Eddbopkins.2630
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Posts posted by Eddbopkins.2630
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Its only a failure when its ignored...even during esl there wasnt this much attention to balance, skill splitting, and overall care that pvp is getting today.
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Warrior does have a lot in defense compaired to other classes for sure....way more then most classes with its hp and armor being high af just to start with.
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> @"babazhook.6805" said:
> > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:
> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:
> > > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:
> > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:
> > > > > > @"ilmi.5369" said:
> > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:
> > > > > > > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with:
> > > > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it
> > > > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet)
> > > > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack
> > > > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far:
> > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video)
> > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration)
> > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build)
> > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The whole conversation has got to a point which is totally pointless and repetitive but I will bite a last time before I'm out of here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You actually don't prove anything of your claims - you are quoting me but you don't actually respond to what I say. Instead you are writing your own opinion again and again. But let's have a closer look if you find it satisfying.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:
> > > > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with:
> > > > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it
> > > > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet)
> > > > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack
> > > > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row
> > > > > > Yes that's among the things we agree on. furthermore I could list some more obvious things, such as that p/p thieves are less mobile than e.g. a d/p thief (assuming that he does not spec into daredevil which would give him the same amount of dodges and agility).
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far:
> > > > > > No, this is not what we are not agreeing with. This is your list of things that, for some reason, you find important enough to discuss and I will comment on it a last time:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video)
> > > > > > What is that 10 min video supposed to support? You can hardly see it as evidence of how all P/P out there are playing. On the contrary, it shows a dude that frequently uses stealth as a battle tactic and kills a bunch of people that continuously are making wrong combat decisions. While doing this, he permanently is investing is initiative not only in unloads but on porting across the map on shortbow or even stealthing with smoke field and cluster bomb. I guess you bring it as an example of skillful p/p play but you fail to see that he permanently does things you initially called out as untypical or unskilled behavior. It seems as if you are too busy busy with calling me wrong on whatever you think I'm saying, that you are adapting your arguments along the way.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Besides, this thief is able to burst down his enemies without actually HAVING to surprise them, which does not mean that any other p/p thief would not facilitate his access to stealth for an ambush attack. For either a shorter duration without sacrificing any burst potential or for a longer duration by investing some more initiative. Either way, a p/p thief is able to attack on surprise and would facilitate this advantage if he can. Just browse the many other troll videos of people camping spawn on deadeye.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration)
> > > > > > Group stealth is beneficial for the whole team and individual stealth is beneficial for yourself and one of the core principals of thief in a defensive and offensive matter. Not dying to enemy burst because you are not focused shure also is in the interest of your team as it helps to fulfill your role as a thief. I guess we can agree on that? While it of course comes with side effects (e.g. capture point prevention, distraction from team) those play at best a very very little role on the priority list of a thief. We are talking about a class that obviously uses stealth in order to NOT be focused and in order to operate unseen. You just posted a video of a thief who permanently uses stealth in order to escape or to reposition. You could get the feeling that we are discussing the role of a warrior or ranger.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build)
> > > > > > No, it is not difficult, but it is a valid counter measure. And it is even easier to come stealthed myself and open the fight in my favor. Or to bomb the area with nuclear aoe damage where you just seen him disappearing . Or to be on a class like my warrior, firing up one of my many stun breaks when being hit by the first unload and then get shield block up, hoping that he is stupid enough to keep on unloading. But all that does not negate that it's not always in your hands to interrupt or counter him if he is getting you on surprise. When he already drained a significant part of your life pool before you can even target him and then brings you down in less than 2 seconds with another unload while you are busy with actually tracking him. While he is still on range. ready to show you more of his love with little to no effort. I mean just the fact that he can kill himself quite easily by reflect shows that unload does outperform in terms of damage and its frequency. THIS is where we disagree.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to)
> > > > > > The video you just posted, shows exactly that. A thief who is moving around on the map, spending initiative on a lot of skill on his tool bar situational and still is able to unload when initiative is available.
> > > > > > Also, I don't see what the comparison to d/p is good for. Does a d/p thief need no initiative to first get into stealth (or to maintain stealth for previously mentioned extreme up time of 10s) in order to actually do a backstab? And then? He as swell has to maintain initiative costs and landing a high amount of burst does not only require preparation and is more difficult to apply, it is also not es repeatable in the same time frame as unload spam is. If you just want to say that as a package in the whole d/p is superior, I agree. But what does that matter?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong.
> > > > > > I explained myself for the greater good of an understanding but I'm happy to agree that we disagree and wont further pay attention to that discussion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Heh, no man. You keep accusing me of misquoting you and I'm not.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rather I'm having a hard time keeping track of the long paragraphs and in trying to get a concise picture of why specifically you think unload needs to be changed, and I still haven't figured it out because you keep arguing about stuff that as far as I can tell either isn't true or doesn't matter, one or the other. And I'm still not seeing what your issue is with this build.
> > > > >
> > > > > So let's just start there then, the title of the thread is that pistol pistol thief is too strong. Tell me why you agree.
> > > >
> > > > 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull.
> > > >
> > > > Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight.
> > >
> > > There isn't a class in this game that can't do 15k damage in one second. Not a single class lacks that capability. NOT ONE.
> > >
> > > And thief has to give up literally everything to do it - the dp mobility, the evades, even the stealth (which I stand by my decision is useless but I digress), and general ability to win games against anyone who knows how to push the buttons on their keyboard.
> > >
> > > Why is thief doing 15k on a glass build, which is glassier than any other build, OP and all those other 15k attacks are fine?
> >
> > Those other classes dont do it by litterally pressing 1 button as fast as possible
> > Id like to see some kind of rotaion to that build is all
>
> Why do you NEED that rotation and HOW will it be implemented? People like to toss out suggestions but never adequately explain why the suggestion necessary and never consider the ramifications of the alternatives.
>
> Thief can spam skills. That is a given and that was the intent of their design from the get go. They have an INI pool that allows the same skill usage several times in a row with the downside that this would shut down all other skills if INI expended outside the AA. That is not going to change unless the entire class redone and redoing the entire class just to make it more like the other classes will just result in another class that plays just like those other classes all for the sake of "skill rotation" . Virtually every other class has skill rotation inherent. I do not see why more of the same needed.
>
> Given they can spam skills (and no AMMO is not a solution here, it one of the worst sugestions I have heard as INI is already AMMO) in order to "force" them to use a skill other than unload for whatever reason a person might think required, those other skills have to allow better utility , damage , or defenses in a p/p build. The only way to really do that is through the AA , or 2 , 4 or 5.
>
> 4 and 5 have ALREADY been nerfed because they were seen as offering to much in other builds and in particular d/p. Boosting these to force p/p thief to use them more will boost d/p and s/p. AA getting more damage is what they attempted to do with d/x and s/x both leading to further nerfs. The flimsy nature of thief means they have to put out damage quickly and in spikes simply because they can not absorb as much damage as other classes. If the damage to shift to the AA then it has to be a significant boost to the same otherwise there little point to it. Added to that this would not change the usage of AA over Unload much at all. Unload thief that sticks to pistol already uses plenty of AA attacks because when they low on INI they have no other attacks.
>
> P/P thief is NOT OP and any making that suggestion has not been able to support it with the facts. It has way too many things in the way of counters and just as P/p thief focuses on the unload, classes fighting against the same need only focus on the unload which all manner of skills they have available can neutralize. So again , in lowering the damage potential of UNLOAD for the sake of "rotation of skills" boosts must be made to the other skills. When d/p or p/d get these boosts we will see the whining start anew.
>
>
I have given out suggestions in earlier post in this thread..at the moment i am to busy to search threw this 6 page thread for my post to qoute to you at this moment...after work in a few hours ill link or copy it here..
Heres my suggestion since you think i didnt put one but i did3-4 pages back....i understand that no ones going to read all of this thread. alot of you guys and maybe gals have alloott to say about this topic which is a very good thing...i love it.
Some time later...After work....Its a great starter or finisher, like if they had a mechanic that if thf chained two or 3 skills togeather and they successfully hit there 3rd or 4th attack will be incredibly strong. giving them a damage rotation instead of spamming backstab into heartskeaker 3x over. But as it is right now it just spammed and it lowers the quality of the fight in a bad way
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> @"Legatus.3608" said:
> > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:
> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:
> > > > @"ilmi.5369" said:
> > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:
> > > > > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with:
> > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it
> > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet)
> > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack
> > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far:
> > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video)
> > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration)
> > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build)
> > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to)
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong.
> > > >
> > > > The whole conversation has got to a point which is totally pointless and repetitive but I will bite a last time before I'm out of here.
> > > >
> > > > You actually don't prove anything of your claims - you are quoting me but you don't actually respond to what I say. Instead you are writing your own opinion again and again. But let's have a closer look if you find it satisfying.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:
> > > > > Let's go back to what we agree with:
> > > > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it
> > > > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet)
> > > > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack
> > > > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row
> > > > Yes that's among the things we agree on. furthermore I could list some more obvious things, such as that p/p thieves are less mobile than e.g. a d/p thief (assuming that he does not spec into daredevil which would give him the same amount of dodges and agility).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Here's what we do not agree with so far:
> > > > No, this is not what we are not agreeing with. This is your list of things that, for some reason, you find important enough to discuss and I will comment on it a last time:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video)
> > > > What is that 10 min video supposed to support? You can hardly see it as evidence of how all P/P out there are playing. On the contrary, it shows a dude that frequently uses stealth as a battle tactic and kills a bunch of people that continuously are making wrong combat decisions. While doing this, he permanently is investing is initiative not only in unloads but on porting across the map on shortbow or even stealthing with smoke field and cluster bomb. I guess you bring it as an example of skillful p/p play but you fail to see that he permanently does things you initially called out as untypical or unskilled behavior. It seems as if you are too busy busy with calling me wrong on whatever you think I'm saying, that you are adapting your arguments along the way.
> > > >
> > > > Besides, this thief is able to burst down his enemies without actually HAVING to surprise them, which does not mean that any other p/p thief would not facilitate his access to stealth for an ambush attack. For either a shorter duration without sacrificing any burst potential or for a longer duration by investing some more initiative. Either way, a p/p thief is able to attack on surprise and would facilitate this advantage if he can. Just browse the many other troll videos of people camping spawn on deadeye.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration)
> > > > Group stealth is beneficial for the whole team and individual stealth is beneficial for yourself and one of the core principals of thief in a defensive and offensive matter. Not dying to enemy burst because you are not focused shure also is in the interest of your team as it helps to fulfill your role as a thief. I guess we can agree on that? While it of course comes with side effects (e.g. capture point prevention, distraction from team) those play at best a very very little role on the priority list of a thief. We are talking about a class that obviously uses stealth in order to NOT be focused and in order to operate unseen. You just posted a video of a thief who permanently uses stealth in order to escape or to reposition. You could get the feeling that we are discussing the role of a warrior or ranger.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build)
> > > > No, it is not difficult, but it is a valid counter measure. And it is even easier to come stealthed myself and open the fight in my favor. Or to bomb the area with nuclear aoe damage where you just seen him disappearing . Or to be on a class like my warrior, firing up one of my many stun breaks when being hit by the first unload and then get shield block up, hoping that he is stupid enough to keep on unloading. But all that does not negate that it's not always in your hands to interrupt or counter him if he is getting you on surprise. When he already drained a significant part of your life pool before you can even target him and then brings you down in less than 2 seconds with another unload while you are busy with actually tracking him. While he is still on range. ready to show you more of his love with little to no effort. I mean just the fact that he can kill himself quite easily by reflect shows that unload does outperform in terms of damage and its frequency. THIS is where we disagree.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to)
> > > > The video you just posted, shows exactly that. A thief who is moving around on the map, spending initiative on a lot of skill on his tool bar situational and still is able to unload when initiative is available.
> > > > Also, I don't see what the comparison to d/p is good for. Does a d/p thief need no initiative to first get into stealth (or to maintain stealth for previously mentioned extreme up time of 10s) in order to actually do a backstab? And then? He as swell has to maintain initiative costs and landing a high amount of burst does not only require preparation and is more difficult to apply, it is also not es repeatable in the same time frame as unload spam is. If you just want to say that as a package in the whole d/p is superior, I agree. But what does that matter?
> > > >
> > > > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong.
> > > > I explained myself for the greater good of an understanding but I'm happy to agree that we disagree and wont further pay attention to that discussion.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Heh, no man. You keep accusing me of misquoting you and I'm not.
> > >
> > > Rather I'm having a hard time keeping track of the long paragraphs and in trying to get a concise picture of why specifically you think unload needs to be changed, and I still haven't figured it out because you keep arguing about stuff that as far as I can tell either isn't true or doesn't matter, one or the other. And I'm still not seeing what your issue is with this build.
> > >
> > > So let's just start there then, the title of the thread is that pistol pistol thief is too strong. Tell me why you agree.
> >
> > 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull.
> >
> > Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight.
>
> There isn't a class in this game that can't do 15k damage in one second. Not a single class lacks that capability. NOT ONE.
>
> And thief has to give up literally everything to do it - the dp mobility, the evades, even the stealth (which I stand by my decision is useless but I digress), and general ability to win games against anyone who knows how to push the buttons on their keyboard.
>
> Why is thief doing 15k on a glass build, which is glassier than any other build, OP and all those other 15k attacks are fine?
Those other classes dont do it by litterally pressing 1 button as fast as possible
Id like to see some kind of rotaion to that build is all
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Add an option for other.....i wouldnt say my match are lob sided but most of my matches are close games till about 200-200 where either my team or the enemys just stalls out and the match ends as a 250-500. When this happens i just feel that the game and my time was worthless. I kinda feel bad for the enemy that they made no head way after a decent 1st half of the game, but when it happens to me i just get frustrated at my team mates and wish that there are 5 man qs so that there can be actual team coordination and strategy and set rolls for everyone to play healer damager bruiser/support ect.... Instead is a random as s grab of who ever and what ever build ur team mates are.
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> @"Vieux P.1238" said:
> Weeks has passed since rank started. What changed besides the constant complaining from players? Well a lot! The last few patches focused on Balancing & nerfing. Mesmers took a large hit and that's ok. Hackers have been punished & banned. & Anoying & problematic amulets & class stacking have been removed from pvp. & the best for last. The removal of some passives abilities from some classes. You know who you are. Just that point, made it all worth it. & players that lost that advantage realizes there not that good with out it. Having skill's & abilities to automatically engage with out clicking it on the keyboard does not make you a pro player. It makes you lazy & entitled.
>
> I finished my placement in rank last night with a none meta mirage build. & lost 2 matches out of 10 due to 1 inexperience player in the team. We all get one time to time. But for the first time in all the seasons, i felt satisfied in my placement. I'm sure i could of done 10 out of 10 if it was not for that 1 player in the team.
>
> I think next step for Anet to focus on is new pvp mods: New none conquest maps. 2v2 & 3v3 rank, build templates & so on. It should be a must.
>
> Anet, this last patch was step in the right direction. Players now realizes, unless your clicking & moving you will lose & die. The super tank & dishing out damage builds seems to have been removed. & players must make a choice on either going tanky or zerky or somewhere in the middle. No matter what, players now know there skill level true place. Either mice or men.
> This is good.
Lol u play mesmer np in gameplay vs other classes. Mes right now = easy mode...
i feel no amount of nerfing or cd increase will fix the problem, over all there game mechanic and all there skills and utilities are to much. They have everything under the sun, blocks, invuls, teleports that all can be chained almost endlessly when compaired to other classes abilities. As well as having incredible burst whether its condi or power, theres not much that can be done against a good mesmer that knows the rotations and timing of the skills and rotation. Thwy will just chain there defensives till you lose allyour offensive abilitities or go invis long enough to make a surpirse 15k+ attack.
Imo easy fix is having the clones/phantasums have like a 200-400 range movement so that the mesmer has to be in some kind of danger when setting up his attack then backing out to do the damage is fine. Being able to do everything at max range 1200 makes it alittle opness.
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> @"Legatus.3608" said:
> > @"ilmi.5369" said:
> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:
> > > There's nothing confusing here, I gave you direct quotes from you yourself.
> > >
> > > Let's go back to what we agree with:
> > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it
> > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet)
> > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack
> > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row
> > >
> > > Here's what we do not agree with so far:
> > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video)
> > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration)
> > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build)
> > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to)
> > >
> > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong.
> >
> > The whole conversation has got to a point which is totally pointless and repetitive but I will bite a last time before I'm out of here.
> >
> > You actually don't prove anything of your claims - you are quoting me but you don't actually respond to what I say. Instead you are writing your own opinion again and again. But let's have a closer look if you find it satisfying.
> >
> >
> >
> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:
> > > Let's go back to what we agree with:
> > > 1. P/P unload does lots of damage and CAN POTENTIALLY continue applying such damage if your opponents do not interrupt, dodge, LOS, or block it
> > > 2. The build itself is trash tier in actual high-level pvp play (I believe we all agree on this but I haven't seen you comment yet)
> > > 3. The build has a fair amount of access to stealth and can be used to stealth + attack
> > > 4. Unload builds DO NOT FUNCTION anymore if they are interrupted, blocked, LOS's, or dodged twice in a row
> > Yes that's among the things we agree on. furthermore I could list some more obvious things, such as that p/p thieves are less mobile than e.g. a d/p thief (assuming that he does not spec into daredevil which would give him the same amount of dodges and agility).
> >
> >
> > > Here's what we do not agree with so far:
> > No, this is not what we are not agreeing with. This is your list of things that, for some reason, you find important enough to discuss and I will comment on it a last time:
> >
> >
> > > 1. Surprise unloads either from stealth or surprise +1 are the common way a P/P attacks enemies (does not occur even once in the 10 minute video)
> > What is that 10 min video supposed to support? You can hardly see it as evidence of how all P/P out there are playing. On the contrary, it shows a dude that frequently uses stealth as a battle tactic and kills a bunch of people that continuously are making wrong combat decisions. While doing this, he permanently is investing is initiative not only in unloads but on porting across the map on shortbow or even stealthing with smoke field and cluster bomb. I guess you bring it as an example of skillful p/p play but you fail to see that he permanently does things you initially called out as untypical or unskilled behavior. It seems as if you are too busy busy with calling me wrong on whatever you think I'm saying, that you are adapting your arguments along the way.
> >
> > Besides, this thief is able to burst down his enemies without actually HAVING to surprise them, which does not mean that any other p/p thief would not facilitate his access to stealth for an ambush attack. For either a shorter duration without sacrificing any burst potential or for a longer duration by investing some more initiative. Either way, a p/p thief is able to attack on surprise and would facilitate this advantage if he can. Just browse the many other troll videos of people camping spawn on deadeye.
> >
> >
> > > 2. Stealthing yourself is actually beneficial to your team (it actually provides nothing of value, in fact removes an active player from your team during its duration)
> > Group stealth is beneficial for the whole team and individual stealth is beneficial for yourself and one of the core principals of thief in a defensive and offensive matter. Not dying to enemy burst because you are not focused shure also is in the interest of your team as it helps to fulfill your role as a thief. I guess we can agree on that? While it of course comes with side effects (e.g. capture point prevention, distraction from team) those play at best a very very little role on the priority list of a thief. We are talking about a class that obviously uses stealth in order to NOT be focused and in order to operate unseen. You just posted a video of a thief who permanently uses stealth in order to escape or to reposition. You could get the feeling that we are discussing the role of a warrior or ranger.
> >
> >
> > > 3. Unload is difficult to interrupt, block, dodge, or LOS two times in a row (very, very easy to do on any build)
> > No, it is not difficult, but it is a valid counter measure. And it is even easier to come stealthed myself and open the fight in my favor. Or to bomb the area with nuclear aoe damage where you just seen him disappearing . Or to be on a class like my warrior, firing up one of my many stun breaks when being hit by the first unload and then get shield block up, hoping that he is stupid enough to keep on unloading. But all that does not negate that it's not always in your hands to interrupt or counter him if he is getting you on surprise. When he already drained a significant part of your life pool before you can even target him and then brings you down in less than 2 seconds with another unload while you are busy with actually tracking him. While he is still on range. ready to show you more of his love with little to no effort. I mean just the fact that he can kill himself quite easily by reflect shows that unload does outperform in terms of damage and its frequency. THIS is where we disagree.
> >
> >
> > > 4. P/P is a build that moves around the map to +1 enemies and decap nodes like a DP thief (it can't spam mobility because it costs INI, can't spam stealth because it costs INI, and so it is not able to fulfill that role whereas a DP thief doesn't need his INI for anything other than stealth or mobility and so he can do those things whereas PP builds cannot afford to)
> > The video you just posted, shows exactly that. A thief who is moving around on the map, spending initiative on a lot of skill on his tool bar situational and still is able to unload when initiative is available.
> > Also, I don't see what the comparison to d/p is good for. Does a d/p thief need no initiative to first get into stealth (or to maintain stealth for previously mentioned extreme up time of 10s) in order to actually do a backstab? And then? He as swell has to maintain initiative costs and landing a high amount of burst does not only require preparation and is more difficult to apply, it is also not es repeatable in the same time frame as unload spam is. If you just want to say that as a package in the whole d/p is superior, I agree. But what does that matter?
> >
> > > Now I don't see how you can debate either of these other 3 points, but go ahead, explain to me why you think you are correct on these and I will explain why you are wrong.
> > I explained myself for the greater good of an understanding but I'm happy to agree that we disagree and wont further pay attention to that discussion.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Heh, no man. You keep accusing me of misquoting you and I'm not.
>
> Rather I'm having a hard time keeping track of the long paragraphs and in trying to get a concise picture of why specifically you think unload needs to be changed, and I still haven't figured it out because you keep arguing about stuff that as far as I can tell either isn't true or doesn't matter, one or the other. And I'm still not seeing what your issue is with this build.
>
> So let's just start there then, the title of the thread is that pistol pistol thief is too strong. Tell me why you agree.
15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull.
Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight.
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I still feel this needs to be a thing....playing 2+ condi necros or 2+ mesmers that do nothing but blinkn clone production clutter up. And creat visual imparing skills and countless clone ruins the quality and fun of every game where theres stacked classes. The mechanics of scourge and mesmer brakes the game game when there are more then 1 of each...having each mesmer make 4+ clones or have 2x scourges put down there shades continuously destroys any counterplay and fun this game may have in it left.
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> @"Legatus.3608" said:
> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:
> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:
> > > Dueling P/P thieves is easy. I win those handily on my holo. Getting +1'ed by one? Complete kitten.
> >
> > _Did you just complain about thief being kitten when it +1s a fight with P/P?_
> > What 1v2 are you supposed to win?
> >
> > I refer to my previous quote, with some modifiction:
> >
> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:
> > > Any thief that does significant damage is too powerful, and their playstyle is cheesy and annoying regardless of how fragile/easily countered it is.
> > >
> > > ~~Because shortbow and stealth. ~~ Because Pistol Pistol.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Uh, why is a thief doing significant damage too powerful? Is thief supposed to be the no-damage class? We can't bunker, we can't support, we can't contest nodes by ourselves, now we can't do damage either when we +1 by your logic, so we just don't play PVP anymore I guess in your ideal world? We run around avoiding all combat altogether and just camp empty nodes until every node is populated by at least 1 enemy and then we /ragequit?
I see your point, but being able to do so much damage by doing 1 button and with quickness its easily over the top. Its a great starter or finisher, like if they had a mechanic that if it chained two or 3 skills togeather and the seccessfully hit there 3rd or 4th attack will be incredibly strong. But as it is right now it just spammed and it lowers the quality of the fight in a bad way. Once focused they drop easy but that takes some team cordination and the lack of quality team q like a 5v5 q would have, or a mic system a quality pvp 5v5 game has would solve alot of issues.
-
> @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > @"Nash.3974" said:
> > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:
> > > > @"zoopop.5630" said:
> > > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:
> > > > > Yeah, we want a new type of daily that has less rewards, but reopens. We're still working on it. I was hoping we'd be able to do it without new UI, which would have sped things up a lot, but unfortunately, we're going to need some. Unfortunately, no estimate on time frame I can publish yet.
> > > >
> > > > KILLING ME !!!! Game getting beyond boring playing solo rank , and unrank is just even worse with no one to really challenge premade =/
> > >
> > > Sorry. :( But at least with the rotating schedule, you should have at least 2-3 days a week where the daily AT's cover your normal play time.
> >
> > Any plans on finally bringing duoq back? Why would you not allow people to duoq? Especially at times of wintrading etc? It’s frustrating to not be able to simply que with a buddy
>
> They've probably done a lot of research and found that people in a Massive **MULTIPLAYER** Online Game enjoy playing **ALONE** in a **TEAM** based gamemode. So no, they probably don't have any plans to let us play with our friends again.
>
> However, if they do, that _would_ be a pleasant surprise and make many people very happy.
If they miraculously allow a 3-5 man que id shead a few tears of joy garenteed.
-
Everyone in this thread would stop talking if we can only see our mmr and other peoples mmr rating that the matchmaker uses to make a game......whats there reasoning for not showing it?
-
this is in the daily tourny few minutes ago......having more then 1 class SPECIALLY NECRO AND MESMER just brakes the game and ends all fun and fairness that can happen. this is a 5 man team manipulating the match by stacking classes. when will they limit 1 per class specially in a tournament.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpQq8vzqpFRF5qR_y9LLzS27C9TRoe9d/view?usp=sharing
-
Only 1 my main.....i can only do so much pve befor i feel like I'm waisting my life
-
> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:
> > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:
> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:
> > > > @"Aza.2105" said:
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > Its simple to get almost 4000 power with p/p. 75% crit rate and nearly 240% crit dmg increase. This isn't taking into consideration the damage modifiers from various traits.
> > > >
> > > > 4000 power is a lot. The base power is around 2200ish with a zerk amulet. So p/p thief can get close to double. That is insane. Thanks anet, wonderful balance team you got here lol.
> > > >
> > >
> > > And 11k health
> > >
> > > Also show all the boons and trait lines and utilities
> > >
> > > The picture combined with what you say is rather misleading
> > >
> >
> > 11k hp isnt the problem is that they spamming continously for 15k+ with practicslly 1 action pressing 3 as fast as possible while other classes like ele or gaurd or war or any other class has to do it in 3-6 buttons and a weapon swap as well.
> >
>
> What defense other than dodge? Can they shoot while dodging? They are not Mesmer
They dont do it at point blank its a 900 ranged skill
-
> @"Yannir.4132" said:
> What ever happened to "projectile hate" in this game?
Theres nothing wrong with projectile hate, like i said it is a great finisher or startedter to a combo. But doing nothing buut 3 and doing 15k+ while it takes every other class multipullskills to do is not fair. Even ranger 2 only does 6-9k at most iv seen and that the next biggest projectile hate i can think of atm.
-
> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:
> > @"Aza.2105" said:
> > 
> >
> > Its simple to get almost 4000 power with p/p. 75% crit rate and nearly 240% crit dmg increase. This isn't taking into consideration the damage modifiers from various traits.
> >
> > 4000 power is a lot. The base power is around 2200ish with a zerk amulet. So p/p thief can get close to double. That is insane. Thanks anet, wonderful balance team you got here lol.
> >
>
> And 11k health
>
> Also show all the boons and trait lines and utilities
>
> The picture combined with what you say is rather misleading
>
11k hp isnt the problem is that they spamming continously for 15k+ with practicslly 1 action pressing 3 as fast as possible while other classes like ele or gaurd or war or any other class has to do it in 3-6 buttons and a weapon swap as well.
-
> @"reddie.5861" said:
> > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:
> > All im saying is no class should spam 1 button for upwards or more for 15k+....its a great start or finisher to a dps rotation but i guess the devs just arnt as smart as we all thought. They make classes like ele that require 3-6 actions to accomplish the same goals but say f it when ever they feel like it....this game is in the decline for sure....at least it is for me.
>
> why no class should be able to do it?
> i mean can steal > cloak and dagger > backstab prolly same effect with faster dmg out put and u most likely wont even be able to react at all.
>
> good old D/D thief core build is actually pretty darn fun in WvW, i sPvP its not much of a use i guess cus of CD on steal (not really needed but handy)
> theres many ways for thief to diss out more dmg within 1.5 second frame just because i have to press more buttons its okay? ;)
> look at mesmer blowing ur kitten to the moon within a second, just because they press few buttons its okay? while any kitten keyboard could turn this into 1 button also.
>
> Pistol on thief has already been nerfed to point that its quite useless, if u die to this troll build ur doing something wrong even if he bangs out 50k dmg in 1,5second if u just face tank a complete unload
Steal cloak and dagger and backstab are all still 3 moves that can be dodged even one of them can be be punished because they are all close ranged attacks the long range advange in a team fight that happens with spamming 3 continuously within less then 1.5 secs doing 15k+ damage is kinda unfair, but i see how it can be seen as not op if you got the right team comp to counter it.....all you really need is a focus ele with wind 4 or a tempest shareing magnetic aura to team mates but those build are just so countered by other classes thar it makes a team fight weak if that particular class isnt in the enemys comp.
-
All im saying is no class should spam 1 button for upwards or more for 15k+....its a great start or finisher to a dps rotation but i guess the devs just arnt as smart as we all thought. They make classes like ele that require 3-6 actions to accomplish the same goals but say f it when ever they feel like it....this game is in the decline for sure....at least it is for me.
-
P/p 3 needs to take up double initiative or something, being able to do 15k+ burst from litterally standing still and pressing litterally 1 button kills any opportunity of this game being fun and skillfull.
Its a great starter or finisher to a rotation but doing nothing but 3 for 15k+ is no fun or fair to fight against in a team fight.
-
so is the anet team aware of this problem? And if so is it on "The List" of things to work on and how is it going to be fixed?
-
> @"Kiroshima.8497" said:
> Personally, I'd like the opposite, nerf everyone else's mobility to be like Ride the Lightning, so you have to use them aggressively. Too many classes can just blink away with no penalty when they make any mistake. It's no wonder burst is meta when DPS specs never have a proper chance to land hits, mesmers stealth/blink/jaunt, thief shadowsteps, ele lightning flash, guardian JI/sword 2, Rocketboots Holosmith, etc. And there's nothing you can do to stop them besides have them yourself.
Your absolutely right nerf everything but that wonthappen.
To lower everyone mobility will take way to much work. It be easier to just revert the changes back to feb 26 2013 and that will bring it in line with druid staff, mesmer teles, and thf teles somewhat. 1 skill wont make up for what those classes have but this will help even the playing field alittle.....as it is right now i dont see a point in takeing dagger offhand.....theres more skills then RTL that are messed up...we got water 5 that heals for about 1.3k and clears 2 condis and is on a 30 seconds cd. That is double the cd for any worthwhile heal 6 skill. I rather have a 25 second interupt and a 40 second unblockable knockdown as it is with focus.....b.c of this i focus 100% of the time...there is no reason to take dagger off hand. Obsidian flesh unblockable knockdown interupts magnetic shield wind walls all of it is usefull in nearly any sitchuation to surivie or set up a counter burst......dagger has a baaad heal, long mobilty cd compaired to other classes, no defensive skills, a terrible knockdown, only thing that works on dagger off hand is fire 4 and 5 and even those are easily avoidable...but hay this is all my opinion.
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3 man que at least........yes please
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> @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > @"Meteor.3720" said:
> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > @"Meteor.3720" said:
> > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > @"Meteor.3720" said:
> > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Rufo.3716" said:
> > > > > > > > > So the actual player has to kill stuff now instead of just sitting there healing themselves. Wow, who would have thought players would actually have to kill things themselves. And FYI pet dmg is still over the top. Druid is a HEALING spec and shouldn't be able to put out much damage.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I mean so is weaver but it still nukes a point.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Weaver is a bruiser, and it doesn't nuke a point. Sword weaver doesn't hit hard at all, and glass weaver is single target and squishy af.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sage.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I know. Sage still hits like a paper towel, unless you can't dodge churning earth or firegrab.
> > > >
> > > > Primordial Stance + Lava Skin.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Holo is a damage spec but its as tanky as a Druid.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nice joke. Druid has far greater sustain and tankiness than Holo.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Prot holo.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Druid is still superior. Prot holo is dependant on boons, druid isn't. And the 3 sec -50% damage is hardly insurmountable.
> > > >
> > > > ?
> > > >
> > > > I shouldn't have to explain this to you.
> > > >
> > > > Druid is dependent on boons as well, protection most of all. Prot Holo may be dependent on boons, but it can still maintain most of them (including stability), indefinitely (unlike Druid). A Prot Holo has a winning matchup against a Druid on point because it has more pressure, cc, and cannot be knocked off because the Corona triggers stab on our pet every time.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mesmer literally has everything + utility.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Druid still has greater sustain and team sustain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Okay, but Mesmer is far more dominant on sides and way ahead in every other aspect.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > That's literally my point. Different classes have different roles and strengths. A class shouldn't be able to do everything (which is apparently what you want druid to do). Druid is still viable and competitive.
> > > >
> > > > Portal alone makes mesmer extremely dominant. The fact that it is stronger in nearly every other aspect makes it the most favorable pick for any comp.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Druid is just a potato right now. It literally does nothing except self heal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Stop with this please. Druid doesn't only self-heal - and if that's all you can do with it then you're playing wrong. They still have great 1v1 potential (even greater with longbow), great node holding, good team support, good mobility etc etc
> > > > > > > The fact that you complain druid doesn't have as much dps as mesmer/holo/thief shows that you just want the spec to be ridiculously OP - insane sustain and healing + top damage? Nice joke.
> > > > > > > Druid wasn't meant to be a dps spec. It was meant to be a support spec. It finally is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A Druid's 1v1 potential is fairly garbage. The only reason you'd run Druid competitively is if the player is really good at _not_ dying. Why is it hard to kill? Because it only self-heals.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Nice joke. You clearly haven't met any druids who actually know what they're doing.
> > > >
> > > > _[Clearly.](
)_> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Stop whining.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Druid even before the most recent round of nerfs was already considered trash tier in competitive play. It's in an even worse spot now.
> > > > >
> > > > > AHAHAHAHAHAHA.
> > > > > DRUID. TRASH TIER.
> > > > > Jeez ...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > That's why holos and mesmers dominated side points in the most recent monthly.
> > >
> > > I'm just gonna stop because you're going nowhere.
> > > You should look at the general tone of this thread to realise that 1) you're in the wrong and 2) druid is perfectly viable.
> > >
> > > Also I just can't resist.
> > > BUT REALLY? YOU THINK LAVA SKIN AND PRIMORDIAL STANCE MAKES WEAVER HIT HARD AND "NUKE A POINT"?! jfc
> >
> > Weaver has extremely strong counterpressure if someone overextends/can't leave point.
> >
> > Of course, I'm talking with someone who thinks that Churning Earth and Fire Grab are the only skills you have to avoid against a Weaver. LUL
>
> What do you against ranged pressure on weaver? Do pls explain us...like from mesmers or scourge with perma cripple...do pls tell us or even better show us a video
What i do is run focus and i got obsidian flesh amd magnetic wave but against more then 1 ranged pressure its not enough. Thats where team mates come in the calculations to help with the pressure. In 1v1 my weaver fa sc/f is strong enough for almost any encounter....what i do have peoblems with is tanky wars tanky friebrands, Aoe condi scrourges are a real problem
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> @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> What with this thread?....seriously ranger has never been in a better place in the game than ever before, it's currently one of the top classes in all game modes and I say this as a ranger main with over 2k hrs, as a ranger enthusiast and multiclass I can say this to rangers in this thread .....go play ele/rev in pvp then come back and try to tell me again that druid needs help...like I dare you to play an ele or rev in pvp
This guy knows whats up.
P/P is too powerful
in Player vs. Player
Posted
> @"Liewec.2896" said:
> i did have good fun a few nights ago when i managed to melt a p/p thief from 100% to dead in about 2 seconds,
> they're so incredibly squishy,
>
> to make it even funnier i was on a zerker axe/axe war XD
>
> headbutt hit em for 7,8k headbutt, followed by a 10.6k dualstrike which downed em,
> followed immediately by a 24k decapitate which instantly finished em. XD
> 
>
> in short, p/p is great damage sure, but they also crumble the moment you glance at them. :lol:
Any 1v1 sitchuation i feel a thf will be in a disadvantage, but in team fights where they can sneak up and spam 1 button as fast as possilbe for 15k+ is the biggest advantage a class can have, untill the enemy team smartens up and focuses that thf 1st. But that takes coordination that this game is lacking. Putting a target on someone doesnt always help when you have 5 random (no offense) aholes spamming condis, clones, and everything else specially in low teirs where no one cares except a few that really want to climb. With out a proper 5v5 its just frustrating.