as that of the minds of mortals.

Anyhow, thumbs up mate. Keep up the good work.

Keep your pants on folks! I think that we should get soundtracks for each WvW season, year, or whatever.

Leave paw prints below.

Well, the best summaries of recent Tyrian history will be presented in the wiki, for each GW1 title, and for each GW2 Living Story Season and expansion.

As to the deeper stuff? My advice to you is to think of something that really intrigues you and to research as much as you can. Asking questions of this forum helps too, although it never hurts to keep your troll repellant handy.

Good luck, mate.

> @"ReganHun.2037" said:

> Hello Everyone!

>

> I was wondering, is there any lore about what is life force and what is the connection between it and souls? And how much necromancers manipulate souls?

>

> They have a trait line called Soul Reaping, which deals with life force. In it they have traits like Soul Marks, Soul Barbs and Soul Battery which indicates some kind of connection. Moreover the Reaper line has something named Soul Eater and in Death Magic their is Soul Comprehension. These kinda lightly indicates that necromancers abasorb souls to gain life force. But it seems very unlikely that a society, that worships Grenth, who judges the dead and sends them to their rightful place, would accept a profession that deny their god from what they believe is his. We also see in a lot of the NPC necromancers dialog that they respect the dead an they tend to the places that are deeply connected the death.

>

> Spoiler for Path of Fire

> The other thing is the Eater of Souls in the story mission The Departing. That thing consumes souls, and if we kill it, we gain a large pool of life force that is enough to restore a dead body to life. But strangely enough after its death a large number of souls get freed from that monster. So it seems the consumed souls either don't get destoyed right away, or they just get trapped in the monster for eternity and it gains the life force without destroying them.

>

> I know that the trait names can be mostly just flavor names and nothing to do with actual lore but I didn't find much material to work with. And that's why I'm asking the question here.

These are some important questions. The range of opinions about the nature of lifeforce indicates how little Anet have revealed about the finer details of necromancy.

If you want to truly understand necromancy, play Path of Fire and immerse yourself in Elonian culture. This is one human population in which necromancy dominates every other magical profession and underpins a functioning society.

I have some theories about necromancy but I don't have time to commit them to this kind of post, especially with all the troll blood blowing in the wind.

Hopefully a few more folks can provide insights into answers to the finer points of your post.

:)

> @"Brycar.2651" said:

> Ryland is Almorra’s double agent. Similar to Snape. Sworn to not reveal himself and stay close to Bangar until the end.

Now _that's_ a theory!

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> I was going to write a whole post on how Ive hated all this stuff on Dragons being tormented etc and all this attempts to heal, cure or humanise vastly ancient, almost alien creatures, but the point is no longer valid. Anet already - for me- ruined the mystique of the Dragons and the time for further recriminations on the point is now past.

>

> Bear in mind, we do not know if the torment drove them to be aggressive, but merely enhanced it to insatiable levels. Torment is the accumulation of magics over millennia which turned - at least Kralk - even madder and aggressive as time went on. The Forgotten tried to cure Kralk of its corruption, but the accumulated rage from the torment was too much defence against such an attempt - if any was possible anyway. We could never heal or turn an Elder Dragon. I doubt they began life as pacifists.

>

> Aurene is the only unique case and that is believed to be because of her interactions with the races from birth and how she was raised. And since GW2 is stated to be her story, the focus seems to be not on curing the Dragons, but on her being the replacement for them all (as ridiculous as that seems). We do not know if she is at risk of this torment and whether it could in fact turn her into what she replaced (which makes the whole preceeding story line redundant)

>

>

I wouldn't be so sure about Aurene being an exception. Kralkatorrik may have started out as a pacifist too, only to become more aggressive as he consumed different kinds of magic. We really have no idea how the Elders became so domineering.

Those are some...interesting thoughts. I have no comments to add at this point, although I might come back to this topic later.

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > > You're assuming that the origin of Tyrian humans hasn't been (at least partially) resolved. LS4, "Chaos Theory", suggests that the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is linked to temporal and physical displacement from the Crystal Desert, quite possibly as a result of magical fallout from the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven; the ferocious conflict between the "human" gods that saw Dwayna's pantheon cast some very arcane magic.

> > > >

> > > > In my opinion, the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is tied to The Exodus. Both events involve the wide-scale memory wipe of large swathes of humanity. That is to say, the spell that we refer to as The Exodus, possibly cast by Lyssa at Dwayna's behest, hid not only the persistent existence of mankind's gods on Tyria, but also the region of Tyria from which humans of the northern continent came.

> > >

> > > There's absolutely nothing in Season 4 that ever touches or hints to touch upon the origin of humanity.

> > >

> > > Nor is there really any solid suggestion of amnesia - the Orrian History Scroll talking about "Lyssa helped them forget the past" never 1) specifies what past it refers to, or 2) specifies who "them" is (humans? the other gods? both? a third party?).

> > >

> > > But nothing in Season 4, let alone in Chaos Theory, at all ever suggests an implied relation to humanity arriving on the world.

> >

> > It's certainly never openly stated. That doesn't mean that it is out of the realm of possibility. Of all the scenarios that make sense to my mind, this one is one of the most compelling.

>

> Me becoming the king of Tyria technically isn't out of the realm of possibilities either, doesn't mean that its going to happen.

Lol. Back to the Maguuma with you!

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > You're assuming that the origin of Tyrian humans hasn't been (at least partially) resolved. LS4, "Chaos Theory", suggests that the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is linked to temporal and physical displacement from the Crystal Desert, quite possibly as a result of magical fallout from the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven; the ferocious conflict between the "human" gods that saw Dwayna's pantheon cast some very arcane magic.

> >

> > In my opinion, the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is tied to The Exodus. Both events involve the wide-scale memory wipe of large swathes of humanity. That is to say, the spell that we refer to as The Exodus, possibly cast by Lyssa at Dwayna's behest, hid not only the persistent existence of mankind's gods on Tyria, but also the region of Tyria from which humans of the northern continent came.

>

> There's absolutely nothing in Season 4 that ever touches or hints to touch upon the origin of humanity.

>

> Nor is there really any solid suggestion of amnesia - the Orrian History Scroll talking about "Lyssa helped them forget the past" never 1) specifies what past it refers to, or 2) specifies who "them" is (humans? the other gods? both? a third party?).

>

> But nothing in Season 4, let alone in Chaos Theory, at all ever suggests an implied relation to humanity arriving on the world.

It's certainly never openly stated. That doesn't mean that it is out of the realm of possibility. Of all the scenarios that make sense to my mind, this one is one of the most compelling.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> The issue is that humans arrived in Cantha at three separate times (northern Canthans, then Kurzicks and Luxons at separate times). So if the gods took humans to Cantha from Orr, then why would they do so in batches years/decades apart? And the Luxons have a myth about a _homeland_, not a mere reststop from another orld, being across the sea.

>

> On top of that, humans who arrived in Orr/Elona are **confirmed** to not have come from Cantha but "somewhere else". So there is 100% a third location involved, where Tyrians/Elonians came to independent of Cantha's development.

>

> > (786 BE) Even in Tyria, we humans have forgotten where we came from...literally. All that is known of the origin of the Tyrian human race is that our species appeared more than 1,200 years ago on the northern continent. Humans settled Cantha even earlier, however, and appear to have done so on multiple occasions during what Canthans call the Late Pre-Imperial Era. Even less is known about the origin of the Luxon and Kurzick peoples, who arrived on the continent after the tribes that would become modern Canthans settled the northwest coast and Shing Jea Island. The humans of Cantha may have actually originated on Shing Jea, though this has never been proven.

>

> [...]

>

> > (205 BE) Though the news would not arrive in the Empire of the Dragon for several decades after the fact, the year 305 by Canthan reckoning saw the arrival of humans on the continent of Tyria. When news of these primitive barbarians did eventually reach Cantha, it was considered of little consequence. Perhaps, if the Canthans had seen fit to drive north and expand their empire, history would have played out very differently. But with the concerns and needs of an already sprawling realm, the emperors of Cantha chose to remain within their borders. And so the various Tyrian cultures developed, unhindered by—and for the most part, unaware of—their southern neighbors.

>

> [...]

>

> > (221 AE) The Empire of the Dragon had been a unified power for centuries when the kingdoms of Tyria finally made contact. The first ships to arrive on the southern continent found a culture much more advanced than their own, and in a display of wisdom that likely prevented Tyria's first intercontinental war, chose to make peace as soon as possible.

>

> [...]

>

> > Luxon children still hear stories of their people's original home, a nameless place far across the open ocean and lost now to the land-bound faction, seemingly forever. Some historians believe that new discoveries point to a Luxon presence in the Crystal Desert more than a thousand years ago, but just as many believe this to be a misinterpretation of the evidence.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

>

> In short: Tyrian/Elonian humans developed independently and without contact or awareness from Cantha (and vice versa) for roughly 425 years after Tyrians/Elonians arrived on their shores. Wherever the Tyrian/Elonian humans came from, it wasn't Cantha, either directly or indirectly. Given that Canthans, Kurzicks, and Luxons arrived at different points in time as well, it would imply that Canthans and Tyrians hold a shared origin point inbetween that of the portal at Orr, and arrival on their respective continents.

You're assuming that the origin of Tyrian humans hasn't been (at least partially) resolved. LS4, "Chaos Theory", suggests that the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is linked to temporal and physical displacement from the Crystal Desert, quite possibly as a result of magical fallout from the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven; the ferocious conflict between the "human" gods that saw Dwayna's pantheon cast some very arcane magic.

In my opinion, the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is tied to The Exodus. Both events involve the wide-scale memory wipe of large swathes of humanity. That is to say, the spell that we refer to as The Exodus, possibly cast by Lyssa at Dwayna's behest, hid not only the persistent existence of mankind's gods on Tyria, but also the region of Tyria from which humans of the northern continent came.

I've just watched a compilation of all the strange happenings in Bjora Marches. One of these happenings includes a kodan female. I'm of the opinion that this kodan is Ushers-in-Spring, Cloudseeker's Voice.