Stephen.6312

> @"mexay.3902" said:

> Several years ago, I created [this thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/6841/the-weapon-vlast-refers-to-during-the-sacrifice-is-not-the-spear#latest), which outlined why the weapon Vlast was referring to was not the Spear and was potentially the Staff of the Mists, or as some others pointed out, the Scepter of Orr.

>

> However 3 years later, 1.5 living stories and with an expac on the way, I don't recall seeing an answer to this.

>

> Was this just another dropped plot? Did anyone find the answer?

 

The Spear (Edge of Destiny), Staff, Sceptre and Blade were likely all created for similar, if not the same, purposes. Once you elevate the Edge to the same level as the other artifacts that you have mentioned, it becomes easier to accept that it is the "weapon" to which Vlast refers.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> > > > @"Vekale.7890" said:

> > > > Jormag does fear Primordius, proof is in the north part of Drizzlewood Coast. Those icy veins is Jormags blood from when he/she battled Primordius, guessing from map we can assume Primordus won the fight. It still isn't made clear as to why this happened but it'll most likely happen again

> > >

> > > Where is it stated that the blood from jormag is when they battled primordus?

> >

> > It's in the Shards of Jormag achevement. The wiki has a reference.

>

> DOesn't that just say the shards were from the battle, rather than the liquid veins?

 

Yeah, it does. I probably misread castlemaniac's comment.

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> > @"Vekale.7890" said:

> > Jormag does fear Primordius, proof is in the north part of Drizzlewood Coast. Those icy veins is Jormags blood from when he/she battled Primordius, guessing from map we can assume Primordus won the fight. It still isn't made clear as to why this happened but it'll most likely happen again

>

> Where is it stated that the blood from jormag is when they battled primordus?

 

It's in the Shards of Jormag achevement. The wiki has a reference.

> @"Bast.7253" said:

> > @"JekthAvid.1408" said

 

> I feel like it's implying something more substantial than them just going to sleep though.

 

I get the same feeling, mate. Maybe the title refers to the idea that dragons, as a species, were not, or are no longer, required to maintain the cycle. Or maybe it refers to the ultimate purpose of dragons and how no dragon, including Aurene, can deny it's nature or the intricacies of it's relationship with tormented magic.

 

 

> @"hugo.4705" said:

> Or.... as what is said above, the expension name is what we prevent. Since start I speculated that deep sea dragon ability is to brain wash peoples to not know about it: Not a single person is capable of saying its name.

>

> What if, the deep sea dragon is making its followers/ peeps under its influence believe that dragons don't exist and never existed? If every tyrian was corrupted, wouldn't it be the end of dragons, because nobody remember them? (Including forgetting aurene?) Is it to protect primordius? Afraid we will turn against aurene?

>

> Pay attention to the logo, above, the dragon can be clearly seen, under, discreet, hiding in waters.

 

I think that you're right, Hugo. The DSD has an ability to interfere with most terrestrial spell-casters' ability to recall it's name. The norn scholar in the Priory, who thinks that the Priory got the first letter of the DSD's name wrong, is probably correct, as Taimi is unable to recall even that detail (the first letter) when she tries to remember the DSD's name.

> @"Svennis.3852" said:

> Trust me, they're not killing off Aurene after all this lol.

 

Well, I wouldn't be so sure about that.

 

 

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > Why do you think that it would have those names?

>

> Likely taken from the Japanese for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azure_Dragon

 

Ah, thank you for sharing that.

Why do you think that it would have those names?

Hi guys,

I've been putting a lot more thought into the nature of the perceived time paradoxes present in this game. I think that some of these paradoxes are simple misunderstandings. Chief among these misunderstandings is the nature of time, as measured by the [Mouvelian Calendar](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mouvelian_calendar), and the reasoning behind [Varra Skylark's](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Varra_Skylark) comment at Arah: that the Elder Dragons were active roughly 10000 years ago.

 

Here's the substance of my brooding: Although Varra is a member of the Durmand Priory, she isn't using the Mouvelian Calendar to calculate time. I'm not _exactly_ sure why, but I'd put it down to either i) racial bias (Varra finds norn timekeeping practices easier to understand) or ii) scholarly bias. In regards to the latter, Varra has been studying jotun timekeeping practices, so it makes sense that she would adopt them when using jotun magitech (the telescope at Arah).

 

So what's the difference between the Mouvelian Calendar, a human timekeeping system, and jotun timekeeping? Well, it's quite simple: the Mouvelian Calendar is calculated using Tyria's _**sun's** relative position to the Rift._ Jotun timekeeping, however, is determined using _**Tyria's** relative position to it's sun_. In other words, it takes at least 3000 Mouvelian Calendar years for Tyria's solar system to complete an orbit of the Rift. In that time, Tyria complete's an orbit of it's sun roughly 10000 times. Hence, both the Mouvelian Calendar and jotun timekeeping are correct, depending on which timekeeper (the Rift _or_ Tyria's sun) you wish to refer to. [(I believe that Lord Odran's Map of the Mists details the relationship between Tyria's solar system and the Rift.)](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Mists)

 

What this means is that when Logan and other NPCS remark that Glint has [over three thousand years of memory](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Return_to_Camp_Resolve), they are referring to the Mouvelian Calendar. What is most intriguing about this timekeeping process, however, is that Glint's own remarks support Mouvelian timekeeping practices. She see's herself as _three thousand years old._

 

There's something in here. You all know my theory that the Elder Dragons are avatars of the Rift. I wonder if dragonkind as a whole originate from this region of the Mists? When they look into the sky, perhaps their vision, or their minds' eye, means that the dominant light source they behold isn't _Tyria's sun_ but _the Rift._

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > That's a rather bold statement, Konig. Nothing is really known about the origin of the Bloodstone. Your response is as much a theory as my original post. Still, the Elder Dragons played a part in the story of the Bloodstone _at least once_: Zaithan's powers were used to help sunder it into five pieces, if memory serves faithfully.

>

> We actually know quite a bit about the creation of the original Bloodstone.

 

I _presume_ that the majority of that information is contained in the wiki? I think, all things considered, that what you consider "quite a bit" is what I consider to be "very little". Even if we adopt your position and say that we know "quite a bit", it's a real stretch to _exclude_ the idea that the blood of the Elder Dragons wasn't used to forge the stone.

 

>

> > > 2. **The sylvari are immune to Mordremoth's corruption too**. This is why Mordremoth has to use loopholes by exploiting his own connection to the Dream of Dreams. And this is why the Mordrem Guard were able to return to their old selves once separated from Mordremoth's whispers.

> >

> > On the contrary, they're _resistant_ to Mordremoth's corruption and _immune_ to the corruption of every other Elder Dragon.

> No, they're immune to Mordremoth's corruption too. This is why Mordrem Guard have to be converted. They're not corrupted, they're brainwashed through bombardment of whispers.

>

> Fun fact: the word "corrupted" is **never** used by ANet on the Mordrem Guard.

 

The term "corruption" is used, though, in Anet's pre-HoT releases about the sylvari that have turned. Why should the mordrem guard be any different to your run-of-the-mill sylvari? To say that the sylvari are immune to Mordremoth's corruption just doesn't make sense, especially when dialogue between the sylvari PC and the Pale Mother includes very specific language like: "We've been immune to [Elder Dragon corruption]". The implication of such specific language being that the sylvari view _themselves_ as somehow vulnerable to Mordremoth's corruption.

 

The big question here is how we define "corruption". Is it just the ability to hear an Elder Dragon's whispers, or is it a change in biology? From the Icebrood Saga, it seems that simply hearing whispers isn't enough to corrupt and that some sort of biological change is required to confer corruption. We certainly see some drastic changes in sylvari corrupted by Mordremoth, suggesting that their biology has been altered. Faolain is a prime, and perhaps the most extreme, example.

 

The other big question is how you "come back" from corruption. Some sylvari have. We know that the cleansing of dragon corruption is possible, but the biology of the cleansed doesn't appear to change (e.g. Twitchy). So there's something for the player base to ponder.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > Who is Jormag addressing? Some think that it was Bangar, but my feeling is that it's actually Aurene. It probably doesn't matter either way, though. The point is that Jormag is familiar with the concept of reproduction.

> **It was outright confirmed by ANet devs to be addressing Bangar.**

 

I believe that you're relying on a comment made by Chelsea (?) on Reddit? The trouble with the idea that Bangar has been talking to Jormag is that, well, Bangar behaves as though Jormag doesn't have any interest in him. For example:

 

1) Bangar kills Almorra Soulkeeper, just moments after she has broken free of her original captors. Why would Jormag tell the Sons of Svanir that it wants to talk to Almorra in peace, only to send someone to kill her? Why not just command the Sons to kill her once they captured her? If Bangar and Jormag are _already_ in league, wouldn't Jormag instruct Bangar to preserve her, even if that meant that he would have to restrain her for the time being?

 

2) Bangar tries to kill the Commander, even as Jormag tells the Commander that it'll talk to them again "soon". If Bangar is in league with Jormag, why would he try to kill the Commander even as Jormag's will appears to _ignore_ Bangar, like he's _irrelevant?_ Shouldn't Jormag at least tell Bangar, in that very instance, to stand down? Shouldn't Jormag say that the Commander is useful and instruct Bangar to leave them unharmed, just as it instructed the Sons to leave Almorra unmolested?

 

3) Bangar seems to be trying to get Jormag's attention. Bangar states that he is "Jormag's champion _now_". That doesn't mean that Jormag actually agrees. And why does Bangar say _now?_ That implies that Jormag had a champion prior. Maybe it was the fraenir? The fraenir looks like he's been pretty well possessed by Jormag, going so far as to praise the dragon. Bangar shows no such loyalty. How can Jormag work with someone like Bangar when so much of the whispers and the behavior of those affected by them relates to _betrayal?_ I'd say Jormag hates traitors, Bangar included.

 

4) Although Aurene states that Jormag has left both the Commander and Bangar alive, she then tells the Commander that Jormag has spoken to them "at length" . She makes no mention of Jormag speaking to Bangar. Why not? Because Jormag probably hasn't provided Bangar with anything more than the whispers it provides everyone else.

 

All of this leads me to think that, although Chelsea wrote something on Reddit and a few have taken it as gospel, the vision with which we are presented has nothing to do with Bangar and everything to do with Aurene and/or the Commander. Jormag addresses the Commander as "Champion" and has never revoked the title. No _objective_ evidence has ever emerged that it has said the same of Bangar. (By _objective_ evidence, I mean evidence that can be independently verified by an ear or eye witness to a conversation.) Let's go back to the vision, for a moment.

 

The vision, aka the Icebrood Saga announcement trailer, has Jormag addressing a "Champion" whilst it presents us with a picture of Tyria, essentially stating that it isn't the enemy. The vision doesn't appear to settle upon any particular race, displaying charr, kodan, centaurs, humans, norn, indicating that there is no way to _infer_ who it is addressed to based on the races presented. The only way to infer who it is addressed to is to consider Jormag's statement that the "Champion" has nothing to fear from it. And the _only_ character that it has directly referred to as _"Champion"_ is the Commander, not Bangar.

 

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > I believe that Jormag is Kralk's mother.

> This seems fairly unlikely to me. I kind of feel like Jormag is being presented as a younger kind of dragon, plus Jormag identifies itself as non-binary - neither male nor female - yet Kralkatorrik's parent clearly identifies itself as female.

>

> So far, we have no evidence of pairings for reproduction (which makes me disagree with any notion of dual-parentage), and **the Elder Dragons _as a group_ have been labeled "genderless" and "non-binary" for the past 10 years, so it seems to me that any gender applied to Elder Dragons are merely a choice on their part - so Kralkatorrik's mother, whomever that may be, would no doubt be identifying as female.**

 

This comes across as special pleading. Glint identifies Kralkatorrik as male. Aurene identifies Kralkatorrik as male. Kralkatorrik identifies Aurene as female, then appeals to his _mother_. The sum of what I've just related _isn't_ evidence that the Elder Dragons are _genderless_, but that they _can_ be gendered. To treat Tom Abernathy's tweet that "Jormag is _non-binary"_ as _gospel_ is probably a mistake. If anything, I would say that Tom was trying to shake us out of our reverie that Elder Dragons are genderless _its_.

 

I think that you need to shift your position and accept that the evidence doesn't favor the idea that Elder Dragons are genderless.

 

> On an aside: The fact that Elder Dragons are labeled as "genderless" does give credence to the "cloning" concept of reproduction. However, given that Glint is drastically different from Kralkatorrik, and Vlast and Aurene moreso, it's clear that this isn't exactly the case. If we just focus on appearance, based on Aurene then the Elder Dragons' kin's appearances are very much determined by the magic they obtain / are hatched from. Aurene has a heavy resemblance to Mordremoth in her infant and adolescent appearances, which was the primary magic she had grown from. Her tail always resembled Kralkatorrik's tail quite a bit though, which would give to her crystal heritage, meanwhile **Vlast's crystals were gold much like the Exalted - perhaps hinting that he had feasted off of some Exalted/Forgotten magic (his memory crystals do mention that he on occasion "snapped" at them...).**

 

That's a remarkable insight. Kudos to you there, Konig.

 

> The notion of "magic shaping the **high dragon** lineages" gives a bit of credence to the theory that Drakkar may have been Jormag's scion, as it was shaped by the magic it obtained from the Elder Dragons' death. Shame that it died though, as its potential roles is ruined.

 

High dragons? I believe that is your terminology for "lesser dragons"?

 

> **But overall, I'd call this less "cloning" and more of asexual reproduction through magic**, both in nutrition and material to shape the body. It is often said that the Elder Dragons are "more magical than physical" so it makes sense that magic would literally define their appearance.

 

I see the two processes as similar enough to be the same.

 

> **If I were to toss out the notion of asexual reproduction among high dragons, then I would definitely argue for Primordus being the momma dragon.** Both because of appearance, and the form of Kralkatorrik's and Primordus' actions. Both are the only Elder Dragons who's _sole_ goal is "consume and destroy", though Primordus focuses more on the destroy (specifically: kill) than Kralkatorrik, where Zhaitan has "kingdom of eternal life through undeath" and Jormag has "ice fortifies, ice protect" and Mordremoth has "I am this world", where killing and corrupting is a means to an end, Primordus and Kralkatorrik are "wipe out all life" mentalities with killing and corrupting being the ends themselves. At least, their goals / ends and means while influenced by magical torment.

 

You've lost me here. I think this part of the discussion comes down to opinion.

 

As to whether Jormag is Kralk's mother? Well, the story flows smoothly if we _assume_ as much. Kralkatorrik seems to appeal to his mother as he passes and the only Elder Dragon seen to be doing _anything_ productive at the moment is Jormag. Moreover, Jormag openly states that the Commander "fears [it] as you feared Kralkatorrik". Why even mention Kralkatorrik at all? Why not say: "You fear me as you fear all of us"?

 

 

> @"Psientist.6437" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

>

> >

> > I don't know about the rest of you, but [Jormag's vision](

) seems to place the theme of reproduction under the spotlight. Jormag states that it's audience doesn't "fear death", but the day that their " _children_ will no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame". Who is Jormag addressing? Some think that it was Bangar, but my feeling is that it's actually Aurene. It probably doesn't matter either way, though. The point is that Jormag is familiar with the concept of reproduction.

> >

>

> **Jormag is telling us that death and diversity is the real enemy and they can save us from from both.** The dead Kodan can't feel the ice or fire of their coffin. The differences between Centaur and Human fuel their conflict. Jormag is offering to shelter us from death and conflict by turning everyone into Icebrood. That could loosely be described as their desire to be everyone's parent, but I think that desire is a cover for the basic Elder dragon motivation to turn everything into a version of their magic sphere.

 

That does make a lot of sense. I never really thought of it that way.

 

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> Crystalline Memories isn't our only source on Glint's memories. For instance, in Edge of Destiny she talks about her purpose having been to listen in on the thoughts of mortals. Now, there was certainly a degree of deception by not telling the whole truth there, but she seems to have a pretty good idea of what her function was before being purified by the Forgotten. Sure, we're told that her memory before than was fragmented (although if that particular recording was made shortly after the purification, it's possible that some of those memories returned over time) but, nevertheless, those fragments _exist._ It's not a complete amnesia, more like remembering parts of your early childhood.

>

> Ultimately, I think your theory has too many assumptions and holes to be regarded as the one certain truth.

>

> Particularly given this series of lines:

>

> **Kralkatorrik's Torment:** THESE CREATURES MAKE YOU WEAK!

> **Kralkatorrik:** They are her strength.

> **Kralkatorrik's Torment:** SHE BETRAYS HER OWN KIND!

> **Kralkatorrik:** She is the first of her kind.

>

> Look at the first two lines in particular. _Torment_ clearly disapproves of Aurene's alliance with mortals. If your hypothesis was correct, at this point I would expect Sane Kralkatorrik to demur without directly disagreeing, saying something like "I won't let you kill our granddaughter again". But Sane Kralkatorrik refutes Torment's claim head on: _They are her strength._ Sane Kralkatorrik _agrees_ with Aurene allying with mortals. Meanwhile, Torment obviously doesn't. Every action taken to prevent the prophecy can, therefore, be attributed to Torment.

>

> Whatever motivations led Kralkatorrik to be "not good" in the past, either it wasn't the vision, or he has had a change of heart since (possibly when the Forgotten attempted to cleanse him). The sane Kralkatorrik we hear in the instance does not behave in a manner consistent with "I don't approve of this, but I'll let it happen because I don't want to hurt my cute little granddaughter!" He behaves in a manner that indicates that he approves of what Aurene (and, for that matter, the Commander) is trying to do.

>

> What is also interesting, for the context of this discussion, is that even Torment has a concept of "own kind". Which I think also provides an explanation for Glaust having been looked after until her cleansing and subsequent betrayal - Torment views Aurene and Glint as part of its own kind, in a manner that it wouldn't for some random Branded lizard or devourer.

 

Draxx, who are you addressing here?

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> I put forward a theory not long ago that **Elder Dragons may not actually be capable of reproduction after ascending to Elder Dragon status**, possibly due to the changes their bodies go though when they ascend and the irrelevancy of reproduction to immortal beings who can create hordes of minions and powerful champions.

>

>**This would explain the lack of known scions among them considering how old they are and could also explain why they seem to prefer to construct their Champions like Tequatl and Shatterer rather than produce Scions to take on that role**.

>**The only Dragon/Dragonlike creature I can think of besides Glint that may possibly be an Elder Dragon Scion is Drakkar.**. but there is no evidence to support that connection other than Drakkar being Jormags oldest Champion.. and that alone simply isnt enough to go on.

 

I think that you might be onto something there. [A kodan remarks that Jormag has been molding and changing Drakkar](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirits%27_Refuge#Ambient_dialogue). Maybe the pre-existing method of Elder Dragon reproduction is to construct offspring from whatever beings and/or landscape is available? The procedure would probably be akin to carving a statue. ([in fact, the asura mistook Primordus for a statue before it awoke.](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Primordus)) Perhaps this is the reason why we see so many statues around Tyria? One famous story of carving a statue comes to mind: [the Tragedy of Malchor](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malchor_the_Sculptor). Malchor _tried_ to accurately reproduce Dwayna's form in stone but was never fully satisfied with his efforts. In the Strait of Malchor, [many incomplete statues of the goddess Dwayna litter the depths](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unfinished_Dwayna_Statue), inscribed with such plaques as: "And again, Dwayna, and again, and again, until I have captured your beauty, you. You will be mine! You will be MINE!" In the most recent release of Bjora Marches, [we see a vision of a mysterious kodan jumping off a cliff](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kodan%27s_Leap), something that reminds me of Malchor's plight and may well be a nod from Development, signalling that Malchor's tale is at the heart of the story of Guild Wars 2.

 

So where am I going with this? Well, what if the Elder Dragons _can_ reproduce, but not in the manners with which we are familiar? What if they reproduce by _cloning?_ That would certainly make Mordremoth's behavior during Heart of Thorns easier to understand. As you may all recall, [Aurene sends the PC a vision of Mordremoth cloning significant members of the Pact](

). That vision establishes that at least one of the Elder's reproduces simply by cloning. But what if Mordremoth isn't the only Elder doing so? What if, ultimately, most of the Elder Dragons that we've encountered _do_ use cloning, but they do so with varying levels of efficiency, such that their scions don't always resemble them, or only inherit some of their characteristics? Thus, Drakkar is Jormag's "clone", but looks sufficiently dissimilar that mortals comparing the two wouldn't consider them to be related unless informed of as much by either Drakkar or Jormag.

 

> One other factor that birthed this theory too is Aurine.

> With this whole narrative that we can't kill Elder Dragons without replacements it would be a pretty lame cop-out if we just ended up with.. Aurines all grown up now, she can just make more Scions to replace the other Elder Dragons... it's as bad a narrative as Aurine being able to replace them all imo.

> It would basically boil the whole plot down to "Hooray Aurine is our we win button"

 

I don't know about the rest of you, but [Jormag's vision](

) seems to place the theme of reproduction under the spotlight. Jormag states that it's audience doesn't "fear death", but the day that their " _children_ will no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame". Who is Jormag addressing? Some think that it was Bangar, but my feeling is that it's actually Aurene. It probably doesn't matter either way, though. The point is that Jormag is familiar with the concept of reproduction.

 

I believe that Jormag is Kralk's mother. But if Elder Dragon's reproduce by _inefficiently cloning_ themselves; by "molding" and "changing" their scions in a manner akin to a mortal like Malchor carving a statue, what if torment represents imperfections and inefficiencies in this process?

 

Anyway, let's get to the substance of my thoughts. We don't know if Kralkatorrik shaped Glint, or if he fertilized a female dragon's egg. What if Glint's mother isn't Jormag, but _Bubbles?_ The idea here would be that, during the previous dragon rise, the Deep Sea Dragon produced an orb, similar to the blue orb, but rather than _losing_ it to the mortal races, as is the case in this rise, it was successfully delivered to Kralkatorrik, who proceeded to fertilize it in the hope of creating a new way for the Elder Dragons to breed? They would no longer take scions from the "stock" of existing living beings, or form them from the landscape, but take of themselves through meiosis rather than mitosis?

 

But something went wrong. I don't have any thoughts on that yet.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > Here's the theory: Some of the playable races were seeded through the Bloodstone, before the gods found it. The sylvari were seeded through the Maguuma shard, after the gods split the stone into five pieces. The Maguuma shard was aligned to Mordremoth. Ergo, the sylvari are immune to the corruption of all but one of the Elder Dragons because they've benefitted from the spell, cast by the gods, that sundered the Bloodstone into five pieces.

>

> Chronology doesn't work there. The Bloodstone was one individual item when the gods found it. There was no "Maguuma shard" at that time.

 

Agreed. The Bloodstone was originally unified. The entire premise of the theory relies on this detail.

 

> The gods had it for an unknown amount of time until Year 0, where they shattered it into five pieces in Arah (we visit the site of its breaking in the Seer path). They put these pieces into the volcano Abaddon's Mouth, which centuries later then erupted. So the "Maguuma bloodstone" only existed for 1072 years before the Pale Tree was even planted, and was in the Maguuma itself for even less. All of which well after "the gods found it" since, in technicality, the gods made the "Maguuma shard".

>

> There are other issues as well:

>

> 1. **The Bloodstones are not aligned to any Elder Dragon** - their purpose is to hide magic from the Elder Dragons and given the complete and utter lack of the Elder Dragon's attention, even when they're **literally** adjacent to the things (Zhaitan had easy access to both Ring of Fire and Shiverpeak bloodstones, while Primordus literally burrowed beneath the RoF bloodstone, and Mordy's vines exist everywhere around Bloodstone Fen except _within the zone itself_), proves that it works even when fractured.

 

That's a rather bold statement, Konig. Nothing is really known about the origin of the Bloodstone. Your response is as much a theory as my original post. Still, the Elder Dragons played a part in the story of the Bloodstone _at least once_: Zaithan's powers were used to help sunder it into five pieces, if memory serves faithfully.

 

> 2. **The sylvari are immune to Mordremoth's corruption too**. This is why Mordremoth has to use loopholes by exploiting his own connection to the Dream of Dreams. And this is why the Mordrem Guard were able to return to their old selves once separated from Mordremoth's whispers.

 

On the contrary, they're _resistant_ to Mordremoth's corruption and _immune_ to the corruption of every other Elder Dragon.

 

> 3. **If Bloodstones influenced living creatures at such a huge distance** (the Maguuma Bloodstone and the Pale Tree are literally the entire jungle apart), then we would see dozens of other races with similar influences. **Practically everyone in western and central Central Tyria would have been influenced by the Bloodstones**.

 

The theory proposes that races are seeded through the original Bloodstone, or through one of it's shards, by sacrificing living beings atop it, as we see the White Mantle doing in both GW1 and GW2. Thus far, we only know that humans were sacrificed atop the Maguuma shard and that, briefly, they had contact with the Ring of Fire and Shiverpeaks shards too. Hence, although the pieces of the Bloodstone undoubtedly influenced many beings across the face of Tyria, notably humans (e.g. the Guild Wars), this theory proposes that such influence would not be enough to confer immunity to certain kinds of Elder Dragon corruption.

 

 

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> **The impression I get is that Glint herself is not so old that the vision could have come before Kralkatorrik was afflicted with Torment.**

 

Good point.

 

> Either way, we _certainly_ don't have enough information to point to Sane Kralkatorrik rejecting the vision as anything more than a theory. Especially since he seems to approve of the end result of the vision in the instance. Sure, you _could_ interpret that as purely being a case of loving his granddaughter despite his granddaughter doing something that he hates so much that opposing it has been his primary motivation, but I think that's a bit of a stretch. **It's _much_ more consistent with his behaviour that the vision is something his sane self approves of, but it came at a time when Torment was in control of most of his actions.**

 

I guess that's the rub. Given the opportunity, Kralk would rather dragon-kind be free of torment than ruled by it. I wonder, though, are dragons truly capable of good? Presumably, Kralkatorrik's propensity to do evil led to the problem of torment?

 

Maybe we need to think about how dragons get from being "evil" to "good"? In my opinion, this journey can only be realized through torment, for it is torment that holds a dragon's evil behavior aloft, a mirror in the eye of it's mind, revealing to itself it's true nature and driving it insane in the search for relief through the conception of goodness. Hence, Kralk's good side developed _after_ his evil side, a kind of child (in a manner of writing) of his torment.

 

> @"Psientist.6437" said:

> I have no formal training in quantum field theory. I am not even formally trained as a psientist. **I am just willing to play both on the internet.**

 

Join the club :).

.

> **I hope to make a case for an All field modeled on quantum field theory**. The All field will carry a force and be home to particle or particles, as wave-forms as discrete kinetic work loads, that communicate that force. The All field carries the force called Agent Affirmation and maintains a field wide emulation of the wave-forms generated by the other fields predicted by real world quantum field theory. The All field describes an agent as any sufficiently coherent quantity and quality of work; a quark, an organic cell, a meme, a mind, all qualify as agents. The All field actively seeks to describe agents and communicate agency. All field wave-forms, native and emulated, are very stable and rarely collapse. When life emerges on a planet, it creates increasingly complex wave-forms within the All field. The energy density of the All field around the planet increases until it reaches a threshold at which All wave-forms collapse forming an All star. Magic is the collapsed All field's emulated wave-forms, that have become entangled with the other force carrying fields. For instance, the All field wave-form created when a cat hunts, collapses and can excite the other quantum fields producing Hunting magic. When an All star forms, all Life on the planet becomes entangled with Magic. The physiology of the greatest Minds become entangled with the All star as central coordinates, allowing stable convective topology for magic particles.

>

> That was supposed to be the TDLR.

 

I applaud your effort. As a layman, though, I must say that reading the entirety of your post is hard going. This paradigm makes sense to you, but you've delivered it with so much jargon - both professional and personal technical language - that it makes it harder for others to absorb exactly what you mean. Heaven forbid someone who doesn't comprehend English, or whose native language isn't English, should try to make sense of what you've presented us with!

 

I encourage you to scour the Guild Wars loreverse in search of examples to help you bolster your explanation. Then, if you're prepared to go the extra mile, translate your paradigm into something a little more intuitive so that the silent majority can grasp it.

> @"Loboling.5293" said:

> Hey everyone,

>

> I'm redoing the personal story on a fresh character again. (So glad I deleted one pair of gloves during the tutorial achievements, and now its nearly impossible to finish :anguished: )

>

> Anyway, after working with Apatia, we found a strange orb being used by the Krait. The orb would block any new undead from forming, basically stopping the undead dragon from infusing his magics into fresh corpses.

>

> After the personal story, we never once revisit the orb and it's powers... I would think that it's ability to block dragon corruption would be quite useful during a jaunt into the frozen lands of the ice dragon.

>

> **Why do you think the writers forgot or threw out this plot device? Such a powerful tool forgotten and never used again?**

 

Hi Loboling! Thank you for your question. If you aren't familiar with the most important speculation to emerge from the [blue Orb](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blue_Orb) story, allow me to catch-you-up: Some, including myself, believe that the Blue Orb is a dragon egg, implying that the DSD is either female and searching for a male to fertilize her egg, or capable of [parthenogenesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis_in_squamata).

 

So why did Arenanet drop this storyline? Well, I don't think that they have. It wouldn't surprise me if we returned to the subject of the Blue Orb in the upcoming expansion.

 

Now, the question is why we haven't returned to the orb sooner and, when we do, why the orb would still be relevant to the overarching narrative of the game? Here's my take on the answer to that question, presented in two parts.

 

First, Zaithan's careful management of it's Risen forces around the blue orb suggests that the Elder Dragon is familiar with the hazards of mortals casting spells involving water magic. Foremost among these hazards is the risk of causing an explosion in the process of casting a spell. Consequently, Zaithan kept a close eye on the interaction between it's minions and bodies of water within it's territories. In [sea of Sorrows](https://www.amazon.com/Guild-Wars-Sorrows-Ree-Soesbee-ebook/dp/B005GG0MU6), Sethus tells Cobiah Marriner that the waters of Orr are _"as black as night, like ink's been poured into the waves. It never gets lighter, and the sun never **warms** it. Sailors have used Orrian water to **freeze** things even in the Maguuma Jungle's heat. Just one drop turns meat into jerky. A canteen could **ice over** even the fires of Sorrow's Furnace"._ Note that Seethus is ultimately talking about the temperature at which Zaithan kept the Sea of Sorrows. And though Seethus never directly states it, we can infer that the way to prevent spells from causing explosions is to ensure that the temperature of water magic used in a spell never rises above 0°C. In the past, spells have been cast using water that wasn't regulated in such an extreme fashion. One such example of a spell is recorded in the _Scriptures of Abaddon_. Therein, we read that the waters of the Crystal Sea _"boiled", "[t]he twilight sky shattered...stars streaked down [and] a maelstrom [was born] from which not even light could escape...transforming the sky above into a midnight void"._

 

So, all in all, the blue orb represents _unregulated, primal water magic_. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this magic, as long as it is wielded by the right spell-casting races. Presently, the playable races are not counted among them. The defining characteristic of the playable races is their _mortality_. Races capable of responsibly wielding water magic, however - most notably dragons - tend to live incredibly long lives and it is possible that their relationship with water magic may be the source of their longevity. For in the Realm of Torment we encounter [Mad Souls](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mad_Soul), inextricably bound to Abaddon, muttering something intriguing: _"A fountain of youth. It was a fountain of youth, and now I will be young forever...."_ What is this "Fountain of Youth"? Are creatures like dragons capable of accessing it? And is torment the cost of drinking from it?

 

Second, the Blue Orb may be a little more than just a symbol of water magic. If it turns out to be the egg of the Deep Sea Dragon, we can only wonder why it hasn't been well received by any of the terrestrial Elder Dragons. Mordremoth, one of the terrestrials, made a play for Glint's egg through [Aerin](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aerin), but made no attempt to secure the Blue Orb. Here is where we leave the beaten track and delve into a world of wild speculation. Buckle up.

 

I believe that the Elder Draconic Cycle is linked to the way that magic works within the All. For some reason, water magic just doesn't get along well with the other magical elements. This doesn't mean that the elements can't or don't mix, though. There are plenty of examples of lifeforms living on Tyria who represent the harmonious convergence of the elements (air, fire, earth, time, water, and aether), including the playable races. Moreover, [The Six](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls), a work of Orrian prose, reveals a way in which the magical elements _can_ coexist, albeit awkwardly. But there is one thing that defines all Tyrian lifeforms, something so insignificant it has barely been explored by the playerbase: _urination_. This biological process appears to be the only way in which the magical elements can agree to form life. _"Yes, we will join together, but only if water cleanses our impurities."_ The fact that so many lifeforms urinate indicates that, in my opinion, the Mists themselves have blessed this union. Now, there is another agreement between the magical elements that expresses itself in life. It is the minority, however, and when it becomes truly sentient, it is so offensive that most other lifeforms destroy it. An example of this hated agreement is the [Nightmare Incarnate](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Nightmare_Incarnate).

 

The Nightmare Incarnate purges it's impurities solely through _respiration_, rather than _urination_. In other words, the Nightmare Incarnate represents the magical elements using air magic to cleanse themselves, rather than water magic.

 

Understandably, this agreement is repulsive to every kind of air spirit, including Dwayna and, if my suspicion is correct, Jormag too.

 

I hope that this helps clarify your understanding.

> @"Psientist.6437" said:

> > I'm following, I think. Maybe, to translate your paradigm into a worldview most Tyrians can understand, we could say that the Elder Dragons are _possessed by torment?_

 

> **Possessed by magic.**

 

I agree. The Elder Dragons are possessed by magic. In my opinion, torment is just _dirty magic_, as opposed to clean - or pure - magic, which we encounter [every now and then](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Mystery_Cave).

 

> **My model for Torment is closer to mental illness** and I think Tyrians would have experience with mental illness. Mortal magic users would be familiar with their sphere of magic intruding unbidden on their thoughts. An elementalist may find themselves thinking about fire compulsively and a necromancer's first response to anything may be to raise a minion. All Tyrians would need to practice how to manage the willfulness of magic. Thankfully, most mortals can't command an amount of magic that threatens their mental health. Elder dragons don't have that luxury. By choice or instinct, they can command magic enough to make insanity or loss of self to magic unavoidable. At Elder dragon power levels, unbidden magic thoughts could become very powerful and potentially manifest as hallucinations. Perhaps a sphere of magic could appropriate enough mind resources and achieve a pseudo agency within an Elder dragon's mind.

 

Mental illness is one way of thinking about torment. I like this approach, because it's easy for players to comprehend the subject. The one distinction between mental illness and magical possession, though, is that medical "professionals" would tell you that real-world maladies of the mind have nothing to do with magic. For that reason, I think that you're better to stick to fantastical explanations of the phenomena.

 

> **I like the idea of the All as analogous to a star.** As life on a planet evolves and minds begin wielding magic, the energy density of magic increases until a magic star ignites. The most powerful species or individuals of that species are integrated into the star. They become central to the convective cycle of magic. New magics would be forged within the star. Elder dragons or something like them would be required and the star wouldn't need to be concerned about their mental health. It wouldn't need to care if the Elder dragons metabolized civilizations and most life. It wouldn't need to be capable of caring. It exists and could go supernova without its Elders.

 

_Now that's a thought!_ What if this is a plot point? An uncaring multiverse showing newfound regard for some of it's sublimest denizens?

> @"Psientist.6437" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > @"Psientist.6437" said:

>

> >

> > > The magic sphere may carve out a portion of the mind to inhabit. Hosting one sphere at a low power level may not pose a significant risk to the self as there would be enough mind remaining to run a self. However, increasing the power level of a sphere or increasing the range of spheres would decrease the space available to run a self.

> >

> > You've lost me here. Care to elaborate?

> >

> Approach a mind as you would a computer with finite capacities to store and run software. A mind free of magic would have 100% of that capacity available for "self" software. Magic, once introduced, reduces the capacity available to run "self" since it needs mind resources and it runs software that doesn't necessarily resonate with "self" software. The software for Jormag's self may have never cared about ice or manipulation but the Ice Magic and Manipulation Magic software is always running in their mind and imprinting on their "self". Jormag would compulsively think about luring someone out onto a frozen lake.

 

I'm following, I think. Maybe, to translate your paradigm into a worldview most Tyrians can understand, we could say that the Elder Dragons are _possessed by torment?_

 

What is torment, though? One way to think of it is as conflicting magic. That might be how an asura would describe it. Charr and sylvari might well agree with that. Humans and norn? I can see them going a little further, stating that torment is the presence of malevolent spirits (i.e. demons) within the mind of a being, whomever that should be. Dragons, though, are probably more empathetic than even mankind and so find themselves, more often than not, playing host to demons who offer them the very thing they're _biologically_ predisposed to enjoy: dark, twisted magic.

> @"Psientist.6437" said:

> Gods and Elders of a sphere of magic are narrative devices used to portray compulsive and pathological personalities where compulsively applying or thinking about the sphere of magic is the pathology. Tyrian magiphysics may make this narrative device explicit. **The human gods and Elder dragons may not be able to think for themselves or have complete free will.**

 

That's a really intriguing notion. The idea that, for dragon-kind and perhaps also the gods, there is no such thing as free will. It's a subject that I've long-contemplated. Could the desire for free will be at the core of Glint's motivations? Is torment _forced_ on dragon-kind and they simply want to choose whether they accept the mantle of responsibility or not? The mind boggles.

 

> The magic sphere may carve out a portion of the mind to inhabit. Hosting one sphere at a low power level may not pose a significant risk to the self as there would be enough mind remaining to run a self. However, increasing the power level of a sphere or increasing the range of spheres would decrease the space available to run a self.

 

You've lost me here. Care to elaborate?

 

> Hosting multiple spheres could require space to buffer them or spheres could repel each other taking up more space and creating dissonance. I guess I see "Torment" as describing the voice or "mind sound" of a sphere of magic within an Elder dragon. If magic reaches too high a level or too many magics are brought together in a mind, then Torment increases. **The human gods may suffer Torment as well but have ways to manage it. Perhaps being part of a pantheon is key. They work together, talk to each other, bolster each others minds.**

 

My thoughts, too. I have a theory about how they managed torment: An elaborate mating ritual between Abaddon and Dwayna. However, as we know, whatever blissful state the gods enjoyed was eventually disrupted when Abaddon fell. Why did he fall? Well, I'd say that the torment that he normally discharged through loving procreation with Dwayna eventually made him into a monster and he tried to _force_ himself on her, inviting Dwayna's eternal scorn. Without another lover capable of "filling Abaddon's boots", as it were, humans were screwed.

 

Could the Elder Dragons do a better job than the human gods? Well, they're far more ruthless, and loving or not, if they want you to help them deal with torment, it's mighty hard to refuse them their request.

 

> Jormag may only be able to apply a small portion of its mind to free will. They may be trapped in a way of thinking dominated by their spheres of magic and multi-sphere dissonance. They may even be trying to run a game on themselves, trying to trick themselves into ending the cycle. **Is the small sliver of Jormag's true self trying to trick the rest of its mind into dying?**

>

 

That's _deep_. I like that. At this point, though, none of the dragons have _willingly_ indicated a desire to change the way the cycle progresses. Mortals have had to bloody their noses before this possibility occurs to them.

 

> Aurene's unique physiology can be explained as long as we accept that her mind could effect her physical transformation during her ascension to Elder dragon. In Tyria, there is an obvious symmetry between mind and matter and **a mind less willing to cause harm could encourage a less dangerous physiology to emerge**. Aurene's physiology may give her an advantage but I don't see how it can completely protect her. Well, the studio could just say that it does but an Aurene able to defy what would be a significant aspect of the Eternal Alchemy would be hard to believe. Hopefully we see an Aurene terrified of her future self and the danger she could pose. Hopefully we are on a journey to upgrade the All bios or migrate to a new All form factor. Hopefully we aren't going to be asked to unplug it and then plug it back in.

 

You could be onto something there. Here's how I see it: Love has a part to play in this, but only in the short term. As you suggest, dragon-kind may need mortal help to progress to it's next evolutionary step and finally overcome the problem of torment. This may be the All itself, essentially exhausting the process of natural evolution and having to fall back on a fail-safe, a last resort, in which the minds of those who still retain them aid it in searching for a solution past this latest existential conundrum. Juxtaposed to that, there is the fact that everything has been ticking over just fine in Tyria with every other cycle. Is Tyria enriched or impoverished by the ruthless intent of hungry dragons?

 

A part of me has suspicions about Glint. Maybe she's got designs on elevating herself into a form of godhood the likes of which no Tyrian has ever seen? Not a human god, not a norn Spirit of the Wild; not a White Stag, nor the power of science and industry; but a Single, Almighty, Universally-accepted entity to which all Tyrians turn and whom all Tyrians worship. Complete obedience, no free will. _The thought is terrifying._

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> I believe the devs confirmed his torment is millennia old from the Guild Chat they did post episode 6. Absorbing the extra Dragon magic probably enahnced his pain and torment even further though, but it already existed

>

 

Thank you for clarifying that. I think this forms the substance of both Konig's and Draxx's opinions: Kralkatorrik had a pre-existing condition. You could call that condition torment, or you could call it evil (i.e. the _decision_ to do something that mortal races consider morally reprehensible). But, to my mind, Draxx hits the nail on the head: the lust for power is the root of torment. This conclusion makes Glint's advice to Aurene a little easier to understand: _"You will see, Scion, that absorbing magic comes naturally. But the power, its temptations...they exact a price."_

 

> > What I find peculiar is the fact that Aurene doesn't seem to be affected by torment at all, in spite of the fact that she, apparently, absorbed some of Mordremoth's essence before hatching. We need to try to explain that. Why should Kralk's portion of Mordremoth's magic be tormented and Aurene's portion of it's magic be "pure"?

>

> IF memory serves - Aurene's unique upbringing and link to Tyria's races is involved with her ability to balance all the magics in harmony. Torment takes time to occur so it is too early to see if it affects her and there was apparently dev implication in the Guild Chat of another factor.

 

Glint's advice to Aurene reveals what both [Professor Gorr](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Bold_New_Theory) and the Zephyrites have long known: Dragons eat magic. The process comes _naturally_ to them. Hand-in-hand with their ability to metabolize magic, though, comes _power_ and _temptations_. Glint's training indicates that she doesn't believe that Aurene is above the temptations associated with feeding on magic. Nor does her call to Aurene's "Champion" to help Aurene _share_ the burden of her nature make for sufficiently convincing explanations about how Aurene is _different_. Bonding with mortals isn't a distinction between Aurene and other Elder Dragons. The latter create minions, who, presumably, _share_ their masters' burdens. Hence, saying that Aurene is capable of _indefinitely_ resisting the temptations of consuming magic is just too far-fetched to be believeable.

 

Let's not forget that Aurene states that Jormag has ravaged Tyria "countless times". The cycle, as it is, is incredibly stable. What do you think the norm should be? The outcome that has repeated itself so often even Aurene can't put a sum to it, or this sudden _shift_, in which Aurene seems to be some kind of game-changing dragon? If you really want to know what's going to destroy Tyria, just think about Aurene and how she _doesn't fit_. Maybe the old way of doing things was better for Tyria than the new way?

 

Now, someone may say: The difference between Aurene and the other Elder Dragons is that Aurene forms bonds of love with her minions, whereas the other Elders just force their minions into servitude. That seems like a fair observation. But let's get real here. There would've been a time when at least one of the other dragons formed bonds in like manner to Aurene. In fact, Jormag's _persuasiveness_ reminds me a lot of Aurene's approach to _managing_ the burden of being a dragon. But, as some of the promo material delivered to us as part of the Icebrood Saga demonstrates, _"[mortals] will betray you"_. The Elders know that mortals can't be trusted. Aurene will turn, eventually.

 

Where is all of this going? Well, as Canach once[ remarked](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Be_My_Guest), maybe the Elder Dragons are suffering from a condition that is _biological_ in nature and requires them to evolve? They're dragons, and dragons are born to be _exceptionally_ **good at being evil**. They may begin life as benign reptilians, too small to be anymore troublesome than a household pet, but sooner or later, the unique nature of a dragon will catch up to it and it won't be able to control itself.

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > The issue with that "simplest motivation" is that, simply put, there's no indication to support this.

>

> Except there's _plenty_ of indication.

>

 

This seems like a difference of opinion. Mind you, you may both be saying the same thing in different ways.

 

> The indication is that, simply put, consuming magic is the common motivation of _all_ the Elder Dragons. They might all have secondary motivations, such as Zhaitan's kingdom of undeath where nothing truly dies, but ultimately, 'collect more magic until there's nothing left to collect' is _what Elder Dragons do._ I think that's a pretty strong indication that it's possible that what made Kralkatorrik "not good" pre-Torment is that there is some point at which Kralkatorrik willingly, and in full command of his faculties, chose to start consuming power at the expense of the world in general and thus played his part in establishing the cycle of destruction. We know, after all, that the cycle was already well underway by the time Kralkatorrik had the vision.

>

> And I think that's a motivation that makes more sense than Sane Kralkatorrik hating the vision, despite correcting Aurene about not actually being afraid of it, and appearing to be entirely approving of what Aurene is about to become.

>

 

I guess we need to know if Kralkatorrik had torment prior to absorbing aspects of Zaithan's, Mordremoth's, and Balthazar's magic. If he did, his torment may be the inner conflict that Snaff perceived when he delved into Kralk's mind. The outer portion of Kralk's self wasn't part of him with which you would reason; but his inner self, Kralk's Eye, as it were, was _almost_ serene. Then Snaff went and blew his chances of helping Kralk by thinking about how he gained for himself, saving his pride by passing up the chance of receiving an ignomious award from his peers.

 

My thoughts on this align closer to Konig's. I'm not dismissing the idea that the lust for power is at the heart of the Elder Dragon Cycle problem. I just think that the nature of torment and the lust for power are two sides of the same coin. Paradigms developed by different observers as they behold the same elephant.

 

> I've gone through the instance with every profession, and at no point do I get an "actually I hate this but I'll let it happen because Aurene is my granddaughter" vibe from Sane Kralkatorrik. Sane Kralkatorrik's overall demeanor is "this is something that needs to happen".

>

 

It almost seems as though we think that Kralkatorrik's torment doesn't reflect him at all; as though the side of him that we favor by "defeating" his torment, is the final authority on what happens next. But let's not forget that Zaithan and Mordremoth were symbolically present in the fight and they seem to have sided with Kralk's darkest self.

 

What I find peculiar is the fact that Aurene doesn't seem to be affected by torment at all, in spite of the fact that she, apparently, absorbed some of Mordremoth's essence before hatching. We need to try to explain that. Why should Kralk's portion of Mordremoth's magic be tormented and Aurene's portion of it's magic be "pure"?

 

Mordremoth knew about Glint's egg and, as we know, made a play for it. How can we think that it did this to advance Aurene's supposed "ascension", when upon it's death it cries, _"What have you done?"_. If killing Mordy was the key to hatching Aurene, wouldn't Mordy willingly sacrifice itself, especially when it has demonstrated sufficient presence of mind to try and effectively abduct Glint's egg?

 

> And from a narrative perspective, the revelation that there's one Elder Dragon who wants to end the cycle, even if they have to die for that to happen, serves as the wedge that opens up the possibility that Jormag too is serious about wanting to end the cycle.

 

I think that the passing of Zai, Mordy, and Kralk, has revealed something about magic and the Cycle, of which Jormag was either previously unaware or deliberately ignored. I would hardly say, though, that Kralk wanted to die to end the cycle. That choice was taken away by whatever magic was at work in him.

 

 

So, I've been doing more thinking than I should be lately. The substance of my brain fever is the sylvari immunity question, which has always been a conundrum that never quite worked it's way out of my head.

 

Here is some postulation that's a bit out there but _might_ just work: We believe that the sylvari are immune to Elder Dragon corruption because the Dream protects them. However, what if the Dream isn't _quite_ the reason?

 

Here's the theory: Some of the playable races were seeded through the Bloodstone, before the gods found it. The sylvari were seeded through the Maguuma shard, after the gods split the stone into five pieces. The Maguuma shard was aligned to Mordremoth. Ergo, the sylvari are immune to the corruption of all but one of the Elder Dragons because they've benefitted from the spell, cast by the gods, that sundered the Bloodstone into five pieces.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Aridon.8362" said:

> > Now that the bloodstone powering the Door of Komalie that prevents the Titans from entering Tyria is shattered, it's likely that the Titans will come back from the Foundry of Failed Creations. From what I understand the Foundry is a special location located in the Domain of Anguish within the Really of Torment that Abbadon was imprisoned in. It connects to the underworld which is connected to the underworld via the bone pits, both being located within the mists.

>

> Ignoring the fact that nothing indicates that the Ring of Fire bloodstone has an altered state (maybe you're mistaking the Maguuma Bloodstone for it?): not very likely for the reason that the titans are not naturally-occurring creatures. The Titans were created via rituals performed by The Fury, who was killed in Nighfall. The Fury was a servant of Dhuum, so if the titans were to ever show up in GW2, then during Hall of Chains would have been the best time to do so.

>

> Besides, even if some titans were naturally occurring in the Realm of Torment, it wouldn't be in the Foundry of Failed Creations which was a prison managed by the Forgotten - again, in Nightfall, it was cleared out, and the Realm of Torment was made into Kormir's Realm so it'd be likely that all other demonic entities slowly got wiped out from the Realm of Torment.

>

> There is the implication of Gorseval being a "natural Titan", but if so then such is very rare, not restricted to the Realm of Torment (or even the Mists), and wouldn't be related to the Elder Dragons at all (least of all Primordus).

>

> > Now I'm just taking a guess that the Titans must already have some sort of influence on a dragon, and the dragon I'm looking at in this scenario is Primordus. It's likely that the Titans that gave the Flame Legion their powers are coming back with a vengeance. In relation to Jormag, it's just one other big massive ball level of a problem to think about just to realize how bad things are going to become in Tyria.

>

> Why would demonic servants of Dhuum granted to Abaddon to bolster his armies have any affiliation with Elder Dragons? At that, why Primordus, who has zero relation to the Mists and souls, unlike Jormag?

>

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > Still, the theory is...that the Bloodstone is made of Elder Dragon blood. Only the blood of the terrestrial dragons, though. The DSD's blood was never forged into the stone.

>

> Doesn't seem very likely, for two reasons. First is that we see what happens when Jormag's and Kralkatorrik's blood is solidified, and neither come close to resembling the Bloodstone. Second, and far more importantly, is that the Seers created the Bloodstone with "divine resources" - divine magic is often made to be the _opposite_ of dragon magic.

>

> Would make more sense if the Bloodstone was created out of the blood of a dead god or something that the Seers once worshiped.

 

The trouble, Konig, is that no evidence of a "dead god" or "something that the Seers once worshipped" has ever been revealed. Whereas the evidence advanced in Bloodstone Fen is much, much safer. An association is formed within the minds of Tyrians, in which they think of those altered by the Maguuma stone in a remarkably similar way to Elder Dragon minions.