serialkicker.5274

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Ah, that's just sour grapes. It was all worth it; the people present their cases with good feedback were heard and Anet has made changes inline with the direction they want the class to go. No one could hardly ask for a better solution than this.

>

> Tell you what though ... anytime we need changes again, come on by. I honestly believe you helped us out.

The class plays exactly the same as did before patch. Idk what you are talking about. Extra second for two rage skills? Wow, what a changer! It enforces you even more to use those utilities that you don't want and wouldn't take otherwise. If duration would extend when you fill up adrenaline bar for example, would be a lot better, since you can do that in plenty ways and doesn't force you into certain skills.

Tremor on mace is such an unreliable skill. It fails so often, it's insane. If you don't have mob exactly in front of you, there is a good chance it will fail and proceed to go on CD. Ridiculous. You can't kite mobs and use this skill. Yesterday I was fighting a champ and I literally stopped pressing all buttons for a second and then pressed only #5 while not directly facing champ. I expect my char to turn and hit him, but instead, skill failed, no effect, but went on CD.

Another issue I have is with vengeful return trait. It fails often as well. Killed bunch of veteran mobs on many occasions and didn't work at all. Not even sure why this thing requires a trait. It should be baseline. What's the point of skill if it's not 100% chance to revive? Should go baseline and balance it appropriately if you feel it would be too powerful. But it shouldn't be too powerful, at least not in PvE.

Of course, priority seems to be to mess up with skills that don't need messing with like this last patch, while every class has bunch of skills that are buggy or underperforming for YEARS and no one cares to look at those.

Anet's motto must be "If it works, it's already OP".

I though we might be slowly getting into separation of PvE and PvP skills, but I see not. Many of these completely nonsensical changes are obviously because of PvP. But who cares about fun, as long as it works and everything works in PvE, right?

25 stacks of bump!

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> I dont quite see the positives of a gun as its largely designed to hurt. I would instead compaire dps meters with something that has a practical use and its actually very helpful but in the hands of certain ppl can be used to hurt others. That doesnt make meters tho designed to hurt others.

Then take religion for example. It was made for good purposes and it was misused on many many occasions for terrible reasons.

> I say i understand it about taco because taco shows u what to do to beat the content, but how does a dps meter show me how to beat 99cm and 100cm?

It doesn't, therefore it serves little purpose and can do more harm than good.

> Last time i checked i myself was learning the boss' mechanics in order o survive while trying to keep an eye on my dps so the boss whould die faster (because the faster things die the less chances the group has of wiping).

Or in some cases people who don't know mechanics, because they didn't learn properly and rely on guides and meta builds, die often and therefore do no dps.

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

...

All I see here is bunch of claims that I'm suppose to believe, because you said so, while I have to provide proof for my own. Somehow you have correct info on what kind of players run dps meter, who are the true meta boys and how often these things occur. Funny you talk about strawman, then you proceed to claim those are not true meta players. LOL. What makes a true meta player? They are using meta gear, meta build and are using meta strategies in encounters. Their experience doesn't matter. You are trying to save your arguments by separating bad players from good, because you don't want to admit a lot of meta players are also bad players.

No, skipping wasn't about how fast you can make it. These are standard runs for a long, long time. It's simply because people think killing those mobs is waste of time and not profitable at all. You are saying killing same mobs for 1000th time is boring. Well, buddy, you are playing the wrong game. You'll be killing exactly same mobs in open world all the time. If you are even decently active you will be doing content you already did plenty of time again. Even if we killed those mobs so many times, does running past them makes for more fun? Seems hell of a boring thing to me and I have to scratch my had and think why are you even there in the first place if you want to skip everything?

I have also ran dungeons for a long time and I have done speedruns for a long time, so don't think you know something I don't. Same party composition, same tactics, everyone knows their exact rotation and what to do in each encounter. Now, that is boring. Every single run is exactly the same, because it's run the same way. And I took dungeons and fractals for example because most people run those.

The fact that you need a third party tool to tell you how to improve yourself and monitor others says enough. There shouldn't even be a discussion about this in the first place and allowing such thing is even worse. Most of people rely on google to tell them how to gear, how to build, which buttons to press and in what order for each boss and then you are going to talk about challenge? :D It really is cute how people who raid think they are some kind of elite players in this game.

Dungeons can be solo'ed. Fractals can be solo'ed. Raids were finished by 5 people in exotic gear. Do you still think you learn the game by looking at meta sites or by playing it? So what is then the point of dps meter? If you are into static reliable clears, you can make friends and guild for that. For anything else, there is no need to monitor people in a freaking game. When you get to that level, you should reconsider what gaming means to you.

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> No, they don't. If we didn't have meta builds and dps meters in the game toxic people would still be toxic no matter what. On content that could be overcome with different strategies players with different opinions would come together and it would lead to conflicts. Either we get Hello Kitty Online in GW2 or they just make a single player game out of it (not to mention that outside of some stuff this game is pretty much single player friendly.

If we didn't have guns, people who want to murder, would do so without a gun, so giving everyone a gun shouldn't be a problem, right?

> Well, how long would you give players time to finally learn to play the game? GW2 is almost 7 years old now and still there are people with 20k+ AP - meaning they have at least played this game - that don't know anything about using their class properly or that it would help them **and** their group. I mean, you talk about dungeons.

And I had plenty of meta boys coming into my group and not knowing certain mobs even exist. Every time we have been to champ harpy in SE, at least one says "lol, didn't even know this exists". I also noticed a lot of people don't even know some mechanics of bosses. Why? It's clear they were thaught how to speedrun through dungeon on their first run. Putting feedback on non reflectable boss, putting aegis and trying to block Champ Icebrood troll etc.

Oh, so much challenge, yeah. Let's put stealth and swiftness and run to the end. Ohhh, that challenge! Those who intend to learn, can do so on their own, just as much as they could by reading a guide. How did I learn this when it was my first mmorpg and still the only one I play? How do people learn other games that don't hold their hands? Because they have no choice. This game is already super casual and rather easy, now you even want to give them cheats like taco, because god forbid it might take anything more than one button while scratching their ass to complete the content.

> > There are just things that shouldn't belong in games, simple as that. Same as Taco for example. Already gave an example of that in that topic related to it. Quite a few people join guild missions with taco on, make it in first shot because they are basically cheating and then boast about it. Or even if they don't boast and want to help, they are like "dude, just get taco, it's ez". Puts pressure on those who don't want to cheat through it, but all these people made it in first try and they are now waiting for those 2 or three to complete it normally. And that is another tool that was supposed to be helpful, but it's not simple as that.

> Those ego dudes would still boast even if Taco wouldn't be there, just saying.

> I'm using Taco myself due to several reasons for example guild missions that are very very old content and haven't gotten an update since. These are things you want to get done. The faster the better.

And that's the problem. If you don't enjoy it, don't play it. "Nah, let's force ourselves through content I don't like with cheats!" What a logic! If it's so old then you should know it without cheating. But maybe you never learned it in the first place?

> At last, think about it. All the situations you mentioned are not the rule or standard. They are exceptions. If you have people in the guild behaving like this it's a problem of the guild or yours that you haven't already left that community or kicked them out for their skritty behavior. The same applies for dungeon runs. I still do them and it's not the majority that joins chilled runs and then rushes them or being toxic. What happens the most and with an overwhelming majority is that newer players below level 80 join "level 80 only" groups and then "may" have a problem. I say "may" because in lots of runs the experienced people don't say anything and help (a.k.a. carry) them through without being rude or complaining at all.

Cool, you shared you experience and I shared mine. Now where is the limit when this becomes a problem. Does every group in existence has to be toxic in order for this stuff to be considered bad? Cheating is bad, but not everyone does it, so it's ok, by your logic.

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > Oh, so I'm lying and need to provide proof, but what you are saying is automatically correct and true?

>

> Not at all. Is it so wrong to ask someone to backup what they claim? After all you can post anything you want on a game forum (or any forum) so providing some substance would be helpful.

If you are asking if I keep screenshots of cancerous behavior on my computer, then sorry, nope. =) My usual procedure is block and leave the group and report If I think it's worth it.

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > Don't come there and teach people how to speedrun in their first ever dungeon.

>

> It's the opposite that happens all the time, people that join "speedruns" when it is their first ever dungeon. All the other side effects, including kicking, is because those players join groups they don't belong to. As for players joining training runs or casual groups then kicking people out, pictures for proof please.

Oh, so I'm lying and need to provide proof, but what you are saying is automatically correct and true? > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> and I'm quite sure on multiple of those runs people were running dps meters and did not say a thing. Also dungeons are hardly content I would currently count as a problem zone for dps requirements given how the past 2 expansions pushed damage by nearly 300%.. Again, performance and output become issues once success is imparied. The random troll who likes to flex is will do so with or without dps meter.

So your argument is, there are people who use dps meter and aren't toxic, so there is no problem. We can sort out every problem in existence with that logic :)

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

Ok, I'll try not to get into these long walls of texts again, so not gonna quote and reply to everything. We all know those can go on. Perhaps I got carried a bit away and not just address dps meter, but that's because I wanted to give examples of toxic behaviour. And dps meter is not the only source of toxic behaviour. But it's one contributing to it. Same as meta build, even though, both, meta builds and dps meter have some positive aspects to it.

What I'm saying is, I don't believe we need this kind of things in our games. I would like to see people improve and learn by playing the game, learning from their own mistakes and making their own characters, not rely on other telling them how to play. If there is a group you don't wish to play with, because they are underperforming, simply make your own group and deal with people joining while not meeting requirements, just like the other side is making groups for casual runs and running into same problems.

There are just things that shouldn't belong in games, simple as that. Same as Taco for example. Already gave an example of that in that topic related to it. Quite a few people join guild missions with taco on, make it in first shot because they are basically cheating and then boast about it. Or even if they don't boast and want to help, they are like "dude, just get taco, it's ez". Puts pressure on those who don't want to cheat through it, but all these people made it in first try and they are now waiting for those 2 or three to complete it normally. And that is another tool that was supposed to be helpful, but it's not simple as that.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> As was pointed out multiple times, the difference between a poor performance and a good performance is more than a couple of seconds. Most often toxicity results in failure of completing a task or engagement, not in a slower success. As such your example would have to be amended to: if you want to complete the dungeon or not complete the dungeon, then you are playing the wrong game.

Of course difference between good performance and and bad performance is big. What I'm talking about is the fact that you don't need meta build or dps meter to reach good performance. I have done countless of dungeons (full clears) with average groups with their own builds and it took about 2-3 minutes more than average speedrun. Of course, it depends on the path. You also get a lot more loot.

> That does not give people a right to be toxic, but it is unrelated to damage meters. People in general use the information provided by damage meters AFTER something went wrong and even then, it's preferable to the alternative of guessing which element of the party is at fault.

I'm sorry, but I don't know where you found these people. In my experience and experience of people I talked to, there are many cases, where dps meter is looked at all the time, not just after the failure. Maybe you are only counting extreme cases where people get kicked for underperforming? I am counting people who are boasting, keep talking about their dps, humiliating others for their dps, talking trash about certain classes and much more. Because that contributes to bad experience and dps meter contributes to that problem. I've been in many, many guilds over the years. Even among guildies, where people usually keep their toxic behaviour to a lower level, because it's a guild run, it is still present. They don't straight up tell others they suck and should uninstall, but they can't keep themselves from making stupid and unecessary jokes and rude comments that sooner than later leave bad impression for new comers and then are afraid to join that content again or lose interest. I even get a lot of such people coming to my guild with 10+ ap and share such experiences with me and tell me they avoided this content for that reason.

> If you haven't seen this behavior in any other game, you have never done challenging content in other games or are ignoring gouping mechanisms or gearing possibilities in those other games (to essentially bypass or circumvent the challenge). Efficiency and desire to compelte content is present in literally every MMO on every level.

I should mention in first post that I'm not strictly talking about mmos only, apologies. I am aware this is the issue in other mmos as well, even thought I haven't played them.

But I'm talking about other games. And I'm pretty sure I have played way more challenging and competitive games than guild wars 2. Sure, you would perhaps say it's not a fair comparison, because they are different genres, but I don't see why not. In other genres, we are fine by just relying on our build to contribute to the team and no one asks for your stats or build in such way. If you contribute in any way, then there is no problem.

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > What happened to just roll with it and go from that? If you enjoy the group and you work well together, then what else matters?

>

> Tell me how this works out for you for raids and challenge mode fractals after 1 day... 1 week... 1 month... 1 year... etc.

Works very well, for 6+ years now for the content I do. How do games with challenging group content without dps meters work then? They make it work, like it was meant it. Practice and finding like minded people that are willing to play at that level. Not come into random pug group and expect everyone to have exact the build, gear and experience that you think they should have.

> You are making an assumption which is simply often not present when things turn toxic: things working well together. If things were working well, there would be no toxicity (unless the person is a jerk, in which case he'd be a jerk either way and it's unrelated to him using a damage meter).

There is only assumptions on your part. I know what I have seen and experienced in 6+ years. Define "things working well". Because it seems that if you don't skip 80% of the instance to rush to final chest, things are not going well according to many. Even if you clear mobs with ease. Common sense now indicates that this part is to be skipped and that's what people are doing. If you don't play along, you will get flak for it.

I am pretty sure you have quite many hours in game from what I remember from some other post I've seen from you. I have a hard time imagining you are being honest with me here. I am sorry to say. But I really don't believe you are true when you are implying that toxicity comes from things not going well. I think everyone knows very well poeple are toxic for many, many reasons and a lot of those reasons are not reasonable at all.

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > Is there not a single positive thing about dps meters? Of course there is something positive. But we can find positive in almost everything, if we look into it enough.

> > I believe there is absolutely no need for dps meters and I'm saddened it came so far that people feel the need to monitor their gameplay. I am all for pushing yourself to improve your performance, but this is not the way. Relying on third party software to monitor every point of your damage you do is really quite sad.

> I would be more than willing to have a game implemented damage meter or way of monitoring performance. As for your believe, once again, we had the time of uninformed groups and it was in no way better than now (for the bazillionth time, it was even worse). So no, I disagree that no damage meter would in any way make the core issue better. The core issue being: the performance disparity between people who have spent time honing and understanding their class, abilities, traits and rotations and those who haven't is on a scale of 10-15 times meaning 1 player performing close to maximum efficiency can easily replace up to or more than 10 players who run run-of-the-mill selfmade inefficient builds.

Just because you think it wasn't any better, doesn't mean having dps meters is a good decision. This is like saying "Eh, people will always be rude, one more tool for them to justify their behaviour isn't gonna make it any worse, so doesn't matter. There are a lot of better, genuinely decent solutions or improvements that were suggested over the years on forums, to make things better. Just to name a few: Better tutorials, better LFG tool with more funcionality, rewards scaling according to how well you cleared the instance and if you completed or skipped events and much more.

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > Before people come with their highly predictable argument like "Just make your own group, dude), please consider and take your own advice. You make your own group or guild for that purpose as well. Don't join regular lfgs with no requirements (or in a lot of cases in my experience, even into groups with first timers) and then expect people to have exactly the gear, experience and knowledge you want them to have. Make your own group and keep that attitude there. Don't come there and teach people how to speedrun in their first ever dungeon.

> I'd wager though that the main problems arise from people joining into groups and not performing the role which was searched for:

> - no proper boon uptime as a bon support

> - bad healing as a healer support

> - bad damage as a damage dealer

I'm using same argument as above. Things are going well, yet some wannabe pro decides to rush forward despite lfg being no rush or no skipping. He rushes to boss and waits there for entire party to clear all mobs and catches up on him, because he can't be bothered and that's below him to even consider clearing trash. (Got many, many of those). Or 25k ap dude joins "first timers here, we need help", start rushing ahead immediately, leaving those noobies to die repeatedly until they can manage to reahc almighty dude that will carry them, please bow and cherish him! Or something that happened to me personally (that is obviously just one example of many), was doing HoTW with engineer. All three paths going well and smooth and then only third path in underwater part did some dude notice me using grenades. I was switching between harpoon and nades. He went completely mad and started insulting me, wtf am I doing with nades? I asked what's the problem and what should I be using in his opinion. He didn't manage to answer in his raging and kept trashing me.

> I'd be more than happy if even half of the players in this game actually googled anything or even spent 10 minutes on understanding their class. Then maybe we could actually start considering not needing damage meters.

This is where we simply have to disagree, because we share different idea of how games should be played. Googling for a recipe or how to acquire certain gear and such is obviously no problem, but googling your entire build and rotation instead of taking few minutes to read through your skills and traits to see what a class can do and then practice and get your own experience and play with weapons and playstyle you enjoy, is complete nonsense.

Many people believe just simply by not having a meta build, you are already wasting their time. Idk how these people can enjoy games to be honest.

Gaming communities is general were formed into new kind of toxic environment. We were suppose to be a fun community helping each other and enjoy escaping real world problems in this fantasy world. Instead, you are met with same greediness, power lusting, competition, even bullying than you can find in real life. They bring all the bad traits along with them to a game, where they are suppose to have fun.

People are concerned about numbers and that one build that is only thing that matters at the moment. People are talking about their time being wasted as if this is their job and they are getting payed for every second of it. If you have exactly 6 min for that dungeon path to spend and 6 min and a half would be too much, then you are playing the wrong game.

In no other game I have played, did I hear, "my time is being wasted because matchmaking put me into worse team/ because I got worse team members, because that one team member doesn't have that exact gear and build some pro guild on internet told him to etc... What happened to just roll with it and go from that? If you enjoy the group and you work well together, then what else matters? I can understand the need for speedruns, but things have gotten so far, it's a norm now that everything is speedrun, unless specifically stated otherwise in caps lock (believe me, I made countless of LFGs and the amount of people ignoring description or playing dumb is shocking), it's expected that you have meta build, that you know your rotation, people are monitoring their or of their entire party dps... You are not playing the game for fun, you are not playing the way you would like to play, you play the way numbers tell you and pro guild tells you. If meta currently requests that one weapon you hate, you'll take it and play with it, because that's the most efficient right now. Absolutely ridiculous. But the sad part is these people often carry that attitude and approach and apply it to everyone. If you stop to kill a mob in dungeon that you were not suppose to, many would in shock question your sanity.

Is there not a single positive thing about dps meters? Of course there is something positive. But we can find positive in almost everything, if we look into it enough.

I believe there is absolutely no need for dps meters and I'm saddened it came so far that people feel the need to monitor their gameplay. I am all for pushing yourself to improve your performance, but this is not the way. Relying on third party software to monitor every point of your damage you do is really quite sad.

Before people come with their highly predictable argument like "Just make your own group, dude), please consider and take your own advice. You make your own group or guild for that purpose as well. Don't join regular lfgs with no requirements (or in a lot of cases in my experience, even into groups with first timers) and then expect people to have exactly the gear, experience and knowledge you want them to have. Make your own group and keep that attitude there. Don't come there and teach people how to speedrun in their first ever dungeon.

It's no secret that an average gamer today has little patience and competence to play and learn the game as it should be learned and was meant to. At least in the past.

Today it's a norm to just google everything, a lot of people even go look for build before even starting to level their first character. I find that a bit unfortunate, but that's not so much the issue as is when these people grab the meta build from internet and suddenly they are hot shots and in position to tell others how to play the game.

Cleanse the bastard's curse!

> @"mcflurry.8076" said:

> Hi what time are guild activities/ events?

Hey. Most of them are 6-7pm CEST. Or 4-5pm server time.

> @"Cyrus.9641" said:

> You have my soul :) can i have inv pls?

Hello. We recruit on Discord as stated in first post. ;)

For great justice!

It's a bump!

Long may the Sun shine!

Ding ding!

Still looking for more!

Sun is such a wondrous body!

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"serialkicker.5274" said:

> > > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > > > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > > > > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > > > > No because I don't want raid toxicity to go into Fractals and Dungeon.

> > > > >

> > > > > What raid toxicity?

> > > > > Asking for kp already there if you do cms.

> > > > > Asking for specific classes same its already there if you do cms.

> > > > > Can you start your own group with what ever you want sure you can do the same thing in raids too.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for giving examples of raid toxicity in Fractals, I would like ANet not to continue to push that toxicity further.

> > >

> > > No my examples was what people call toxicity and really is not, it was there in dungeons and is present in fractal.

> > >

> > > Make your own teams and do the content dont start complaining that its to hard adapt and overcome the challenge.

> > > Edit

> > > And anet aint pushing anything players find the path of least resistance and want to continue to play that way.

> > > Btw what toxicity are you talking about that are not in dungeons or fractals already?

> > >

> >

> > If only you knew how many people can't read LFGs or choose to absolutely ignore them...

> > People snatch a meta build from a website and think they are suddenly hot shots and know how to play the game.

>

> And thats got what to do with anything?

> They get kicked, then run to the forum calling people toxic.

I'm not defending them, just replying to your "make your own team, no problem" idea. I wish it was that simple, but I often have bad experience. Let me give you an example, what making one's own team means. (I joined many, many first timers to help them or make such groups when I do runs with my friend or guild).

It is pretty good chance, that we would get someone who thinks we are all completely incompetent, since our description is not "p3 FAST". What they do? Well, they immediately start rushing ahead. Then you ask them why join no skip run and proceed to rush ahead? Or why join a group that says they are first timers and need a teacher, yet you proceed to rush ahead, leaving your whole party behind to die repeatedly. And, no, this is not uncommon. I see these people frequently. And if they have friend with them, they might even attempt to kick you.

People think they are superior, just because they play the game the way some pro guild tells them how to. And they act that way in groups. Simply ignoring very clear description of LFG and then are ready to insult or trashtalk those who question them.

So, making your own party is far from guaranteed success at getting the kind of run you wish for, especially since you can't do jack shit about trolls and they can even kick you from your own party.

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > > > No because I don't want raid toxicity to go into Fractals and Dungeon.

> > >

> > > What raid toxicity?

> > > Asking for kp already there if you do cms.

> > > Asking for specific classes same its already there if you do cms.

> > > Can you start your own group with what ever you want sure you can do the same thing in raids too.

> >

> > Thanks for giving examples of raid toxicity in Fractals, I would like ANet not to continue to push that toxicity further.

>

> No my examples was what people call toxicity and really is not, it was there in dungeons and is present in fractal.

>

> Make your own teams and do the content dont start complaining that its to hard adapt and overcome the challenge.

> Edit

> And anet aint pushing anything players find the path of least resistance and want to continue to play that way.

> Btw what toxicity are you talking about that are not in dungeons or fractals already?

>

If only you knew how many people can't read LFGs or choose to absolutely ignore them...

People snatch a meta build from a website and think they are suddenly hot shots and know how to play the game.

Heh, what a weird way to ask for nerfs. "I'm not sure what's wrong but top three classes needs to be nerfed, simply by being in top three." I mean, what happens if these three gets nerfed? You realize there will always be top three, right? It's never ending cycle. But I guess we'll ask next 100 people for opinion and balance game around that.

> @"Xilent.7046" said:

> Count me in: Xilent.7046

>

Hey there! We are recruiting through Discord only. Sorry if it wasn't clear enough in recruitment post.

Shiverpeaks and Ascalon.