ZDragon.3046

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> rangers aren't meant to be warriors either but that's the state the game is in.

 

This is what i was legit thinking.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Overall you removed might lowering its damage potential but didnt give anything back at all as a result so even when others give it might in high counts its not any better off than it was generating its own might. This is a bad design choice so long as other professions can still generate their own boons including might (which many of them can) IF necormancer was like other professions and had a wider range of access to other boons i would maybe agree with toning the might down but removing it completely is out of the question. Removing it completely when necromancer does not have a wide range of high access to boons is REALLY OUT OF THE QUESTION you have lost you mind.

> >

>

> I disagree with you, the change reduce it's solo damage potential, yes, but overall it increase the necromancer damage potential by up to 160 point of power. Which isn't negligible.

>

> NB.: other professions are in dire need of seeing their self might generation tuned down, however, that's a necro thread not another profession's thread.

You are litterally a joke right now if you think firebrand is ok having 25 might while having almost every other boon in the game.

What about rev who also has high might along with a wide range of other boons at any given time.

Why on earth do you feel the need to cut necormancers might completely when they litterally have almost no other boon access. You need to stop your ideas are bad here and poorly implemented. This is why the others who have posted so far dont agree with your changes.

 

ITs fine to want to up necormancers potential when placed into a group but this is not the correct way to do it im sorry but the removal of of might is not up for debate while necormancer holds nothing else boon wise it can claim as its own thing its good at doing. You can keep the 80 and 160 power no one wants that for the loss of all might generation

>

> > Horrible idea for 2 reasons.

> > 1: Boon corruption is a key feature of necromancer there is no point in removing it for simplistic rips. IF you are going to do this then active defense needs more compensation. The conditions that come from corrupts are a part of necromancers conditional defense by removing this aspect you make them directly weaker on all fronts in terms of defense.

>

> Well, most of those boon convertion were added along the years and were initially boon ripping effects. The "flavor" have gone to far. Also I'm not removing all boon convertion effects since it remain the job of _well of corruption_ and _boon corruption_. A necromancer don't really rely on the hypothetic corruption of an hypothetic boon on it's target for it's survivability. Let's be honest, you're not looking at your opponent's boons to verify that he got the boons you want to corrupt in order to increase your survivability before using a boon convertion ability.

At the same time remember that conditions use to be stronger. Chill and cripple use to be stronger.

Just leave them alone tbh. If boon application goes down then boon corruption can go down but removing this mechanic or even replacing the most common corrupts for pure rips is also not up for debate without compensation for the reasons i said. Conditions are a factor of defense and boon corruption makes up a part of that.

 

> > 2: Although you tried to address boon rips in pve with the path of corruption change you forgot one critical thing. Most bosses or mobs in general in pve dont have boons. You went about this in a way that ideally means nothing you could have listed out every corrupt and gave it a bonus effect when used on a target with no boons bust instead which would be much well deserved quality changes fore necromancers in general.

> > For example

> > Corrupt boon now inflicts 5 stacks of poison on a foe when they have no boons.

> > Unholy feast now always triggers unholy burst if stuck foes have no boons.

> >

>

> Most bosses have a defiance bar, the one that don't, I don't see it an issue that it doesn't do anything to them. As for the mobs, it's not "needed" either. What you suggest is a lot more dangerous balance wise than what I suggest, it's sure to backfire in sPvP/WvW because ANet do not split mechanisms (whether we want it or not).

Damage being done to defiance bars is for CC not boon removal especially when most bosses still wont generate boons. Which is still a limiting factor which wont do anything against normal mobs who also dont have boons. Even if we ignore the need for a boss or champion to have boons as necromancers we already have strong tools for busting defiance bars we have strong cc skills in our kits and strong conditions like chill also. Why would we need more damage specificity for defiance bars. (we dont)

In s pvp and wvw bonus effects would rarely trigger as much as boons are always self applied by most professions meaning its extremely rare you would get such a thing your ideas ruin the balance just as much by removing corruptions you lower conditional defense if we cant agree here lets just agree to not change anything. I think anet reworking things thus far has a better chance of getting something done right better than what you have suggested so far.

>

> > > **Chapter 3: Death magic**

> > >

> > > The main issue of the traitline is that it's effects/mechanisms are all over the place. Minions traits can't work properly without a baseline generation of minions while _Death carapace_ give imbalanced values to the different traits. Thanksfully, shuffling a bit the differents effects can fix everything while keeping the goal of the traitline.

> > >

> > > Minor:

> > > - _Armor shroud_ would need to be replaced by _Flesh of the master:_ gain carapace for each minion you control. Summon a _jagged horror_ whenever you gain life force (ICD 4-5s, maximum 5 jagged horror).

> > Armored shroud should be default dont put minion traits as minors you cant opt not to choose when most builds wont use minions W T EFF???? Thats a horrid design choice.

>

> So for you, a baseline generation of minion for a traitline that deal with minions is "horrid design". An "horrid design" is a traitline that give you 3 minions traits and no baseline generation of minions (yes, what we got right now). What I suggest give the necromancer a sure way to build 10 carapace stacks as the fight goes on.

Yes if you want to use the line but not use minions then yes. As for the 10 stacks Necromancer can already do this in competitive modes with just shrouded removal without insanity that is your changes. Literally the only change you should apply to the carapace system is moving C Fervor to a minor slot. Alot of the rest is very unnecessary.

>

> > > - _Soul comprehension_ would need to be replaced by _infuse condition:_ Transfer conditions on you to your minions. Gain carapace whenever that happen.

> > This is a bad choice for the same reasion every build that wont use a minion now has a trait they cant opt not to choose that wont do anything should they not use minions. Bad design choices.

>

> It doesn't need to use minions, you summon them automatically thanks to your first minor. In other word, taking death magic make you summon up to 5 minions without any other investment. It's an 100% better choice than having to invest in taking minion to be able to use the current _flesh of the master_ and _necromantic corruption_.

People wont use flesh of the master in competitive modes though (realisticly) and if you use flesh of the mast in pve you dont need to have minions constantly being re-summoned for you as minions dont die in 2 slaps in pve. Its not a 100% better choice if i just want increased armor and conditional removal which also gets me a similar number of stacks to what your changes suggest without being dependent on the survival of AI creatures that we know cant take a single hit in competitive modes.

>

> > > - _Beyond the veil_ would need to be replaced by _Corruptor fervor:_ Inflicting a condition on a foe grant carapace.

> > This is **an ok change** C Fervor should actually be a minor so yes this is the one thing you got right

>

> Glad you're "Ok" with it.

This is literally the only change that needs to happen to the whole Stacking system from a mechanical standpoint so that the grandmasters are opened up.

>

> > >

> > > Adept:

> > > - _Flesh of the master_ is replaced by _Armored shroud_.

> > > - _Putrid defense:_ no change.

> > > - _Shrouded removal:_ no change.

> > >

> > > Master:

> > > - _Necromantic corruption_ is replaced by _Soul comprehension:_ Carapace also grant vitality (10). Carapace last longer.

> > The vitality part should just be the minor of the current Soul Comp in general. Carapace lasting longer could be a optional thing when combined with something else.

>

> Well, no. Improving death carapace via a minor would be bad design. The direction in which you improve carapace should be up to your choice not up to the only source of carapace you have: the death magic minor traitline.

 

This is fine but i still dont like the change of the minors you have done here in general which makes me feel some kind of way about the rest of the changes in the line too.

 

>

> > > - _Dark defiance:_ _Flesh of the master_ now summon _shambling horror_ . If you are disabled summon a _shambling horror_.

> > This is a pointless change

>

> Well, the goal was to free the line from the protection's generation. I happen to do it with a "smart" twist.

 

Why not just add direct % damage reduction then. You removed another boon so at this point necromancer is limited to minor swiftness and a minor protection if you run blood magic, minor fury if you run curses. No might generation. I mean at this point i would think you aim is to just make necro boonless.

 

> > > - _Corruptor fervor_ replaced by _Beyond the veil:_ take reduced condition damage and gain life force every 3 seconds based on the carapace treshold. (10 carapaces: 10% condi damage reduction and 0.5% LF. 25 carapaces: 20% condition damage reduction and 1% LF)

> > This trait is still doing so much that you are practically forcing people to take it to be honest with you, you shouldn't have moved the condition damage reduction away from dark defiance I dont understand that change.

>

> Is it? Would you objectively take 20% condition damage reduction and 1% life force every 3 seconds over the ability to prevent a deadly hit or deal more damage via poison? I think the 3 grand master are a lot closer than the godly prema prot you gain from the current corruptor fervor.

 

Considering the poision damage is linked to AI use and that preventing a deadly hit is still limited by lackluster sustain, mobility etc yeah i probably would see the middle option as still much more enticing for general use. Imo the damage reduction from dark defiance should not have been moved and 1% life force is literally nothing here ideally you could have done something better in general.

 

>

> > > **Chapter 4: Blood magic**

> > You ignored like everything else that could be better with blood magic why? Or did we forget about the grand master that currently boast more risk than reward and two vampiric traits that are limited by healing power despite that they are suppose to have a life stealing effect which should ideally be based on damage done (for at least one of them)

>

> Yes. I'll fight you again on this point, but I do think that having healing effects affected by healing power is good design and open room for specialization instead of created "pure damage dealer with great sustain". I know that you disagree with my point of view on this with argument based on what other professions do, but for me other professions allowing bad design doesn't mean that a proper necromancer traitline should do the same.

 

But its not a raw healing effect its meant to be a life stealing effect not just flat healing. Thats the issue i have with this. Not to mention there are proper ways to limit this kind of sustain so that its not busted other than by over limiting it with something like healing power. Literally could be heal based on damage done and make it say no single strike can exceed (x)% of maximum hp. Not only is this method of healing limited by your ability to attack its also limited to a max amount it can give back in any single strike. How ever purely limiting it on healing power is silly. We dont need 2 traits in this line that do this one of them can literally be changed.

>

> > >

> > > **Chapter 5: Soul reaping**

> > >

> > > This is an equally short chapter. The main issue of the traitline are the traits that proc on the use of shroud#1. These traits are horribly imbalanced and create disparities that are hard to balance with each e-spec.

> > > - _Unyielding blast_ changed to: Convert condition (2) on you whenever you enter shroud.

> > This trait now thematically makes no sense you changed something just for the sake of changing something if you wont to cure conditions into boons change shrouded removal in death magic as the line is committed to self sustain and defense.

> > > - _Dhuumfire_ changed to _Death aura:_ Upon entering shroud, blast the area around you (Core: drain life, Reaper: chill, Scourge: burn) and gain an aura based on your specialization. (Core: dark aura, Reaper: frost aura, Scourge: fire aura)

> > This is a neat idea but ideall you could have used this idea for Unyielding blast and it would have made more sense there than it does here. Dhuumfire should have been changed to deal different stack counts based on what elite its used with but you didnt need to remove it. your idea here is good just put it in Unyielding blast spot not Dhummfires.

>

> Well, I do agree with you except for the part on dhuumfire remaining as is. Having this trait applying burn on an auto attack is bad design and really need to be removed from the game. _Unyielding blast_ should probably blast the area based on your specialization when entering shroud. As for _dhuumfire_, it should probably grant an aura based on your specialization and give some bonus while under the effect of an aura or have auras on the necromancer last longer.

I still dont agree dhuumfire is fine only core needs a stack count increase, they way it is on reaper right now is fine, the wya it is on scourge right now is fine. I personally would never use the trait if it only gave me an aura thats too pointless. and is limited to shroud activation which makes it arguably worse especially for scourge. To be frank with you Dhuumfire might be fine with other professions get their conditions nerfed down to proper levels so i further see no reason to remove it.

>

> > >

> > >

> > > **Chapter 6: Utilities**

> > >

> > > Let's beat up a bit of sense in some of the necromancer's utilities:

> > > - _Epidemic:_ Changed to now copy conditions on the caster to it's targeted ennemy and up to 5 foes around this ennemy. Self-ailment happen before the conditions are copied.

> > Horrible idea. You made it ok for pvp (possibly) but ruined it for pve and wvw so i dislike the change. Ideally if you wanted this idea you should have just given it to plauge signet and called it an out right buff.

>

> Yes it hurt the aoe performances of the skill, this is on purpose. The trade off is that it make the skill better against a single target. In PvE it make the necromancer less effective at getting rid of adds, but it also allow the necromancer to double the conditions that he send back from himself built via corruptions. In other word it increase the condi necromancer's single target dps. This is the only way to really balance this skill. It won't impact WvW or sPvP that much.

But it wont though

It makes the skill better only for pvp and wvw purpose when you have alot of conditions on you.

In pve its litterally as good as it gets right now but if it throws conditions on you (which in high amounts is going to be almost never due to friendly clenses and self rotation xfers) there is no point to doing what you want to do to this skill outside of anything other than spvp use and wvw use.

>

> > > - _Putrid explosion:_ Make the bone minion which is the closest to the caster's target explode.

> > Pointless changes minions are bad

> > > - _Bone fiend:_ No longer cripple on hit.

> > > - _Rigor mortis:_ Now a 100% projectile finisher. No longer immobilize it's target but cripple it for 5s per hit. CD reduced to 20 seconds.

> > Pointless changes minions are bad, if you want to make this one better make its projectiles fly straight and at a higher velocity. That alone would at least increase its rate of hitting a target thats not an AI.

> > Lol so you are just nerffing a minion that thats not used like why i cant understand this.

>

> It's because minion are bad that they need QoL. Technically it's not nerfing Bone fiend since the cripple from this minion is hardly felt, the goal is to make _Rigor mortis_ more accessible by reducing it's CD.

So just reduce the CD and leave the immobilize on it. or have you not seen what other professions can do with low cd shorter duration immobilizes you literally nerfed it for more cripple which should already be applied from various other sources of your own skills. This is litterally just nerfing (on something thats hardly used no less) im sorry you missed the mark here.

>

> > > - _Plague signet:_ Passive: reduce incoming condition damage taken by 10% (15% traited).

> > Xfer a condition to a foe you strike every x seconds make the passive match the active.

>

> That would make the passive and the active redundant. The logic behind my suggestion is that by taking less damage from condition thanks to the passive you allow more condition on yourself before sending them back to your opponent.

It only sends a max of 3 conditions the idea of trying to take more before sending back is a bit silly it would be smarter if the passive allowed you to occasionally throw some back as the fight went on allowing you to save and use it for condition burst defensively not trying to save up for direct offensive use, not to mention death magic's job is condition damage reduction.

>

> > >

> > >

> > > **Chapter 7: Reaper**

> > >

> > > Let's save it's PvE condi damage and make up for the loss of might generation.

> > > - _Chilling nova:_ ICD reduced to 4 seconds (PvE only)

> > > - _Blighter's boon_ changed to _Blight:_ Gain life force whenever you apply vulnerability. If you are in reaper's shroud, gain health instead.

> > Bad change you removed one of the most active a vulnerability application traits and made this depend far too much on the spite minor you made. You effectively made this trait more passive than active by doing the spite changes.

> >

> > What needs to change here is not blighters boon.

>

> It need change since I removed might generation from spite... Wait does it mean that blighter boon was more efficient with spite? That said I do agree that there is a lot more vuln generation via spite than there is might generation, which would most likely make my suggestion OP.

Thats not what im saying what im saying is that blighters boon (which now also thematically is not fitting) will work off passive minors for the most part as you removed the only direct active source of vuln application out side of axe autos which was Unyielding blast. Generally it was a bad choice on your part to remove the might in the first place. That was a bad way to start off any changes for a class who is mostly only good at generating that 1 boon.

>

> That said I liked your "more passive" joke, it was entertaining.

 

I was not joking

**Siphoned power changed to Rending shroud: Pulse vulnerability (8s) around you every second while in shroud.**

^ ultra passive when combined with blighters boon you litterally just need to press shroud and stand there and not use a single skill to trigger the BB activation i dont know how much more passive you get than this.

 

> > What needs to change is Reapers Onslaught.

> > 1: Reapers base attack speeds have increased by 25% QoL change (cast times have been cut by 25% on all the reaper skills basically)

> > 2: RO now adds and additional 10% attack speed bonus in addition to its ferocity bonus, The quickness has been removed from RO

> >

> > Reaper has a better attacking speed in general now which opens up all 3 grandmasters again including blighters boon and when given quickness by allies it has a better top end in group play.

> >

>

> Maybe or maybe not. From my point of view there is an overall necessity to make the out of shroud dps closer to the in shroud dps. Having the ferocity bonus applied in and out of shroud at the expense of having the quickness lost would be the direction that I'd prefer this trait to go. (But you wouldn't agree to this I think.)

No because base reaper attack speed is a joke from 4 years ago and one of the biggest complaints about reaper which is how it got the quickness in the first place. You have low mobility and get into melee range in competitive modes and cant deal damage because your attacks are swamp water slow. You are not a threat as people out damage your slow attacks making it more risk outweighs the reward for getting close with no way out and limited mobility way too unbalanced.

 

While i do agree all traits that grant damage bonus in shroud only should likely follow the design of soul barbs or soul eater the alternative is to do a 50/50 split 150 out that doubles to 300 when in shroud. But that does not answer for the attack speed issue that should not be ignored.

>

> > > Barrier is a mechanism that is too strong due to the fact that it stack. This need to be changed.

> > > - Barrier: No longer stack. Barrier gain increased duration whenever an amount of barrier inferior or equal to the current barrier is acquiered. An higher amount of incoming barrier will replace the barrier on you.

> > > - Adjust barrier number and scaling with healing power accordingly.

> > Correction barrier is too strong in WvW because it stacks and not an issue in other game modes hold your high horses on this one.

>

> Barrier stacking is an issue. Whether it's in WvW or in other gamemode this stacking ability truly give to much survivability. It's like having aegis stacking on each other.

>

I dont see complaints about barrier in pvp or pve only in wvw. So what does this mean?

 

> > > - _Desert shroud_ effects changed to: Allies inside the area of effect take 15% less damage from all damage source (power and condi), do not stack. CD back to 20 seconds in all gamemodes.

> > This is too situational if its going to have 0 offensive power at all then its going to need more utility than this.

>

> It's half a prot damage reduction, with it's own bonus from minor traits the scourge gain almost a full prot's damage reduction. If you add on top the 5k barrier on use it's very decent as a personal defensive skill.

Yes but it does nothing to keep someone from running over your face and this is still not better than shroud reduction if you do it this way at this point just remove all shade skills and put them under an f1 button if you are going to do this.

>

> > > - _Herald of sorrow_ effects changed to: Successful projectile and whirl combo finishers apply torment (5s) on foe.

> > > - _Demonic lore_ effects changed to: shades proc a whril finisher whenever you use a shade skill (F2, F3, F4, F5). Torment deal 33% more damage. _This basically mean that with 3 shade up, you got the possibility to do 3 combo whirl with each shade skill use._

> > This would be cool if necro had access to alot of strong combo fields to use but they dont so this design is kind of bad. There is near 0 potential for self use out side of wells for the most part.

>

> Why would necro need a lot of strong combo fields to use? Paired with _herald of sorrow_ you'll apply torment on top of any effect the combo field give you anyway. In a dark field if you got 3 shade you'll siphon 3 time 200 point of health for more than 600 point of damage on top of 3 torment stacks. The point is more that in an environment overflowing with fields (raids/WvW) you'll always apply those stack of torment on top of the various effects of the different fields.

I mean if you didnt utterly destroy personal dps all over the place i might agree but because thats exactly what you did with the rest of your changes i cant agree to this. You removed most sources of damage what does the torment increase even matter at this point. Who cares about finishers when you cant even combo them yourself. IF you are going to make finishers there should at less be some self combo use within the scourge kit alone and there just wont be any makiing the weight you used in this trait for combo finishers a bit wasted for personal use.

 

>

> > > - _Punishment_ skills boon convertion effect now also proc on defiance bar.

> > Pointless change

> > Just make the skills apply more torment or give you more life force when used on a foe who has no boons. (this will almost only ever trigger bonus effects in pve as foes in pvp are almost always dripping in boons it should be rare to get the bonus triggers)

>

> Again, the goal is to make it proc on some boss/champion not make it OP for WvW/sPvP by making it proc on foes that have no boons. You're suggesting powercreep when I just want it to proc on mobs that have defiance. Defiance is effectively permanent stacks of stability, there is a need for boon converting/ripping effect to have an effect on it.

it wont be op in these modes for reason i already explained bonuses will or should rarely trigger in modes where players run around dripping in boons. Your design ideas here are bad im sorry to tell you this.

 

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> **Introduction:**

>

> The necromancer have great mechanisms on the paper but the way they are implemented turn them into a mess. Most issues come from the traitlines, this thread is my end-of-year take at fixing this mess.

>

> **Chapter 1: Spite and might generation.**

>

> Spite isn't a bad traitline per se, there are some traits that are hardly competitive like _chill of death_ or _dread_ but the main issue of the traitline is it's might generation. The traitline is designed around the idea of getting stronger as the fight last and use might as a way to achieve this goal. This was a great design and if all profession had this same design it would have been perfect, however, it's not the case and it create for the necromancer an overreliance on might for it's own DPS resulting in a easy to achieve but lower maximum damage potential.

>

> Two traits need to change for the traitline to be healthy:

> - _Reaper's might:_ gain power (80) and additional power while in shroud (80).

This is a bad change unless you plan to remove might generation from every profession no.. in case you forgot necormancer is limited in the boon department and might just so happens to be the 1 boon is good at generating (and it still does not generate it as fast as other professions do) the only thing you got right here is that it does not have an out of shroud effect but your idea here is too weak.

> - _Siphoned power_ changed to _Rending shroud:_ Pulse vulnerability (8s) around you every second while in shroud.

This is a pointless change and all you did was remove more might unlike the previous trait listed this one does work both in and out of shroud ideally you made this trait worse.

>

 

Overall you removed might lowering its damage potential but didnt give anything back at all as a result so even when others give it might in high counts its not any better off than it was generating its own might. This is a bad design choice so long as other professions can still generate their own boons including might (which many of them can) IF necormancer was like other professions and had a wider range of access to other boons i would maybe agree with toning the might down but removing it completely is out of the question. Removing it completely when necromancer does not have a wide range of high access to boons is REALLY OUT OF THE QUESTION you have lost you mind.

 

>

> **Chapter 2: Curse and boon convertion**

>

> First thing off, there is a need to adjust some trait for PvE in this traitline:

> - _Barbed precision_ need to see it's bleed base duration increased to 5 second in PvE only.

> - _Chilling darkness_ need to see it's ICD reduced to 1 second in PvE only.

ok but you still could have done this better.

Barbed Precision should have its 33% chance on crit turned into a 100% chance on crit and give it a 1s ICD or possibly even no icd the only bad thing about barbed.P. is that its ruined by 2 rng effects first is your own crit chance then another lower percentage that only has a chance to trigger if you land a crit. Its outdated when you look at other triats on other professions that use to have something similar.

 

> Now on the topic of boon convertion, which will be the controversial part of this chapter. There is a need to reduce base boon convertion effect on the necromancer at the benefit of boon ripping. To this end, there is a need to first change all boon convertion effects on weapon skills into boon ripping effects and then make _Path of corruption_ apply a condition specific to the necromancer's specialization to a successful boon ripped. (Yes this is a flat nerf of the necromancer but it is a necessary nerf)

> - _Unholy feast, Dark pact, Feast of corruption, Enfeebling blood_ and _Nightfall_ no longer convert boon but rip boons instead.

> - _Dark path_ now rip 2 boons baseline.

> - _Death charge_ now rip 1 boon baseline.

> - _Path of corruption_ changed to: Boon ripping deal damage to the defiance bar. Ripping a boon/defiance bar apply a condition based on your specialization (Core: poison 4s, Reaper: chill 0.5s, scourge: torment 8s).

 

Horrible idea for 2 reasons.

1: Boon corruption is a key feature of necromancer there is no point in removing it for simplistic rips. IF you are going to do this then active defense needs more compensation. The conditions that come from corrupts are a part of necromancers conditional defense by removing this aspect you make them directly weaker on all fronts in terms of defense.

2: Although you tried to address boon rips in pve with the path of corruption change you forgot one critical thing. Most bosses or mobs in general in pve dont have boons. You went about this in a way that ideally means nothing you could have listed out every corrupt and gave it a bonus effect when used on a target with no boons bust instead which would be much well deserved quality changes fore necromancers in general.

For example

Corrupt boon now inflicts 5 stacks of poison on a foe when they have no boons.

Unholy feast now always triggers unholy burst if stuck foes have no boons.

 

>

>

> **Chapter 3: Death magic**

>

> The main issue of the traitline is that it's effects/mechanisms are all over the place. Minions traits can't work properly without a baseline generation of minions while _Death carapace_ give imbalanced values to the different traits. Thanksfully, shuffling a bit the differents effects can fix everything while keeping the goal of the traitline.

>

> Minor:

> - _Armor shroud_ would need to be replaced by _Flesh of the master:_ gain carapace for each minion you control. Summon a _jagged horror_ whenever you gain life force (ICD 4-5s, maximum 5 jagged horror).

Armored shroud should be default dont put minion traits as minors you cant opt not to choose when most builds wont use minions W T EFF???? Thats a horrid design choice.

> - _Soul comprehension_ would need to be replaced by _infuse condition:_ Transfer conditions on you to your minions. Gain carapace whenever that happen.

This is a bad choice for the same reasion every build that wont use a minion now has a trait they cant opt not to choose that wont do anything should they not use minions. Bad design choices.

> - _Beyond the veil_ would need to be replaced by _Corruptor fervor:_ Inflicting a condition on a foe grant carapace.

This is **an ok change** C Fervor should actually be a minor so yes this is the one thing you got right

>

> Adept:

> - _Flesh of the master_ is replaced by _Armored shroud_.

> - _Putrid defense:_ no change.

> - _Shrouded removal:_ no change.

>

> Master:

> - _Necromantic corruption_ is replaced by _Soul comprehension:_ Carapace also grant vitality (10). Carapace last longer.

The vitality part should just be the minor of the current Soul Comp in general. Carapace lasting longer could be a optional thing when combined with something else.

> - _Dark defiance:_ _Flesh of the master_ now summon _shambling horror_ . If you are disabled summon a _shambling horror_.

This is a pointless change

> - _Deadly strength:_ Carapace also grant power (10). Minions deal 25% more damage.

>

> Grandmaster:

> - _Death nova:_ When you or one of your minion is downed create a poison nova. Using a minion's active skill create a poison nova at the necromancer's position.

Not too bad of an idea. But not all that good.

> - _Corruptor fervor_ replaced by _Beyond the veil:_ take reduced condition damage and gain life force every 3 seconds based on the carapace treshold. (10 carapaces: 10% condi damage reduction and 0.5% LF. 25 carapaces: 20% condition damage reduction and 1% LF)

This trait is still doing so much that you are practically forcing people to take it to be honest with you, you shouldn't have moved the condition damage reduction away from dark defiance I dont understand that change.

> - _Unholy sanctuary:_ (I don't like this trait but...) no change.

>

>

> **Chapter 4: Blood magic**

>

> A very short chapter only bringing the _mark of blood_ from _mark of evasion_ in line with the original mark in both CD and damage.

> - _Mark of evasion:_ ICD reduced to 4s. Damage increased.

This is just power creep with a damage increase but i mean ok. If the mark itself was more effective in general then this trait wouldnt need changes to start with. But SaFfiSFiNE according to people so its whatever.

 

You ignored like everything else that could be better with blood magic why? Or did we forget about the grand master that currently boast more risk than reward and two vampiric traits that are limited by healing power despite that they are suppose to have a life stealing effect which should ideally be based on damage done (for at least one of them)

>

> **Chapter 5: Soul reaping**

>

> This is an equally short chapter. The main issue of the traitline are the traits that proc on the use of shroud#1. These traits are horribly imbalanced and create disparities that are hard to balance with each e-spec.

> - _Unyielding blast_ changed to: Convert condition (2) on you whenever you enter shroud.

This trait now thematically makes no sense you changed something just for the sake of changing something if you wont to cure conditions into boons change shrouded removal in death magic as the line is committed to self sustain and defense.

> - _Dhuumfire_ changed to _Death aura:_ Upon entering shroud, blast the area around you (Core: drain life, Reaper: chill, Scourge: burn) and gain an aura based on your specialization. (Core: dark aura, Reaper: frost aura, Scourge: fire aura)

This is a neat idea but ideall you could have used this idea for Unyielding blast and it would have made more sense there than it does here. Dhuumfire should have been changed to deal different stack counts based on what elite its used with but you didnt need to remove it. your idea here is good just put it in Unyielding blast spot not Dhummfires.

>

>

> **Chapter 6: Utilities**

>

> Let's beat up a bit of sense in some of the necromancer's utilities:

> - _Epidemic:_ Changed to now copy conditions on the caster to it's targeted ennemy and up to 5 foes around this ennemy. Self-ailment happen before the conditions are copied.

Horrible idea. You made it ok for pvp (possibly) but ruined it for pve and wvw so i dislike the change. Ideally if you wanted this idea you should have just given it to plauge signet and called it an out right buff.

> - _Putrid explosion:_ Make the bone minion which is the closest to the caster's target explode.

Pointless changes minions are bad

> - _Bone fiend:_ No longer cripple on hit.

> - _Rigor mortis:_ Now a 100% projectile finisher. No longer immobilize it's target but cripple it for 5s per hit. CD reduced to 20 seconds.

Pointless changes minions are bad, if you want to make this one better make its projectiles fly straight and at a higher velocity. That alone would at least increase its rate of hitting a target thats not an AI.

Lol so you are just nerffing a minion that thats not used like why i cant understand this.

> - _Plague signet:_ Passive: reduce incoming condition damage taken by 10% (15% traited).

Xfer a condition to a foe you strike every x seconds make the passive match the active.

>

>

> **Chapter 7: Reaper**

>

> Let's save it's PvE condi damage and make up for the loss of might generation.

> - _Chilling nova:_ ICD reduced to 4 seconds (PvE only)

> - _Blighter's boon_ changed to _Blight:_ Gain life force whenever you apply vulnerability. If you are in reaper's shroud, gain health instead.

Bad change you removed one of the most active a vulnerability application traits and made this depend far too much on the spite minor you made. You effectively made this trait more passive than active by doing the spite changes.

 

What needs to change here is not blighters boon.

What needs to change is Reapers Onslaught.

1: Reapers base attack speeds have increased by 25% QoL change (cast times have been cut by 25% on all the reaper skills basically)

2: RO now adds and additional 10% attack speed bonus in addition to its ferocity bonus, The quickness has been removed from RO

 

Reaper has a better attacking speed in general now which opens up all 3 grandmasters again including blighters boon and when given quickness by allies it has a better top end in group play.

 

>

>

> **Chapter 8: Scourge**

>

> Scourge is a big chapter, which tell how bad it's shape is right now. 3 issues need to be addressed: barrier, area denial powercreep and... the mess of the different dandaid fix that were put on it. While DM could be fixed by shuffling a bit the different effects, unfortunately Scourge need a lot of true changes and undone nerfs for the sake of making the proper nerfs.

>

> Barrier is a mechanism that is too strong due to the fact that it stack. This need to be changed.

> - Barrier: No longer stack. Barrier gain increased duration whenever an amount of barrier inferior or equal to the current barrier is acquiered. An higher amount of incoming barrier will replace the barrier on you.

> - Adjust barrier number and scaling with healing power accordingly.

Correction barrier is too strong in WvW because it stacks and not an issue in other game modes hold your high horses on this one.

>

> Area denial powercreep or the shade mechanism. ANet need to understand that the issue is the "denial" not the "area":

> - F2, F3, F4, F5 no longer proc _manifest sand shade.

> - F2, F3, F4, F5 now apply their effect around both the user and the shade.

Ok this is fine.

> - _Desert shroud_ effects changed to: Allies inside the area of effect take 15% less damage from all damage source (power and condi), do not stack. CD back to 20 seconds in all gamemodes.

This is too situational if its going to have 0 offensive power at all then its going to need more utility than this.

> - _Herald of sorrow_ effects changed to: Successful projectile and whirl combo finishers apply torment (5s) on foe.

> - _Demonic lore_ effects changed to: shades proc a whril finisher whenever you use a shade skill (F2, F3, F4, F5). Torment deal 33% more damage. _This basically mean that with 3 shade up, you got the possibility to do 3 combo whirl with each shade skill use._

This would be cool if necro had access to alot of strong combo fields to use but they dont so this design is kind of bad. There is near 0 potential for self use out side of wells for the most part.

> - _Punishment_ skills boon convertion effect now also proc on defiance bar.

Pointless change

Just make the skills apply more torment or give you more life force when used on a foe who has no boons. (this will almost only ever trigger bonus effects in pve as foes in pvp are almost always dripping in boons it should be rare to get the bonus triggers)

>

>

> **Conclusion:**

>

> The list isn't exhaustive and don't fix everything on the necromancer, but at least it address the most urgent issues.

 

This list makes more issues than its solves note how you ripped away the 1 boon necro is good at

 

 

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > Necromancer Profession is -grandfathered-rooted...elder in Guild Wars, we deserve to be valued and feel worthy instead of being pushed around and being at the mercy of others

> >

> > This prob wont ever change tbh

> > Thief has the advantage over necro in most (if not every) build match up no matter how you look at it.

> > Necro is also one of the few professions where spamming pistolwhip can instantly screw them over because they only have 2 dodges, no extra evade or i frames, and chase potential when thief uses sword 2 to get away is not good because low mobility. Its probably the only profession thats just a free kill **(assuming the thief has any exp)**

> >

> > Its also one of the few professions where you cant just walk away from pistolwhip spam because of the low mobility. PW's hit box is bigger than people give it credit for trust me ive tried "walking away from it" and it almost never works if you just walk you will get hit by at least 2 pistol-whips possibly 3. As i said 2 pages back **feels bad man** but im not suggesting anything ill just let anet handle it.

> >

> > The game in general is just sick in terms of how pvp is played right now and im ready for anet to rework it as a whole with the big patch not these small balance changes that just encourage people to play whats busted or cheese at the moment.

> >

>

> **+10**

>

> ZDragon, i completely agree with you and i also do want a complete rework for Necromancer Profession: we deserve it.

 

I dont think necromancer needs a total rework it just needs a few missing tools and QoL changes to make its ideal as a damage soaker and not a damage evader work properly. With some of the changes Cal spoke on in the recent stream what gets done to other professions might make necromancer more viable assuming its does not get overly nerfed at the same time others get their nerfs.

 

I would be fine being limited to 2 dodges if damage soaking was closer to being equally effective as avoiding the damage or blocking the damage but the gap between those styles of defense is a bit too wide right now and some tools are just missing or under developed to keep up with the damage that can come out of even a single player right now.

 

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> So many people playing this build in ranked lol.

>

> Sadly, until the population gets used to fighting this build I’m sure we will see a lot of double PW thieves.

 

In truth its immediate counters are very limited the only way to counter it is to simply avoid and evade it out and wait for the tail end of the animation which gives the user the power role to sort of speak. Its the next safe thing behind the condi builds people got use to running before that got nerfed hard.

 

The only thing that actively counters it is retaliation and shocking aura (or any other aura that applies its effects through evade frames) So thats probably why the community is a bit upset about it. Unless you are a guardian or a tempest you dont have active counters to Pistolwhip. You have to passively counter it by waiting around it and with the damage that goes out in this game thats not always something you can afford to do.

condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> Necromancer Profession is -grandfathered-rooted...elder in Guild Wars, we deserve to be valued and feel worthy instead of being pushed around and being at the mercy of others

 

This prob wont ever change tbh

Thief has the advantage over necro in most (if not every) build match up no matter how you look at it.

Necro is also one of the few professions where spamming pistolwhip can instantly screw them over because they only have 2 dodges, no extra evade or i frames, and chase potential when thief uses sword 2 to get away is not good because low mobility. Its probably the only profession thats just a free kill **(assuming the thief has any exp)**

 

Its also one of the few professions where you cant just walk away from pistolwhip spam because of the low mobility. PW's hit box is bigger than people give it credit for trust me ive tried "walking away from it" and it almost never works if you just walk you will get hit by at least 2 pistol-whips possibly 3. As i said 2 pages back **feels bad man** but im not suggesting anything ill just let anet handle it.

 

The game in general is just sick in terms of how pvp is played right now and im ready for anet to rework it as a whole with the big patch not these small balance changes that just encourage people to play whats busted or cheese at the moment.

 

@"Lily.1935"

I never thought about the idea of Asura coffee shops but something about it seems accurately fitting.

Asura brand Coffee!

Asura brand Wine for those late nights of study.

 

"Necromancers would more likely prefer to work in sterile environments and seek to wash themselves almost obsessively."

I BET YOU ARE NOT WRONG HERE! Mental images of charr violently trying to shampoo all that fur with that facial expression that says "Not Again!"

 

Also Fresh Soil (i hope you mean dirt/earth) can smell really good depending on where you live especially after a light rain xD

 

 

Why guardians dont need buffs the core profession is already one of the strongest in the game as it is its nearly perfectly weighted every strength having a equal quickness to how you build it. To buff core aspects of guardians more than this would offset that.

 

The only change i agree without out of all of this is

Shelter: This skill is now a Consecration.

 

That should be a thing because i dont like uncategorized skill types.

 

Everything else just dont unless you want some considerably harder nerfs making them worse than they are currently 4 months later.

Wurm is ok but dont take golem if you have the option not to. Especially if running reaper or scourge use chill to the bone or ghastly breech. Technically speaking even Lich and P.Lands offer better options than golem right now.

 

Golem is an elite but an AI that dies in a few hits from anything.

You will never land its hardest hitting part of the charge on a enemy player

For an elite the knockdown its low duration.

The moment you summon it you either use it or lose it

 

Deathmagic wont negate direct focus regardless of how big or small the fight is once someone really starts to focus you in a fight you are gonna die unless one of two things happens.

1 Your foes make too many mistakes allowing you to punish them. (boon corrupts, fears, etc)

2 Your team watches your back and peels or supports for you.

 

Generally speaking dont take death-magic unless you are planning on going in as core necromancer other wise the loss is not worth the gain.

As reaper any form of damage loss means you lose your threatening presence in melee range which is your best defense in the meta right now.

As scourge you give up shade skill recharge or you give up damage you are just a walking player with visuals happening around you.

 

Keep in mind with the mini game they added to Death magic if you opt to take C.Fervor its still dependent on your ability to attack. This means if you are cc'ed alot you are just as worse off as if you had not taken death magic to start with. Shrouded removal can help you avoid this to some extent but still.

 

The last reason way death magic is kind of iffy is because its all based around toughness and has no physical % reduction when it comes to damage, it adds no boons to necromancer like vigor or stability. Ideally it just does nothing other than bonus toughness. The value of toughness questionable right now because damage in general is just too high. When anet scales back damage and boons a bit deathmagic might be more viable as a real means of necormancer sustain and defense. Only at that time will necormancer be able to once again depend on its damage soaker play style.

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> First of all, pve is irrelevant in terms of balancing. When I talk about balancing then I talk about the competitive game modes.

 

Its not when you speak on messing with a weapons skills. Because a change like that changes the weapon in all 3 game modes its perfectly fine to rope pve into the picture even if the changes are by far less impactful on that mode.

 

> Besides that, in pve condi reaper stacks 20 bleeds in 2 seconds and has an upkeep of 5 stacks of burn in shroud.

 

This is nothing tbh or have you not seen like any other condition build like literally any other modern condition build. 20 bleeds is nothing and holding 5 burn is also nothing not to mention you cant continue to hold your bleeds if you opt to hold the burn.

 

> Scourge is a support spec. It's not meant to be played as top dps necro spec. That's the role of reaper which is more selfish and melee range.

Welp thats not how it is right now so we cant ignore that. Fact is anet is bad at building supports and forcing them to support not a single support that they have developed as an elite has never not been used with a selfish offensive play style at some point because anet allows that to happen.

Druid did this, Chrono did this, Tempest did this for a short time, Firebrand is currently doing it, and scourge had its time where thats mainly how it was used too. Sorry to say supports in this game often end up being very selfish which is why they end up so strong for so long before eventually being nerfed. Not everyone plays them with their ideal roles in mind.

 

>

> Back to staff: 20 necros in wvw spamming staff marks with the ammunition system will be a problem. That's what I was talking about. Staff is a utility weapon. It has insane life force generation (20% LF alone on staff 5 when soul reaping is picked) on all necro specs and can be dangerous on condi reaper as skill 2, 3 and 5 apply bleeding on top of all the other utility. I have a dire staff+gs roaming build for reaper I play from time to time to troll people (no one expects condi reaper these days). That build is quite potent and staff is totally fine for it.

 

Still why should pve and spvp staff be limited just because of WvW again?... (not totally in agreement with adding ammo to every mark but still i wont to pose this question)

I ideally you will only see staff as a problem in wvw and not in any other mode also the way you solve staff marks with the ammo system is by removing the old mark of the same type when you put a new one down so you are still limited to at max 4 marks per necro 1 of each skill at any given time.

 

Insane life force generation is technically not true either if you are looking at wvw zerg fight situations where people die all the time it hardly matters if the necro uses a staff for life force or not. In other modes (spvp) its also not the case and getting reasonable lifeforce from 0% without using something like spectral grab can be very rough.

 

Moving on to the reality of how potent staff is.... Its not...... Staff at its base is a low tier utility weapon and most people fail to see this because they always run the trait. If you run Soul Marks staff becomes a utility weapon how ever you NEED a trait to make the marks generate life force thus making it a real utility weapon. Take off soul marks and staff, at base, is a joke to labeled as a "utility" weapon.

 

Your example with 20% life force requires the investment of 2 traits and 1 Minor trait **(Soul Marks + Fear of Death + Gluttony)** if anything really the staff is not doing the life force generation at all... the whole 20% value can be summed up in these 3 traits not from the staff base kit. Even if we took soul marks out of the equation here the majority of that 20% comes from Fear of death which other sources can proc eliminating the need for staff if a person opted without losing the life force gain. My point is dont over sell staff when the staff itself is hardly responsible for examples you are tossing up.

Condi reaper is commonly not a real thing and has been pretty much phased out by not only reapers power traits but also by the meta around everyone else. The conditions are super limited to mostly bleed and it ramps slowly, minor cleanses can negate a burst etc. Its not good right now. The fact that you claim to troll people with it is a good indication of this. But if you killed them with condi reaper its roughly safe to say they would have lost to any condi setup because a good majority of condi setups on other professions are far stronger.

 

TLDR

Do i think ammo on staff marks would be cool? Yes.

Do i think the ammo idea a must? No i dont.

Is staff a good weapon at its base? No its mediocre.

Does staff needs a few QoL changes? Yes it does.

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Staff does need some changes but im not so sure i would give it a total rework.

> >

> > Give staff an auto attack chain.

> >

> > Best thing they can do for staff is take the life force from soul marks and make that baseline

> > All marks now generate 3% life force at abase

> > **Mark of blood** no longer grants regeneration and just immediately leeches a bit of hp for each foe hit in the area (similar to focus 4 hp leech)

> > **Chillbains** pulses 1 additional time after a small delay

> > **Putrid mark** remains as is

> > **Reapers mark** remains as is

> >

> > **Soul marks** now makes marks unblockable and reduces staff recharge by 10% +2% for each target hit (similar to the way the reaper shout trait works.)

> >

> >

> >

>

> These are fairly great suggestions, I'd like to build off of them, so in addition to what you mention I'd recommend the following:

>

> I would make Soul Marks do a flat 20% reduction of CDs like other weapon skill CD traits.

 

I thought about that but..... i feel like someone would say a flat 20% is too much especially if trying to make changes to the marks because thats how some people are when you make suggestion for necro. That said as someone else said cd reductions were made a long time ago still though some skills cds are wayyyyy too high which is why i opted for the 10% lesser value with a rewarding bonus based on how many targets you hit with the mark rather than a easy flat 20% this helps balance it out a bit more.

 

> I recommend that Chilblains pulse its effects once per second over 4 seconds with the strike damage on the first pulse. Soul Marks makes the initial strike unblockable.

>

 

Thats too much for a single weapon skill imo i would have to question why gs does not pulse faster if you made staff 3 pulse that many times that fast. it should litterally just be one pulse on mark trigger followed by anothero ne after a 1.5 or 2s delay

 

> Give Putrid Mark an Ammo system. 5s CD between uses, 2 uses, use recharge of 25s. This is so you can't double blast the Chilblains field, but you could lay down another field from a utility to blast.

 

I mean im not so sure this is really needed i feel like if i had written that someone would have said "THATS TOO STRONG"

 

>

> For AA chain you suggested but did not elaborate on:

>

> This is based on the current AA being hit 1 in the chain, visually think of that hand raking the target or something like that.

> 2nd hit should be little to no delay, similar damage to 1st hit, no LF gain, inflicts poison for 4s.

> 3rd hit should also be little to no delay, about 15% more damage than the previous hit, no LF gain, inflicts chill for 2s.

 

No ranged chill on auto chain thats a good way to get the chill condition nerfed again you should keep some lf gen on autos

I can already see people saying chill is too strong and this would just be chill spam.

 

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > **Mark of blood** no longer grants regeneration and just immediately leeches a bit of hp for each foe hit in the area (similar to focus 4 hp leech)

>

> And this is exactly the kind of idea that justify why I do not want ANet to touch the necromancer's staff. Life siphon is hand down one of the worst mechanism in this game. We shouldn't ask ANet to put more of this on the already poor kit of the necromancer. Your suggestion is basically a support and damage nerf.

You need staff to realisticly be a support weapon in form of healing before you can call it a real nerf i dont agree with you sorry.

People dont go around pressing 2 for healing as a necromancer and call it true support thats not a thing.

 

Current staff is still kind of crap regardless if it changes or not because of simple things like none of the marks generate life force at their base forcing the use of soul marks with the weapon.

 

Regen aint all that and it never will be so long as various other professions do it better you wont be pressing 2 for healing over time like its a superb thing. Necromancers main support comes from Blood well, Transfusion, Barrier, Vampiric aura and in that order. I dont even think regeneration is a major consideration in most setups its just there but its not a big deal.

 

You do have a right to say you dont want anything changed because anet will prob mess it up and that much i agree with but still thats not a reason to pretent like staff is all that amazing cause its really not.

 

Like Holo its alot of reward for little risk, mantras are instant cast just like mesmers allowing a plethora of skills to be used at the same time which can be very oppressive when used against you.

 

Firebrand just needs their mantras checked and a bit more risk added to them personally when using a tome. Do these things and they would be fine.

I personally like the way charr look as is i dont want them looking more human shaped which is what would happen if you gave them a straight back all the time.

Their necks and faces would need to be reduced for that too which is just no....

 

You can make capes look good on charr if you got some style even with the arched back.

 

As far as i understand being hunched over is their natural position but they can choose to stand up straight for certain occasions which is why you saw it in gw1. Seems like i also might have read some place that standing up straight is also very stressful on their backs if they do so for long periods of time.

Staff does need some changes but im not so sure i would give it a total rework.

 

Give staff an auto attack chain.

 

Best thing they can do for staff is take the life force from soul marks and make that baseline

All marks now generate 3% life force at abase

**Mark of blood** no longer grants regeneration and just immediately leeches a bit of hp for each foe hit in the area (similar to focus 4 hp leech)

**Chillbains** pulses 1 additional time after a small delay

**Putrid mark** remains as is

**Reapers mark** remains as is

 

**Soul marks** now makes marks unblockable and reduces staff recharge by 10% +2% for each target hit (similar to the way the reaper shout trait works.)

 

 

 

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Show us how it's done then, it has visual/audio tells. You was obviously marked for a while and still failed to dodge DJ.

>

> Los counters it.

 

A DJ done at less than 400 range is not reactively dodge-able.

A big part of what makes the visual / audio tell work is the fact that its designed to be done at ranged giving you the time it takes the projectile to get from A to B to react. If you lower the distance from A to B it considerable decreases the chance that someone can reactively dodge the DJ even with the audio tell. This is not even factoring in quickness or how fast a persons PC might render a player out of stealth based on what else is going on around them.

 

So while in alot of cases yes you can totally react to it. The shooter can technically make it nearly impossible to react to with no tell if they choose to. Its kind of a similar case for mesmer burst when people say "Just look for mirror blade and dodge" the reality is you wont see it if they blink or close the distance before hand.

 

I can under stand the OP's post in terms of not being able to react in some cases because of this. But a 23k DJ sounds a bit unrealistic unless in terms of damage done. I dont think ive seen a DJ hit for 23k in a long time even if the thief has full malice.

Basically all of my characters prob smell like charr to some extent (take that as a good or bad..... thing i guess idk) one or two of them having a more burnt scent than the others from time to time.... (FLAME LE...)

My main necro (charr reaper) smells like what ever shampoo you can get from the general stores in Tyria. Necromancy is dirty work but I would hope he still prefers not to smell like rotting flesh or blood when he didn't have to.

 

oh and my one Sylvari prob... southern pine needles :D (cant get enough of that in the fall even better when they are burned must admit)

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

>

> Ya the original healing component of the trait sucked. It’s just the amount of healing (in fact the healing component in general) just isn’t good enough and should be fundamentally designed, to be less passive.) That’s why the change is negligible and people are still going to pick fervor over unholy.

 

The healing being passive is not that big a deal imo its jus the fact that Fervor helps the rest of the line work. Fervor effects 2 minors and your 1 master trait choice so roughly 3 traits are effected by 1 other while Unholy just does its thing. I personally would have preferred traits that just do their thing even if it requires you to do something on your own part to make it do that thing. But making it so that 1 trait is the main source of keeping 3 others active is bad design and forces people to pick it if they opt to use that line. Fervor should really be a minor because it effects so many other things so heavily. Not an optional choice the bars you from using the two other options.

 

Its not like they didnt have space to do this, Soul comp just sitting there doing nothing for the user during the fight.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > 1. Lock On needs to have the double proc removed (keep the cc one, remove the on-hit one) and increase the cooldown from 25s to 30s.

> > > 2. Toss Elixir S stealth needs to get reduced from 6s to 3s. The cooldown is only 30s and it's basically a free reset every time a holo uses it. The current iteration literally gives more stealth uptime than a traited Mass Invisibility on mesmer and the cast time is only 1/2s.

> > > 3. Net Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with a visible animation tied to it.

> > > 4. Blunderbuss needs a cast time increase to 3/4s with a bigger animation tied to it.

> > > 5. Overcharged Shot needs a cast time of 1/2s or 3/4s with visible animation tied to it.

> > > 6. Photon Forge autoattack range needs to get reduced to match other melee auto attacks.

> > > 7. Healing Turret needs it's cast time increased from 3/4s to 1s.

> > >

> > > [Video Demonstration](

)

> >

> > Or we could do none of this....

> > and instead not kill core engi tools and look at the problem which is photon forge (risk)

> >

> > Note i said RISK because thats the whole issue with the elite mechanic is not its damage or its range but the risk that comes with using it.

> >

> > How about instead of killing everything that is core engi and for the most part fine you instead look at the problem which is the fact that holo's main mechanic is extremly low risk to use.

> >

> > How do we solve this problem...

> > 1. We increase passive heat generation over time.

> > 2. We adjust heat generation cost of each of the skills

> > 3. We even consider making it so that holo no longer passively loses heat when they exit without trait investment to do so. (possibly forcing them to choose between stability on holo 3 or losing heat when they exit)

> > 4. We add visuals instant cast damage tool belt skills which are some of the biggest offenders in the most comon holo builds.

> >

> > Ideally you increase the RISK of using holo instead of nerfing everything that is core engi which ruins it from not only a core but also any other elite perspective.

>

> The only 2 issues I have with Photon Forge are the range of the auto attacks and how low the cooldown is on Holo Leap. The damage is fine because all of the skills have good animations tied to them. As you can see from this (

) I posted or the many times I've killed holo in 1v1s in my core mes videos, I can consistently outplay them yet still get hit by stuff like Lock On completely by chance (where one reveal proc is already enough to completely change the outcome of a fight.)

 

 

> So you might have a different opinion, but personally, I don't think Photon Forge needs much tuning asides from the auto attacks and cooldown on Holo Leap (the range on Holographic Shockwave was another outlier until they reduced it). Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

Thats why you adjust the heat cost as i said its not the range or the skills its the cost of the skills they simply are not high enough and allow too much up time of the forge without risk in competitive modes.

 

Understand that any changes that come to heat build direct effects how many times they can use any skill and how often they can use a skill in that mode. Overheating should be more common than what it is. I think i see a holo over heat once every 2 months. It just never happens because the risk is not there there is way too much leeway for them to sit in forge for a while (if not using attacks) and then not enough heat build up on using some skills

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > > Overall it’s a slight slight nerf for unholy sanctuary. 1% in competitive is 200 health on 20k health target... which is basically the same as it is now except it doesn’t scale with healing power anymore. For pve it’ll be nice but it’s still very low impact change.

> > how did you come up with this

> >

> > Base before was about 130 hp per second (no healing power) - this is weaker than base boon regen healing by the way in a grand master slot)

> > Base after is about 191 hp per second (no extra vitality)

> >

> > When you really look at what healing power does for necromancer (not very much) there are not many skills healing power scales well with to make it overly worth taking outside of blood well and maybe transfusion or barriers on scourge there really is nothing that shines with additional healing power.

> >

> > how on earth is this a nerf?

> > Look at what stat combos offer healing power on current amulets. Off the top of my head I cant think of single trait to ammy combo that makes the previous version of unholy look better when you compare it with the combos of vitality scaling thats common for necromancers to take. Combos with Vitality have much more viability for necromancer than stat combos with healing power in pvp imo with the odd ball being like heal scourge on sage or something. but in that case you wouldnt run death magic. (i dont think)

> >

> > In any case C fervor is still over kill because its the main trait that makes 2 of the other traits you would look at in the line even have a good chance of always being active so... i mean... i just dont get it.

> >

> > imo this is the direction they should have taken death magic from the start with traits that just work and not traits that depend on stacking something else to make them work. is nice to have something you know just always performs in a certain way.

>

> I see it as a nerf because of the relationship between vitality and healing...in other words this skill will always heal 1% of your health, whether you have 50,000 heath or 20,000 health. It’s always 1%.

>

> With healing power it can heal more per unit of health which makes healing power a better candidate when grouped with toughness. For example, x amount of healing power could heal you for 400 for 20k health (2% of total health). If you have toughness (which is what deathmagic is based on) that 400 health means more to you.

 

I understand this concept but its not very realistic based on the previous traits base + increased scale from healing power. This example ideally just could never happen (with what pvp stats offer) so its not very valid

 

The amount of healing power you needed to even get close to realistically achieving a 400 hp per second return with the previous version. Even if you took as much healing power as possible not only would it be janking up your build to do so it would be a total waste of investment. I recall maxing out healing power in pvp just to test how much it would heal before and the trait never came close to 400 per second im thinking it was around the 300 range with over kill investment of healing power. It was just bad in general.

 

Not to mention as a self sustain grandmaster trait (many other professions have these) they often dont require the investment of healing power to make them decent for the user. The fact that when the trait had healing power stacked on top of it and it was still severely under powered for self sustain made it have no purpose. At least now its base is stronger.

 

By no means is the old version better (so long as its scaling was set that low). Vitality is just a more commonly used stat especially with the idea of investing more in self defensive stats which makes the trait more flexible and effective than it was before. Not stronger than C Fervor, but thats not because of C Fervor thats because half the rest of the line depends on C Fervor to remain active which imo is bad design.

 

By all means if they wanted it that way C Fervor should have been one of the Minors. Not a selectable option.

 

wouldn't that be more fitting as necromancer style minion?

Well then :trollface:

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> Can you imagine Druid and Revenant healers nerfed more? Wouldn't even be worth playing.

 

only if you are not willing to look at how the game could be overall instead of just looking at 1 or 2 professions being nerfed and trying to fit them into what the game currently is. Cal did say its not about what the game is now and its more about where they want it to go directionally.

 

I think nerfs would be good for everyone so long as they nerf the things proportionally so that weak things dont see the same strenght of nerfs as thigns that are super oppressive ideally this means a druid should not be getting nerfed as hard as a firebrand in terms of supportive power.

There is no excuse but i dont promote the nerfing of symbols when they are not the problem ideally symbols have always been ok and have their own pros and cons and never were a problem. This leads me to think the issue is within firebrand itself be it on the tomes, the instant use mantra splatter, or just the pure boon sustain or its a mix of all three.

 

I just dont want to see the wrong things targeted that are perfectly fine when you use them with other builds of guardian like core or dragon hunter.