Israel.7056

100 percent agree been saying it for years. It's one of the primary changes I would make to WvW if I could.

Then I'd limit the game to about 10 amulets and just balance around those.

> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> > > I didn't know ppt is done by tryhard and not because they prefer that.

> >

> > Nothing wrong with taking a few things here and there or attacking stuff to get a fight. I'm talking about the kind of players who will spend their entire playtime every single day just trying to flip stuff instead of fight people. The kind of players who will hop maps if they think there's no one defending stuff there. Those are the PPT tryhards and they are the kind of players who get ridiculed on Mag until they either stop or transfer and for good reason imo.

>

> I didn't know not playing the way you want to play is tryhard. The world sure change a lot.

Well now you know.

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> Only Mag would consider using 25 v 5 a "fight" :lol:

If you honestly feel like you're that outnumbered in every single fight you're ever in then that's an issue with your server or your rotations not with your opponent.

> But I could believe kill death ratio, I have lost count the amount of times I've killed myself trying to fight mag players right outside their gates while they have people on cannons or AC's.

Yeah I'm sure all 16k kills were from singles running into cannons. More likely the TC carebear hordes getting farmed as usual.

> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> I didn't know ppt is done by tryhard and not because they prefer that.

Nothing wrong with taking a few things here and there or attacking stuff to get a fight. I'm talking about the kind of players who will spend their entire playtime every single day just trying to flip stuff instead of fight people. The kind of players who will hop maps if they think there's no one defending stuff there. Those are the PPT tryhards and they are the kind of players who get ridiculed on Mag until they either stop or transfer and for good reason imo.

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> My personal KDR is 3-10 depending on the week. I am here to help the team get the highest score on the scoreboard I can. And yes, I have thrown myself into a camp ring 1 or 2 vs 5+ many times, ran back a few times, just long enough for a few of us to hold it till we can get numbers to repel. Those are wins. The game says at the end of the week whether we won or lost...not whether or not a team died more. Kills and deaths are irrelevant stats.

> I have been on TC since launch, and wvw is about all I do (I finish diamond on multiple accounts per week most weeks). KDR is not a "skill" stat. Most of the time it is a "number of players on tag" stat. if you always have more players, you will always have a higher KDR (thanks to downstate, blob can res itself).

> A really good example is Saturday morning in SMC. TC had smc at T3. The first half of that skirmish TC was at 1.96, Mag was at 1.03. We had more people.

> The end of that skirmish TC had a 1.21 and Mag had a 1.29. About equal numbers at that point. Numbers win fights. And yes, I have seen Mag field a 10 man comp, tons of sustain and CC, while 15 randoms throw themselves over and over at it...that was last night at Valley, while 4 of us sat on the wall making commentary about how the Zap Brannigan approach wasn't going to work. It is what it is. The winner is still determined by the scoreboard (victory points).

Lol mk.

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Ubi.4136" said:

> > > Edit: if it makes you feel better, I don't think TC has ever won. But, we play to win our matchup every week as best we can because that is how the game was designed.

> >

> > Gate of Madness & Crystal Desert

> > Kills: 7,134

> > Deaths: 11,178

> > Ratio: 0.64

> > Ehmry Bay & Tarnished Coast

> > Kills: 10,660

> > Deaths: 16,804

> > Ratio: 0.63

> > Maguuma

> > Kills: 16,242

> > Deaths: 7,041

> > Ratio: 2.31

> >

> > Does this feel like a win to you?

>

> Every major sport in existence...person with the highest score on the scoreboard at the end of the game wins.

> It doesn't matter if you have 1000 yards rushing, if the other team scores more points, has a higher score on the board, they win.

> This isn't pvp.

>

> Anet designed the game, and victory points is the scoreboard that determines who wins each week.

> TC 117

> CD 92

> Mag 79

>

> Yes, we are winning this matchup. It is the way the game is designed. Nothing you say will change the rules of the game the way Anet designed it to be. We constantly throw bodies to their deaths to try to contest, knowing it means our kills/deaths ratio is gonna suck. But the scoreboard is what it is.

> I will point out that "winning" T4 is nothing to brag about, but we are actually trying to win the game the way it was designed every week. Past few months alone we have gone from T4 to T1 and back down again. It is what it is.

But does it feel like a win if you're getting farmed like mobs whenever you actually have to fight? Is that PPT win really worth it to you?

> @"Shagaliscious.6281" said:

> Mag went to T1 because of your link server, that actually defended stuff outside of EBG, evidenced by your inability to climb out of T3 when you have no link.

Most of the big name guilds/commanders who carried Mag to t1 were on Mag not the link. Almost all of them are gone now or barely play the game anymore.

The link was a nice supplement but I think it was ultimately unnecessary at that point in time, Xushin saw to that.

Nowadays it's true that Mag usually gets a bunch of bandwagon PPT trash whenever there's a link but they get ridiculed so hard they usually leave the server or stop playing if they can't win fights. In this way Mag filters its trash to some degree and prevents ppt tryharding.

Still, it's a coverage thing, It's always a coverage thing. If Mag had any significant OCX/SEA presence it would probably be in t2 whether NA played or not.

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> Edit: if it makes you feel better, I don't think TC has ever won. But, we play to win our matchup every week as best we can because that is how the game was designed.

Gate of Madness & Crystal Desert

Kills: 7,134

Deaths: 11,178

Ratio: 0.64

Ehmry Bay & Tarnished Coast

Kills: 10,660

Deaths: 16,804

Ratio: 0.63

Maguuma

Kills: 16,242

Deaths: 7,041

Ratio: 2.31

Does this feel like a win to you?

I've thought for a long time that they should just make ascended gear tradeable. I'd gladly sell you some of my gear if I could.

Kinda hard to say if I'd like it or not but I'd be down to try it. I've never played Planetside 2 or any MMO that had anything like this "lattice linking" so I don't really have any experience to pull from. Sounds interesting though, anything to change things up at this point will probably be fun just for the novelty of it.

> @"Aeolus.3615" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > @"Warlord.9074" said:

> > > > Bad players can no longer be carried. Not sure if this is a con or a pro. IMO it's a pro but the vocal minority here probably think this is a con.

> > >

> > > Sure they can. I recently saw a condi mirage that could barely hit me. He tried. He failed. I didnt take any damage. The few condis I got I cleansed. Unfortunetly, he killed an ele next to me instead - which I easily ressed while taking no damage. We then killed him after a couple of minutes of him trying to repeatedly hide behind guards (his last ditch effort to burst me yeilded zero damage).

> > >

> > > With no downed state that ele would have been killed by a pretty meh condi mirage. That's pretty much the definition of being carried.

> > >

> > > Worst case scenario is that *two* bad players got carried.

> > >

> > > Downed state isnt as simple as "only bad people die".

> >

> > It seems to me the obvious takeaway from this anecdote is that the ele deserved to die and you didn't.

>

> Yeah but the current TTK is not tuned w/o downstate, reason downstate exists (mostly for pve reasons than pvp tho).

> And instant death plus the current imba and easy access to easy gimmicks due whom game builded for would make the no downstate even worse and make players having more access to be carried than hever..

>

> Humm maybe not all classes should have acces to the same rezz ??? That could be tricky and make game worse if bad re-designed(forked) >_>"

>

I think many would argue that TTK isn't well tuned now even with downed state. It's just a matter of personal preference.

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Warlord.9074" said:

> > Bad players can no longer be carried. Not sure if this is a con or a pro. IMO it's a pro but the vocal minority here probably think this is a con.

>

> Sure they can. I recently saw a condi mirage that could barely hit me. He tried. He failed. I didnt take any damage. The few condis I got I cleansed. Unfortunetly, he killed an ele next to me instead - which I easily ressed while taking no damage. We then killed him after a couple of minutes of him trying to repeatedly hide behind guards (his last ditch effort to burst me yeilded zero damage).

>

> With no downed state that ele would have been killed by a pretty meh condi mirage. That's pretty much the definition of being carried.

>

> Worst case scenario is that *two* bad players got carried.

>

> Downed state isnt as simple as "only bad people die".

It seems to me the obvious takeaway from this anecdote is that the ele deserved to die and you didn't.

Not really enough useful information in the OP to try to figure out what happened. Basically just another qq someone killed me post as it's written.

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> > @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > Spvp also has you playing to capture points, not really all that different from wvw just on limited small scale.

> > Your last statement shows what's so wrong with wvw these days, people just want to sit in structures collecting points, there's really a lot more better things to be doing that solely that.

> >

>

> The telling quote is "....there's really a lot more better things to be doing that solely that." You should end that sentence with "...in my opinion". I mean, Anet could just make a borderland with no structures. Just one plot of land. Servers would just stand in the middle and fight. Not sure that sounds fun, at all.

There are ways to stage combat that would reduce the tedium of objectives.

I don't really see the structures as the problem so much as I see the siege, automatic upgrades and tactivators being the problem. All those things put together slow this game down so much if players choose to use them. One thing I've really noticed playing on EU is that almost no one builds much siege. I can go to any keep on any BL and there will be maybe one or two arrow carts and that's it. The difference in approach is startling as anyone on NA knows that most keeps on NA will have 10-15 acs built, ballis, catas behind gates, trebs everywhere. It's just a totally different game on EU and the activity levels here reflect that.

> @"Shagaliscious.6281" said:

> Some people enjoy PPT'ing. A previous guild I was in would much rather try to ninja a T3 keep rather than look for fights. A big reason why I left that guild, but point is they very much enjoy that part. Lots of people enjoy defending structures on the alpine BLs then deal with EBG where fights generally end with you getting ganked by a 1 shot mesmer or thief. You really aren't challenging yourself in that situation, just looking for a player that isn't even focused on you, but someone else. It's like finding a wounded animal and going for the easy kill, rather than hunt and track them down yourself.

Lol.

Option A: Go around trying to ninja t3s

Option B: Defend structures on the BLs

Option C: Go to EBG and get ganked by a mesmer or thief

Those are your choices folks.

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> Actually...I am just surprised that Mag was, at one point, almost non-existent. When I made my initial post, they were ticking 97 or something. I enjoy the defence aspect of WvW - defending a well-sieged keep against a relentless enemy. I also enjoy being that relentless enemy - chipping away at an enemy keep until they can no longer repair.

>

> If I wanted simple group PvP I would play, well, PvP I guess.

So tag up, lead Mag to greatness.

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> > > I just tanked up and played uber-cautiously and didn't die any more than usual. I saw a lot more gank squads doing their fish-in-a-barrel routine near spawn than usual by percentage. I saw more because there *were* more. Those squads were 100% reward/0% risk. That is not balance, and it is not healthy for the game.

> >

> > So this is like guilt by association.

> >

> > Bears are bad> Fish attracts bears > Fish are bad.

> >

>

> Who said bears were bad? When did this meeting take place and why wasn't I informed?

A fair point I also like bears.

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> I just tanked up and played uber-cautiously and didn't die any more than usual. I saw a lot more gank squads doing their fish-in-a-barrel routine near spawn than usual by percentage. I saw more because there *were* more. Those squads were 100% reward/0% risk. That is not balance, and it is not healthy for the game.

So this is like guilt by association.

Bears are bad> Fish attracts bears > Fish are bad.

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> So I shouldn't be allowed to enjoy any form of PvP whatsoever? If all I wanted to do was pve, that's all I would do.

Do you have to be able to win in order to be able to enjoy PvP?

> Melee builds are terrible for pirate ship, which is pretty much all I saw. I ended up switching to a rev later in the week just to get tags.

If you can't handle playing melee don't play melee. Nothing wrong with switching to range if you feel like you need to.

> I saw *tons* more gank squads than normal. They were by far a greater proportion of players that week than usual, because no-down state encourages one-shot gank-and-run tactics.

>

> No downstate --> pirate ship for zergs

> No downstate --> proliferation of cheese gank builds

>

> These are NOT good things for the game.

Well I saw most guilds running full melee ball comp and running people over so maybe you play for a bad server?

I saw more people playing in general that week but I didn't notice any extra gank comps but if they were out there good. I like gank comps they keep people on their toes.

> @"Victory.2879" said:

> No, it means you play cheese build that does enormous damage but can avoid most incoming damage unless you get unlucky and miss a dodge to a telegraphed skill.

>

> No downed state pushes everyone to either play insta gib stealthed or cheese mirage (or a group of them) or bunker up, depending on whether you're roaming or zerging. It promotes the use of cheese (who then exclaim they are 'good' when beating players not built to roam or classes that are running support) and generally makes the game less fun for those that don't like cheese. For those that do like cheese, try spvp. there you will face players who are ready for you and are playing counters. Too tough for you? That's why you're in wvw, for the easy kills against builds that aren't set up against your cheese.

I main rev, how about you? I have a very hard time against mesmers and thieves same as you or anyone else, worse perhaps as mesmer and thief are probably the worst matchups for me personally. I still do fine though so don't project your ineptitude onto me just because you can't figure out how to deal with mesmers and thieves.

> @"BlueMelody.6398" said:

> GW2 is a casual MMO. You want only the elite, go play any of the more hardcore MMO's out there.

Why don't you go play a PvE MMO and just fight E-Dragons?

>Leave those of us whose physical handicaps leave us ONLY this game something to play.

There are other more PvE oriented MMOs you could play if no downed state really makes the game unplayable for you.

> You like fights that depend on fast-twitch reaction speeds, go do sPvP. Large-scale fights with downed state give those of us who depend on anticipation rather than reaction a fighting chance. No-downstate week was completely boring and annoying for melee-based zerg players and those who kept getting ganked out of spawn trying to run back by unbeatable mesmer/thief stealth groups spawn camping us.

If you like slow twitch gameplay go play Auric Basin or something.

I played a melee build most of the time that week and I did fine. Did I have to swap to backline for some comps? Yes. It's not that big of a deal I can play both.

You are going to die to mesmers and thieves with or without downed state if you let yourself get ganked. You need to understand that getting ganked doesn't get any better with downed state. You're not getting ressed if 2 or 3 people jump you by yourself.

> Yes anet, if you want to turn gw2 into a paradise for every internet kitten esports wanabe out there, by all means get rid of the game mechanic that makes your system fairly unique.

Oh please I'm a 32 year old man with a normal life I have no delusions of being an esports player.

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> Not really. If there is no Downed players in need of rezzing, the zerg will just continue to move on and let the people who were defeated run back to the zerg taking their chances in facing Mirages and Thieves being stealthed and looking to gank anybody running by with their one shot builds. If a zerg that is dependent upon their numbers stops to rez those that are downed that gives you a better chance in taking out more of that zerg. Usually when it comes to a zerg only those that were out of range of Stab and Shields are the ones that go down fast. Then those that are more protected will try to rez those that went down. So you usually do not lose many players to the first initial bomb. Once they start to rez those players you start seeing more being picked off as they are losing their protection and Stab and are now down trying to rez instead of trying to attack.

>

> No Downed state favors the larger more skilled players, like some of those in EU that like to hop servers and overload them with dedicated WvW Guilds, and the Elite PvPers that like to roam around on stealth Mirage or Thief builds that can one shot people or gang up with a group of like minded individuals that will place themselves in front of a respawn point ganking those trying to run back to the zerg.

Yes really. If you weren't trucking 10-20 people on your open almost every single fight during no downed state week your server's/guild's damage needs a lot of work. I had many many many fights where basically the entire fight was over in 5 seconds or less. I do so much damage by myself that I even won a few 1v5s that week. I lost my fair share of fights too don't get me wrong but I screwed up in those fights so I deserved the losses.

No downed state favors players who are better at playing without downed state. What does it mean to be to be good without downed state? It means that you're fast and you react quickly and you land your damage precisely and consistently and you don't get out of position and you don't eat damage that you can't survive. It means that you don't expect to fail, you have to plan to actually succeed. It means no one can fix your completely failures. It means you pay for your mistakes much more dearly. All these things are precisely the things that make players actually good in my view. No downed state is like a filter for bad play and bad habits that people have picked up by playing with downed state myself included.

> @"zinkz.7045" said:

> Not really, two zergs of 30, one has better players than other, the one with better players will do better with stomps/resses than the one with worse players, same as if it was 5v5, downstate favours better players.

If they're better players then they should win with or without downed state right?

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> > @"Specialka.7290" said:

> > > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > > > @"Specialka.7290" said:

> > > > Would be great, can't get me to play Wvw currently with Downstate. It favors too much bad players which are against the No Downstate.

> > >

> > > Wrong, it favours good players because good teamwork, correct fast decision making, etc makes for better outcomes when it comes to stomps, resses, hence why actual good players (when this game still had some good players - TCG, Orange Logo, etc ) made better use of it than even other "pro" teams, let alone WvW players.

> >

> > Downstate favors bad players because it is favors zergs. No Downstate favors good players, as it should be.

>

> If used properly Downstate can help fight against bigger zergs. Place traps and target AoE's on the downed while the zerg tries to rez them. Watch more of the zerg die because of their foolish attempt to try to rez their players instead of letting them slowly die. If you know what you are doing when it comes to downstated players you can whittle away more of a big blob than you can trying to pirate ship bomb them or by trying to pick off their scragglers that are trailing behind.

But without downed state you can just blow people up and be done with it.

> @"Skada.1362" said:

> 30 full ascended fully infused trailblazer condi mirages. /so pro

That would be pretty good