Stephen.6312

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > I thought the Bloodstone at the Ring of Fire was now underwater? When did it shatter? And who is now making the Titans given we defeated Abaddon and all his demons like Mallyx who oversaw their creation? I;d have thought Kormir ended all that when she took over the Realm of Torment and the Heroes vanquished the Domains.

> > >

> > > Titans are just constructs made from twisted spirits - how would they influence a supremely powerful Elder Dragon?

> > >

> > > Also, wasn't Gorseval a sort of Titan?

> >

> > I always thought of Gorseval as a proto titan-dragon hybrid, given that he was initially formed from spirits residing inside the bloodstone.

> >

> > Maybe the titans are spiritual relatives of the Elder Dragons?

>

> I don't see the Dragon connection?

Yeah, fair enough. Everything is based on conjecture. Hence I posed it as a question.

Still, the theory is...that the Bloodstone is made of Elder Dragon blood. Only the blood of the terrestrial dragons, though. The DSD's blood was never forged into the stone.

When the Maguuma bloodstone exploded, researchers at Bloodstone Fen noted that those exposed to the explosion behaved much like Elder Dragon minions.

So, in a roundabout way, the theory is that beings grafted through the stone, possibly including the sylvari, are somehow related to the Elder Dragons.

Just my pet theory :), nothing more.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> I thought the Bloodstone at the Ring of Fire was now underwater? When did it shatter? And who is now making the Titans given we defeated Abaddon and all his demons like Mallyx who oversaw their creation? I;d have thought Kormir ended all that when she took over the Realm of Torment and the Heroes vanquished the Domains.

>

> Titans are just constructs made from twisted spirits - how would they influence a supremely powerful Elder Dragon?

>

> Also, wasn't Gorseval a sort of Titan?

I always thought of Gorseval as a proto titan-dragon hybrid, given that he was initially formed from spirits residing inside the bloodstone.

Maybe the titans are spiritual relatives of the Elder Dragons?

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> I don't think there's any good reason to think that Rytlock was any more knowledgeable than any random Tyrian at the time.

>

> And that's his purpose at that point in the instance: to be the guy who's blunt enough to say what everyone is thinking, so that Kormir can correct him. He's hardly "objective" - as a charr, he's predisposed to having a negative opinion of the Six, and he shows this multiple times in the story.

>

> We have multiple sources saying Balthazar is weakened - Balthazar himself, out-of-game dev comments, the game mechanics themselves (if it was ArenaNet's intent, they could easily have given Balthazar the blinding effect in our original encounters and then had Kormir give us a blessing to protect against that as a callback to the battle against Abaddon) - Kormir just brings it all together in a nice little bow. As for why they chose to imprison him... it's probably just as simple as the gods realising that killing him is something they can't undo, and they're following the "never do a thing you can't undo until you've considered all the things you can't do after you've done it" principle.

>

> Honestly, your position is starting to feel not just conspiracy-theory-ish, but one that relies on explaining away too much evidence to the contrary to be credible. All the evidence is pointing towards him having been stripped of his rank as well as his power, and you can fly in the face of that evidence if you choose, but don't expect many people to agree with you. Does he still have some spark of divine essence? Probably. Mind you, so does every human, and artifacts of other races such as the Seers and Forgotten also employ divine magic. But he is not one of the Six, nor is he the true God of War in GW2's timescale, even if the playable races in the game were unaware of that shift until PoF.

I accept that we agree to disagree. And as you know, I don't expect to convince anyone to adopt an opinion as unpopular as my own. Perhaps the silent majority can steer this thread back on track.

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > > > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > > > > "They dimmed my light." Light often refers to 'divinity' when talking about Gods. The blinding aura when around Kormir is quite clearly caused by 'light'.

> > > > >

> > > > > "Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title, he is no longer one of the Six." Title being "God of War" which requires divinity. Dhuum was no longer the "God of Death", because that was taken from him by Grenth, which included taking his power. In this instance, both claim and title mean the actual divine power that allows the God to take the name. There is no previous instance of a God that has lost it's divinity still claiming to be and referred to as a God, or even on the same power level as a God.

> > > > >

> > > > > Speaking of Dhuum, him continuing to be so damned powerful despite no longer being a God is yet further justification for Balthazar to not have his divinity - Even without it he was still monstrously powerful, just like Dhuum was. Thus, he was in the same state of Dhuum.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I'm not in the same boat. I need a specific quote, revealing that Balthazar lost his divinity.

> > > >

> > > > And please don't get me wrong. I dig the speculation and the reasoning behind it. I just don't think it's quite as clear cut as it seems to some folks around here.

> > >

> > > I mean, the line from Kormir **is** a specific quote outright stating "he is no longer one of **the Six**." This tells us there are still Six Gods (otherwise they would once again be called *The Five* as they were in GW1 when Abaddon was kept secret, and is the name for the group that Kormir knew all of her mortal life and would have known for most of her divine life.

> > >

> > > The Balthazar line, which is the one ThatOddOne quoted, does indicate the same. The full line being: _" They abated me, dimmed my light..."_ - abated meaning to "make less", again showing in a direct manner that he was made weak by them.

> > >

> > > Then there's the visual showing in-game that he is not a god by the fact that he does not cause blindness.

> > >

> > > And finally, [to quote](

> > >

> > > _[...] it's important to remember that Balthazar's power level is not at the same level when **the other gods stripped him of his power** and chained him in the Mists. The power he wields in PoF is what he's gained since absorbing a bloodstone and Taimi's machine. [...]_

> > >

> > > And before anyone goes "yes, he was stripped of power, but stripped of divinity?" But to the gods, that's one and the same thing. If you go back to GW1, when Abaddon dies:

> > >

> > > > Kormir: "Yes I can! I can contain the power. This is the gift the avatars gave me!"

> > > > [...]

> > > > Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day."

> > >

> > > It isn't "I can contain the divinity" it isn't "His divinity". It's "power".

> > >

> > > The source of their divinity has always been their power, that which becomes volatile when killed, and must be absorbed to become a god. What happened to Balthazar's power remains unknown, but by removing that power, they in turn removed his divinity. Same thing happened with Dhuum - and though both Dhuum and Balthazar regained a huge amount of power, it just wasn't the same as their original divine power.

> > >

> > > **TL;DR Divinity = Power, but Power != Divinity**

> >

> > Look, Konig, I choose to disagree. But from your post, it's clear that you feel very strongly about your viewpoint. I find it telling that the PoF promo material described Balthazar as a "rogue god". That is how I think of him.

>

> What is a god? Dhuum is also referred to as a god, albeit a fallen one, but he is clearly not one of the Six, nor does he have the power of one of the Six (any more).

>

> Balthazar in PoF is on the same scale. He's a fallen god, therefor promotional material calling him a "god" is not inconsistent (particularly if it is coming from the unreliable viewpoint of what Tyrians thought before PoF started... consider that the Elder Dragons were also described as more akin to natural disasters than antagonists, and _that_ has certainly been shown to be untrue) but we have _multiple_ sources indicating he's been stripped of the power he enjoyed when he was one of the Six.

>

> 'Fallen god' can be viewed as a subcategory of 'god', just as 'dwarf star' is a subcategory of 'star', but there is clearly a power level differential between what Balthazar was as one of the Six and what he is in PoF. And we're told point-blank that he's no longer one of the Six, and that that body no longer considers him to be the holder of the portfolio he claims (as distinct from Abaddon, who was still the God of Knowledge during his confinement).

Well, Drax, I think your opinion reveals something that we can both agree on: to someone, somewhere on Tyria, he was a god. Zafira certainly thought he was.

Was he one of the Six? Perhaps the issue here is whether Kormir is the goddess of _subjective_ or _objective_ truth? I'd like to think that she's the goddess of both forms of truth, whether subjective or objective; but that doesn't mean that, when she states that Balthazar is "no longer one of the Six", she is speaking _objectively_. And therein lies the distinction: Rytlock is making an objective statement, unbiased in that he is a charr with no ulterior motives and no reason to fuss over politics. Kormir, on the other hand, is a _politician_, presenting the entire party with a perspective deliberately designed to skew the _absolute_ truth of the matter. (Kormir's position as goddess of truth is, to other races, a matter of opinion. And even some (former) humans, such as Shiro Tagachi or Mallyx the Unyielding, would probably want a word with Kormir about her definition of _truth_.)

Let's not forget that this whole encounter between humanity and one of their (possibly former) gods was a complete disaster for the remaining members of the "pantheon". Does anyone honestly think that Dwayna wanted Balthazar to go rogue? The gods have been trying to pass themselves off as having long departed Tyria. Why would they want to give the impression that they had lied to their worshipers by allowing one of their own, whether formerly or presently a god, to reveal himself to mankind? And what about Kormir? Kasmeer's audience with her can't have been something that Kormir welcomed. I imagine that it put her on the back foot for a bit. If Kormir had her way, she'd only see humans; other races should just _stay out of it_.

Here's something to ponder: If Rytlock hadn't tried to solve the Foefire problem; if Balthazar hadn't been released from his (in my opinion, temporary) prison, do you think that once all of this dragon nonsense had blown over, humanity would've been any the wiser about Balthazar's "dismissal"? If the Six, or the Five, or whatever you want to call Dwayna's pantheon, quietly reinstated Balthazar, how would mankind have known any different?

They wouldn't have. Balthazar wasn't replaced. They always intended to reinstate him. And, in my opinion, he was divine.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > I don't think promotional material is going to accurately reflect the lore. They can't go "he's a rogue god but not really a god because the other gods stripped it from him" in the promotional material because that's a spoiler, and intended as a reveal within the story.

> >

> > Alternatively, he is a rogue god from the perspective of TYRIA who know him as a god from all their history and lore so naturally they are going to continue to refer to him as a god even though that is not strictly accurate because they do not know any better.

>

> This 100%. His God description is because that is how everyone has always thought of him. He can be called a rogue God and not actually be an active God in terms of power and divinity. It's no different from calling him a Fallen God which uses the same terminology. but keeps him classified as no longer an actual God

>

I'm not sure what you mean by an "active God" as opposed to an "actual God"? To my mind, he was an active, actual, _independent_ god.

He reflected that aspect of humanity that wants to fight back against dragon kind. Even so, his behavior demonstrates what happens when the gods don't act in unity. They are all, ultimately, weaker for it.

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> I don't think promotional material is going to accurately reflect the lore. They can't go "he's a rogue god but not really a god because the other gods stripped it from him" in the promotional material because that's a spoiler, and intended as a reveal within the story.

>

> Alternatively, he is a rogue god from the perspective of TYRIA who know him as a god from all their history and lore so naturally they are going to continue to refer to him as a god even though that is not strictly accurate.

Quite true. However, it is a reminder that we must use our judgment to try to understand Balthazar's status in Path of Fire.

The material demonstrates that, at some point, we need to make a decision about what evidence we consider compelling and what evidence we don't find compelling. Your bias causes you to reject the statements forwarded in the promo material. My bias causes me to accept it at face value.

But let's be clear, here: I _hate_ the promo releases, the post-production interviews etc etc. I tend to treat them with disdain. However, this time I'm going against the grain, accepting that an _aspect_ of the promo material accurately describes Balthazar's status as a rogue god.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > > "They dimmed my light." Light often refers to 'divinity' when talking about Gods. The blinding aura when around Kormir is quite clearly caused by 'light'.

> > >

> > > "Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title, he is no longer one of the Six." Title being "God of War" which requires divinity. Dhuum was no longer the "God of Death", because that was taken from him by Grenth, which included taking his power. In this instance, both claim and title mean the actual divine power that allows the God to take the name. There is no previous instance of a God that has lost it's divinity still claiming to be and referred to as a God, or even on the same power level as a God.

> > >

> > > Speaking of Dhuum, him continuing to be so damned powerful despite no longer being a God is yet further justification for Balthazar to not have his divinity - Even without it he was still monstrously powerful, just like Dhuum was. Thus, he was in the same state of Dhuum.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I'm not in the same boat. I need a specific quote, revealing that Balthazar lost his divinity.

> >

> > And please don't get me wrong. I dig the speculation and the reasoning behind it. I just don't think it's quite as clear cut as it seems to some folks around here.

>

> I mean, the line from Kormir **is** a specific quote outright stating "he is no longer one of **the Six**." This tells us there are still Six Gods (otherwise they would once again be called *The Five* as they were in GW1 when Abaddon was kept secret, and is the name for the group that Kormir knew all of her mortal life and would have known for most of her divine life.

>

> The Balthazar line, which is the one ThatOddOne quoted, does indicate the same. The full line being: _" They abated me, dimmed my light..."_ - abated meaning to "make less", again showing in a direct manner that he was made weak by them.

>

> Then there's the visual showing in-game that he is not a god by the fact that he does not cause blindness.

>

> And finally, [to quote](

>

> _[...] it's important to remember that Balthazar's power level is not at the same level when **the other gods stripped him of his power** and chained him in the Mists. The power he wields in PoF is what he's gained since absorbing a bloodstone and Taimi's machine. [...]_

>

> And before anyone goes "yes, he was stripped of power, but stripped of divinity?" But to the gods, that's one and the same thing. If you go back to GW1, when Abaddon dies:

>

> > Kormir: "Yes I can! I can contain the power. This is the gift the avatars gave me!"

> > [...]

> > Kormir: "No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day."

>

> It isn't "I can contain the divinity" it isn't "His divinity". It's "power".

>

> The source of their divinity has always been their power, that which becomes volatile when killed, and must be absorbed to become a god. What happened to Balthazar's power remains unknown, but by removing that power, they in turn removed his divinity. Same thing happened with Dhuum - and though both Dhuum and Balthazar regained a huge amount of power, it just wasn't the same as their original divine power.

>

> **TL;DR Divinity = Power, but Power != Divinity**

Look, Konig, I choose to disagree. But from your post, it's clear that you feel very strongly about your viewpoint. I find it telling that the PoF promo material described Balthazar as a "rogue god". That is how I think of him.

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> But how does the Foefire save humanity? More to the point, why only Ascalon? Why wasn't there a Foefire in Cantha or Kryta, in that case? It's certainly within the Gods power to engineer such.

>

> The Foefire was a feat of magic performed by a desperate and mad human king, using an extremely powerful magical sword.

There's no harm in thinking that Adelbern acted alone. _Each to their own, I guess._ I have a theory about how the gods influence mankind and how, in turn, mankind influences the gods. That is all.

Why not Cantha? Well, Cantha is a little different. They didn't face the threat of the charr invasion, for one. I don't know why you've brought Cantha up? Can you please explain why?

Kryta? Well, Kryta turned to the White Mantle. I imagine that the gods had something to do with that, too. How? Well, you won't like what I write lol.

Orr? They are, in many respects, analogous to Cantha and the one northern Tyrian kingdom with which Abaddon strongly identified. They suffered a similar fate to Ascalon, but this time Abaddon did things _his way_. His fellow gods had very little to do with it. I guess, if you wanted my opinion, Abaddon did what he did because he was horrified by the Foefire and it's effects on mankind.

EDIT: I am getting my chronology mixed up here. Please disregard this comment.

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> It does feel a bit conspiracy-theory-ish, and I don't really see any reason to think _why_ the decision to demote Balthazar would necessarily impact on humans in Tyria when the gods are specifically looking to _reduce_ their presence and impact on Tyria.

>

I accept that. It can come across as a conspiracy theory. I have previously outlined another theory that the Exodus was just one of Lyssa's spells and that the human gods have very personal stakes in the outcome of Tyria's war against the dragons. Hence, Balthazar used Lyssa's mirror to defuse her spell and act within Tyria without being detected. Kormir didn't have the luxury of preventing an audience with Kasmeer because she wasn't part of the pantheon when Lyssa cast the Exodus spell.

And therein lies the big question that you're ultimately posing: Why would the gods hang around, casting a spell that makes it seem like they departed? Why not just leave? Well, the theory is that they sustain themselves in and through humanity. They are so deeply entwined with humanity that they are always present with them. So they need to find a way to prevent humanity from appealing to them in order to avoid being bound by mankind's will.

The idea here is that our knowledge of the human gods is deliberately vague and that's how they want it to remain. But one thing that settles in my mind is the idea that, if humanity's prayers reach a kind of _critical mass_, the corresponding god to whom such prayers are directed _is compelled_ to intervene. Hence, they want to reduce the number and specificity of prayers offered to them.

> Saying that the gods were responsible for the Foefire in particular flies in the face of the observation that one of the primary motivations for the gods withdrawing was that they realised they couldn't fight on Tyria without causing more collateral damage than they were willing to accept, and Balthazar's disgrace came because he refused to accept this judgement and wanted to fight the dragons regardless of what that would do to Tyria. Why would the others initiate another disaster when their whole reason for leaving was to avoid exactly that?

A fair point. The gods didn't cause the Foefire on a whim. My theory is that their decision came at great personal cost and reflected their desire to protect humanity, especially now that Balthazar was no longer _actively_ intervening in humanity's conflicts. My theory is that Abaddon and Balthazar both act as a kind of immune system against mankind's enemies. With the loss of Abaddon, humans found themselves susceptible to such things as the Scarab Plague, as Abaddon no longer protected humanity from diseases and illnesses contracted through mingling with alien races (e.g. the Forgotten). And, of course, once Balthazar was "dismissed", the last hope for humanity prevailing against, or defending themselves from, mortal enemies like the charr died with his binding. (Think of Balthazar being chained in the same way that you think of Abaddon being chained. The chains with which Balthazar was bound represent his inability to _intervene_.)

When Balthazar was _acting_ God of War, his position within the _political entity_ that we call "The Six" was signified by humanity's possession of both Magdaer and Sohothin and, of course, a human king crowned in Ascalon. When Balthazar was dismissed, Sohothin passed out of human hands and Adelbern's line, his bloodline, died with him.

Why did the gods cause the Foefire? To save humanity. They did so when Doric, another human king, appealed to them. Don't you think that, when Adelbern, Doric's distant relative, also appealed to them to preserve his peoples' souls from consumption by the charr, that the gods wouldn't also intervene?

Humans are the gods chosen race.

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> That is a very odd take on it with absolutely nothing to back it up.

>

> How do you draw a connection between the Gods and the Foefire?

>

> How do you assume that the Gods 'prefer human lifeforce', or even consume magic at all? There is no evidence that they do. Balthazar only needed to because he was depowered by the other Gods.

>

> Why do you assume the Gods are some kind of grand pantheon of villains?

>

> Kormir directly says "No." to Rytlock, so Rytlock IS wrong about saying Balthazar is one of the Six.

>

> There is a lot wrong with your post.

Fair enough, mate. It's certainly not a conventional opinion. Take it or leave it.

> @"Dustfinger.9510" said:

> > @"Kossage.9072" said:

>

> > So, summa summarum: Balthazar is a former god (assuming there are no lore discrepancies) stripped of his power so he's no longer a full god or member of the Six. However, as an entity of magic (due to the way gods seem to be created via the death of a mortal shell if Koss's writings on Kormir are to be believed as I explained in my post above) he still has a remnant/spark of his native divine magic within him that allowed him to pull off all his crazy stunts in S3 and PoF (manifesting Temar and Tegon, inserting himself into the stream in Taimi's machine, summoning dire generators etc., and manifesting his greatsword after he had gotten enough Bloodstone and dragon juice inside himself) even though he didn't regain his full god abilities such as the blinding effect and why he was so "easily" defeated in PoF.

>

> I gotcha. We are on the same page. Balthazaar seems to have been relegated to our traditional role of "fallen god" or "old god". A god who used to reign as the top dog over a particular element or ideal but is has been overthrown/replaced by another god who now holds the "official" title as "god of X". Much like the Titans before the Olympians or any number of stories about an ancient god who bides his time waiting to return to power.

>

I'm in general agreement with statements like: Balthazar is _a_ god and/or that he's divine.

Here's my take on things: Kormir states that she was one of the Six when the call was made to dismiss Balthazar. That means that the decision was made sometime after 1075AE.

The Sixs' decision must've affected humanity somehow. The most likely outcome of their decision, therefore, is the Foefire (I.e. the decision to chain Balthy was made around 1090AE). Now the Six may have been behind the Foefire, or perhaps just Balthy. But the idea is that, when Adelbern handles Magdaer in Ghosts of Ascalon, he is unwittingly being influenced by events in the god realms. Either all of the gods, or just the Big Five, guide Adelbern to cast the Foefire spell.

Why? Here's the theory: The human gods feed on magic. They can work with quite a few kinds of magic, but they prefer human lifeforce. Still, some of the gods, such as Melandru, aren't nearly as refined. She consumes alien lifeforce too. Hence, the gods cast the Foefire through Adelbern so that, in the absence of the god of war directly guiding humanity's wars against it's enemies, the gods would still have a steady supply of magic to feed upon. The Ghosts of Ascalon would harvest lifeforce from mankind's mortal enemies: the feral charr.

But things haven't quite gone to plan. The charr have been finding ways to subvert the Ascalonian ghost army and the gods' food supply, alien lifeforce, has been lean.

Now onto Balthy's divinity. The sword Sohothin is linked to Balthy _somehow_. When Rytlock wants to solve the ghost problem in Ascalon and attempts a ritual with that in mind, the sword makes it's way back to Balthy. Rytlock helps him and Balthy even goes so far as the call Rytlock his friend. In Rytlock's requiem, the charr waxes on about his attachment to it. What does all of this mean? Well, if we believe that candidates for the position of god of war have wielded, or do wield, Sohothin, shouldn't it follow that those candidates would no longer view Balthazar as the god of war?

But what does Rytlock do? He states that "Balthazar is one of the Six". (Curious, right? I mean, he's a charr, why even acknowledge Balthazar at all?) And to whom does he state it? The Goddess of Truth. Why? Because _he's telling the truth_. Balthazar was still the god of war. Kormir never explicitly said that Balthazar wasn't the god of war, just that he had been stripped of a few things, including his title, claim and so on.

And why not do that with your god of war? You know, we think that another god of war wouldn't be as fanatical as Balthazar, but don't be so sure. Balthy may have been the most able god of war mankind has ever had. Moreover, everyone assumes that when some big bad dragons turn up the god of war would _willingly_ pass up the opportunity to fight them. Really? In reality Dwayna's pantheon knew that, whoever their god of war was, he'd likely go and get himself KILLED fighting the dragons if they didn't do something about it.

So they chained him up to keep him from doing anything rash. But something "beyond" even the gods intervened and set Balthy on a collision course with Tyria's deadliest does.

When Zafira notes Balthy's odd vibe, this isn't an indication that he is no longer a god. She is _sensing the disharmony within the human pantheon_ through the turmoil in her soul. Note, too, that after Balthazar passes, she remains _loyal to his memory_, because, you know, he _hasn't been replaced_.

So what would've happened if the gods' plan had worked? Balthy would've been reinstated.

But that's just too bad, now, isn't it?

Love these ideas!

A few thoughts from me:

I would like us to be able to choose at least 5 weapon skills for each weapon attack. So, choose one of five different kinds of autoattack for, say, Greatsword; five different kinds of attack 2 and so on and so forth. Each attack will have differences. Attack speeds, cooldowns, combos ETC, unique to each profession.

A new mastery system will be developed for this system, similar to but independent of elite specializations.

Players will also be able to craft ammo and arrows for their guns and bows; they'll also craft throwing daggers for dagger throwing skills. The kind of ammo, arrows and daggers that they craft will bring different effects to their attacks. Maybe bleeding, maybe torment. More of what we have, but giving the player more input into their skill choices.

Ammo, arrows and throwing daggers etc will be infinite (they wont run out), but they get loaded or notched into a weapon as an upgrade, similar to sigils. Unlike sigils, however, they will only trigger when certain kinds of attack are used. For example, if a rifle wielder fires their weaoon, their ammo effect may proc. But if they smack someone with the stock of the gun, the ammo effect wont proc.

My 2cents.

> @"Project exa.3204" said:

> Glad I wasn't the only one thinking this! lol

>

>

Yeah, big lolz right? I always like theories about the bloodstone. Maybe if you've got some you should start a new thread?

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> "They dimmed my light." Light often refers to 'divinity' when talking about Gods. The blinding aura when around Kormir is quite clearly caused by 'light'.

>

> "Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title, he is no longer one of the Six." Title being "God of War" which requires divinity. Dhuum was no longer the "God of Death", because that was taken from him by Grenth, which included taking his power. In this instance, both claim and title mean the actual divine power that allows the God to take the name. There is no previous instance of a God that has lost it's divinity still claiming to be and referred to as a God, or even on the same power level as a God.

>

> Speaking of Dhuum, him continuing to be so damned powerful despite no longer being a God is yet further justification for Balthazar to not have his divinity - Even without it he was still monstrously powerful, just like Dhuum was. Thus, he was in the same state of Dhuum.

>

>

I'm not in the same boat. I need a specific quote, revealing that Balthazar lost his divinity.

And please don't get me wrong. I dig the speculation and the reasoning behind it. I just don't think it's quite as clear cut as it seems to some folks around here.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Dustfinger.9510" said:

> > > @"Kossage.9072" said:

> >

> > > If the gods did in fact take away Balthy's divinity, though, we then run into an important story detail that's yet to be addressed (and why I found Jessica Price's possibly mistaken statements about Aurene being planned to become the new god of war troubling): we know from Balthazar and Abaddon's deaths that the unleashed divine power requires a vessel. If Balthazar was no longer a god, someone must've already replaced him in the pantheon, especially as Kormir referred to the current pantheon specifically as the Six rather than the Five: "He is no longer one of the Six." One could argue that this is simply ambiguous writing and that no longer being one of the Six implies that the current pantheon is simply the Five now. We know from dev statements and from Kormir's alternate line in S4Ep1 Daybreak trailer that the "Facing the Truth" instance went through several rewrites during the curious PoF rewrites that even led to the recording of newly written lines, so this line may have been more straightforward in the previous recording such as the alternate line we heard in Daybreak trailer that explained the gods' reason for abandoning Tyria more clearly than the shipped line in PoF.

> >

> >

> > He was stripped of his claim, title and power. This would align with losing his place as one of the six but he may still have retained divinity as a lesser or demi-god. This would explain his ability to wield super powers while also make a path back to full power possible as was his plan. If this is the case evidenced by his powers and plan, the blank slate theory would need to be tweeked.

>

> It was confirmed he didn't have divinity by himself, Kormir, and ANet. Like how he didn't blind the player like Kormir did.

>

> The question is on "what happened to his divinity".

Where does Balthazar openly state that he doesn't have divinity? Or Kormir, or even Anet? I need to pay more attention.

> @"Drgnfly.5812" said:

> > @"Taylan.2187" said:

> > Isn't it a bit different with the gods? They look exactly like humans...and perhaps your right. It is possible that the gods of Tyria walked through the Mists and elevated an already existing species thereby creating humanity. Perhaps the gods crafted humanity from clay and bone as speculated by the asura Xakk. I would love to create some solid answers to these and many questions concerning the lore of Tyria. Though I suspect the developers at ArenaNet prefer the nebulous nature of this lore for more pragmatic reasons.

>

I tend to agree with you. I believe humanity was cultivated from another, source race. The GWP Manuscripts reveal a relationship between the Forgotten and the Gods, so it's possible that the Gods grafted humanity from them. Thruuln the Lost also talks about a relationship between the Gods and the jotun, and I guess that is another source race from which humanity might've been seeded.

If the jotun turn out to be the vine through which humanity emerged, I think that the norn might be prototype humans who were largely, but not completely, cleansed of torment.

How was this achieved? Probably by sacrificing jotun atop the bloodstone and using a resurrection ceremony similar to that employed by the White Mantle to restore Lazarus the Dire's form. The difference would be that the physical form of the jotun candidate was changed between each round of sacrifice until the norn emerged. The grafting of norn from jotun might be what Thruuln refers to when he says that the jotun were "gaining" on the gods.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > > > A lot of it is basically 'we don't know', although in my mind, references to humans coming from somewhere else along with the gods are common enough to be persuasive.

> > > >

> > > > It's certainly a common opinion in this forum. Do you have any references to help us ascertain whether humans are natives or immigrants?

> > > >

> > >

> > > The strongest ingame off the top of my head is the [Orrian History Scrolls](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls). I think it's been said more blatently in some out-of-game sources, but they're often hard (and in some cases impossible) to track down these days.

> >

> > Yeah, that seems to be the go-to source. It's at odds with the Guild Wars Prophecies Manuscripts, though.

> >

> > I don't know what to make of the whole "Humans are aliens on Tyria" thing these days. I held that belief largely because others here do, long before I formed my own opinion.

> >

> > I have nothing against the idea, but the in-game sources aren't clear about the origins of humanity and the OHS is open to interpretation.

>

> A go-to source should rather be [Cathedral of Silence story](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cathedral_of_Silence_%28story%29), specifically:

>

> > The Seventh Reaper: So shall it be. You seek the heart of Orr? Then you must go to the very beginning. The rock where the gods first set foot upon this world.

> > The Seventh Reaper: There is an artesian well hidden in the mountains behind the temple of Melandru. There, you will find the place where Orr began.

> and

> > Trahearne: The place where the Six Gods first walked upon Tyria. I never dreamed I'd see it, yet now we know it is the end of our great journey.

> > Pact Commander: Where the gods first walked? What does that mean?

> > Trahearne: Human myth says that when the Six Gods came to Tyria, they built the city of Arah. The "source" must be the place where they first set foot on Tyria.

>

> The Orrian History Scrolls goes into a bit more detail, but it's not a reliable source.

>

> As to the Prophecies manual - a lot was retconned, even in Prophecies itself, let alone Nightfall. It should be noted that A History of Tyria was intentionally written from an in-universe, and tthus unreliable narrator, viewpoint; same with The Movement of the World. This was done so that ANet could freely retcon it as they needed.

>

> There are other in-game references, but imo, from the word of an avatar of a god and an expert on Orrian history is among the best sources we could get in-game.

>

> As to the rest of the thread, too tired to read through the wall of text. Pardons.

The trouble with the dialogue that you've offered is that none of the NPCs you've quoted state that humanity arrived with the gods, merely that the gods arrived. I'm sure you can appreciate why I disagree with your point. The _only_ source that I know of, thus far, suggesting that humanity migrated to Tyria, rather than evolving from other races already dwelling on it, is The Six.

In another discussion you brought up guidelines you felt helped us to interpret evidence presented to us. What would your guidelines suggest? If I interpreted your remarks in that discussion correctly, you adeptly pointed-out that in-game opinions and statements carry some of the strongest arguments for or against a position. Well, we have the Orrian History Scrolls, _seemingly_ stating that humans migrated to Tyria from the Mists; then you have the Guild Wars Prophecies Manuscripts, _seemingly_ stating the exact opposite. Both sources, being written documents, are subject to interpretation. Hence, dismissing one or even both as the product of unreliable narration doesn't advance an answer to the question of mankind's origins. We need to find common ground so that both can be interpreted without conflict. Call that common ground what you will - retcon, unreliable narration, glaring error. It doesn't matter to me, as long as the explanation is _reasonable_.

I just don't find the current explanations, defending the "traditional" interpretative position of the Orrian History Scrolls, particularly convincing.

Your thoughts?

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > A lot of it is basically 'we don't know', although in my mind, references to humans coming from somewhere else along with the gods are common enough to be persuasive.

> >

> > It's certainly a common opinion in this forum. Do you have any references to help us ascertain whether humans are natives or immigrants?

> >

>

> The strongest ingame off the top of my head is the [Orrian History Scrolls](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls). I think it's been said more blatently in some out-of-game sources, but they're often hard (and in some cases impossible) to track down these days.

Yeah, that seems to be the go-to source. It's at odds with the Guild Wars Prophecies Manuscripts, though.

I don't know what to make of the whole "Humans are aliens on Tyria" thing these days. I held that belief largely because others here do, long before I formed my own opinion.

I have nothing against the idea, but the in-game sources aren't clear about the origins of humanity and the OHS is open to interpretation.

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> A lot of it is basically 'we don't know', although in my mind, references to humans coming from somewhere else along with the gods are common enough to be persuasive.

It's certainly a common opinion in this forum. Do you have any references to help us ascertain whether humans are natives or immigrants?

Thanks for posting, mate. There are plenty of more knowledgeable people lurking on these forums, but this topic always piques my curiousity.

> @"Ninutra.7926" said:

> There have been some questions streaming through my mind when it comes to gods, or divines in the world of Tyria in general. This is for the fun of speculation only!

>

> According to Eternal Alchemy, beings such as the human Gods and Spirits of the Wild are only powerful entities, not creators of the world in any way. In that case, they are inhabitants of this world like anyone, albeit ones with much higher degree of power. If so, then:

>

> - Are gods a separate race? One that comes with naturally high magic concentration/powers? Were some of them divine from birth, or existed since forever, while the likes of Kormir and Grenth are ascended humans or... half-breeds, in Grenth's case? Are gods simply powerful humans that can just spawn out of thin air? Or did they all ascend at some point in time, but maybe so long ago that nobody could possibly remember? I personally lean towards the latter.

It's possible that the gods are a separate race. We tend to think of those that have ascended to become gods, such as Grenth and Kormir, as they _were:_ human. But their incarnate form, once they ascend, may simply be a way for them to maintain a positive, personal relationship with whatever host race they inhabit or feed on.

>

> - If it is possible to ascend, how does one acquire such power? Aside from sucking up another dying god, that is. Could one perhaps take in a large power pool from any source and just become a god? If so, then how many "gods" could there be in the Mists, if not all human(oids) came to Tyria? And potentially, how many can be created in Tyria itself? Can one take up magic over the course of a long life, instead of all at once? Could a long-lived race perhaps develop into something with similar power level to the Six? (let's just entertain the thought that Dragon's won't eat you, nor your magic)

Would I be correct in thinking that you fall into the "Humans came to Tyria from another world" category? I think they _are_ native to Tyria. But let's put our tinfoil hats on, shall we? I believe that the race we refer to as "gods" use worlds within the Mists to reproduce. They have incredible influence over these worlds and can affect the evolutionary path of creatures living upon them. The "gods" walk the evolutionary path with lesser creatures until such time as said creatures have developed sufficiently advanced biology that members from among them can be _harvested_ to form vessels for the "gods". In theory, this evolutionary development would mean that, yes, any suitable race could achieve godhood if they lived long enough. In fact, long-life may be one of several criteria through which we can identify races _chosen_ by the gods.

>

> - Are humans specifically sensitive to magic and taking it up, because of their direct connection with their gods and the possibility to ascend? (also looking at the fact that they hail from the Mists) Could a charr or a norn, for example, strive to achieve such power? (and I am talking a situation more akin to what made Kormir a goddess, not the kind of "ascension" going on in Elon Riverlands, just to clarify)

Please see my former answer. I'm not sure why you're downplaying the process of Ascension in Elona. The failure to ascend, in my opinion, is at the core of a deeper mystery within the Guild Wars franchise.

As to whether humans are more sensitive to magic? In my opinion, yes, they are. Think of humanity as the gods' ideal host race. A charr or norn is unlikely to ascend into godhood _as a charr or a norn_. In other words, the process of ascension for any member of these races would, by necessity, require them to become human, or at least as close to human as realistically possible. I believe that the process of evolution, culminating in expressions of sentient life like humanity, is the means by which the gods foster a candidate race into godhood.

>

> - Iirc, Balthazar did not use a lot of his powers between coming back to Tyria and eating the Bloodstone; all the visual tricks have been done by Lyssa's Mirror. He relied on diplomacy, rather than strength. He was a shell of his former self, and yet, he sponged in the power of the Stone easily, while everyone else either died or went crazy. Was his body somehow different from your regular human? Easier to house magic in, resilient to side effects? Again, back to the first point, is it a predisposition one is born with, or is it developed? (now that I think of Balthazar's body, which disappeared during his death, was itself only/mostly magic? If so, is it held in this state of matter by the strength of will, since it has a tendency to spread out? Do powerful beings possess some sort of gravitational-magical pull that keeps it together?)

We don't really know how Balthazar fared prior to his return to Tyria. To compare his last outing in Path of Fire, with his previous exploits, seems like a stretch too far. There is no way of knowing if he was more diplomatic or more aggressive when he first took humanoid form on Tyria.

Your suggestion that the gods may be a separate race helps us to understand why everyone else went crazy when the Bloodstone exploded. Balthazar, as a member of the gods' race, is capable of metabolizing magic in a way that lesser beings, even magically-adept humans, cannot.

When you say that Balthazar's body is easier to house magic in, think about what your idea means: humans have been _chosen_ by the gods to be their current _host race_. It stands to reason that the gods would ensure that humans evolve to become the most magically-adept race. In other words, Balthazar's humanity synergized well with his divinity.

>

> - If it is... developable, I am tempted to say there should be "deity academies" which teach people how to harness enough power to become gods, but that would probably be considered sacrilege.

>

> It's a bit clunky post, correct me if I've forgotten something (it's late over here when I was writing this). Otherwise, what do you guys think? Would gladly read any theories that you may have.

It's not a clunky post. Plenty of other players have asked questions akin to these. I encourage you to keep exploring this topic and to form opinions of your own. Diversity of opinion is good for this forum :)

I don't want to derail this post and I don't care to start a new one for a topic that clearly has Aurene front-and-center. So I'll pop these thoughts in here.

First, kudos to Anet for bringing Aurene this far. As you all know from my posts and the posts of others in this discussion, I'm not a fan of everything they've done with her, but one thing I really like is how she _looks_. The sensations I get when beholding her include serenity and harmony, themes I'm sure Aurene's designers intended to convey.

But then there's the rest of it. To Development it may not be a mess, but to my mind it most certainly is. Here's what I _think_ I know about the nature of magic and torment thus far and why I find it so hard to understand why Kralkatorrik would willingly grant his power to Aurene or why he would say that she is the _first_ of her kind.

So we've been told, in various ways, that magic is like light. [Taimi says as much](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Taimi%27s_Game) and the color wheels presented to us in-game support this. These color wheels present us with the following colors:

1. From the color wheel at Divinity's Reach: Blue, red, green; purple, yellow, and black.

2. From the color wheel at the Crucible of Eternity: Blue, red, green; violet (purple), black, and white.

3. From the color wheel in our vision of The All: Blue, red, green (or green-yellow, depending on your interpretation); purple, green-black (or green, depending on your interpretation), and white. The orb in the center of this vision may be another color, gold, or even another version of white. It's hard to say.

4. From Taimi's research in Season 3: Blues, Greens, Yellows (and possibly orange) and white.

So we have a few sources of information about the range of magical colors that make-up the spectrum. One thing that we can derive from contemplating these wheels is that not every color is presented to us. If magic is like _white light_, it stands to reason that said light is comprised of the following "lesser" colors:

Red, green, blue (three primary colors)

Purple, cyan, yellow (three secondary colors)

In addition to what I will call the "master colors": white and black.

Thus, there are _eight_ colors of magic. Of the secondary colors, we've seen creatures embodying yellow and purple respectively. Yellow seems to be mainly human, a detail supported by the character creation racial selection choice. (Humans are color-coded yellow.) Other races, such as the hylek, may embody this color too. But the color is nonetheless rare.

The most obvious example of purple creatures are Kralkatorrik's minions. However, all of the playable races seem to embody this color, especially the asura.

The one color we haven't seen much of is _cyan_. My instincts tell me that the [Nightmare Incarnate](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Nightmare_Incarnate) is the embodiment of this color. Hence, when the Nightmare Incarnate screams, _"No! I cannot be the last of my kind"_, it may be alluding to this. This creature isn't quite blue and it isn't quite green. It's something else.

As you all know, the color black is well represented within populations dwelling on Tyria. Humans come to mind (through Grenth), as does any race that can practice necromancy. Curiously, white isn't well represented. Players tend to think that Dwayna is aligned to white. But we are yet to have solid confirmation of this and those humans who have expressed their faith through color identify her with blue. Yes, Dwayna's mural at Divinity's Reach has flecks of white in it, at it's top. No, that doesn't conclusively demonstrate that Dwayna's color is _white_.

So we have eight magical colors. Where does Aurene fit into this?

Well, my theory is that whenever a race casts a spell aligned to any of the colors of magic that we have identified, they generate **torment** within said color. In the past, when mankind's gods were aligned harmoniously (i.e. there was no conflict between them), humans generated significant amounts of torment in most of the colors that we have identified. But the gods _redirected_ their torment to Abaddon's sphere, blue, through the Bloodstone.

This bit about the Bloodstone is very important to my theory. Essentially, the Elder Dragons did a deal with the Elder Races in the last cycle; they allowed the races to live _if, and only if_ they agreed to manage the problem of torment. (Think of this in the same way as you think of a criminal taking responsibility for his or her actions.) The Elder Dragons revealed to the Elder Races that the latter's indiscriminate spell-casting and use of other magics' to solve their own magics' problems (i.e. mixing magics to shift torment, rather than resolve it) was the reason the dragons had arrived on Tyria and were tearing it apart. If the Elder Races could learn to take responsibility for their actions, Tyria could live on. The Elder Dragons remained present on Tyria, sleeping, to supervise this. [Hence, we learn that Tyria has always felt the presence of the dragons.](https://photics.com/guild-wars-2-trailer-transcript/) Before they went to sleep, they commissioned Glint to help the Elder Races forge the Bloodstone, an artifact created from the blood of _five_ of the six Elder Dragons.

Although the blood of the sixth Elder Dragon, "Bubbles", wasn't present in the Bloodstone, it contributed to the artifact's creation in it's own way, forming the _Crystal Sea_. Granted, the sea might've been the Deep Sea Dragon's blood. Even so, it's blood wasn't forged into the stone directly, because, as we know, the _magics presented as colors don't play nice together_. We learn that mixing the Six Magical Elements causes explosions. When Elder Dragons handle the Six Magical Elements, it's no problem; they know what they're doing. But mortals? No, mortals clearly _don't know what they're doing_. [Thaumanova](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reactor_Meltdown) teaches us that, for all their intellectual bravado, the asura have no idea how to mix the magical elements. [The Six](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls), the [Tragedy of Malchor](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls), and the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven (that led to the formation of the [Mouth of Torment](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Mouth_of_Torment)) teach us that mankind also has no idea. Every mortal race floats in the same boat here.

The long and short of it is this: Whenever mortals try to practice magic, they generate torment. It's what we do.

So Elder Dragons supervise the resolution of torment within the various colors of magic. Which brings us to Aurene. You see, it's the colors _we don't see that cause the biggest problems_. We haven't seen much of cyan, nearly not as much of yellow either. Does Aurene represent either of these colors? Not as far as I'm aware. From what I can tell, she represents _white light_, the combination of every primary magical color. We already have an Elder Dragon for that: it's called Jormag. To truly contribute something meaningful to the cycle, Aurene needs to assume Kralkatorrik's mantle and continue to discharge torment generated within magic color-coded purple. It's hard to understand why she isn't doing this? Perhaps she fears losing _love_?

Why did Kralkatorrik hand over his power? I'm frustrated beyond all sensibility by this question. Answers just don't make any sense. Why did Kralkatorrik think that Aurene was unique? Was it because Aurene was hatched from an egg? Is Glint's ability to reproduce something that emerged from the ritual to cleanse her of Kralkatorrik's corruption? Is Elder Dragon reproduction a new way to manage torment? A little clarity on these details would help.

> @"ErikTheTyrant.4527" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312"

> > Lol. A for effort. F for everything else.

> >

> > Why do you think this could be possible?

>

> Why> @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > @"ErikTheTyrant.4527" said:

> > > What if Jormag is the DSD, and the reason nothing is known about the dsd is because it is Jormag.

> >

> > Lol. A for effort. F for everything else.

> >

> > Why do you think this could be possible?

>

> Why would it not be possible? Water is just frozen ice, we no nothing about the dsd, we don't even know its name. Jormag has an echoey voice implying that there could be more to it than meets the eye.

>

> Also it was a fun suggestion, not to be taken literally.

Fair enough mate. It would be an interesting twist. It's just that there are multiple sources that suggest otherwise. I guess that we'd need to explain that before we venture into the Jormag = DSD territory.

How would you explain it?

> @"ErikTheTyrant.4527" said:

> What if Jormag is the DSD, and the reason nothing is known about the dsd is because it is Jormag.

Lol. A for effort. F for everything else.

Why do you think this could be possible?

> @"dikkejonko.5803" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > > @"dikkejonko.5803" said:

> > > > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > > > Sue how?

> > > > Dragons, or at least Elder Dragons, are considered to be legendary beings, and Aurene is just growing up to fill her role in life.

> > > >

> > > > And besides, the only "sue" moment is her conviniently eating Joko for his revival magic, but that can be forgiven since she has saw her death coming and had to take precautions and follow through with eating Joko.

> > > >

> > > > My only gripe is that she grew too fast during Season 4 but I guess that can't be helped since the Devs already built Kralk up to be such a huge threat, but even so she didn't "1v1 Kralk", she had the entire Pact hammering Kralk from the outside while she, the Commander and Co. went for the heart.

> > >

> > > I just want to say Kralkatorrik, elder dragon of power had 'too much' power ... but then he says aurine can handle it NP cause she's in perfect balance and all that kitten. Why? cause aurine, that's mary sue. Not to mention any male dragon no matter the size talks like a demon, but aurine talks like a regular human just like glint just sounds like grandma xd

> >

> > I agree: Aurene is a Mary Sue. She's much better at it than Scarlet, too.

> >

> > The thing I can't wrap my head around is how Aurene is the "first of her kind". What exactly did Kralk mean by that? Now I have some ideas. Here we go:

> >

> > 1) Aurene is the first Elder Dragon. _No_.

> > 2) Aurene is the first _female_ Elder Dragon. That doesn't seem necessary. Jormag is non-binary, according to most, so I can't see that being correct either.

> > 3) Aurene is the first _prismatic_ Elder Dragon. Well, no. Kralk is Aurene's grand-daddy. It shouldn't make me feel stupid to think that mixing magics runs in the family. Kralk was purple, after all, a mix of blue and red, two of the big primaries. So maybe she just needs green? Ah, she absorbed Mordy's magic as an egg. Mordy tried to get her egg anyway. Maybe Mordy's contribution is the key? Perhaps, because of him, Aurene can mix all three Primary Magical Colours?

> >

> > NO! That doesn't work either, because we have _Jormag_, the Elder Dragon associated with Zone White. Moreover, Kralk has a mother. I think it might _be_ Jormag. In other words, Aurene is what she is as much because of Kralk's and Mordy's input as Jormag's.

> >

> > In short, _I cannot fathom what makes Aurene unique and I have no idea why Kralk said what he said_.

> >

> > Maybe someone else has got insights into this? Your input is welcome.

> >

>

> In my eyes, the fact that they gave no explanation to it, NONE besides kralk lampshading that she is unique, even when the story was finished, shows the writers simply don't think that far. They wrote a pretty ending to disney fairy tale where everything came together not because we worked towards it but because it just did.

>

> If I were to think that they had an exxplenation behind kralk's statement (which I don't) I might argue that she is the first elder dragon offspring with a champion as connection to the mortals, which still doesn't give her anything special beyond she's a good gal.

Yeah, I don't like this at all. And it shouldn't be so hard to understand. Everything leading up to her "Ascension" should make Aurene's peculiarity an intuitive conclusion.

What a let-down.

> @"dikkejonko.5803" said:

> > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > Sue how?

> > Dragons, or at least Elder Dragons, are considered to be legendary beings, and Aurene is just growing up to fill her role in life.

> >

> > And besides, the only "sue" moment is her conviniently eating Joko for his revival magic, but that can be forgiven since she has saw her death coming and had to take precautions and follow through with eating Joko.

> >

> > My only gripe is that she grew too fast during Season 4 but I guess that can't be helped since the Devs already built Kralk up to be such a huge threat, but even so she didn't "1v1 Kralk", she had the entire Pact hammering Kralk from the outside while she, the Commander and Co. went for the heart.

>

> I just want to say Kralkatorrik, elder dragon of power had 'too much' power ... but then he says aurine can handle it NP cause she's in perfect balance and all that kitten. Why? cause aurine, that's mary sue. Not to mention any male dragon no matter the size talks like a demon, but aurine talks like a regular human just like glint just sounds like grandma xd

I agree: Aurene is a Mary Sue. She's much better at it than Scarlet, too.

The thing I can't wrap my head around is how Aurene is the "first of her kind". What exactly did Kralk mean by that? Now I have some ideas. Here we go:

1) Aurene is the first Elder Dragon. _No_.

2) Aurene is the first _female_ Elder Dragon. That doesn't seem necessary. Jormag is non-binary, according to most, so I can't see that being correct either.

3) Aurene is the first _prismatic_ Elder Dragon. Well, no. Kralk is Aurene's grand-daddy. It shouldn't make me feel stupid to think that mixing magics runs in the family. Kralk was purple, after all, a mix of blue and red, two of the big primaries. So maybe she just needs green? Ah, she absorbed Mordy's magic as an egg. Mordy tried to get her egg anyway. Maybe Mordy's contribution is the key? Perhaps, because of him, Aurene can mix all three Primary Magical Colours?

NO! That doesn't work either, because we have _Jormag_, the Elder Dragon associated with Zone White. Moreover, Kralk has a mother. I think it might _be_ Jormag. In other words, Aurene is what she is as much because of Kralk's and Mordy's input as Jormag's.

In short, _I cannot fathom what makes Aurene unique and I have no idea why Kralk said what he said_.

Maybe someone else has got insights into this? Your input is welcome.