Israel.7056

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> i guess kitten the people who work evening shifts or odd hours right?

They could still play on the proposed OCX/SEA server.

>which by the way in 2004, was 15 million people(Irregular schedules, Swing, evening or night shifts) according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Obviously not all of them play, but thats a fairly large chunk of people in the US this suggested change would screw over if even a small portion of them played this game.

If we assume that something like 350 million people live in the US that leaves 335 million who would fall into the more normal schedule group and if we assume the distribution of players is roughly equivalent (I'm just going along with your supposition) then that means that something like 96 percent of NA players fall within the range of normal NA play times. That's a much larger chunk wouldn't you say?

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> Let me guess - your reset sized zerg has been steamrolling?

>

> Yeah try again a couple of days when objectives are T3 and most likely filled with so many arrowcarts that half the zerg dies before it even gets to a door and people dont even want to start commanding.

>

>

The reset zerg always steamrolls but I've done a wide range of fights already and they've all been way more fun.

Siege is aids though you're right about that.

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> Honestly, a whole lot of the time and effort in civilized societies goes into protecting the minority from the "kitten you" of the majority. This policy explicitly kicks to the curb anyone who works evening shifts, or otherwise doesn't fit into a very narrow definition of when it is "acceptable" to play WvW. It is not a nice policy, or a kind policy, or an accepting one.

>

> I don't think that this will be implemented, because ANet do care about more than your enjoyment, and are not willing to sacrifice others for it. Which is really for the best for WvW overall, honestly, even if it means some servers capture everything overnight, and others don't. Nobody really wins from making WvW harder to play, and driving away players, not even you IMO.

All they have to do is give them their own server and time lock ours. That way the people who nightcap on NA can go play against one another and the rest of us can finally be done with nightcapping forever.

I doubt they will change anything as well because they're probably months into development of alliances and I imagine they'll want to see how that works out before they make any other serious changes. Perhaps alliances will fix nightcapping but I doubt it.

I made a post years ago talking about getting rid of downed state and I've had to wait this long to get to try it out but it's just as awesome as I thought it would be.

No downstate is amazing ANET please consider making this a permanent feature.

It makes the combat much feel more tense and high stakes and it feels great to just blow people up and be done with them.

It also makes outnumbered fights much more feasible which is always good imo.

Seriously please consider making this a permanent change to WvW.

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> you have just said that other player "does not matter at all" only because of hours he's playing at. this is why I asked if you read or believe what you are writing here.

>

> changing the scoring may alleviate the very issue you were claiming ("off-hours minority dictating terms of engagement for prime time majority") while locking the servers out based on arbitrary choice of hours will only alienate big chunk of playerbase - myself included and I actually mostly play in our regions prime time. but if playing was restricted to some arbitrary hours I'd definitelly go look for other game that does not limit availability to content I enjoy.

>

> also "nightcapping" as far as my experience goes is no longer a real issue ever since skirmishes became a thing.

>

> EDIT: I'm EU tho, so dunno how it is like for NA - the only real issue I recall in past weeks is one mexican guild on one of german servers running 20-50man blobs at the time when it starts to be problematic to raise up 15 under single banner between the maps

For the purpose of this discussion he doesn't matter he's an outlier. He's even said as much. It makes no sense to try to structure policy to suit outliers because they represent a small fraction of players by definition. Their concerns shouldn't outweigh the concerns of the majority.

The numbers aren't arbitrary they're based on well established player patterns in game. On NA there are four major timezones and some separate those four into early/late but they are EU/NA/OCX/SEA. EU prime on NA is not exactly the same as EU prime on EU servers so that's a little confusing but there's large overlap on NA servers between EU/NA which is why I said 12pm est instead of 4pm est but I could see an argument for 4pm est. There's also a bit of overlap with late PST NA and OCX but most of the PST NA are logged off by 4am est. The main nightcapping on NA occurs during OCX/SEA because there are fewer of them in total across all servers and they tend to concentrate themselves which means that only certain servers have any serious OCX/SEA coverage while everyone else has almost nothing. This has been the case since launch and it's why servers like JQ and BG have been so historically dominant on NA.

Nightcapping is still very much an issue on NA, skirmishes haven't fixed it at all. All skirmishes have done is make the scores appear closer but the conditions for winning haven't changed in the slightest because the value of nightcapping is not just the points but the strategic advantage it offers. So basically a server with offprime coverage has about 8 hours of almost completely uninterrupted time every single day to take whatever they want and upgrade everything they own. This is a massive advantage as I'm sure you can imagine.

Changing the scoring would help a little but it wouldn't actually fix nightcapping because people could still cap things at night and then upgrade them. So the servers with offprime coverage would still have a huge advantage at the beginning of every single day even if they didn't pick up as many points overnight. The proposed scoring change is just something that should obviously exist anyways but it doesn't solve the issue of nightcapping.

My solution would fix the issue of nightcapping completely.

> @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> 12pm? Who can play at that time? Children and [expletive deleted]? Why would you want to cater to "early afternoon cappers"?

12pm is when the est NA players start to log on.

It's obviously not valid play but it's also very difficult to stop without taking some possibly drastic measures which ANET is unlikely to do.

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

>do you really believe all of this bullcrap you spew in this thread?

I don't think it's "bullcrap." It's a complete solution to the problem, nothing anyone else has suggested completely solves the problem. Changing the scoring does not solve the issue of nightcapping only server locking does. It's a strict measure but I believe it's the right thing to do.

> @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"coglin.1496" said:

> > > No one is ruining your match up good sir other than yourself. You're being dishonest because if you truly cared you would spend less time on the forms and more time in the game off hours preventing those from capping your keeps. I am a NA player on an NA server. So I'm unclear what you were going on about as far as server priorities. Simply because I put employment and family over the priority of working on the schedule that you think I should doesn't mean they should rearrange the game to suit your personal needs.

> >

> > Yes it does because I'm in the majority of NA players who are playing the proper NA schedule and you're not. You are an outlier and thus you don't deserve consideration in this matter. I don't care if you have a family and a job, lots of people have families and jobs. I only care that you take stuff during what is night time for the majority of NA players. You are a night capper and you shouldn't be allowed to do it anymore because it ruins matches for the larger majority of NA players. They should lockout OCX/SEA on NA and then make an OCX/SEA server and then you and everyone who plays when you do can go play there and no one will have to worry about nightcapping anymore. Problem solved completely.

>

> I'm having some trouble locating where ArenaNet defined the "proper NA schedule".

I defined it but it's based on years of playing the game. Everyone knows when the timezones are if they've played the game. All Anet has to do is codify what's already common knowledge to players. The majority of NA players play between 12pm est and 4am est. Anything outside of that is mostly Australians and SEA players. This guy happens to be an outlier but it makes no sense to structure policy around exceptions.

> @"Kaiser.9873" said:

> It's a worldwide game. I used to argue that nightcapping was a terrible abomination, robbing my server of rightful wins. Honestly who cares. They deserve their time in the Sun as much as NA players, and really winning means zip.

It is now but it doesn't have to be. They could change the game. NA players have lived with being irrelevant for so long that many NA players have just learned to not care at all about the score. The ones who do care about the score stack servers with OCX/SEA. Those have been our only two options since launch but they don't have to be.

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> You are neglecting to address the fact that these players DO NOT HAVE their own regional servers. So, the claim that you have some sort of proprietary ownership right to the servers is at the very least in disagreement with ANets position on the subject.

Easy solution, Anet establishes an OCX/SEA server and locks out NA/EU timezones there so no one can night cap them and then no one can night cap us anymore either. Problem solved everyone wins.

> @"Dayra.7405" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > they're mostly not NA players, they're predominantly Australians and Chinese and Koreans etc playing on NA servers and they've been distorting the results of matches since launch.

> > > That's an understatement.

> > > They're DECIDING NA matches.

> > > This isn't a case of minority oppression, It is a case of minority _rule_. Certainly offpeak players should be able to contribute, but not control the majority's experience.

> > >

> >

> > Indeed you're right. I do not see a way to let them contribute without letting them decide the matches though.

>

> That’s trivial you multiply each skirmish result with the number of player-hours that contributed to the result. Voila each player hour has equal contribution.

They'd still be able to reset everything though right?

> @"Gop.8713" said:

> I'm NA and I play off peak due to rl schedule. I'd be fine with Dayra's suggestion that offpeak slots count for less based on relative population, but Israel's suggestion that I should only be allowed to play on servers on the other side of the world seems bizarre . . .

You could play on any server you wanted to you just wouldn't be able to go into WvW on NA servers after a certain time and then flip stuff while the rest of NA was asleep anymore.

> @"LetoII.3782" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > they're mostly not NA players, they're predominantly Australians and Chinese and Koreans etc playing on NA servers and they've been distorting the results of matches since launch.

> That's an understatement.

> They're DECIDING NA matches.

> This isn't a case of minority oppression, It is a case of minority _rule_. Certainly offpeak players should be able to contribute, but not control the majority's experience.

>

Indeed you're right. I do not see a way to let them contribute without letting them decide the matches though.

> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> > > Your "fix" is flawed, population imbalance begin as early as PST. In other words, night capping begin as early as PST which is NA timezone. Base on the logic to stop night capping, PST should too be barred.

> >

> > Perhaps. They're mostly west coast NA players though.

>

> Which then lead to contradicting your argument of NA region game if you barred PST region.

Correct that's why I wouldn't want to bar PST. Even if there are population differences during PST they're still NA timezone players. My first priority would be to lock the servers during OCX/SEA because they're mostly not NA players, they're predominantly Australians and Chinese and Koreans etc playing on NA servers and they've been distorting the results of matches since launch.

> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> Your "fix" is flawed, population imbalance begin as early as PST. In other words, night capping begin as early as PST which is NA timezone. Base on the logic to stop night capping, PST should too be barred.

Perhaps. They're mostly west coast NA players though.

> @"Ok I Did It.2854" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Shura.4280" said:

> > > lol @nightcapping. there's no way to stop this. dont forget people live in different time zones accross the world and play in the same server. while you sleep, for other people its a day time, so they play as they wish. nightcapping needs to go, lol, get over urself

> >

> > It's a simple problem to fix actually.

>

> Yes but from what I can see your "fix" is to limit people who don't play in your timezone to the game they also paid for, or close the WvW down while you cannot play during the what you call "off peak hours" both are completely insane, its an MMO that is played across the world, I don't see many Aussie players on here complaining saying the NA are night capping while we are at work its not fair, close NA down while we are at work,

>

> People need to get a grip, you log on and play in your timezone, and let others do the same, there is no reward linked to actually winning a matchup other than bragging rights, some people that play this game seriously have tunnel vision, is it any wonder Anet tries to ignore WvW.

It's not insane, it's a completely reasonable and frankly obvious solution to a rather simple problem.

Aussies don't say anything because if they play it through in their minds they'll realize that they're playing on NA servers not OCX servers and once they make that argument that NA players could easily say what I'm saying in response and make a much stronger argument for locking down the OCX timezone. So it's better for them to stay quiet and just take what they can get.

I'm sure it bothers them as much as it bothers us but they're not in a good position to try to make the argument. We are. These are NA servers we shouldn't have to deal with this anymore. Give OCX and SEA their own servers, lock out our timezones on their servers and their timezones on ours so they can stop ruining our matches and we can't go over there and ruin theirs.

I'm not against the idea but this change by itself would not prevent people from gaming the system so to speak.

> @"atheria.2837" said:

> No.

>

> Many of us like the Desert BL.

>

> A lot.

Ok why do you like it?

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> I bet you never tried to flip T3 nothern tower on alpine in prime time did ya?

Ofcourse I have. What of it?

> if enemy blobs whole map worth of players into single big blob, yes I will hope they'll not get fast enought to our smaller force before we get the capture. being squashed in 20vs50 ain't fun.

You probably just need another 10-15 people if you're running closed or you can run open and try to pick up pugs. 20v50 is pretty tough 30v50 is entirely doable especially if it's 50 pugs but even if it's a 50 man guild group if you're better than them.

> but then we had recently enemy blob opening necor, wiping out all our forces in area and then move to attack the keep.... without capping the tower itself. no wonder their numerical advantage in field was not translating into points... (as they were loosing)

Maybe they just wanted to get kills.

> your definition of "interesting fight" differs from mine. you seem to only enjoy zerg vs zerg clashes, while I enjoy the bigger strategical conflict above it. stomping enemy blob is as fun to me as outplaying said blob to get objectives out of their control without encountering their full force at once at any point

I prefer fighting people to trying to sneak around them. I just don't find any satisfaction in outrotating people and their objectives are vastly less important to me than trying to beat them in a fight as many times as I can because that's the real high in this game for me if you know what I mean. I want to fight the enemy's full force if I can and if I don't think I have enough people for that I'm not going to try to go around them and take their objectives that's disgusting. Don't you see how shameful and dishonorable that is?

It sounds to me like you prefer going around other players if given the choice just based on what you've said so far. Maybe that's not how you actually play but it's certainly the way you've presented yourself in this thread.

> the "Defensive" tone you may sense is actually iritation of people crying out to remove everything that has any more deep than boring none. You can dislike the borderland layout, just don't cry for removal of it, because there are people whom enjoy it more.

But it seems clear to me from the countless discussions I've read and participated in about this map that the main reason that some people enjoy it is because it's much easier to farm PPT there and avoid fights and I really don't think that's a good reason to keep the map.

The goal in my mind should be to create maps that really encourage fighting and make it really hard for the more evasive minded players to get around other players so that they have to fight. I think what we need is another smaller faster map like EBG so we basically have two ebg's and two alpines. Alpines are slower but it's still pretty hard to sneak around another group for too long which is how it should be.

> PS. for PPT farm it's actually weak map due to distances between objectives - so that attempt was missed on your behalf

Nonsense it's the best map for PPT farming because most people don't play it which makes it an easy farm for even 20 people.

> you claimed that since it is impossible to "scout properly" such a large area no one will bother with it, and I stated that it is crucial to do it properly instead. which is not as crucial to the success on any other borderland or even eternal.

I did not say it was impossible I said no one can be bothered to scout it because it's so big and secondarily because the kinds of groups that one finds playing DBL are precisely the sort that are trying to take stuff without a fight which means that even if the scout does their job they're not going to get any kills out of it when the main force shows up. You even said earlier that "Towers in DBL can be used as a fallback/regroup points when you encounter superior enemy forces." This is how havocs play; they set up somewhere and when someone shows up to defend they peel out and wait for the main force to leave map and then try again rinse repeat.

> actually single thief or two on comms with commander can get a job done just as well. or some randoms and utilising of that amazing tool called "map chat"

Good luck finding anyone actually willing to do that job. Imagine getting on a thief just to run around empty DBL just to scout for havocs. The ultimate Border Mom job.

> somehow with our guild on the raid it takes full blobs to actually flip anything of importance from our hands, but who cares about such details as reality of guilds that run DBL nearly exclusively right?

Anyone can stall out large groups with siege. It's not hard to do it's just shameful so only certain players will do it.

> which happens everywhere where keep lord is present? I have seen hills lord having impact on a blob fight on few times, even seen zergs blapped by SM lord while being distracted by enemies nearby.

True but the DBL ones are particularly annoying and hard to deal with compared to the Alpine keep lords or even SMC lord.

> as for air keep and focusing - since we had a fair deal of fights at lord room there here are few tips: first of all knowing when enemy is coming in and from which side is very handy information, secondly - not allowing enemy blob to get into the lord room properly is even handier. But that's engagement management we shouldn't require people to do this when they want some zerg clashes right?

What difference does it make when the enemy is coming or where they're coming from as long as they actually show up on time? You implied earlier that you can't win a tower fight on alpines but somehow you can stonewall an enemy blob at air keep lord's room while still fighting the lord? This doesn't add up.

> PS. out of every fight in air keep at lord room in very few of them keep lord had any noticeable impact.... maybe once or twice he did. the onyl time I ever noticed fire keep lord doing anything other than dying there were only like 5 of use in there anyway.

Well this is all anecdotal but my experience has been vastly different to say the least.

> @"Shura.4280" said:

> lol @nightcapping. there's no way to stop this. dont forget people live in different time zones accross the world and play in the same server. while you sleep, for other people its a day time, so they play as they wish. nightcapping needs to go, lol, get over urself

It's a simple problem to fix actually.

I agree that GoB should be removed from WvW. I absolutely hate PvErs who come into WvW just to try to farm a reward track and they hate having to do it. No one wins.

> @"azizul.8469" said:

> what nightcapping ? there is no such thing. when you think it is night, it is bright daylight for me here....

But if we peg the region to NA which is where the servers are supposed to be located then we can get a clear anchor for what we call "NA prime." This time period is when most of the actual North American players are playing and it's between about 12pm est and maybe 4am est at the latest for the west coast NA players. So if your usual playtime doesn't fall within that range you're considered an offhours player on NA servers and anything you take in that period of time is considered "nightcapping." On EU servers it's anyone who plays outside of EU prime which is somewhere around 2pm est and 6-7pm est for me. We could constrain the range even further for NA because 12pm falls within what is usually referred to as EU timezone on NA servers but for the sake of argument let's just say that there's about an eight hour gap which is mostly covered by Australians and Asians that constitutes the "offhours" or "nightcapping" timezones. It is precisely this 8 hr "nightcapping" gap which has historically been the prime determinant in the actual outcome of matches even after the addition of skirmishes to the game.

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > > for arguments of the other guy: it's size is why it's actually good, keep lords are more interesting than just "1 stream dummies" wait actually no, only air keep one is interesting, fire keep is same deal as other borders pretty much, and I see no issues with colour pallete but I guess that's something someone will always complain about.

> >

> > The size of the map is why I've probably spent a total of 10 hours on it since the map's release. It takes too long to get places it takes too long to find people it takes too long to run anywhere from spawn. I can jump into EBG and run for 20-30s in any direction and find people to fight so I've probably got 6k+ hours on EBG alone. Super fast maps are the way to go because you can quickly log in fight people for a few hours and log off ezpz.

>

> You spending only 10 hours on a map may be reason why you seem to be so misinformed on how it actually works.

> Also one big bonus of big map compared to the smaller ones - when you actually play to win those skirmishes, is the fact that place where you attack actually matters because - ya know - enemy blob will take time to get to you. sure sure you only want "interesting fights" and don't care about greater scale of the conflict so here's my advice - stick to your boring borders and EB, and leave people enjoying Desert have their fun...

>

> > I can see why DBL is the premier map for ppt havoc squads though; the map is huge no one can be bothered to try to scout the whole thing and no one can be bothered to to cross the map to find 10 people flipping towers even if someone does try to scout.

>

> actually it is quite oposite - since the map is big it REQUIRES proper scouting so you don't waste time chasing your 20-player squad for all the map to "depend" a keep from... single guy tagging vets

>

> > The three keep lords on DBL are nothing like any of the lords found in any of the vanilla maps. They're like little raid bosses.

>

> lol, frankly you either have no idea how keep lords in DBL are like or never tried to raid because anyone seriously raiding would laught his behind off hearing someone claiming these guys gets anywhere close.

>

> fire keep lord differs from any vanilla keep lord only by a factor of sometimes throwing AoE CCs that are telegraphed so hard my grandma would have no issue with them, and basically in most encounters he's spammed to death sam way as any other vanilla keep lord

>

> air keep lord has only that gimmick that he likes to jump between spots and drop CC rings trapping unsuspecting players inside it.

>

> the only difference between fighting air keep lord and any vanilla lord is that usually you want whole group take a spot AND NOT MOVE so guy stays in place

>

> also bonus points - if your team holds shrines you gain access to a very handy mobility tool aroudn the map meaning that you can move your squad around extremely fast.

> Also one big bonus of big map compared to the smaller ones - when you actually play to win those skirmishes, is the fact that place where you attack actually matters because - ya know - enemy blob will take time to get to you. sure sure you only want "interesting fights" and don't care about greater scale of the conflict so here's my advice - stick to your boring borders and EB, and leave people enjoying Desert have their fun...

Oh boy "play to win those skirmishes" and "greater scale of the conflict" we're going inside the mind of a DBL ppter I'm ready let's go team.

First question: You can't "play to win those skirmishes" and effect the "greater scale of the conflict" on anything other than DBL? I could've sworn alpines and EBG have objectives too.

Second question: When you say "enemy blob will take time to get to you" you make it sound like that's a good thing. Don't you want them to get to you so you can fight them? I see people say stuff like this in game too and it's almost as if they are hoping no one shows up to defend at all.

Third question: When you say I should stick to my "interesting fights" and "leave people enjoying desert to have their fun" do you mean to say that you're not looking for interesting fights? Why not try fighting people? You never know you might find that you like it.

I get that you probably feel like I'm trying to take away your PPT farm which is why your tone seems to me to be so defensive but I assure you people were PPTing well before DBL so you'll still be able to take stuff if it gets taken away you might just have to fight a bit more to be able to do it. Would that really be so bad?

> actually it is quite oposite - since the map is big it REQUIRES proper scouting so you don't waste time chasing your 20-player squad for all the map to "depend" a keep from... single guy tagging vets

Fourth question: Are you aware that you said the reality was the opposite of what I said but then reiterated my point just using different words?

"Proper scouting" on that map means someone in almost every objective all day because the map is so large it's not enough to have two or three people covering multiple objectives like you can on Alpines or EBG. EBG is particularly nice because one guy in the keeps can pretty much scout all your towers so that means less people who have to sit around watching stuff, more people who can come fight. Almost no one can be bothered to "properly" scout DBL which is why it's the premier ppt havocs bl. PPT havocs can flip stuff all day with a significantly reduced chance of a response compared to Alpines or EBG or even being scouted at all because the map is too big no one wants to have to run that far to maybe get a fight (from a ppt havoc group who will probably high tail it into a nearby tower or keep or waypoint out when they see people coming) when they can just play the other bls and easily get more fights.

> lol, frankly you either have no idea how keep lords in DBL are like or never tried to raid because anyone seriously raiding would laught his behind off hearing someone claiming these guys gets anywhere close.

You got me dude i don't do much PvE, I mostly just fight people.

I do know from my unpleasant experiences on the map that the side keep bosses on DBL are strong enough to heavily influence the outcome of fights because I've been on the giving and receiving end of getting caught in the air keep ring during a fight. You might not know this but when you're fighting players in the air keep you can't just focus on the air keep boss circles you have to also pay attention to the enemy players too and standing in one spot to avoid the air keep circle isn't usually the best way to win the actual fight. It's ok you didn't know I understand.

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> for arguments of the other guy: it's size is why it's actually good, keep lords are more interesting than just "1 stream dummies" wait actually no, only air keep one is interesting, fire keep is same deal as other borders pretty much, and I see no issues with colour pallete but I guess that's something someone will always complain about.

The size of the map is why I've probably spent a total of 10 hours on it since the map's release. It takes too long to get places it takes too long to find people it takes too long to run anywhere from spawn. I can jump into EBG and run for 20-30s in any direction and find people to fight so I've probably got 6k+ hours on EBG alone. Super fast maps are the way to go because you can quickly log in fight people for a few hours and log off ezpz.

I can see why DBL is the premier map for ppt havoc squads though; the map is huge no one can be bothered to try to scout the whole thing and no one can be bothered to to cross the map to find 10 people flipping towers even if someone does try to scout.

The three keep lords on DBL are nothing like any of the lords found in any of the vanilla maps. They're like little raid bosses.

The color palette issue is perhaps just an individual thing but I find the sand to be visually disorienting and I get a pounding headache every time I go there.