Israel.7056

Can I use the bunny to hop over walls? If so then I'm all for it.

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> ppl got to give it a try. whether you win, stay or drop down, in a tier. it's sad to see people give up before trying. sure, we'll get killed in open field get out blobbed, but if we're not here to dish out some pain, why play wvw? it's like most ppl are after easy fights. >3<

>

> 2f3s :P hhehehe

That's the spirit!

Taking one for the team NSP god bless you all.

In this tedious exercise the math IS the proof.

> @"Chaba.5410" said:

> Much of the damage in WvW comes from AoE and PBAoE skills which ignore the direction toons are facing/weapon arcs.

The thing that really tickles me is that he says the advantage of clicking and keyboard turning is that he can outmaneuver people in melee range but then all his videos are of him bristlebacking people while kiting in staff or sitting at max range throwing water fields or banners while other people engage in melee. Just LOL.

> @"Chaba.5410" said:

> > @"Tinnel.4369" said:

> > I was on YB, asked Fastcar in Discord why clicking was so advantageous, was told he'd explained it too many times wasn't going to again. "It just is."

>

> Tinnel, here is a copy-paste from one of those many times it was explained:

>

> "As I have stated I dont give tacticts to [censored] and the enemy..that said I will give you a hint : "Clicking" meaning KB turning and mouse to target and click on skill buttons lets u do something NOT possible as a mouser/hotkeyer...this thing causes "off axis hits" in short u take in average 33% less hits of all types...think passive dodge 1/3 of the time-ish"

>

> "Off axis hits : ( ihave played 21 MMos,so far it works on ALL of them) in short : when ( example) 2 melees face each others to fight..swinging away...weapons have an arc they hit in..if u rotate too far u get "off axis" and miss..I.E. wack away at a guy..turn 90 DEG..do u still hit? NO..u are "off axis" when u learn a legal trick that VERY few know.."clicking" lets u MAKE the other guy "off axit" hit very often"

>

> Note: racially insensitive comment censored.

LOL.

> @"X T D.6458" said:

> Personally, I liked the old days of hammer trains.

Well it seems like we basically get two choices: melee trains or pirate ship. Either the frontline players can safely and comfortably push or they can't.

I actually think it's still very much a melee train meta if you've got enough firebrands because they basically negate scourges.

If you went back to core spec it'd just be the old gwen meta with an even heavier emphasis on guardian and warrior since they've received the most work on their core lines.

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > > The problem is, to some people the scoring system is preventing them from having fun. There are a lot of people who are focused on numbers so long as numbers are present.

> > > >

> > > > Then they can just ignore the numbers.

> > >

> > > If only human nature worked that way. Unfortunately it doesn't. If you put a top tier of gear in a game, people will want it whether they need it or not, even if they hate the method of getting it. If you're not doing fractals, raids or WvW, you don't need ascended armor. That doesn't stop people from feeling like they need ascended armor, even though they don't. They can't ignore those numbers, because the numbers are there. Maybe you can. A fair percentage of people can't. I run into this all the time. Casual players who insist they need BIS gear, even though they never intend to do any content that requires it.

> >

> > Well then the issue isn't with the game but with the players themselves and their apparent lack of self control. If there are players who genuinely struggle to ignore the score then that's something they need to work on in themselves not something the game can or should attempt to fix. I don't see why the devs should remove features in an effort to cater to the mental fragility of this hypothetical obsessive compulsive subsection of their playerbase.

>

> Business doesn't work like that nor should it. If there is something that bothers a large percentage of people, whether it's their own limitations or not, you can't as a business ignore it. Not if you want to stay in business.

>

> It's like saying people who insist on soloing a multiplayer game are making a decision. But there are enough people soloing multiplayer games that no developer can afford to ignore them, nor do they. It's the same with this. Sure everyone should be able to do what needs to be done to enjoy the game. But if they can't, that's not their problem....it's Anet's problem.

I suppose from a purely pragmatic perspective that makes sense in principle assuming one is willing to accept the logical implications of such a principle.

But even thinking along those lines I don't take it as a given that a large enough percentage of players are turned off by the presence of a scoring system to warrant its deletion in order to do better business. I think they're most likely a loud minority with mental health issues.

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > Maybe they could make the first 10k ranks easier to grind but then add in another 10k ranks that keep the original leveling model and then add all sorts of new skins for people who are able to climb the second ladder. That way the beginners can get their triumphant gear and the veterans still have some sort of prestige item to hold over others.

>

> Sure... if they make one of the other gifts required for legendary armor to require proportionally as much effort/dedication in the new system as the old.

Maybe they could add an exclusive set of WvW legendary armor that you can only begin to unlock at rank 5-6k. That way you can still get your legendary armor done at lower ranks with the triumphant set but still have something to work towards if you're a veteran.

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > The problem is, to some people the scoring system is preventing them from having fun. There are a lot of people who are focused on numbers so long as numbers are present.

> >

> > Then they can just ignore the numbers.

>

> If only human nature worked that way. Unfortunately it doesn't. If you put a top tier of gear in a game, people will want it whether they need it or not, even if they hate the method of getting it. If you're not doing fractals, raids or WvW, you don't need ascended armor. That doesn't stop people from feeling like they need ascended armor, even though they don't. They can't ignore those numbers, because the numbers are there. Maybe you can. A fair percentage of people can't. I run into this all the time. Casual players who insist they need BIS gear, even though they never intend to do any content that requires it.

Well then the issue isn't with the game but with the players themselves and their apparent lack of self control. If there are players who genuinely struggle to ignore the score then that's something they need to work on in themselves not something the game can or should attempt to fix. I don't see why the devs should remove features in an effort to cater to the mental fragility of this hypothetical obsessive compulsive subsection of their playerbase.

> @"Legendary Defender.5631" said:

> In the past 4 yrs anet has dumbed down the game so much players no longer have to think about or even know what they are doing in order to win.

Yes they do. But the old tank up and run them over strategy still works so I dunno what the problem is.

Maybe they could make the first 10k ranks easier to grind but then add in another 10k ranks that keep the original leveling model and then add all sorts of new skins for people who are able to climb the second ladder. That way the beginners can get their triumphant gear and the veterans still have some sort of prestige item to hold over others.

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> The problem is, to some people the scoring system is preventing them from having fun. There are a lot of people who are focused on numbers so long as numbers are present.

Then they can just ignore the numbers.

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > How's that working for DAOC?

> > >

> > > It worked for DAOC for a long long long time. Keep in mind that that game is 17 years old, not five years old. Let's see how well this game is doing in another twelve years. DAOC made enough of an impression on devs to inspire WvW, so it must have had some impact on the MMO genre.

> >

> > That's great that it worked at one point in time.

>

> Don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but it could work now as well. There are a lot of things this game is doing that other MMOs aren't doing and against all conventional logic those things work, at least for a percentage of people (which is all anything really works for). I can't think of many MMOs that don't raise the level cap or introduce new tiers of gear with each expansion but that's what this game does. Just because no one else is doing something doesn't mean it won't work. Guild Wars 2 is proof of that.

That's true but there's no reason to think getting rid of the scoring would change anything for the better. If you want to play just for "fun and pride" you can already do that. The scoring system isn't preventing anyone from doing that so why talk about getting rid of the score? Makes no sense.

> @"Vayne.8563" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > How's that working for DAOC?

>

> It worked for DAOC for a long long long time. Keep in mind that that game is 17 years old, not five years old. Let's see how well this game is doing in another twelve years. DAOC made enough of an impression on devs to inspire WvW, so it must have had some impact on the MMO genre.

That's great that it worked at one point in time.

How's that working for DAOC?

> @"Tinnel.4369" said:

> I was on YB, asked Fastcar in Discord why clicking was so advantageous, was told he'd explained it too many times wasn't going to again. "It just is."

Because you don't have to buy a gaming mouse duh.

I just want more tickets.

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > > > Score, 2018.... 24/7 hour game mode....

> > > > >

> > > > > Basically, as much as we'd love to WvW, we can't take it as a 2nd job which is basically required. As for the spy imbalance; I think the issue is it happening in the first place. That has zero place in game discussion.

> > > >

> > > > Can't honestly expect people not to spy though.

> > >

> > > Sure. But that is a issue involving cheating and not imbalance.

> >

> > Cheating of the sort that can't or won't likely be policed which makes it a de facto part of the meta and therefore a relevant part of any WvW discussion imo.

>

> Would BG be losing if everyone were able to spy equally? I doubt it. Would this be an issue if there were no server caps, and everyone could do the same? It'd just cancel out.

Those are interesting questions but I lack the data to do anything other than hazard a guess. I suppose one scenario would be that all the spying in effect cancels itself out. Another could be that SoS turns out to be pretty good at spying relative to other servers I really don't know enough to say either way. All I'm saying is that spying is a part of the game whether it's cheating or not.

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > Score, 2018.... 24/7 hour game mode....

> > >

> > > Basically, as much as we'd love to WvW, we can't take it as a 2nd job which is basically required. As for the spy imbalance; I think the issue is it happening in the first place. That has zero place in game discussion.

> >

> > Can't honestly expect people not to spy though.

>

> Sure. But that is a issue involving cheating and not imbalance.

Cheating of the sort that can't or won't likely be policed which makes it a de facto part of the meta and therefore a relevant part of any WvW discussion imo.

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> Score, 2018.... 24/7 hour game mode....

>

> Basically, as much as we'd love to WvW, we can't take it as a 2nd job which is basically required. As for the spy imbalance; I think the issue is it happening in the first place. That has zero place in game discussion.

Can't honestly expect people not to spy though.

> @"MadBomber.3719" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Floz.8904" said:

> > > Firstly, the attitude that has been created from the servers who try not to win is ridiculous. Playing a game not to win is beyond me.

> >

> > How you still think you're "playing to win" after months of getting roflstomped is beyond me. The only thing you people have accomplished is becoming BG's most enthusiastic free range chicken farm

> yea im not sure what they are trying to win. not winning in PPT and not winning in KDR. maybe a participation trophy?

I think they think that "playing to win" means badly copying what the other team does to win.

> @"Floz.8904" said:

> Firstly, the attitude that has been created from the servers who try not to win is ridiculous. Playing a game not to win is beyond me.

How you still think you're "playing to win" after months of getting roflstomped is beyond me. The only thing you people have accomplished is becoming BG's most enthusiastic free range chicken farm.

I mean the obvious thing in my mind is to start with Sand Savant. Fundamentally the issue with scourge is that it covers too much ground with too little effort. The second thing would be to consider changing the "scourge counts as a shade" thing. A lot of the big pressure comes from a combination of massively overlapping savants and the double tick of the shade and the scourge.