ZDragon.3046

Oddly enough and i might get judged for this i think ranger would fit the Samurai theme better than both rev and warrior personally. Rangers whole weapon kit is practically perfectly themed to the tools they would have used i think.

I guess warrior would a close second.

Rangers wear lighter armor though and can also use a greatsword (which i think has more technique than warrior gs in its skill design) and a bow.

They also use other tools like daggers and knives and other throwable weapons (axes)

I feel like if mounted combat was a thing they would be one of the best equiped for it too.

If however i had to pick between only rev and warrior i would say warrior.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"ZDragon.3046" you dont get it.

> everyone avoids plain condi clear like fire, becouse almost nobody uses condis becouse they SUCK.

> thats why EVERYONE uses condiclears that have secoundary roles

> warriors shake it off doubles up as stun removing tool.

> thiefs shadowstep is the same.

> mesmer uses AT as damage and clear or boonsteal.

> necro uses spectral walk for both mobility stunremove AND condi clear.

>

> Sure I can take Mantra to cleanse condis but its literarly useless against classes that dont apply condis, meanwhile other have cleanses that have multifunctions like I mentioned.

> Im not saying Shake it off is the same as AT. Im saying it has similar role in the build like it.

>

> Whats the role of corrupt? remove boons, apply condis that lower enemies damage/hard CC.

The role of corrupt is to bring other professions down to a similar level of that of the necro. Or that was the original concept and why necro lacks mobility, damage out of shroud, and hard defenses. It was to make them as vulnerable as the necro was/is.

> At -> condi clear that deals damage when you clear, cherry on the cake is stealing boons. You take AT to have condi clear against condi spec and to NOT have dead utility against everyone else.

Techncially speaking that only accounts for the mantra at best (which actually still has a secondary function just not for the caster) not the other tools which have perfectly fine secondary effects or trigger as the secondary effect. Like i said people dont take these things because it means trading off not because they are bad. I've become some what picky about what people call "dead" in this game.

Some times when people say something is "dead" what they are realistically saying is "its balanced." There are some exceptions where something really is dead but those things are very far and few.

However you make fair points here

But maybe this is what im on about when i say skills doing too much at once. perhaps some skills shouldnt be doing secondary functions or regardless i dont think that makes mesmers condi clear garbage. The tools are there just not used by player choice. Until anet forces people to invest in choices like that globally the game will always be a hot mess.

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > it should be noted that arcane thievery steals the entire duration of boons. it will always get stab.

> > >

> > > Arcane Thievery frequently fails to get stab. In fact if there are four boons and stab is one of them, I can almost depend on the skill to NOT get stab.

> >

> > Corrupt boon is very similar it mostly depends on how many boons are covering the stab. IF there are 4+ boons and stab is at the tail end of the line corrupt boon will not convert it. Stability is the last in the priority list for corrupt boon as far as i know. ITs just the fact that most classes dont have access to every boon in the game which makes it easier to hit on some professions and not so much on others. I want to think AT is the sam way.

>

> Boon conversion, boon to condi and condi to boon , is **completely random**. Removal is LIFO unless the skill has some other priority like some boon and condi removal skills do.

The only thing that keeps it feeling random is how fast other professions can reapply boons over the ones you generally want to hit. In the time you can cast corrupt boon followed by any other skill a profession might refresh its boons that were just converted meaning it feels random but based on my exp it seems to be based on whats on the far left in the line. Some one can correct me if im mistaken but thats how im pretty sure it works and thats why some times it can be impossible to cover stab to fear its just hard covered.

The same also applies to conditions being converted to boons for most skills its starts on the far left with what was most recently applied in other words if bleed is on the far left and poison is on the far right you will convert the bleed to vigor Most xfers also work this way far left from what was most recently applied are the ones that are sent.

IF AT works this way will take some test (will do when i get home)

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > > it should be noted that arcane thievery steals the entire duration of boons. it will always get stab.

> > > > >

> > > > > Arcane Thievery frequently fails to get stab. In fact if there are four boons and stab is one of them, I can almost depend on the skill to NOT get stab.

> > > >

> > > > Corrupt boon is very similar it mostly depends on how many boons are covering the stab. IF there are 4+ boons and stab is at the tail end of the line corrupt boon will not convert it. Stability is the last in the priority list for corrupt boon as far as i know. ITs just the fact that most classes dont have access to every boon in the game which makes it easier to hit on some professions and not so much on others. I want to think AT is the sam way.

> > >

> > > I've never had this problem with either skill. haven't used AT as much tho, but CB? lol. I've used it in zergs and it still gets stab. you're trippin.

> >

> > Depends on what you aimed at and what was most recently applied. if stab is one of the 3 boons to the far left it will get converted... if its beyond the 3rd from the left you will not get it. That said test ive looked up in the past show that as a priority boon stab is last in the list for corrupt boon. (thats probably not true today) For every time you do hit it in a zerg there are probably more times in which you also do not hit it. Just because someone has stab does not mean pressing corrupt boon means instant fear. My several years of necro play can account to that. Considering ive used the skill thousands of times i can confidently say that basically if the boon is covered by other boons you will not corrupt it.

>

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/90781/list-of-skill-and-trait-boon-rip-priority-here

> Dunno if its 100% legit or not but from the read

> NECROMANCER

> Corrupt Boon - stab + swift + retal, resist + prot + vigor, aegis + might + alac, regen + quick + fury

> seems stab is hight on priority.

> but from what I played it doesnt seem to work like that, its annoying and timeconsuming to test anyways. Stuff like this should be provided by developers in the first place.

Can confirm thats not real...... lol

The only time thats gonna be real is if stab is one of the 3 recent boons applied if it was the 4th or higher applied you just wont hit it.

As you said its strong against warriors and thats because warriors generally dont have more than swiftness might, fury, and stab, (rarely quickness) Thus its easier for corrupt boon to screw them 80% of the time.

If you look at firebrand who can have a wide plethora range of boons its often not as easy to hit because they can have almost everything in that list except alacrity. Should stab be sitting at the end of the line on the right you need to go through everything else to hit it.

If anet actually prioritized corrupts to hit stab first 100% of the time necros would be in a much stronger place then they are right now. Basically people wouldnt dare bother using stab at all agains them cause it would mean near instant / free damage for landing any skill that corrupted a single boon.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > it should be noted that arcane thievery steals the entire duration of boons. it will always get stab.

> > >

> > > Arcane Thievery frequently fails to get stab. In fact if there are four boons and stab is one of them, I can almost depend on the skill to NOT get stab.

> >

> > Corrupt boon is very similar it mostly depends on how many boons are covering the stab. IF there are 4+ boons and stab is at the tail end of the line corrupt boon will not convert it. Stability is the last in the priority list for corrupt boon as far as i know. ITs just the fact that most classes dont have access to every boon in the game which makes it easier to hit on some professions and not so much on others. I want to think AT is the sam way.

>

> I've never had this problem with either skill. haven't used AT as much tho, but CB? lol. I've used it in zergs and it still gets stab. you're trippin.

Depends on what you aimed at and what was most recently applied. if stab is one of the 3 boons to the far left it will get converted... if its beyond the 3rd from the left you will not get it. That said test ive looked up in the past show that as a priority boon stab is last in the list for corrupt boon. (thats probably not true today) For every time you do hit it in a zerg there are probably more times in which you also do not hit it. Just because someone has stab does not mean pressing corrupt boon means instant fear. My several years of necro play can account to that. Considering ive used the skill thousands of times i can confidently say that basically if the boon is covered by other boons you will not corrupt it.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"ZDragon.3046"

> Corrupt boon very similar yet very different to AT.

> Corrupt boon CAN be defensive, but it depends on the oponents.

I dont agree here as i said there are exceptions where it can act as the best defense being the best offense but generally how its used and what it does no its not a defensive skill.

> Against holo? Corrupting might works, Fury works, Stab works, swiftness works.

> Less might = less damage. Weakness = less damage.

> Less fur = less damage + blind.

> Stab = fear, hard CC.

> Swiftness into cripple gives ALOT of ground against different classes, expecially when you have swiftness yourself.

>

> Against FB its amazing, Against warrior its amazing, Against ranger its amazing, Against holo its amazing, Against necro its good.

You know naming classes with alot of critical boons makes AT good agains them too im just pointing that out. Most things that corrupt boon is good against AT is also good against when used for the aspect of simply removing the boons or pressuring you foe.

Yes CB is good against these things but so is AT

> Its weak against mesmer ( mesmer doesnt really have important boons to corrupt, no stab, low number of might, fury gets quickly reapplied, regen gets reapplied too )

> Its weak against thief too ( same story as mesmer )

> Its straight up one of the best abilities in the game, fits necro. Has skillfull aspect. I like it.

Well boon corruption is a necro's balance tool *cough* i mean feature of the profession. Even still its not the be all end all.

>

> Now AT.

> When you thinka bout it, you before you read about anything, you need to know 1 thing.

> Mesmer has GARBAGE condi clear.

I mean techncially speaking mesmer has good condition clear skills people just dont use them thus people make the claim that they have bad condi clear.

Its more like condi clear is not important enough to invest in alone because the game gives you a offensive tool that can also be used with the defensive aspect clearing condi.

Technically speaking there is

- Inspiration line which offers lesser condi clear via shatters and phantom summoning

- Null Field which offers slow over time condi clear

- Mantra of Resolve/Power Cleanse which is more like burst condition removal

- Arcane thievery of course which acts as burst removal and offensive pressure tool

- There is technically even elusive mind but people dont use that either

That said its not that mesmers have garbage condi clear, its more so that people refuse to accept the other tools because it means trading something they dont want to lose which is how the game should technically be.

I dont think its fair to say mesmer has garbage condi clear when there are plenty of tools that can make mesmers very resistant to condi should they choose to accept them.

Realistically if you built around being condition resistant as a mesmer you would fair just as well as anyone else.

> After you accept that you realise that it has VERY different role then corrupt.

> In fact AT is more similar to Shake it off from warrior.

> Its condi clear, that can be used as something else when the clear is not needed.

Not even its more like plague signet with the minimal that something will always happen on hit regardless if boons or conditions are in play. Shake it off and AT are nowhere near the same skills i dont understand the logic here.

> In cmirage vs cmirage nobody will use AT to strip boons alone.

> First and foremost its condi clear, only and ONLY when you are safe from condis, you think about using it to strip boons.

Of course not because its cmirage in that matchup you obviously want to use it more to throw condis back in other matchups its not really the same story though. As we already established Corrupt boon is weak against mesmers for eating their boons because their boons are easily replaced and not as important... same kind of applies to AT here.

Side note you also cant say AT is different from other condi clears and has counter play because its not instant removal on button press and in the same breath compare it to shake it off which is exactly that..... ?

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > it should be noted that arcane thievery steals the entire duration of boons. it will always get stab.

>

> Arcane Thievery frequently fails to get stab. In fact if there are four boons and stab is one of them, I can almost depend on the skill to NOT get stab.

Corrupt boon is very similar it mostly depends on how many boons are covering the stab. IF there are 4+ boons and stab is at the tail end of the line corrupt boon will not convert it. Stability is the last in the priority list for corrupt boon as far as i know. ITs just the fact that most classes dont have access to every boon in the game which makes it easier to hit on some professions and not so much on others. I want to think AT is the sam way.

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > this actually makes my head hurt to think about this hard.

>

> Now Imagine being a PvE Dev and having to do this for 9 classes js

>

lol you dont want to hear what i would honestly say to that XD

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

> > > Either that or the minor stacks more might for longer so the trait doesnt depend on hitting people in a 180 range and has more utility, assuming the rest of the might gen comes down significantly.

> > >

> >

> > I think it should not stack more might because when combined with might makes right you are making a loop of

> > Dodge

> > Gain might on hit

> > Gain endurance and health

> > Repeat

> > and while a single dodge will not likely give you another free dodge that seems a bit unhealthy

> >

> > I dont think the any other dodge traits in the game become that beneficial in terms of endurance restoration and healing when combined together aside from maybe a few daredevil traits but then do we really want warrior dodges to be on par with daredevil dodges? That would seem really unfair to the thief class as a whole. even if might gen did drop in other areas... this actually makes my head hurt to think about this hard.

> >

> >

>

> Its difficult because its not an easy solution when considering the balance environment we've had for nearly 3 years now, ever since PoF released. Until we see what the wide ranging changes are, like if damage and healing gets nerfed significantly enough in the first pass with this coming balance patch, then we can't really know how things will be affected by changing the functionality of traits like Reckless Dodge and its utility effects along with some other rumored changes to CC skills that were hinted at by Cal.

I do think all balancing choices are hard and i try to look at them with realistic ideals based on communication from devs that includes Cal.

Generally brining a lot of things down and making a lot of cc skills like the cc skill in rampage wont exactly be a bad thing for the game.

But i know he also touched on boons and skills that do too many things at once in addition to cc skill damage reductions.

>

> Its basically just a little premature to have people dropping in and blasting the forums with anything relating to "REMOVE THIS EFFECT FROM THIS TRAIT/SKILL CUZ ITS TOO STRONG" when we haven't seen what the overall effect of the damage and healing reductions, should they hit, will be. Though I feel like these threads are popping up because some people are hoping to get a word in to try and "convince" the devs to hammer certain things, potentially unnecessarily, with huge utility nerfs without considering the bigger picture while almost purely basing their arguments on a class as it exists in a vacuum as opposed to its overall relation to other things in the game.

It might be premature but its understandable especially if other mechanics similarly exists or at one point did exists on other professions in some cases that have been changed/nerfed due to over performing and one got missed. It would be the norm for someone to say "Remove this from x skill" Cause its already been removed from a some what similar skill. (this is an example and might not exactly be the case with something like reckless dodge.)

To be clear, I just personally made my suggestion for reckless based on a lot of other trait's that use to deal several thousand points of critical damage, almost all of which have had their ability hit critical damage removed to solve the issue due to past complaints the reasoning why i even suggested such a thing. Cause its already been done and really this skill more or less just was not seen as an issue at the time cause it never commonly hit as hard as it does now (might creep). If not for the topic of skills that do damage while evading it likely still would have never been brought up however realistically it should be brought into question as to why it can hit so hard as a dodge passive even if you wont always land the hit.

Sadly devs know somethings will need to be hammered harder than others and players know that too. While i like to think most suggestions and or complaints are just trying to get a word in, at some point you have to take them with the perspective that something actually might be wrong in that area. The last thing we need is 1 elite or a few skills to be left dominating and in a broken state of op'ness for 6 months because something was missed especially after big changes.

What they could do is do public beta test for balance testing before a final release which would help a lot but they wont do that. The public will always find out if something is broken within a matter of days in some cases hours. Anet honestly as much as i appreciate their hard work need to leave some of their old core values from launch behind and stop letting them limit the game. Had they not held on to the "not splitting skills in game modes" for 7 years the game might not have ever reached this place and be in such a desperate state of major changes.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > You can just buy gen 2 legendaries as well. Sure you still have to make the thing, but outside of OBI shards everything else can be purchased with gold or gems.

>

> That's a good point, you can buy a lot of the difficulty away from them.

To be fair work is work is how i see it so long as the player still worked to obtain said item i dont see the difference. They just chose to go about a it in a different method. Regardless that method still requires hours on hours of play time to produce the gold required to out right do that so im not so sure i see an issue with it.

I got my first legendary (Howler) by saving the gold which took months of play time (few hours a day) to accomplish. This method at my rate of speed was longer than it would take to probably out right do the collections and what not on your own but let me skip a lot of stuff between i really really REALLY didn't want to do and it let me go about it at my own speed without constantly thinking about it. IT was far more chill for me to do it that way.

Ive seen people sweat about legendaries every day they play cause they are so close yet so far or they forget something they need and get delayed by another week or so and it just looks like it really made the game experience more frustrating than good.

Everyone is different so long as it requires work and play time i take no issue with having different methods to unlock an end game goal.

Im not sure its fair to assume that just because some one takes a different path its wise to assume the path is less difficult someone might find just farming the gold and buying the difficulty away is actually more difficult and more painful than doing it the "normal" or "old fashioned" way.

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > Removing ability to crit would definitely be a better option than out right removal of damage.

> Either that or the minor stacks more might for longer so the trait doesnt depend on hitting people in a 180 range and has more utility, assuming the rest of the might gen comes down significantly.

>

I think it should not stack more might because when combined with might makes right you are making a loop of

Dodge

Gain might on hit

Gain endurance and health

Repeat

and while a single dodge will not likely give you another free dodge that seems a bit unhealthy

I dont think the any other dodge traits in the game become that beneficial in terms of endurance restoration and healing when combined together aside from maybe a few daredevil traits but then do we really want warrior dodges to be on par with daredevil dodges? That would seem really unfair to the thief class as a whole. even if might gen did drop in other areas... this actually makes my head hurt to think about this hard.

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the

> > > > > > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit.

> > > > > > Grants quickness

> > > > > > Inflicts slow

> > > > > > Steals up to 3 boons

> > > > > > xfers up to 3 conditions

> > > > > > is unblockable.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon**

> > > > > > Convers 3 boons to conditions

> > > > > > is Unblockable

> > > > > > Inflicts self poison

> > > > >

> > > > > Corruption is stronger than a transfer and a boonsteal. And corrupt boon was already seeing meta use before it became an ammo skill, which you left out.

> > > >

> > > > Thats subjective though. There is no blunt fact you can find on the wiki or anything ( im pretty sure) that factually states boon corruption is stronger than boon steal.

> > > > I personally would rather steal boons rather than corrupt them to be perfectly honest with you.

> > > >

> > > > The second part of your statement is not relevant to the things i listed as for why i listed them.

> > > > These are the things they are looking to change with upcoming balance which is why i even bothered to point it out. I didnt point it out based on meta use i pointed out by looking at how many actions a skill does per 1 use which is factual and has nothing to do with meta vs non meta. A skill being meta or not is not something included in its tool tip as for the number of effects it does at 1 time.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Corrupt Boon:

> > > Removes 3 boons

> > > Applies 3 conditions

> > > Unblockable

> > > 18s cool down

> > > 2 charges.

> > >

> > > Arcane Thievery:

> > > Removes 3 boons

> > > Applies ~~3~~ 4 conditions

> > > Unblockable

> > > 25s cool down

> > >

> > > "but but...." So this is from the perspective of someone having both skills used on them, they're actually more similar than you think and 100% corrupt boon is stronger because you can control what conditions are put on the player. On the other hand the enemy can take some measures not to have stab corrupted but that's about it.

> > >

> > > "but apharma, nice bias there, you forgot the mesmer gets those 3 boons and quickness"

> > >

> > > Yeah I know but realistically it's a chaos mesmer running it, what are they getting they don't already have or that is actually useful? Quickness and the most annoying part about AT is the slow to be hit with which leads me back too...

> >

> > I generally dont like to leave things out regardless of what "what other traits might be" That could also be seen as an unrealistic example we cant assume that just because someone runs corrupt boon they also run curses thus making the self poison no factor in some way. I wouldn't do that for mesmer either im looking at the raw skills in question not everything else that may or may not be.

> >

> > >

> > > "Edit: What's the point of story time with apharma? It's a really buggy skill that needs fixing and didn't "need" quickness and slow adding."

> > I dont know how the skill is buggy its never bugged on me any time ive used it but feel free to enlighten me. The skill always felt like it worked properly just as corrupt boon does.

> > >

> > > Also you should in generally use realistic examples, you're unlikely to always transfer 3 conditions and steal 3 boons, even when maximum usage is realised (when it doesn't random fail too) only 1 aspect is facilitating you usually.

> > To be fair i dont think I ever said that.. I said it always will slow and grant quickness regardless if the target has boons or not or if you have conditions or not i think you misread me there (or i mistyped it). I know its an unrealistic example to assume it will always xfer 3 condis or take 3 boons the same can be said for CB.

> >

> >

>

> I compared the base skills of corrupt boon and arcane thievery. I was talking about actually getting the most from both abilities at their core which is far easier on corrupt boon because people are swimming in boons and you can time it for stab really easily especially with 2 charges, the same cannot be said for arcane thievery as there's few times you will get optimal cleanse and boon removal at the same time.

Fair

I think getting stab converts depends on the profession its easier on some and not so much on others depending on their boon varietyl. For example fearing a firebrand might be difficult because they have a wider spread of boons which can cover the stab. Fearing a warrior who uses stab is not as hard because their boons are limited to roughly 3-4 types at most 5 types of boons with stab being one of them so its a lot higher potential corrupt it. Its kind of a wide range between very effective and not that effective. Even more so when you look at professions like thief where at most you can hope for commonly is vigor, swiftness, and maybe a fury conversion at best in most cases.

Concerning AT

I honestly dont think the skill is built to be used as a "optimal" thing every time because it has offensive and defensive properties. For that to be the case the skill needs to be 100% offensive or 100% defensive. In the case of AT i really think its a 50/50 between offensive and defensive thus trying to get optimal use out of it of course is going to be difficult cause you need to be in a situation where you are attacking and defending at the same time and in most cases you are doing one or the other not both.

Corrupt boon really has no defensive side built into it so you will for the most part only use it offensively even via the "best defense is a good offense" situation (say fearing a warrior's rampage for example) there is no saving it because you want to condition clear or any kind of aspect like that built into it.

Both skills have their clunky aspects i guess

AT is 50/50 on offenise an defense so its hard to use optimally in most cases.

CB is very effective or not that effective depending on what the target is and its boon verity and generation.

>

> Go back and read my first post then, it's on the first page, I describe why it bugs out and how.

I will go take a peek at that I really am curious tbh.

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> Having some acknowledgment from anet that Reckless Dodger probably should do zero damage would be nice.

Tbh just remove its ability to crit much like other trait proc effects got some time ago. It would still hit reasonably hard just not 4-5k hard. Thats too much instant damage for an adept minor of any kind with no icd considering its other effects (Unblockable, Grants might)

I kind of wish gw2 offer charging abilities like some other games have where skills can be used with a normal cast time or you can hold the skill key down to charge and increase its effectiveness based on how long you charged the skill up to a cap. This could be something that worked greatly for all profession generally i think.

I like the idea of air overload being over charged to strike faster and faster or earth overloads range growing in size over time. Water providing over healing / barrier and fire just needs to be better in general.

That said overloads are a bit weird atm. I think tempest is cool but overloads are a bit left behind. Then again i guess anet wants tempest to kind of be stuck in that support role so they are not doing much with it.

> @"coso.9173" said:

> I mean it's already ingame in one of the story instances. why not add it as an outfit we can wear? sell it in the gem store or make it earnable ingame, I'd happily get it :D

> 

>

>

>

When i did that part of the story i wished i could have kept those too XD I actually liked how they looked.

I dont agree because long bow is not the main problem as to why it hits so hard or why they dont become fragile when getting into long bows range where they should be at a disadvantage... nuff said...

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > No mention of Warrior?

> > >

> > > Might Makes Right's endurance generation is broken as heck. With Magebane Tether and Might Makes Right a current meta Spellbreaker has significantly higher overall evade uptime than Mirage, is on par with SP Daredevil, and only really surpassed on the meta level by weaver.

> >

> > The reason warrior is not mentioned is because its a boon issue not a invlun or evasive thats also doing damage issue.

> >

> > Technically he is kind of right not to list warrior.

> > The only thing he could list warrior for would be

> > reckless dodge, great-sword 3, and defiance stance at best

> > Of those 3 things only reckless dodge is an issue as as its an attack that comes right after an evade that is unblockable , and can crit for several thousand damage but then again that damage also goes back to the boon / might issue. (wouldnt hit as hard if not for warriors holding such high stacks of might for long durations)

> > The other two things are the only ways a warrior can be completely resistant to incoming strikes for short windows while also keeping the ability to do damage.

> >

> > Defiant stance actually already has a pretty long cd i would possibly deem it as fair/ balanced atm considering the other healing options its by far the most risk for reward based heal warrior has tied with blood reckoning

> > and gs3 is well gs3..... its damage is only high because of the high levels of might otherwise it wouldnt hit nearly as hard in most cases for an attack thats also an evade.

> >

> > The only thing that really applies is reckless dodge (which could be fixed by removing its ability to critically hit or making it so the damage could be blocked) the other things cant be activated nearly as often mirage ambush attacks can in regards to evades that also deal damage.

> >

> > The conversation is not just about high evade uptime its about evades that also end or deal damage at the same time and mirage is more famous for that than warrior is.

> > When someone brings up the topic of being able to evade while dealing damage at practically the same time the first things you think of are thief and mirage... not warrior.

> >

> > Dont get me wrong warrior should possibly be included in this list mostly looking at **reckless dodge** though anything else is more of a boon related problem because the other things cant be used super frequently.

> >

> >

>

> GS 3, 8 second cooldown.

This is fine imo (does too much damage sometimes but i blame the might stacks)

> Bull's Charge, 24 second cooldown.

This is also fine imo

> Full Counter, ~9 second cooldown.

Technically this is fine too

> Reckless Dodger, around 4 second cooldown. (If landing your abilities.)

This one is actually not ok... i got rolled on for 4k crit last night and i was not even the main target lol just rolled right through the fight. Darksouls fat roll for 4k damage. I dont understand how this is a Minor Adept and this strong lol

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the

> > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category

> >

> > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit.

> > Grants quickness

> > Inflicts slow

> > Steals up to 3 boons

> > xfers up to 3 conditions

> > is unblockable.

> >

> >

> > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon**

> > Convers 3 boons to conditions

> > is Unblockable

> > Inflicts self poison

> >

> > Technically speaking Arcane does do too many things at once with no drawback other than a cd even when we compare it to its closest relative corrupt boon (which inflicts the caster regardless of successful hit or not) the difference in what the skills do in terms "actions" in a single use is quite different. Even if we include the fact that Corrupt boon has 2 ammo charges which does not contribute to an action under 1 use Arcane still does several more things things in a single use.

>

> Cluelessness amazed me here tbh. Like AT fail to hit almost all the time regardless of enemies dont even bother to dodge. Boon steal/corrupt priority is vastly different and AT doesnt prioritize any crucial boons (actually only resistance). This "drawback" is a feature of all corruption utilities for necromancer and because they are supposed to "control" conditions, like transfering them, they can transfer it to enemies.

here we go... rude... but ok....

So i cant count the number of times daily i get hit with AT and of all the times ive used AT it almost always hits unless the target is obstructed.

I cant speak on bugs other people experience with it because i dont experience them. That said i do experience hitting and being hit with AT a lot. You almost never see the cast but you always see when your boons vanish and you are slowed. Generally speaking pirority list are not that important so long as you know what profession you are fighting you have a good idea of what boons you can generally take with the exception of a few who just have way too much boon access (but ill get back to this.) Slow is one of the rarest conditions in the game considering people dont play chrono atm. IF you got slowed while fighting a mesmer generally its going to be AT hit you.

As far as i know the prioritize list go both are generally bad (from what i could gather) The only good priority boon steal is with thief's traits.

I know the thing you would want to hit the most if possible with CB is the last thing in its list I dont know what the list for AT is but generally speaking trying to tell some one why 1 is stronger over the other could be subjective if putting priority list into the mix. As there could be different preferences between different people, I dont think trying to say that one is stronger over the other based on priorities between the 2 skills can be determined.

Even more so when most people dont know the full exact priority list for both, however even if some one does know the list for both see my previous sentence.

> >Even if we include the fact that Corrupt boon has 2 ammo charges which does not contribute to an action under 1 use Arcane still does several more things things in a single use.

> "I dont care that CB is 18s cd (vs 25),2 ammo skill and has insanely better effect (corruption of crucial boons such as protection/resistance/stabilty into negative conditions and potentially a CC skill) because they have slow and quickness ! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

Thats your personal opinion that it has a better effect though. I personally think being able to snatch someones boons and keep them foryourself as a bonus is very powerful. I personally would much rather steal boons over just removing / corrupting them. I think its a much rarer and cooler mechanic. Also its kind of hard to ignore when someone snaps 25 might and some other boons off another player and pretends like thats not a benefit. REEEEEEEEEEEE

The only factual thing is that yes it has 2 charges and a lower cd. Turning boons into conditions can have a wide range of effect to "you just got screwed" to "It didnt do much at all" Its really not a stable skill its all over the place with a ver low and high potential and depending on the target. Not all professions keep critical boons that will instantly screw them over and not all professions allow the most critical boons to easily be converted via boon covering. Just looking at CB by itself its not all that hot. Dont let necromancers other boon corrupts fool you into thinking the skill itself is stronger than what it really is. Necros boon corrupts in general as whole are very strong. CB by itself is not all that but it is when combined with others.

Im not saying the skill is bad but AT is far more stable and its minimal potential is generally higher than CB imo. The fact that it has something that is always promised to happen on successful hit its like rolling dice and you know one dice will land on the number you want every time vs corrupt boon which can feel like a slot machine depending on the target and how much they are drowning themselves in boon.

"so ded" ?

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > I still think based on what CaL said i hope Arcane will see some changes i think its easily classed under the

> > > > **"skills that do too many things at once"** category

> > > >

> > > > **Arcane thievery's** actions per single use on successful hit.

> > > > Grants quickness

> > > > Inflicts slow

> > > > Steals up to 3 boons

> > > > xfers up to 3 conditions

> > > > is unblockable.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Even if we compare it to **Corrupt Boon**

> > > > Convers 3 boons to conditions

> > > > is Unblockable

> > > > Inflicts self poison

> > >

> > > Corruption is stronger than a transfer and a boonsteal. And corrupt boon was already seeing meta use before it became an ammo skill, which you left out.

> >

> > Thats subjective though. There is no blunt fact you can find on the wiki or anything ( im pretty sure) that factually states boon corruption is stronger than boon steal.

> > I personally would rather steal boons rather than corrupt them to be perfectly honest with you.

> >

> > The second part of your statement is not relevant to the things i listed as for why i listed them.

> > These are the things they are looking to change with upcoming balance which is why i even bothered to point it out. I didnt point it out based on meta use i pointed out by looking at how many actions a skill does per 1 use which is factual and has nothing to do with meta vs non meta. A skill being meta or not is not something included in its tool tip as for the number of effects it does at 1 time.

> >

>

> Corrupt Boon:

> Removes 3 boons

> Applies 3 conditions

> Unblockable

> 18s cool down

> 2 charges.

>

> Arcane Thievery:

> Removes 3 boons

> Applies ~~3~~ 4 conditions

> Unblockable

> 25s cool down

>

> "but but...." So this is from the perspective of someone having both skills used on them, they're actually more similar than you think and 100% corrupt boon is stronger because you can control what conditions are put on the player. On the other hand the enemy can take some measures not to have stab corrupted but that's about it.

>

> "but apharma, nice bias there, you forgot the mesmer gets those 3 boons and quickness"

>

> Yeah I know but realistically it's a chaos mesmer running it, what are they getting they don't already have or that is actually useful? Quickness and the most annoying part about AT is the slow to be hit with which leads me back too...

I generally dont like to leave things out regardless of what "what other traits might be" That could also be seen as an unrealistic example we cant assume that just because someone runs corrupt boon they also run curses thus making the self poison no factor in some way. I wouldn't do that for mesmer either im looking at the raw skills in question not everything else that may or may not be.

>

> "Edit: What's the point of story time with apharma? It's a really buggy skill that needs fixing and didn't "need" quickness and slow adding."

I dont know how the skill is buggy its never bugged on me any time ive used it but feel free to enlighten me. The skill always felt like it worked properly just as corrupt boon does.

>

> Also you should in generally use realistic examples, you're unlikely to always transfer 3 conditions and steal 3 boons, even when maximum usage is realised (when it doesn't random fail too) only 1 aspect is facilitating you usually.

To be fair i dont think I ever said that.. I said it always will slow and grant quickness regardless if the target has boons or not or if you have conditions or not i think you misread me there (or i mistyped it). I know its an unrealistic example to assume it will always xfer 3 condis or take 3 boons the same can be said for CB.

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > on this topic warrior players think they are more skilled than anyone, "just dodge lol", while every skill of warrior will hit for 5k minimum so can you dodge every hit? it's impossible, you have 2 dodges while they have 10 skills+ to dmg, so you dodge 2 of them and get stomped

>

> You don't need to -just- dodge everything. You can block, invuln, use a skill with an evade, blind, immob, interrupt with daze or cc, move out of the way with a port or attack from range on almost every class to date.

> If a warrior is close enough to you to land anything on you that isnt a gap closer, and are currently attacking you, you're disadvantaged. If you don't dodge a gap closer that hits you for a lot, you're disadvantaged.

> Play the game and evade the telegraphed things. Wars can't burst you from stealth or instantly port to you, so you have just as much information of that whole battle situation as that warrior, if not more than them. Let them have the big damage for getting near you and getting hits in. Otherwise they're just going to be objectively worse than the classes who have just as much damage output but can do it from 1200 range or stealth.

>

>

To be a bit blunt on this topic from someone who plays a profession that mostly needs to kite even more so against warriors they have a point and i can see why they would say that. Warriors have a lot of skills which will force you to dodge or they promptly erase your hp. Gs3 & Axe2 are good examples of that. ITs one thing to be at a disadvantage and another with just having to dodge things or die. Even dagger skills like the f1 burst should be dogged if possible and it can be hard to clearly see the f1 and the standard dagger 2 in the time frame they happen which many people will just see as "Avoid both!" If they run tactics with leg spec. then you need to also dodge anything that causes cripple or risk giving them a free stun should you get immob'ed. This makes the Gs 4 and axe 3 things you need/should try to avoid. Generally speaking there are builds that exists right now where you do need to literally dodge almost everything the warrior throws at you.

Gap closers have increased in number while conditions that are use to shutdown gap closing have been weakened. Depending on your profession you wont have some of the things you listed in nearly enough to compensate the aggressiveness of warriors especially while things like shake it off / for great justices are so power crept. Big damage might be ok.... omega might boosted big damage at the press of a single button is not ok. The fact that they can press a single button and get lethal levels of damage on every skill is a boon issue that needs to be looked into.

> @"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Tbh with warrior i would only adjust might stack generation and durations and change reckless not to be able to crit so dodging does not do 4-5k.

> > Oh Also make Dagger leaps a bit easier to tell which is which without having to squint violently during combat.

> >

> > I think nearly everything else is either very solid as is or super balanced and people dont use balanced tools right now in this meta.

> > A 4.5k rush is honestly on the low end of damage ive been hit with 9k rush hits before without warriors being ramped up to max stacks of might.

> >

> > Warrior gs skills should hurt if they hit though.. i would say losing 3-4k hp from something as telegraphed as rush is fair. getting hit for 9-10k from rush is a bit silly though. That can be near a 1 shot for a few professions.

> >

> > With warrior the biggest balancing act is probably just getting the self might generation balanced properly.

>

> They likely won't tweak that, though, as it seems ANet wants to keep the current environment in which boons are accessible; which is to say boons across the board are *very* accessible and abundant, maybe too much. However thats why they are going the route of trimming down damage **and** healing as the accessibility to boons like Might, Fury, etc paired with any % damage increases from traits has just exacerbated and progressively increased damage over the years. It *started* in HoT but it wasn't that bad, however PoF very easily pushed it over the edge and the introduction of the newer stats that they have added progressively through updates hasn't helped either.

Thats totally not true based on what cal has been saying boons are likely goin to come down. Warrior will still be good at might generation but it could totally stand to see some sources of might toned down for example

For great justices less stacks per use

Magebane pulses might slower etc.

Nothing wrong with warrior still being good at might the issue is that right now the might synergy is over-performing

I think they are just generally looking at decreasing things overall that includes skill damage, skill effects per single skill, boons, healing, etc.

Tbh with warrior i would only adjust might stack generation and durations and change reckless not to be able to crit so dodging does not do 4-5k.

Oh Also make Dagger leaps a bit easier to tell which is which without having to squint violently during combat.

I think nearly everything else is either very solid as is or super balanced and people dont use balanced tools right now in this meta.

A 4.5k rush is honestly on the low end of damage ive been hit with 9k rush hits before without warriors being ramped up to max stacks of might.

Warrior gs skills should hurt if they hit though.. i would say losing 3-4k hp from something as telegraphed as rush is fair. getting hit for 9-10k from rush is a bit silly though. That can be near a 1 shot for a few professions.

With warrior the biggest balancing act is probably just getting the self might generation balanced properly.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> No mention of Warrior?

>

> Might Makes Right's endurance generation is broken as heck. With Magebane Tether and Might Makes Right a current meta Spellbreaker has significantly higher overall evade uptime than Mirage, is on par with SP Daredevil, and only really surpassed on the meta level by weaver.

The reason warrior is not mentioned is because its a boon issue not a invlun or evasive thats also doing damage issue.

Technically he is kind of right not to list warrior.

The only thing he could list warrior for would be

reckless dodge, great-sword 3, and defiance stance at best

Of those 3 things only reckless dodge is an issue as as its an attack that comes right after an evade that is unblockable , and can crit for several thousand damage but then again that damage also goes back to the boon / might issue. (wouldnt hit as hard if not for warriors holding such high stacks of might for long durations)

The other two things are the only ways a warrior can be completely resistant to incoming strikes for short windows while also keeping the ability to do damage.

Defiant stance actually already has a pretty long cd i would possibly deem it as fair/ balanced atm considering the other healing options its by far the most risk for reward based heal warrior has tied with blood reckoning

and gs3 is well gs3..... its damage is only high because of the high levels of might otherwise it wouldnt hit nearly as hard in most cases for an attack thats also an evade.

The only thing that really applies is reckless dodge (which could be fixed by removing its ability to critically hit or making it so the damage could be blocked) the other things cant be activated nearly as often mirage ambush attacks can in regards to evades that also deal damage.

The conversation is not just about high evade uptime its about evades that also end or deal damage at the same time and mirage is more famous for that than warrior is.

When someone brings up the topic of being able to evade while dealing damage at practically the same time the first things you think of are thief and mirage... not warrior.

Dont get me wrong warrior should possibly be included in this list mostly looking at **reckless dodge** though anything else is more of a boon related problem because the other things cant be used super frequently.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > I feel like primordial stance does not need that hard of a nerf it would make the skill so situational that it would be seen as unusable lets not nerf skills into the realm of being unviable or too situational.

> >

>

> I dont think it would be as bad as you think. It would just require timing instead of just pressing off CD for free burns.

>

> > While i do agree with what you say there are better ways to go at this without making the skills feel so situational

> > For example leaving the cd and charge count alone and lowering the number of pulses to something like 3. The skill can still be used feqently and will still be impactful but not for such extended periods of time that would allow both moments of use when not and when evading.

> >

>

> I think the frequency is exactly the problem though. There isn't much of a drawback to hitting it off CD as long as you're enganged with the opponent and in fire.

I still think your suggestion is slightly too hard of change and people would simply stop using the skill because thats not wroth it im not even an ele main but i do play it from time to time and dont feel like that would be worth using in the event it got nerfed that hard. I would rather run a defensive utility or fire signet over that if you nerfed it that hard. Like i said im all for reducing impact but i think there are other ways to do it than a hard nerf like that. I would start with lowering the number of pulses but still allowing the skill to have frequent use. Lower its impact but keep it fun and dont make it too situational to the point is deemed unviable for the majority of fights. If it was a weapon skill i would agree but for a utility from what it is now that change is a bit too hard even with how nuts sword weaver is.

>

> > I personally think that mirage ambush attacks from clones should be a type of shatter in itself and this change could be a good thing but will be taken as a direct nerf to any mirage main and any mesmer or mriage main will 100% not agree that this is a good idea even though it technically is a good idea to put ambush attacks under control.

> >

> > As for Pistol whip im not sure the evade frames need to be removed but changing the stun to a daze might go a long way allowing people to continue moving even when cc'ed making it less likely that simply pressing 3 again will promise another stun into some form of damage. Balancing this one is tricky because it works on different professions with different levels of success and ease. IT can be something like necro which is almost free farm with pistol whip or something like warrior which has more than enough time and sustain tools to kill a thief who plays that way before it would get downed. I feel like a small nerf in making the Hard stun cc into a weaker hard cc like Daze might be a good start. Let people keep their base walking mobility for more wiggle room in counter playing the skill.

> >

>

> I thought about the Daze idea too but they usually sword 2 in which is an immob. Immob+daze might as well be a stun. I think it would be better to give up the CC or the evade.

yeah but a lot of times the immobilize will vanish just before the stun is applied also what about the cases when the thief is already in melee range and does not have the 2 available to immobilize but they can still press 3 and get the stun cause its range is hit box is bigger than people like to admit. Generally even if the first application acts more like a stun subsequent pistol whip attempts without first returning to their starting point wont have the power of a true stun via immobilize + daze combo which lowers its effectiveness a good bit. I think swapping the stun to a daze would make for a good start thats not a super heavy change.

>

> > Ranger GS 4 is bluntly over performing and thats a fact i dont think anyone should really deny this as a fact while its not broken its certainly up there with one of the skills i would consider does too much at once for such a short cd.

> >

> > Rev staff has already been nerfed so many times and this skill is not exactly spammable i dont really personally see an issue with it but thats just me ;P

> > Phase transversal probably falls under the 1 skill doing too many things at once for such a short cd but at the same time it does cost energy to use.... i dont think that these skills are the issues of rev i would argue the boons are more of the problem with rev just generally.

> >

>

> I don't really think boons are all that big a deal. Warriors stack might better, firebrand has more boons, and then you have elixer holo. It's more their flow of combat, much like weaver. It leaves very few openings while still being able to pressure you . Lots of evades, blocks, CC, blind, ect they can constantly chain together until they wear you down. They need to be able to be punished while doing all this if they miss skill shots or mis time skills.

Boons are a big deal if anything for most professions boons are the biggest problems. Boons have never been nerfed in a mass culling like conditions were some time ago and that in itself is part of a global problem in power creep. Even if warriors are good at might stacking thats fine but everything in general can stand to come down a good bit there by no means should be any professions stacking applications of any boons up to the 30+ second mark at that duration i consider it just having perma boon. There is no excuse why 30s of vigor, regen, protection, fury, etc should be allowed in the game in competitive modes. Even if a profession is good at might stacking self might applications of 15 or 20+ should be limited to very short windows as far as self application goes.

Invulns and evades that also are attacks are an issue but boons are too. Alot of skills or combos that evade while attacking wouldnt hit you as hard if the boons were not so out of control. Thats another way to look at things.

>

> > I think the herald heal is also overlooked its one of the few things that basically allows a rev to become immune or fight for a few short moments without fear of losing a damage trade. But again i dont think its something that can really be touched at this point its window is already really small and other healing skills rev has are riding a line of doing the minimum of acceptance in terms of healing skills.

> >

> >

>

> Herald heal is horrible in a 1v1 senario because when they pop it you just kite/evade/block for 3 seconds and they get no heals or damage but it is a certain full heal + damage window in any fight with +2 enemies. I think at the very least this heal needs to root you though making harder to just walk into AoE or channeled skills for free healz.

So you would think but you dont always have the reaction time to cancel your attacks or if its used early on when they are already at full hp they just got you to burn your defenses for really nothing if they are good enough they can last till the heal is back up again in a 1v1 situation. Of course people will always try to deny the herald heal when they can but then again several professions also have evasive that do damage which results in healing them anyways lol.

I dont agree with rooting them for the heal though. That seems a bit over punishing especially to be using a healing skill. I dont think any other healing skills in the game do this and i dont agree that one should be enforced too even more so when they dont have the option to swap that healing skill for a different one.

I know some charr mains who are waiting on the day... mice watch your backs! jk jk

As far as i can tell there are plenty of NPC charr who still dont like other races regardless of how often they might be forced to work with them they would just prefer not to be around them. I think you dont have to worry about charr who join groups like the vigil and priory etc as they have already left the charr life style and culture behind to do their own thing. Even if they dont like some other races i dont think they would go hostile to them. Its the common charr who still live among the legions that you really have to worry about if any. This is shown in the blood legion homelands (grothmar) especially. Because they have been living mostly in solitude away from other races (i want to assume for the most part) and are still attuned to that base style of culture of not liking the other races.