ArmageddonAsh.6430

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> I don't see why you're asking for new weapons when almost all of the ones that Necro has right now are trash. If they add any more, it'd be best to just remove what already exists. Or just compact what little good rests in the Necro weapon line-up into 2-3 weapons that aren't hot garbage.

Pretty much this. Necro doesnt have any real good weapons. They are either fast and hit like a wet noodle or slow do great damage but easily avoided. Given how many weaknesses Necro has (ranged, CC, Sustain, Burst, mobility, stealth) Nothing can save necro. There is NO way the next spec will cover most (if any of these) weaknesses as it would make Base, Reaper and Scourge unused. These are issues EVERY necro spec seemingly MUST have :/

I would like a Pistol/Pistol Pure power based weapon or a defensive/bunker Hammer. likely wont get either :/

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> GS 4 can be a pretty good defensive skill. No good player will walk inside of it to hit you. But be careful for thiefes, they can port in and hit you before blindness is on them.

The problem with that is, EVERYONE has ranged attacks and Necro has by FAR the worst counters to range spam in the game. I cant think of another class that is as weak to range as Necro. Then as you mention Thieves able to jump in, spam attack and get out before it even procs. Warriors will laugh off the blind and such.

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> In general gravedigger is most likely only to cleave downs, especially when people try to rezz them.

> Combo of GS 5 into 4 into 3 works 90% of the times, as almost noone is fast enough to use a stunbreak while being pulled.

Yeah Gravedigger is just too telegraphed that everyone and their grandma knows how to avoid it as its huge telegraph and long wind up. Does work great on downed people though. I think Gs4 needs its effect ICD reduced from 2 seconds to 1 second. The problem with that combo, the further away the are. The easier that combo is to avoid. As Gs5 is very easy to get away from if you are at reasonable range.

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> Make sure what you want to do.

> GS is most likely for baiting out dodges.

I guess that is true, as everything is so easy to dodge, the threatening skills are TOO easy to dodge. Not sure what you mean by the first part.

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> Like deceiver said. Axe 2 and shroud are your dmg sources. But axe autoattacks can be also pretty annoying to deal with.

> I almost never use GS autoattacks. Use superior sigill of agility on gs. It's really nice to have one fast skill of GS when swapping.

Never been a fan of Axe. I do have an Ascended Axe so i guess i could give it a try. What would you recommend to run with it? Yeah my Greatsword (was being used on Dragonhunter) has Agility and Intelligence on it. Would you swap Intelligence or keep it?

> @"Catchyfx.5768" said:

> Gs4 And gs5 Is good but gs3 And gs2 Is rly hard to hit. I played staff Axe/wh.i Think Its JUST personal opinion. GS Is good if you have a party with you

The problem is, everyone knows to range spam the necro, i do wish that Gs4 was like an aura that destroyed projectiles on top of its current boon removal and blind and cripple application. Gs5 is okay. Quite easy to avoid though. Yeah i am thinking the same. It seems more of a group weapon.

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> It's honestly not even worth playing reaper without GS most of the time.

I would argue with this, theme wise i would agree. Gameplay wise i would disagree. It's not needed and in quite a few ways its a bad weapon, but it look so cool that its just disappointing.

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Just don't try to use it to deal damage, and above all, do not try to make Gravedigger work. Use it for LF gen, CC, boon corruption, and utility/sustain and gap closing and interrupts via skill 5 and chaining with CttB. Your primary sources of damage are shroud and Ghastly Claws on MH Axe. Do not try for the third hit of the AA chain unless you know it'll land and have no better course of action. If you can get damage off with it, great. Otherwise, its slowness is going to just open you up to being killed.

Interesting. So you use it for Life Force Gen? Doesnt that kinda waste the potential damage? I mean it can hit hard. Its just not very well designed. This weapon would be PERFECT on say a warrior. A class that can take insane damage and shrug it off. Has insane mobility to keep in melee and such, on Necro which is VERY slow, easily kited, easily killed it just doesnt really work in a WvW/PvP setting.

I don't use Axe. I kinda find it boring, I prefer Dagger/Warhorn for sustain, leeching, CC, mobility (kinda) and does decent damage and comes with boon hate and an immobilize. With Scepter/Dagger as my other set for ranged, boon corruption, Cripple, Condi transfer, good weakness application. Its only real kinda weakness is poor Life Force generation

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> The best way to phrase how to use GS is the following:

> If you try to make GS a primary weapon for all situations, it will be terrible. If you play to its strengths and don't try to force its weaknesses to work, it's one of the best weapon choices on necromancer in general due to the sheer utility it offers, and easily is a substantial reason why reaper is playable.

I would agree with that the problem is, what are its strengths? It doesnt exactly do anything that other weapons cant already do. It has MANY more weaknesses than strengths. Slow, unreliable to hit, Gs4 and Gs5 are the best skills but easy to avoid. Combined with how slow Necro is you can just be easily kited with it equipped :(

So, i am loving playing Reaper and the main reason i even made one was for the Greatsword, it looks awesome like a Dark Knight sort of thing, except. Reaper was meant to be a slow but unstoppable (within reason...) killing machine which we all know was totally wrong but can the Greatsword work in WvW? Especially with roaming, i just feel that its FAR too slow with Necro being so insanely slow in movement and everything, the last thing they should use is a VERY slow attacking weapon. Everyone else is like The Flash when it comes to Necro mobility with all the teleports, rushes and everything else making it kinda unviable? Of course in zergs and blobs it should be fine. Charging through the downed mowing them down but i do like my roaming as well :(

So, my question: Can Greatsword be viable? What builds/sigil combos would you suggest to make the most of it. Currently i am running Dagger/Warhorn and Scepter/Dagger. More of a hybrid, leaning towards Power but i have decent condi damage for scepter and my boon corrupts to be more helpful.

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> Yes i know xD but thats really not what im aiming for, such skills should be toned down by A LOT in my opinion.

No chance they will be, in fact they will get MUCH worse. Anet wont ever tone down the mindless "1" spam because, the player base needs it. Since the release and thanks to Anet the player base has gotten SO bad in terms of actual skill level because most builds and classes dont need skill to be played and win with. Its Build > Skill. Nothing will change that.

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> The Auto is just bad, i mean, Autos are never meant to be awesome

Say that to those that can deal 5k+ auto attacks with barely a cast time and/or from 1,200+ range...

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> You mean like the 90% dodge uptime thief and rest 10% running/teleporting away?

>

> It's really kitten annoying. Anet making zero challenging pve content, and then make classes like spellbreaker and thief so freaking op in 1v1 fights, that almost everyone can play them and win fights, even though they don't have a clue what they are doing

Don't forget the condi dodge spammers as well. They are a DELIGHT to "fight" and it barely scrapes being a fight. Its a tedious, tedious encounter. What i find odd, Necro has the MOST counters in the game. I would even argue they arent the best condition builds either. As every other condi build has more sustain, more defense, more mobility. Necro itself, what can it counter? Not much. yes it can punish Boon spammers but being very immobile, weak to sustain, weak to burst, weak to range, weak to kiting, weak to everything?

That is why i am enjoying my Reaper build. It is EASILY countered thanks to Anets VERY poor design but its still fun to play and when you win, you KNOW you won because you played better and you just have to shrug off most of the deaths because most of them could be played by dreadful players and still due to design of Necro they have the advantage all the time :/

> @"JayAction.9056" said:

> 99% of WvW revs are playing garbage specs, with low damage.

You got any proof of this "99%"? No? Didn't think so. Now you could say in YOUR opinion that 99% of them are running garbage specs dont try and make it out to be fact. It's not.

> @"JayAction.9056" said:

> 1. Rev damage is pathetically low in all game modes.

That is quite odd for the "all game modes" Because i see Heralds and base Revs pretty much everywhere in WvW from Zergs, to Groups, to roaming. I have seen them in all of these today alone. Granted, No Renegades. Everyone knows that spec was DoA and needs HEAVY fixes and changes. The same isnt the case for the other 2 specs. They can hit like an absolute truck!

No thanks. Staff is easy enough as it is. Having TWO ranged weapons that have conditions on auto attacks? Thanks but no. I would prefer Staff actually getting turned into a Melee Condition weapon similar to how staff on Revenant is. I can dream....

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> It's a simple no brains build for old folks like me that can't react fast and need more room for errors XD

These are the kinda builds why balance is broken. When it becomes Build > Skill. Your game has issues. Shame that Anet went with the casual player approach. Make lazy broken builds so anyone can win fights. Not saying you are one, though the build is rather cheese. Same goes for most Condi builds these days :(

Been playing around with a Spite/Blood Magic/Reaper Hybrid with SoV and managed to win against a Condi Berserker Warrior and killed a Scrapper Engineer that came in to help his friend. Was quite fun. Then you get the other side where i got jumped by a Deadeye thief that i couldnt even touch die to all the teleporting and stealth :/

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> Yeah, the signet sucks compared to Warri or Ele, or even thief to some extend. Its passive effects needs to be a lot stronger BASELINE. Or it needs a decent on hit heal, and by decent i mean strong. It should be at least 50% higher as warriors signet in times of fight to compensate for not being "in use" when kiting or when being disabled.

> Also the active part should not have an ICD. Seriously, in times of Blood Reckoning and Facet of Light its healing wouldnt be too strong and its damage portion would actually be dangerous if used at the right time.

I'd be happy if they removed the group aspect and removed the ICD on the active. Maybe a change of effect could be made. Make it heal depending on your level of Life Force or something. This way you always get the heal. Even if they keep the 1second ICD you still get the heal. I'd say make it heal more the lower your life force is?

> @"Warscythes.9307" said:

> Too lazy to read the entire thing but vamp signet is not used due to mostly 3 reasons.

>

> 1) It doesn't offer condi cleanse. Necro in general actually are not great with condition clearing, this is different from condition transfer since those can miss. It is why consume condition is used is practically every necro pvp build ever.

>

> 2) It doesn't deal more damage than blood fiend. This is more on the pve side, assuming you are purely min/maxing on damage; blood fiend will do more damage overall. While vamp signet does offer some group heal, you are better off taking blood well if you really care about being supportive.

>

> 3) cd and cast time are too long. It has the same cast time and cd as consume condition but does not offer enough benefits to counter the full condi cleanse.

>

> I think in general vamp signet should be designed mostly as an offense healing skill akin to guardian's Litany of Wrath. Put more power in the active instead of the passive. It needs to do more damage than blood fiend but less passive healing.

>

> Reduce the cd and cast time(1/4? same as LoW). Greatly increase the damage/heal of the active siphon, tone up the duration of the marks. Reduce the active base heal. Maybe buff spiteful renewal in spite to 2 condi cleanse instead of 1 on using heal skill. Hell maybe even stick a 2-3 second quickness in there just to further cement its status.

My opinions:

1) i dont mind that it doesnt offer condition removal. I think its a good idea. Already got a heal that does that. I wouldn't say that Necro are that weak with clearing/removing/transferring conditions. Got so many options that i dont think Consume Conditions is really that needed for its removals.

2) Can't comment on this as i WvW and Blood Fiend just sucks. Easily killed. First target. At least with SoV cant remove the effects. Wouldn't the 25 procs of it for allies out do the damage that blood Fiend would do? I assume the 25 stacks with 1 second ICD is per a player? Maybe if they removed this group aspect they could buff the skill up a little bit?

3) The cool down is fine, Traited if you're not Scourge the cool down reduction is pretty good. I do agree with the cast time, it just shouldnt be that long. Its the passive effect that i am not a fan of.

I would make it a Necro only skill, remove the group support. Make the passive so that it heals you for a % of the damage you take. This would help against burst builds but wouldnt be as strong against sustain and Condi builds. Thus still having a counter. The active remove the Leech damage. Add in an unblockable aspect and make it so that it heals you for a % of the damage that you deal. I think the Cool down is just about fine, when traited.Maybe reducing the cool down would be okay as the lower the cool down the weaker the trait cool down becomes so it wouldnt be as strong Cast time without a doubt needs a cast time reduction.

> @"Sinful.2165" said:

> I see. The only reason I play condi reaper like that is because I use ascended viper for scourge in PvE but enjoy playing reaper more so for anything that isn’t high fractals or raids I run as reaper but with the same gear and traited to take advantage of the condi stats. ;)

>

> It’s nice having the two play styles with one set of armor, though of course I do swap from scepter/torch to axe/wh and GS.

>

> You should give scourge a try if you like the scepter. They have an AoE fear that fits much better with the necro play style imo. Plus access to the torch which has pretty neat skills.

yeah im not really a fan of condi builds as they are just a little too easy to play for the most part. Hybrid i do like and thats kinda what i am running. I have played Scourge, again Hybrid with Scepter/Dagger and Dagger/Torch and its quite fun. Still has the Necro level of issues - Mobility, low sustain, CC weak and such but its not too bad to play. the issue is, the kinda build im running with Base Necro and Reaper doesnt work very well with Scourge as its shroud form has a 30second cool down and i have many traits and such that affect going in and out of Shroud such as Boons, condition removal and such

> @"TheAgedGnome.7520" said:

> Healing Signet is 344/s at 0HP and 364 at 400HP. So over the course of a minute, it would grant 364 * 60 = 21,840 heal/min. That's about in line with the total healing I got. (Yes, I had to get hit for it SoV to work, but if I wasn't hit, it probably wouldn't matter.) SoV alone or CC alone or WoB alone are around half that value. If you have no other passive healing, then you are technically much worse off than HS.

>

> To me, SoV, WoB, CC are all somewhat weak if they are the only source of healing. The "problem" is that Anet gave necro enough ways to add passive healing (it doubled my healing!) that if they radically increase SoV/WoB/CC then necros will be built to never die, unless Anet also eliminates or severely reduces all other passive heals, which would be so non-necro. I don't see why this is an SoV specific issue - its roughly the same healing amounts for all three methods, so if SoV is underpowered, then so is CC and WoB.

Yeah, they get similar healing, for just having it equipped. Nothing else. Equip and forget. Yes you might get similar healing BUT you have to take damage and with the broken balance of burst damage when it comes to WvW, it makes it MUCH weaker. The warrior could run away, use blocks, kite and STILL get the healing. The way Anet though that it was good design that you should take damage to get healing in a game where you can take INSANE damage just doesnt make much sense. If they changed it to a % of the incoming damage. That COULD work but not sure how it would work against groups. Though i am sure as a Necro which cant run away or anything, They would still die. It would be about balancing it well.

Consume Conditions i think works fine as the only heal due to the added efefct of removing all conditions you have on you which can save you a LOT of health. SoV just seems like its missing something. It says something that i cant remember the last time i saw someone in WvW with SoV because its just too far off being a viable healing skill.

The issue is, that you need to be taking damage to get healing, which wouldnt be so bad if the passive heal wasnt so meh. You take a 5k auto attack. You heal for like 600 then you take another 5k auto attack and get no heal. So in 1 second you have still taken like 9,400 damage. I think turning it to be something like:

Passive: Heal for % of the damage you take

Active: Heal for % of the damage you deal

The passive just isnt that strong considering you are having to take damage to get it, unless you are fighting bunker builds with no boons or REALLY bad condition builds the healing you get from it isnt strong enough to counter the fact you need to be constantly getting hit

> @"Sinful.2165" said:

> I don’t run anything that gives bleed (that I recall off hand). Yeah the chill gives actual bleed stacks.

>

> You can trait for blind to cause chill which will also cause bleed and makes that well that pulses blind start to look much more appealing. Also you can RS5 for the ice field and RS4 whirl finisher inside of it to send chill bolts out that in turn cause more bleeding.

>

> Just fooling around on my reaper running well of darkness, the AoE elite shout and using combos in ice fields puts out a pretty big stack of bleeds.

>

> Edit: Oh also the spite specialization trait that triggers the ice blast and the reaper trait that does another ice blast attacking a chilled enemy. There is also RS2 blind (+chill +bleed). And GS4 blind.

Ah, I saw the bleeding, i just thought it was from the trait proccing at the right time. Checked again and it does indeed inflict a bleed. So that does make GS slightly more viable. Only problems would be Losing Blighters boon which with Spite grants SO much Might and healing in Shroud. The auto attack on GS is just too slow for it to really be that viable. Scepter does it quicker, applies more conditions. Corrupts a boon and can be done from range.

yeah i am just playing around really, trying to get back into the game. Played a bit on Core Necro so i kinda want a build that can work between them both so i dont really have to change traits or gear as much.

> @"Sinful.2165" said:

> The reaper grandmaster trait that makes chill cause bleeding opens up your options a bit for getting the bleed threshold. Jus so you don’t feel like you’re stuck with scepter.

Does it actually count as a bleed though? It just says that it deals damage over time. The icon being Bleeding could be typical Anet design and it not actually count as a chill. The other problem would be. Getting enough chill to be able to hit the 4stack. If Greatsword wasnt so slow and if chill counted as a bleed, then that could be an option with the auto attack applying Chill (iirc?) It has been a while since i last used GS so dunno if they changed that.

EDIT: As i suspected, the "bleed" from Deathly Chill isnt actually a bleed, it uses the icon but doesnt count as one (should really have a new icon...)

> @"TheAgedGnome.7520" said:

> No, _with_ Last Rites it was 325/445 as I reported.

>

> > Wouldnt you get more healing out of Blood Bond? Only issue would be needing to use Scepter (or Earth Sigil) and the use of Death Shroud.

>

> Right, Blood Bond doesn't do me any good on my axe/dagger power build (not enough bleeds).

>

> 1) I've been running SoV for quite awhile now, and as long as I invest in Blood line and some HP, it works well. I have quite good survivability. No, I can't run a min-max build with 0 HP and get good results, but there's no reason min-max should get a free lunch. I don't see Anet granting more heal per hit, although I could _maybe_ see a CD reduction to 0.75s or 0.5s, but even then its tricky, as it runs the risk of taking my 12.2K/min to 24.4K/min healing from SoV alone. That would be OP.

>

> 2) Converting SoV to per-attack instead of per-hit means the heal rate is now gated by your weapons attack times and CDs, and it no longer scales by the number of attackers. Both of those seem to not work since with a single attacker I could just use auto-attack and likely never die, but against multiple mobs, I'm not gaining enough extra healing, and I'm penalized for using long attack time/CD skills.

>

> 3) Because it is on-hit, SoV is a good choice for my facetanking power build and a poor choice for a kiting condi build. That doesn't make SoV bad, it just makes it build-dependent.

>

ah, so the healing Power increase is outside of combat as well? I didnt think that the build editor would show it applied, my mistake. Yeah that is my issue at the moment. Works fine with Scepter, obviously but not so great with dagger. Been giving Sigil of Earth a try, see if i can get a reasonable application to make it proc well enough. The only issue seems to be that the sigil doesnt proc enough in Shroud, with Dagger it isnt too bad. I have 40% Crit chance, so thinking i need to improve it a little bit more.

1) Though it has its counters. Conditions for a start. Burst damage. It would be strong against bunker builds granted. It wouldnt be as if it wouldn't have its own counters. When you're taking 5k+ auto attacks, the heal it grants isnt going to be that great. Though an idea could be to make it convert a % of the incoming damage to healing and then make the active a % of your out going damage into healing?

2) Maybe they could make it a mix between per cast and per hit, so if you hit someone then you get a heal. If you dont hit anyone then you don't. The difference would be that the heal would be from the hit. So you get the same healing if you hit one person and 100 people.

3) When you compare it to other kinda similar skills. Which dont have that weakness. Healing Signet for example. Heal no matter what. You're running? Heal. You're taking damage? Heal. Not taking damage? Heal. Thats the problem. The skill would still be very weak to conditions, would still be weak to insane burst damage be weaker to strong but low attacks as well.

> @"steki.1478" said:

> Again, you just complain for the sake of complaining. Builds who use SoR

> 1. almost never use auto attacks since there are much better skills to use

> 2. absolutely never even cast water auto attack on dagger since it's usless

>

> So not only that SoV outheals SoR passively, it has even bigger active heal+siphon.

>

> The fact that SoV heals when being hit is irrelevant since it always happens in combat. SoR heals **per cast** because ele skills have cooldown and cast time, unlike thief whose signet heals **per hit** but skills have neither of those 2.

>

> Then you're adding irrelevant water traits to this equation. Fine. How much health does necro have compared to ele? How much health does shroud give? How much life force can you get during combat to reactivate shroud? How much health can you leech/siphon while in shroud that heals your regular HP? How many traits on necro are you sacrificing for sustain? How many for condi cleanses? How many condi transfers does it have? How many gear stats are you using on defense (vit/tgh/healing)?

>

> Please stop trying to compare with class you know nothing about and focus on your thread title.

Firstly. You are wrong. People who use SoR WILL be using auto attacks. Why? No cool down. Can be (most of them...) be used when running/Kitting someone. can be used with no target thus getting healed because you know, its per a CAST and not when you hit something. So people WILL be using the auto attack and if they don't. Well, they are wasting the healing. Unless they plan on using abilities to get the healing, though getting cool downs on their skills seem a little bit much for what they get back.

Imagine: You are running/Kiting someone. They are melee. You are at range. You have the option to use cool down abilities to get healing OR you can spam auto attack at nothing and get healing. What are you going to choose? Again, its not the damage that it does, its the cast time. You're going to want to be using the weapon skills that have the lowest cast time, this isnt a problem for some weapons like Sword as all auto attacks have the same. Thus you wont be missing too much how ever, some can be double that of other auto attacks. Like with staff you're better off using Air, Earth or Water over Fire as Fire is 1second and the others are 3/4second. Not a huge difference but every little helps.

Yes. It heals more IF you're being attacked. Therefore. Being hit and LOSING health. I would take slightly less healing and NOT need to be taking damage to get that healing. Granted the active is better. though again can be slightly wasted if you use it and someone goes range/LoS or what ever. You cant hit. You cant heal. So the active heal part is higher due to the extra 10second cool down that it has over SoR as well which is something that needs to be remembered. Without The active healing part that can be countered in 1minute fight, the active heals are reasonably similar as you can get 2 SoV off but 3 of SoR.

Yeah, so in a 1 minute fight, you have to be getting hit every 1second to get healing. SoR can be used on auto attacks alone that have half the cast time, thus used twice as fast. This is of course ignoring any instant cast use abilities they have. They can get healing every 1/2second even if they arent hitting anyone. As long as they can press the button. they are getting healed.

How many necros consider Death Shroud and Reaper shroud as extra health bars? Havent many been saying for a LONG time that it isn't a second health bar. yes it will block damage for a few seconds BUT the more they get hit, the less useful their shroud is as they wont be in it for as long. Thus losing the damage they offer.

Most of the last bit is highly dependent on the Shroud you use. You wouldnt want to be in Death Shroud for Leeching effects due to the long cast time of Auto attack and such, where as in Reaper its MUCH stronger, add in the blighters boon and such and Reaper is WAY better than Death Shroud for leeching. Where as for scourge, other than Transfusion (due to lower skill 4 cool down) the leech traits kinda suck for that "shroud"

> @"steki.1478" said:

> Ok, ok, let me stop you there. At this point you're comparing ele with 500+ healing power to a necro with 0. What are you trying to achieve with that point? And please tell me what are those lots and lots of fast hitting abilities...

>

> edit: ...and the rest of response isnt very bright either. What does water spec have to do with any of those signets? Necro player mentality keeps getting better and better lately. They start talking about one thing and focus on every single thing that necros dont have but others do, and are completely irrelevant to the main problem. Just wonderful, keep it up.

At BASE healing Power. It heals for about 406 (give or take) every second. Doesnt need to be getting attacked. Doesnt need to actually be hitting someone either. i could up that to nearly 500 per 1second (again not needing to be hit) if i had like 3-400 Healing Power. Look at the above, comparing with his healing power (which is higher) Vs mine.

Taking Water for the best Auto attack. Dagger Water is 1/2second cast time. Thus. You're going to want to be in Water to get the best healing from it. This isn't something that SoV can do, as its a flat amount when you get hit. Pretty sure If it was based on you attacking, then people would be using Dagger as its example over say Scepter due to the faster auto attacks. Tried sticking with base Ele, as if went with Weaver the Sword Water skill also heals so it would be higher on that, though for the most part lots of the auto attacks are 1/2second cast time, Its just slower on certain weapons.

Comparing a Healing skill that heals per a cast, heals even if you dont hit something (poor design imo) against one that REQUIRES you to be hit. If SoV was changed to maybe a % of incoming direct damage heals you. So making it better to sustain them down, or Condi them down to be the better opinion. I mean if you're taking like a 5k hit every 1/2second getting a single proc of healing for 604 (traited) isnt going to do much for you. Being able to AVOID getting hit and STILL get healing will always be stronger.

> @"TheAgedGnome.7520" said:

> For some data....

>

> In an OW fight w/3 mobs just now I was passive healed 22 times in a minute by Signet of Vampirism for 555-584 per occurrence. 555 * 22 = 12,210 hp/min.

>

> By contrast, Consume Conditions is 5,674 (+ 767 per condi) with a 30s CD. In this case, SoV is equal or superior to CC. Upside was that this was entirely passive, and I didn't even touch the ~5K active initial heal; downside is it doesn't help with condition removal.

>

> In total, for one minute:

> * **Signet of Vampirism** 555-584 per occurrence. 555 * 22 = **12,210**

> * **Vampiric Strikes** healed 95 times for 41, so 95 8 41 = **3,895**

> * **Vampiric Rituals** w/Well of Suffering added 20 * 225 = **4,500**

> * **Life Siphon** (Dagger2) 8 * 494 = **3,952**

> * **Total passive healing** for 1 minute: **24,557**

>

> This is with HP of 325/445 (due to weapons difference - most of fight was at 325).

> Build:

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRQQRAnY4Yn0ICN2gl2Au0A0uhjchaOEj9UQLj1oZhBQDkAA-jRiEwACViFw0XOlHk0IwS9nCKBBYGYj+gT7PQKg8UGB-e

>

>

Yeah, you got healed 22 times. You also got hit 22 times. I am assuming that isn't base healing power? Looks like you had a minimum of 475 Healing power. It wouldnt be 325, as you have the trait Last Rites which gives you 150 Healing power when above 75% health. Now. Lets look at SoR. In that same spam of 1 minute. Using just auto attacks and ZERO healing power. I woulds be proccing heals every 1/2second (Using Dagger Water) so i would be proccing the heal 44 times is 8,888 healing. With 382 Healing power, again easily done for an Ele is 10,560. This is slightly less healing BUT this healing doesnt require the ele to be hit. So i could get 10,500 healing without taking any damage. You have to get HIT 22 times. Something you dont really want to happen. Though if we are adding other forms of healing, i could add the Soothing Mists, the healing from Water skills and such as well. Adding Soothing Mists would add another 11,800 Healing (untraited) Take the trait and that DOUBLES so i could get MORE passive Healing from Traited Soothing Mists and increasing the healing power to 400 would be around 24,000 healing in 1minute with just needing to be in Water. Not attacking. not getting hit.

Wouldnt you get more healing out of Blood Bond? Only issue would be needing to use Scepter (or Earth Sigil) and the use of Death Shroud. The trait means that you reduce the cool down by 4% meaning every 1second you're in Shroud the trait cool down is reduced by 1.8seconds and the healing is like 3,300 so over the course of the fight you would get it off 4 times (assuming ZERO use of Shroud) meaning 13,200 healing in total. Vs the 2 uses of Well of Suffering which is 2,664 total healing

> @"steki.1478" said:

> SoR heals for 200 per attack. The only time where it would heal 1000 is on scepter burst which happens in 1-2 seconds. So it's not 1000 heal **per** second, it's 1000 heal **for** one second. You heal for 1k per second only with 500+ healing power when you manage to cast 3 skills every second, which is again, not easy to manage constantly due to cast times on most of ele skills.

>

> Since we're already talking about ele's signet. Active heal is 3300 compared to 5000 on necro, it doesnt do damage and it doesnt heal you when you use it (unlike siphon part on necro which heals for additional 500 per second). Yes passive part sucks, but it's not even comparable to ele because they work completely different, opposite even.

>

> And you cant just remove ICD on either active or passive part because it would be broken in any smaller fights due to nearly instant burst/heal (active) or basically unkillable in 1vx (passive).

It heals for 200 per an attack, doesnt matter if you land it or anything. Combine that with the lots and lots of fast hitting abilities that Ele come with. I said it CAN be, with the right build you can easily reach 1k+ healing from the various passive abilities and skill use. The only ele that doesnt have that much healing power would be staff zerg eles, everyone else runs mixes of Cele and such so 500 healing power is easy to get. It isn't really that hard to get 8-900, maybe a 1k healing at a squeeze as remember its per a CAST not landing.

Add in the use of Water which will usually come with Water Trait line and the passive healing of Soothing Mists which is like 100 healing (no healing power) add in the trait that doubles that. That alone is like 1,000 Healing in 2 seconds being in water = using Dagger auto attack 4 times, Soothing Mists proccing twice. Seeing as how you dont have to hit anything, you can do it while running away or kitting as well.

10 second less cool down helps a little bit in terms of the difference, SoV does help with groups, Is it 1second ICD per an attack of the active for each person? I mean the damage is meh but still better than nothing but again it can be countered. Blocks, invuls, range, mobility, CC pretty much everything Necro is weak at lol

I wouldnt say "just" remove it, it would of course need tweaking numbers wise. It could be done similar how SoR works (if they went with the attack version) make it so you get the heal IF you like an attack on someone, rather than if you are attacking nothing. The passive is 325 So SoR is actually better. In that 1 second SoR can heal for just over 400, plus can continue to heal when not getting hit, unlike SoV. Where you HAVE to continue taking damage every second or you get nothing. This is where one of the issues come in. Healing Signet and SoR you get healing no matter. you dont need to be attacking someone, you dont need to be getting hit or anything. I didnt say remove ALL the ICD as the active is a stronger heal the ICD is fine, plus you get he minor damage bonus.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> If I recall correctly, anet's position on long lasting effects that punish the attacker when it hit it's target is unfun to play against and unfun to use. That's why there is no damage attached to the passive siphon. As for why there is an ICD on the passive healing part, it's because it would be op otherwise.

Would it be that OP? Look at the healing that you can get from Healing Signet or Signet of Restoration. They can both do rather good healing. Even with no healing power, Signet of Restoration can be like 900-1000 healing per a second, especially with the use of Dagger Air auto attack AND if it hasnt been fixed, you get the healing when attacking air as well.

Untraited, even if they removed the ICD it would still be weaker than BOTH Healing Signet and Signet of Restoration. Healing Signet is equip and forget no requirements for the healing. Signet of Restoration gets healing based on how much you press the button, not if you hit anyone or anything. Even traited, i am not sure if it would be that game breaking.

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Passive is good if you are being pegged from ranged attacks. Didn't we just have a thread on this? Probably still on the first page.

Ah so there is, 3rd from bottom. Didnt see it.

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> Only Warriors and ele allowed to have good HS

Yeah it seems like it. If they just removed the ICD then i think it could become really strong, playing around with a Reaper build that comes with Blighter's Boon Lesser Signer of Vampirism, Vampiric, Vampiric Presence, Signets of suffering and Signet of Vampirism. At the moment trying to find the best way to get stacks and stacks of bleeding on someone without using Scepter. Kinda looking at Sigil of Earth on a Dagger as Signets of Suffering counts for Lesser signet of Vampirism which is 20second cool down and procs after applying 4 bleeds,the trait effect also affects this, so like every like 5seconds in Shroud brings the cool down nearly back off

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBLRhG2JNiQ1mY5Ng7mA9mYpXwmyaDh5F0YqAEAifiTxrIA-jFBEwAFOCA23fAwDAIxJBQUAbF-w

This is what i have at the moment, gear wise its currently a mix of Condi (needs replacing) and Cele