ZDragon.3046

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Zraurum.8493" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Zraurum.8493" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > Its interesting though a 50% nerf to something the weapon at its base level does not have at all..... so slotting mirage its more like a 50% gain still. At least only looking at the ambush.

> > > > > > In any case its now low risk lower reward while axe shows itself to be higher risk higher reward (at least from the few people bumpped into using it.)

> > > > > > Axe hurts its just not as safe as staff which is probably how it should be for the better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Overall the patch was not the worst patch we have had and thats speaking from looking at what happened to everyone not just mesmer.

> > > > >

> > > > > With all this, this happened for the first time, with the Mesmer, it comes from patch to patch, but if earlier you could somehow get out of there by correcting the traits in order to reduce the influence of the nerf, then now, they climbed into the mechanics of the clones and buried the condies staff as a class. I lost count of how many mesmer nerfs there were, starting from the ax nerf ending with what we did yesterday.

> > > >

> > > > Other professions have had more nerfs imo than mesmer in general has. Mesmer just gets some really mean ones every 2 or 3 balances while everyone else for the most part maybe except Guardian gets lots of smaller nerfs each balance. Mesmer is known for skipping balance passes which leads to sudden hard nerfs once complaints reach a critical point. People knew staff ambush was a problem back before CI got nerfed if not way before them yet some how it made it all the way to yesterday before it got changed. Like had they just slowly toned it down over the past few patches it wouldnt have gotten a drastic immediate 50% cut that said Mirage still does not have its own shatters and people were not even encouraged to shatter while using a staff it has its own set of issues that anet still has not addressed.

> > > >

>

> Mesmer and Mirage have been nerfed way more than any other class we have had entire traits removed multiple times. I mean what happened to chrono? Seriously, mesmer has been nerfed over and over in very impactful ways that most of the time resulted in limiting trait and build options to the point that most mesmers all use the same stuff now BECAUSE EVERYTHING HAS BEEN NERFED TO HELL. For instance, even things none of us even think of like focus off hand to reflect has been nerfed. So many kitten things have been nerfed soon as people tried to use them in pvp and never really retuned and then other things get nerfed without any give back or new option being made. At least back in 2017 we got some changes to create new options (which directed people away from things like axe).

>

> > > > People are already pointing fingers at insta burst core mesmer too. Dont be surprised if mantras get changed next. Based on what i saw being typed in game last night mesmers future is looking kinda grim.

> > >

> > > Right now I went into the lobby to see just the characteristics, the chaos of the vortex became the same as the wind chaos, that is, in fact this skill became even worse than a normal nuke, as it is being delayed! This is how to correct the balance to make an elite spell worse than usual ...

> > > I didn’t look at the cut mechanics of the clones, since it was obvious that the staff of the build was unplayable

> They nerfed the condition durations on the ambush to half which aguably makes staff worse than it was before it got buffed back in 2017 which is when people started to consider using it in the first place in pvp again. Staff was never that great, the point of using as mirage is for that ambush and in general as mesmer was always for the 2 phants on a short timer. without those the protection from traiting staff via chaos should arguably just become base for chaos storm at the very least so it at least retains utility while allowing for other traits to be used with it to create more options.

>

> > I saw a few staff users last night but they didnt camp staff anymore they used it for a short moment but yeh its not insane anymore where you can just sit in staff for a solid 20s and know you are doing damage better than most other weapons in your outside of offhand pistol burst.

>

> If people sit on staff then they are using clones and ambush which has ramp up time vs spawning the clones and using to shatter. It becomes risky and higher skill to use staff this way since any decent opponent will just cleave down the clones and damage or expose the Mesmer in the process .

>

> > Ive gotten ripped up by a few axe mirages too i think people should invest in giving axe another shot.

> Axe is mostly garbage in wvw/pvp. Yes, the damage "can" be good if you compare it to present nerf levels on other options, however, that ignores how bad the axe mechanics are. Granted I used axe long time and will agree it can work and when it does it can be fun. That said, the 600 range on the shadow step for 3 and the fact that its meager 3/4s evade is tied to this 600 range AND if it works you are teleporting to the opponent is suicide in many match-ups (warrior, reaper, etc). What in fact often happens with axe 3 is you try to execute it but the evade doesn't go off either due to range or de-targeting. Additionally, The damage on axe and its conditions have been nerfed multiple times which made it less rewarding vs the high risk which is exactly why myself and others stopped using it like a year or so ago. The suggestion we should all now go back to it is pretty ridiculous. From my recent experience axe mirage is still very easy to take out these days and with all the other nerfs that impact things like energy regen, mirage cloak evade window, ambush damage I would say its as bad an option as anything else probably worse at present since the current meta typically requires better sustain so anyone trying to use axe is either going to be swapping weapons to staff or scepter for defense/utility or moving off point (loss of point control), either way it doesn't suggest axe is good.

>

All i can say for most of this is that i dont agree based on my experince in playing the game, reading patch notes, using chrono was a fine example. Everyone knew chrono was up for changes and time and time again it slipped through balance passes. When its time finally came it got hit hard with some harsh changes while others got minor wirst taps during that particular patch after all they had already had their slam dunks in the previous patch or two if not way before then.

Anet had already said that elites without trade offs would get them and in the patch that enforced them on most other elites if i recall (could be slightly incorrect here) mesmer or chrono and mirage managed to escape that patch some how and on the very next patch balance chrono got hit turning it into what it is today.

I would say mesmer is always late to the party with balance but most certainly does not see more nerfs than any other profession sees.

im not going to argue about what you think about mirage axe after all you are entitled to your own opinion on it and im entitled to mine.

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > - none elite builds being able to use elite map pets (one of which provides way too much in terms of both damage and utility which is why its used in almost every competitive build)

>

> Seen this argument made before and strongly disagree, if you limited pets like that then you'd effectively kill Rangers competitive build diversity and force everyone to start playing the same generic Soulbeast builds.

> Nobody is going to run a Druid.. a healing spec for the Smokescale and Core Ranger will more or less be pushed out of the game mode entirely.

> If you forbid non specs to used expansion pets then you'd also have to restrict the core pets elite specs could use too otherwise they would be blatantly superior to core class and that's something i'm pretty sure the Devs have said in the past they absolutely don't want elite specs to be.

Well no one is going to resitrct core pets being combined with elites thats just silly but the other way around is possibly fair game.

To reverse ideals of killing ranger build diversity this it means effectively that the ranger is potentially back peddling on 1 or 2 pets which is also not good. If you say ranger is dead without smoke scale than smoke scale is equally part problem as to why some people see it as over performing. Build diveristy already looks pretty slim with ranger because all i see is smokescale, pig, and deer, and rarely someone uses a bear for immunity with soul-beast. As far as pets go people dont bother with much diversity as it is and i cant help but wonder if its that all pets are bad or maybe just a few of them are over performing (a conversation for another day)

There are other HoT pets and other PoF pets that see almost no use 1 because smoke scale immediately takes one slot in 9/10 builds.

>

> > - gs block duration is far too long for the short cd it has its basically stronger than warrior shield block with a counter attack option not sure this should be a thing something needs to change here either the duration of the block or the cd of the block.

>

> It is a pretty strong block, I guess that's the tradeoff for the removal of evade though.

I thought the evade on auto was fine.

What was not fine is intentionally triggering the 3rd part of the auto chain 3 times in a row for a very long extended evade duration. All they really needed to do was force the chain to reset to the first hit instead of allowing the 3rd hit to repeat 2-3 times.

> I do like that the counter attack is player input based now rather than auto/cancelling the block.. but I miss the ability to throw the greatsword at a fleeing enemy to cripple them, I used that quite a bit when I ran GS.

This part is fine no one will argue that counter attack was bad before if someone hit you at ranged but it did kind of make the gs predictable and could force the block to be ended early i just think as it is right now gs block should not be outperforming warrior shield block but thats just me. Minor number adjustment really only need to be made there.

Going back to the smoke scale though this thing is a problem and while im not saying it should be treated as for what i said previously it certainly needs to be looked into with just how much it provides to all builds of ranger which is why its so over used. Its a very strong well rounded pet in terms of damage and utility especially when combined with soul-beast. Nerf it? No.... not yet but do keep an eye on it while looking at other areas of ranger. Maybe start comparing how ranger performs in competitive modes across different builds with it vs without it even when using other HoT and PoF pets which generally all of which are better than Core game pets having a fairly smarter AI and superior attacks compared to core game pets.

In pvp matches remove the ability to whisper or even chat to the enemy team during the match.

Inside you own team there should be some kind of negative karma report system where if you get enough hits you start to build up some kind of punishment or something that only matches you with people who have a similar number of reports.

If only truly toxic people could only be matched with other toxic people the problem would be solved fairly quickly.

I usually only report people if the toxicity gets to a level where it starts to sound more like harassment or gets racial etc. There are no needs to say somethings swearing is ok but you know when you go to far the moment you even think to type it.

Ideally people who want to be toxic will continue to be toxic until they are properly punished for it showing such improper behavior. You dont learn not to do something wrong if you dont get punished for doing it.

Outside of matches its just dependent on people to not have have a god complex tbh

The number of people ive seen on Team USA (or at least going by the guild tag) act like butts to other players even in just free for all arena let alone in even unranked matches just because "hey look at me good at the game" is beyond me.

The idea that "you dont play the way i do" thus "I can bully, be toxic, and harass" mentality is just one of the many things that ruins pvp imo at least when i see it. I also see it more often than i like.

I know it happens in all competitive games but gw2 has to be one of games where i see it far more often than i would like to see it.

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Tbh the best parts of this whole patch in general were

> > - weapons can now be hidden

> > - Unholy buff to heal based on max hp its much better than it was even if you still call it noob bait im alwasy up for changing things that are not used at all vs just leaving them alone. Death magic has many other issues than just this trait and even as it stands right now i would class the other issues like Soul comp over Unholy.

> > - Undeath passive increase which is not big for me but a nice change. Its better than shadow for scourge but not for reaper but as you said you are mostly looking at scourge.

> >

> > Literally everything else is questionable as heck.

> >

> > Lilly ive said it before and ill say it again.

> >

> > Scourge in its current form wont ever be balanced right or accepted it was doomed from the moment anet left it jacked up for 2 months on its release. You cant wash away the bad taste this elite has put in players mouths and anet has been doing damage control with scourge since it was released. Especially since then any change for pvp or wvw directly effected pve.

> >

> > At this point scourge literally needs to be scrapped and given a fresh start there wont be a version of these shades that are effective but also don't violently infuriate anyone that has to stand against them especially in competitive modes. In pve the shades likely wont ever be more effective than they are right now based on the track record of changes that they keep getting.

> >

> > They honestly should have just reworked scourge ages ago into just a whole new elite instead of trying to keep up this track record where its basically trying to act as its own profession all in 1 line.

>

> Necromancer has always been a grind of a class to fight. The scourge didn't change that. I'll use an example from outside the game. Control decks in Magic the gathering tend to be a grind to fight against. They can be difficult and frustrating because they just remove all your stuff and counter all your spells. But they're a pillar of Magic: the gathering. They're required to keep other decks in check. Necromancer fills a similar role. They're designed to keep other builds in check and scourge is no different. The WvW players are worried that without the Scourge the meta will shift to the boon meta which will result in the removal of condition builds and may even reduce the number of used stat combinations since Conditions wont be viable at all and it'll be more important to build into your battle cruiser meta. Necromancer is a stop gap to keep the game balanced. And I do agree that that job shouldn't solely rest on the necromancer's shoulders, however it very clearly does.

This is a good example actually im very impressed you came up with this. But yes i agree that job should not only be on the necormancer i always at first thought of boon corruption as a Tool to lower other professions potential down to a similar level as the necro in the early days as other professions had a wider spread of boons still and necro was mostly just might. IT felt optional as a nice to take in your build if you wanted it but not totally required. Today its almost always required especially against some builds that rangers, firebrand, and warriors have which can be very rough to compete against so long as they are dripping in boons.

>

> If the scourge drops entirely from WvW zergs the future nerfs wont be to the necromancer. It'll be to everyone else. They'll lose a lot of nice tools and everyone else will be worse off because of it. The same is true in Magic the Gathering. When control doesn't have a place in the meta, when it just isn't good enough to compete large numbers of cards get banned. We've seen a lot of this in the past year and we can expect similar results from GW2.

Hmmm well im just not so sure how to handle it because scourge is in such a hard place right now that its basically just acting as a balance tool while at the same time its design is never going to be accepted by a none scourge player even more so when they have to combat it.

>

> Agree or disagree, the Reaper and Core necromancer are not up to the Scourge's role. And neither is the Spellbreaker or Mesmer.

I agree they are not up to the same role in terms of large scale fights where its 40v40 in smaller scaled fights though core and reaper can be closer in comparison to the same role that scourge takes up with lesser effectiveness as they are more effective in other characteristics like dealing direct damage or being able to take more damage.

I really would argue though that the state of wvw should have never reached what it is today to even require scourge to be forced into such a role as 8 other professions boon manager. No 1 class should be doing that to the extent that scourge does it. I get the concept of offensive support instead of direct support like healing but i meant this is a really tough and nasty spot scourge has gotten itself into and i think before scourge can have a chance at keeping its current design everyone else needs to undergo some changes as well. Starting with cutting boons back heavily across the board which is something that has not been done yet in gw2 history. It was done with conditions once before but not boons.

The heal is fine the real main issues with ranger are

- none elite builds being able to use elite map pets (one of which provides way too much in terms of both damage and utility which is why its used in almost every competitive build)

- gs block duration is far too long for the short cd it has its basically stronger than warrior shield block with a counter attack option not sure this should be a thing something needs to change here either the duration of the block or the cd of the block.

- rangers have some pretty busted boon generation

The ranger heals are actually fine and well balanced imo

Troll Unguant takes basically 9 seconds to complete its full healing potential if you include the half second cast time if the ranger is low enough Troll Unguant is one of the worst heals they can take because you dont get a burst of healing on cast. The reason Troll Unguant looks strong is because when used at half or high health percentages ranger has hella tools to ensure they can avoid, block, or just disengage all together.

I would literally argue that if only druids could take smoke scale because its a pet that came with HoT then Ranger would be tone down hella hard with just that change alone.

Ranger the combo of warrior meets thief with lesser draw backs of both of those professions in one.

> @"Zraurum.8493" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Zraurum.8493" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > Its interesting though a 50% nerf to something the weapon at its base level does not have at all..... so slotting mirage its more like a 50% gain still. At least only looking at the ambush.

> > > > In any case its now low risk lower reward while axe shows itself to be higher risk higher reward (at least from the few people bumpped into using it.)

> > > > Axe hurts its just not as safe as staff which is probably how it should be for the better.

> > > >

> > > > Overall the patch was not the worst patch we have had and thats speaking from looking at what happened to everyone not just mesmer.

> > >

> > > With all this, this happened for the first time, with the Mesmer, it comes from patch to patch, but if earlier you could somehow get out of there by correcting the traits in order to reduce the influence of the nerf, then now, they climbed into the mechanics of the clones and buried the condies staff as a class. I lost count of how many mesmer nerfs there were, starting from the ax nerf ending with what we did yesterday.

> >

> > Other professions have had more nerfs imo than mesmer in general has. Mesmer just gets some really mean ones every 2 or 3 balances while everyone else for the most part maybe except Guardian gets lots of smaller nerfs each balance. Mesmer is known for skipping balance passes which leads to sudden hard nerfs once complaints reach a critical point. People knew staff ambush was a problem back before CI got nerfed if not way before them yet some how it made it all the way to yesterday before it got changed. Like had they just slowly toned it down over the past few patches it wouldnt have gotten a drastic immediate 50% cut that said Mirage still does not have its own shatters and people were not even encouraged to shatter while using a staff it has its own set of issues that anet still has not addressed.

> >

> > People are already pointing fingers at insta burst core mesmer too. Dont be surprised if mantras get changed next. Based on what i saw being typed in game last night mesmers future is looking kinda grim.

>

> Right now I went into the lobby to see just the characteristics, the chaos of the vortex became the same as the wind chaos, that is, in fact this skill became even worse than a normal nuke, as it is being delayed! This is how to correct the balance to make an elite spell worse than usual ...

> I didn’t look at the cut mechanics of the clones, since it was obvious that the staff of the build was unplayable

>

>

I saw a few staff users last night but they didnt camp staff anymore they used it for a short moment but yeh its not insane anymore where you can just sit in staff for a solid 20s and know you are doing damage better than most other weapons in your outside of offhand pistol burst.

Ive gotten ripped up by a few axe mirages too i think people should invest in giving axe another shot.

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> There is a reason why WvW blob are full of necro and not mesmers.

Yes and its not for the reasons you listed

WvW is full of necros because in zerg fights aoe's are king and necro brings tons of aoe while mesmer does not. Mesmer contributes almost nothing to a zerg fight so there is no reason for them to be there.

The issue in pvp is not nearly the same.

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > > > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > > > > @topic

> > > > > > When I was new to the game I did encounter this build (it exists since mesmer exists and is not bound to an elite spec) and I got oneshot. I am still playing the game and I don't get oneshot anymore. Not on necro with 0 life force and not on any other class.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > RisenHowl what happened? Do I remember correctly that you play a lot of WvW? WvW is full of this gimmicky mesmer build. Tons of training opportunities... Your positioning leaves also some room for improvements. Esp. in the first scene: as a necro stay behind your team mates (and I mean literally!) until you got some life force. You are not the frontline at the beginning of a match! Never! If they move in slow motion to mid, you move even slower!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Besides that, when you encounter a coordinated team while being in a team of pugs with bad map and team awareness, you get farmed (and me too!). And that will happen in any multiplayer-videogame. That's not GW2 specific.

> > > > >

> > > > > First target in every fight is the necro, it wouldn't have mattered if I went out first, third, or all at once. I was going to get targeted first. Not a problem with 1 mes, but with 4 there's no chance of avoiding the 1 shot. This was a no-win situation

> > > >

> > > > It would have trust me you had you waited a bit you at least would have likely been able to wait out the mesmers stealth so you would have at least seen the mesmer coming at you.

> > > >

> > > > Necros cannot run in first with 0 life force because you are just asking to be slapped to the floor by any profession that looks at you. Now some teams will always turn to focus you which can be good or bad depending on you and your team as your team gets the pressure pulled off them which might let them peel or support you. It really depends though. Yes necro is usually focused first which is why you dont go in first.... If you think you cant do mid then even try going far first (depending on whats there) you odds might be better. I usually depending on the map at least look to see what profession ran far on the enemy team before going to mid if I go to mid first im just asking to be killed because i have 0 LF i cant really defend myself without LF as a reaper and my offensive pressure is also not going to be very great without LF.

> > > >

> > > > I would rather be late and have a chance to make a change in the team fight then be the first and dead and not have gotten to fight at all.

> > > >

> > > > Im not excusing the fact that you would have still not gotten blown up in this specific match of pvp but i mean that initial first opening kill they got on you most certainly could have been avoided. especially if you saw at the start of the match you were up against 2 or 3 mesmers NEVER GO TO MID FIRST. That many mesmers on a team is just the perfect idea to start with Mass invis it would have 100% been worth it to hang back even if you still lost the team fight at mid because of it.

> > > >

> > > > Trust me ive ran into mesmer comps that have hit me with this before too. ITs not fun, its frustrating, and just god awful but still. Some basic things you can do you should still do if it might make a difference.

> > >

> > > Tell you what, how about I get 4 other people to play mesmer and record us vs you. That way you can show me, and everyone else, how to survive it properly?

> >

> > I think you missed the part where i said you would likely still die in the end but still there were alot of things in that video especially before you started getting spawn camped that you could have or rather should have been doing that you didn't do. As i said that first death could have been avoided or less immediate had you waited for a bit or not gone in first.

> >

> > Necro is already at a disadvantage vs most mesmer builds especially ones like these that incorporate things like mantra of distraction (power lock). 1 Mesmer like that i could probably handle with a few lucky reads but 2 or 3 at the same time is not possible for anything thats not like thief or another mesmer to handle.

> >

> > With necro literally knowing is half the battle because you dont have many tools to cover your mistakes or get you out of trouble once you get into it.

> >

> > Im no pro but i know not to run into the mid first as a necro i use to do it too but i got tired of getting immediately focused like that bit it from a stealth kill or 4 people jumping on you at once so i dont run in first anymore i dont care what the rest of my team is or what im playing aginst i dont run in first on necro lol. You could bring 5 thieves or better yet 5 elementalist which generally are countered by necros for all i care and i still wouldnt run in first. Thats just not wise and if you keep running in like that you will keep getting killed like that till you learn not to do it unless they change something with necro thats more modern than flesh wurm that lets them escape bad situations.

>

> So, no then? Because you must by now realize it's a no win scenario. If I had avoided the first mesmer, the second would have killed me. They open from stealth and will always target the necro first, even when tHeY wAiT tO oG iN.

>

> You can't camp the fear mark either, it's not like it's invisible. There's nothing stopping them from using f3 before blink.

You cant win every match up. Some times i need other people to tell me this too.

IT does not matter if you out matched or not if you want to run in like a fool when you know you are going to be focused first then you will die like a fool and you shouldnt complain about it. Even if there is a 2nd mesmer who still would have gotten you. STILL DONT RUN IN FIRST "what the heck"

> @"Zraurum.8493" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Its interesting though a 50% nerf to something the weapon at its base level does not have at all..... so slotting mirage its more like a 50% gain still. At least only looking at the ambush.

> > In any case its now low risk lower reward while axe shows itself to be higher risk higher reward (at least from the few people bumpped into using it.)

> > Axe hurts its just not as safe as staff which is probably how it should be for the better.

> >

> > Overall the patch was not the worst patch we have had and thats speaking from looking at what happened to everyone not just mesmer.

>

> With all this, this happened for the first time, with the Mesmer, it comes from patch to patch, but if earlier you could somehow get out of there by correcting the traits in order to reduce the influence of the nerf, then now, they climbed into the mechanics of the clones and buried the condies staff as a class. I lost count of how many mesmer nerfs there were, starting from the ax nerf ending with what we did yesterday.

Other professions have had more nerfs imo than mesmer in general has. Mesmer just gets some really mean ones every 2 or 3 balances while everyone else for the most part maybe except Guardian gets lots of smaller nerfs each balance. Mesmer is known for skipping balance passes which leads to sudden hard nerfs once complaints reach a critical point. People knew staff ambush was a problem back before CI got nerfed if not way before them yet some how it made it all the way to yesterday before it got changed. Like had they just slowly toned it down over the past few patches it wouldnt have gotten a drastic immediate 50% cut that said Mirage still does not have its own shatters and people were not even encouraged to shatter while using a staff it has its own set of issues that anet still has not addressed.

People are already pointing fingers at insta burst core mesmer too. Dont be surprised if mantras get changed next. Based on what i saw being typed in game last night mesmers future is looking kinda grim.

Tbh the best parts of this whole patch in general were

- weapons can now be hidden

- Unholy buff to heal based on max hp its much better than it was even if you still call it noob bait im alwasy up for changing things that are not used at all vs just leaving them alone. Death magic has many other issues than just this trait and even as it stands right now i would class the other issues like Soul comp over Unholy.

- Undeath passive increase which is not big for me but a nice change. Its better than shadow for scourge but not for reaper but as you said you are mostly looking at scourge.

Literally everything else is questionable as heck.

Lilly ive said it before and ill say it again.

Scourge in its current form wont ever be balanced right or accepted it was doomed from the moment anet left it jacked up for 2 months on its release. You cant wash away the bad taste this elite has put in players mouths and anet has been doing damage control with scourge since it was released. Especially since then any change for pvp or wvw directly effected pve.

At this point scourge literally needs to be scrapped and given a fresh start there wont be a version of these shades that are effective but also don't violently infuriate anyone that has to stand against them especially in competitive modes. In pve the shades likely wont ever be more effective than they are right now based on the track record of changes that they keep getting.

They honestly should have just reworked scourge ages ago into just a whole new elite instead of trying to keep up this track record where its basically trying to act as its own profession all in 1 line.

Its interesting though a 50% nerf to something the weapon at its base level does not have at all..... so slotting mirage its more like a 50% gain still. At least only looking at the ambush.

In any case its now low risk lower reward while axe shows itself to be higher risk higher reward (at least from the few people bumpped into using it.)

Axe hurts its just not as safe as staff which is probably how it should be for the better.

Overall the patch was not the worst patch we have had and thats speaking from looking at what happened to everyone not just mesmer.

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:>

> > > > What about lowering condition caps in general?

> > > >

> > > As long as you limit the amount of damage you can take from power if multiple targets are hitting you.

> >

> > **most power damage is fine the issue with power strikes over performing is the insane might gen that alot of professions have.** You tone the might down and their goes their damage. its not quite the same with conditions right now.

> >

> > Right now some condition builds perform like power builds while keeping the sustain that running a condition build provides. ITs naturally for condition builds to have more sustain so that the conditions have time to do damage and so that you can survive while waiting for that damage to be done. But for example weaver burn combos melt you like you ate at a power burst combo from a warrior and that should not be a thing in the game.

> >

> >

> The limit idea is just bad....player A interacting with player B should have no impact on me, player C, interacting with player A.

To be honest that was just a quick idea but probably not the best one, but i see what you mean the issue is more player A melting player B quicker than power build Player C can nuke Player B when anet said conditions are explicitly not suppose to work that way.

>

> This is my problem with this entire argument every time it comes up and its always, in the most general sense:

> "Insert condi build here is a problem so all conditions are a problem" VS "Insert power build here is an issue and here are the points that are causing that build to be an issue".

Most power builds are not as safe as alot of the condition builds they are compared to lets not forget this the safest power build was high evasion staff thief which was using the bugged staff 3 and we saw what happened so expect the same to condition builds that are called out within similar reasoning.

>

> You specifically mention fire weaver but if all conditions were a problem then this build would have always been an issue but it wasn't until the fire line and ele burning got a buff. Where are my complaints about condi engi, condi warrior, condi ranger, rev? When one of them gets a condi build thats strong are all conditions to blame once again? Where were the complaints about fire weaver before the buff? There weren't any because non-mender water weaver was considered bad.

I mentioned fire weaver as an example but you can also look at poison thief or staff mirage before the nerfs if you like, heck even firebrand. Weaver is probably one of my least concerning elites when it comes to looking at the annoyance of conditions.

And i dont even think the fire line buff was the issue the issue was specifically just weaver with primordial stance and being able to perform evades while it pulsed generally speaking you just cant fight a weaver till they leave fire or their stances are not active because its over punishing to be in melee range of them that said kiting is a solution.

As far as condi engi, warrior, ranger and rev (which they all do have builds some which solid believe it or not) are not complained about because they dont instantly melt you after landing afew taps and are not as safe while applying their conditions or their applications have very blunt down times in which if you evade or clense burst you have ample time combat them.

There are reasons why those builds are not complained about because they are seen as more balanced properly than some of the other major offenders (most of which are just too safe for the damage they deal)

>

> Its even in your post in bold. "Power builds that generate a lot of might are an issue" VS "Some condi builds are over-tuned so the damage type is OP and needs handicapping". People need to get over the bias and generalisation. Conditions in general are mostly fine, just like power is mostly fine. Just there are some build in both that are over-tuned.

Once again one example of many i could list out my issue with each condition if you wanted because almost all of them have something i dont like about them but then again they are conditions you are not suppose to like them when they are on you. I could say i have a small issue with each condition and in some cases its not on what its doing to me its on what its not doing to the target its applied to.

>

> I would go as far as to say that condi as a damage type is weak. Because in the current game state cleanse is so high that if you aren't on a build that puts out a lot of variety, reapplication or both you are borderline irrelevant.

Cleanses are high because condition pressure is high it only make sense dont say conditions are weak just because people run cleanses that makes no sense.

Everyone runs a generous amount of cleanse because they dont want to be instantly melted if they happen to take a few hits but those few hits applied 10 burn or some how you ended up with 22 confusion 15 torment etc.

Wide verity does not always mean its better though it can mean that only if everyone is like that though.

So long as most professions only have 1 or 2 conditions to focus on it will mean your stack counts reach insane numbers very fast which causes people to instantly melt if anything i would prefer everyone had a wider spread, for longer durations, with much much lower stack counts (similar to what you see with core necormancer) so its not instantly killing you. Especially if you apply your conditions extremely safely.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> It is biased, I started with saying it's an opinionated rant. The reason the list is short is just because I'm at work and decided to cut things short and lump the rest I didn't cover into a generalization. I just target the ones I find to be the most annoying, personally.

Understandable and knowing this your list makes more sense to me.

I personally find burning very frustrating to deal with (in high counts) and immoblize depending on how it was applied. When a ranger does it its "how annoying but i can handle this" when the old mesmer CI was doing it it was just **bang head against desk or wall** level infuriating.

But all conditions are problematic in some way. I personally think torment should not exist in the game in its current form and that the way torment works should have just been how bleed works from the start.

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> Gosh pls yes, i would watch that video, no matter in which way that will turn out it will make my day!

IT would turn out with me no doubt getting murdered by 5 mesmers. Especially ones running that build. **insert wheezing laughter here**

If i was doing it for sake of bsing and fun(knowing what im about to run into and having the choice to do it) i wouldnt be frustrated by it. IF i was going into a standard pvp match i would be extremely frustrated running into that and i sympathize with him on that regard. That said if people are giving you blunt open tips on how to not die as quick as necro then its prob worth giving them a try before taking it with an aggressive tone.

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > > @topic

> > > > When I was new to the game I did encounter this build (it exists since mesmer exists and is not bound to an elite spec) and I got oneshot. I am still playing the game and I don't get oneshot anymore. Not on necro with 0 life force and not on any other class.

> > > >

> > > > RisenHowl what happened? Do I remember correctly that you play a lot of WvW? WvW is full of this gimmicky mesmer build. Tons of training opportunities... Your positioning leaves also some room for improvements. Esp. in the first scene: as a necro stay behind your team mates (and I mean literally!) until you got some life force. You are not the frontline at the beginning of a match! Never! If they move in slow motion to mid, you move even slower!

> > > >

> > > > Besides that, when you encounter a coordinated team while being in a team of pugs with bad map and team awareness, you get farmed (and me too!). And that will happen in any multiplayer-videogame. That's not GW2 specific.

> > >

> > > First target in every fight is the necro, it wouldn't have mattered if I went out first, third, or all at once. I was going to get targeted first. Not a problem with 1 mes, but with 4 there's no chance of avoiding the 1 shot. This was a no-win situation

> >

> > It would have trust me you had you waited a bit you at least would have likely been able to wait out the mesmers stealth so you would have at least seen the mesmer coming at you.

> >

> > Necros cannot run in first with 0 life force because you are just asking to be slapped to the floor by any profession that looks at you. Now some teams will always turn to focus you which can be good or bad depending on you and your team as your team gets the pressure pulled off them which might let them peel or support you. It really depends though. Yes necro is usually focused first which is why you dont go in first.... If you think you cant do mid then even try going far first (depending on whats there) you odds might be better. I usually depending on the map at least look to see what profession ran far on the enemy team before going to mid if I go to mid first im just asking to be killed because i have 0 LF i cant really defend myself without LF as a reaper and my offensive pressure is also not going to be very great without LF.

> >

> > I would rather be late and have a chance to make a change in the team fight then be the first and dead and not have gotten to fight at all.

> >

> > Im not excusing the fact that you would have still not gotten blown up in this specific match of pvp but i mean that initial first opening kill they got on you most certainly could have been avoided. especially if you saw at the start of the match you were up against 2 or 3 mesmers NEVER GO TO MID FIRST. That many mesmers on a team is just the perfect idea to start with Mass invis it would have 100% been worth it to hang back even if you still lost the team fight at mid because of it.

> >

> > Trust me ive ran into mesmer comps that have hit me with this before too. ITs not fun, its frustrating, and just god awful but still. Some basic things you can do you should still do if it might make a difference.

>

> Tell you what, how about I get 4 other people to play mesmer and record us vs you. That way you can show me, and everyone else, how to survive it properly?

I think you missed the part where i said you would likely still die in the end but still there were alot of things in that video especially before you started getting spawn camped that you could have or rather should have been doing that you didn't do. As i said that first death could have been avoided or less immediate had you waited for a bit or not gone in first.

Necro is already at a disadvantage vs most mesmer builds especially ones like these that incorporate things like mantra of distraction (power lock). 1 Mesmer like that i could probably handle with a few lucky reads but 2 or 3 at the same time is not possible for anything thats not like thief or another mesmer to handle.

With necro literally knowing is half the battle because you dont have many tools to cover your mistakes or get you out of trouble once you get into it.

Im no pro but i know not to run into the mid first as a necro i use to do it too but i got tired of getting immediately focused like that bit it from a stealth kill or 4 people jumping on you at once so i dont run in first anymore i dont care what the rest of my team is or what im playing aginst i dont run in first on necro lol. You could bring 5 thieves or better yet 5 elementalist which generally are countered by necros for all i care and i still wouldnt run in first. Thats just not wise and if you keep running in like that you will keep getting killed like that till you learn not to do it unless they change something with necro thats more modern than flesh wurm that lets them escape bad situations.

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:>

> > What about lowering condition caps in general?

> >

> As long as you limit the amount of damage you can take from power if multiple targets are hitting you.

most power damage is fine the issue with power strikes over performing is the insane might gen that alot of professions have. You tone the might down and their goes their damage. its not quite the same with conditions right now.

Right now some condition builds perform like power builds while keeping the sustain that running a condition build provides. ITs naturally for condition builds to have more sustain so that the conditions have time to do damage and so that you can survive while waiting for that damage to be done. But for example weaver burn combos melt you like you ate at a power burst combo from a warrior and that should not be a thing in the game.

Your problem condition list seems a bit biased imo.

I find chill a bit hard to understand because its kind of rare outside of necromancer which in itself has had great number of chill nerfs. Really you dont feel chill hurting your mobility unless you are a ele or another necromancer so im troubling to understand that one. Ive ran super invested chill builds against people and only then do they find it annoying and that requires trait rune, and weapon, and utility investment to really drive it home.

Cripple is a bit too common but it kind of has to be if both the chill and cripple conditions also reduced movement skills like they use to i could agree on cutting back cripple durations a bit more but as of right now both chill and cripple are not that big a deals for most professions.

Especially on keep away professions that need conditions like chill and cripple whats also not fun is having a profession with super limited mobility and have someone dance around you because their base speed is greater, they have more evades, or more movement skills in their weapon kit.

Slow, like chill, is pretty rare pretty much only used by chronos which are rare in pvp today. The only other common source of slow is arcane thievery which is sad really i want to see more things in the game actually be able to apply slow where it makes sense that it could.

burning just does too much in general in pvp it needs to be scaled down which no one is going to argue but the problem here might be more so with the counts of burning that can be stacked at one time.

immobile is pretty rare especially in long durations usually only ranger can apply long durations of this and what use to be mesmer with CI i for the most part thing immobe is fine no one has a ton of it anymore aside from ranger with entangle.

What about bleed, torment, and poison?

This is why im starting to think your problem condition list is a bit bias, all conditions are problematic in some way or none of them are in most cases you cant just pick out a few that might bother what you play the most which is what it seems like you might have done.

That said i dont discredit the facts you pointed out and the topic / conversation you want to bring about with your post this is a interesting way of looking at combat and some other games are made where conditions are pretty much almost a non factor but that starts to limit diversity if you cut things back too much or it becomes unfair if you limit it so that only 1 profession is capable of really still working with conditions well while others cannont by almost any means.

What about lowering condition caps in general?

If you want to limit conditions just limit the max caps to a lower number in competitive settings if no damaging condition could stack above 10 counts then that would limit how much condition damage could be done at max at any given time by any given build or profession. Even if application was constant nothing would be stacking about 10 counts which would encourage a min max play style for condition builds to weave in and out from offensive to defensive play styles there would be no reason to over pressure someone at the max condition count by trying to drown them in more condition.

wehlp thats what happens when you 1 button win people with chain cc that hit for 8-12k each. LOL

Wont lie I laughed hard for a solid minute after reading this.

In truth some times being bluntly broken is a bad thing because over nerfs happen as result.

I think they should scale the damage up a bit or put the damage scaling back to what it was and just remove the ability for the cc skills to critically hit. which would effectively limit their max damage too.

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > > > > But this is from a -single- enemy. The shroud lasting long enough for it. Having incomming lifeforce from kills would lenghten it even further.

> > > > > > You can get quite alot i know that at base without the signet on a single enemy you can get 2 guaranteed soul spirals and maybe 3 soul spirals just off of what the auto chain + Reapers onslaught does alone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Basically all im saying as avid user of SoS + Undeath is that i think people are going to "Over estimate" what this patch did to its passive vs what it already could do. Because its not something that was commonly used by any means in most builds by most people. So its easy to look at it from that perspective and think its "kinda wild" when really its not that big of a deal :P

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I think you are missing that we also get a longer uptime on our autoattack, before we have to drop shroud. This is with pve in mind.

> > > >

> > > > Im not at all i understand how you are looking at it but i just look at it differently because i use undeath for different reasons. I use undeath for pretty much pvp / wvw only

> > > >

> > > > in pve its not optimal to sit in shroud longer than the duration of soul barbs (or not too much longer than that) anyways which makes it pointless for pve imo unless you just prefer that play style there will be only a few case situations where its kind optimal to stay in shroud longer than that 10 seconds at least if you follow a dps rotation. Even if you dont follow a rotation in most cases its just generally not good to sit in shroud for the duration it takes you to complete 6 soul spirals.

> > > >

> > > > In pvp its a benefit because it in a way gives you more hit points via shroud meter.

> > >

> > > I said the testing was with fear of death, which gives up soul barbs. For lulz I tried adding blighters boon on top. 7 soul spirals on 1 lifeforce bar, and halfway to 8.

> >

> > IF you get to 10 you get a spectral cookie

>

> Maybe doable with corruptions (Consume Conditions and Epidemic, in that order) and Spectral Walk? I honestly don't know. That's likely to only get you to 8.

if you have alacrity you could probably already get 10 with what he is doing that said im not sure if he is testing in the pvp area or in special forces training area.

Why not just make it shoot faster causing it to technically deal more damage over a fixed period of time

The underwater version still fires like a machine gun compared the the land version

I love your color combos btw

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > > > But this is from a -single- enemy. The shroud lasting long enough for it. Having incomming lifeforce from kills would lenghten it even further.

> > > > You can get quite alot i know that at base without the signet on a single enemy you can get 2 guaranteed soul spirals and maybe 3 soul spirals just off of what the auto chain + Reapers onslaught does alone.

> > > >

> > > > Basically all im saying as avid user of SoS + Undeath is that i think people are going to "Over estimate" what this patch did to its passive vs what it already could do. Because its not something that was commonly used by any means in most builds by most people. So its easy to look at it from that perspective and think its "kinda wild" when really its not that big of a deal :P

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I think you are missing that we also get a longer uptime on our autoattack, before we have to drop shroud. This is with pve in mind.

> >

> > Im not at all i understand how you are looking at it but i just look at it differently because i use undeath for different reasons. I use undeath for pretty much pvp / wvw only

> >

> > in pve its not optimal to sit in shroud longer than the duration of soul barbs (or not too much longer than that) anyways which makes it pointless for pve imo unless you just prefer that play style there will be only a few case situations where its kind optimal to stay in shroud longer than that 10 seconds at least if you follow a dps rotation. Even if you dont follow a rotation in most cases its just generally not good to sit in shroud for the duration it takes you to complete 6 soul spirals.

> >

> > In pvp its a benefit because it in a way gives you more hit points via shroud meter.

>

> I said the testing was with fear of death, which gives up soul barbs. For lulz I tried adding blighters boon on top. 7 soul spirals on 1 lifeforce bar, and halfway to 8.

IF you get to 10 you get a spectral cookie

Summon madness needs to still be somewhere and not replacing golem because golem is still one of the best cc tools fore defiance bars in pve (and i know you know this)

Grim specter on its own i dont think anymore is worth being the elite itself im sorry to say.

Its not good enough for the removal of the damage lich can provide from range with autos or from summon madness burst combos in pve.

IF you are looking at pvp only then perhaps but then i would say just make grim specter its own elite under a different type like a signet or something.

Im not the biggest fan of the current lich form but lets not throw it away and get stuck with a crap skill version of grim specter then cry that we want lich back later you know how anet has been with reworks lately chances are you wont get the version of grim specter that you want or have in mind or even the exact same skill within lich itself while losing lich and summon madness along with it completely.

Till I see that reworks are done with players voices in mind i say leave lich as it is because i dont want to lose my only power based elite for a passive vitality rip that cant be improved via any stats like ferocity as it deals no strike damage.

Sorry to say for now ill take my risk on keeping lich.

No none of these things cause toxicity thats all on the player themselves you choose to be a butt or a bully intentionally. If you choose to play something you know is busted and will likely frustrate someone you make the choice to do that. Even then its not toxic to some people just using the builds or getting kills with said annoying build. But if you decide to talk trash or bully someone with no reasoning via hate whisper them while doing so its not the mechanics its just the person behind the controls.

Dont blame game mechanics for inexcusable behavior and not having common sense.

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> > > But this is from a -single- enemy. The shroud lasting long enough for it. Having incomming lifeforce from kills would lenghten it even further.

> > You can get quite alot i know that at base without the signet on a single enemy you can get 2 guaranteed soul spirals and maybe 3 soul spirals just off of what the auto chain + Reapers onslaught does alone.

> >

> > Basically all im saying as avid user of SoS + Undeath is that i think people are going to "Over estimate" what this patch did to its passive vs what it already could do. Because its not something that was commonly used by any means in most builds by most people. So its easy to look at it from that perspective and think its "kinda wild" when really its not that big of a deal :P

> >

> >

>

> I think you are missing that we also get a longer uptime on our autoattack, before we have to drop shroud. This is with pve in mind.

Im not at all i understand how you are looking at it but i just look at it differently because i use undeath for different reasons. I use undeath for pretty much pvp / wvw only

in pve its not optimal to sit in shroud longer than the duration of soul barbs (or not too much longer than that) anyways which makes it pointless for pve imo unless you just prefer that play style there will be only a few case situations where its kind optimal to stay in shroud longer than that 10 seconds at least if you follow a dps rotation. Even if you dont follow a rotation in most cases its just generally not good to sit in shroud for the duration it takes you to complete 6 soul spirals.

In pvp its a benefit because it in a way gives you more hit points via shroud meter.