ZDragon.3046

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> I came to notice that players/meta don't ever have:

>

> * Unblockables which is a key weakness to the entire profession because of minimal i-frames and evades.

Because not every profession has a plethora of unblockables. Rev has the most common access with its phase transversal and considering the potential damage rev can do in 2 hits its why they counter firebrands. Unblockable skills become considerably less common after this with and dont serve as much value against the majority of other professions.

> * Stability to completely nullify the CC chain they heavily rely on.

Because some professions dont have a ton of stability that last for long durations. The ones that do are also over performing or stand a much fair chance against them. Warriors, Rangers, Weavers, etc.

> * Boon removal because they have access to all boons but alacrity.

Because the best boon hate elite was thrown into the dust with wvw updates back when updates were still tied together. Firebrand can cc combo it to death pretty easily too. Also only 3-4 professions of the entire 9 have the power to rip boons and 2 of them not very commonly. Firebrand also replaces its boons too quickly (uptime is too high)

> * Patience to wait out symbols.

This is true and valid and it works on core and DH just not Firebrand which is why you dont see symbol complaints with just core and DH (go back to cc chain issue)

>

> In fact a lot of players/meta builds have:

>

> * Uneccessary amount of evades.

This is true but damage avoidance is better than damage soaking the two things need have less of a gap in effectiveness but so long as damage is as high as it is right now people wont think this way cause in some cases 1 or 2 taps is death.

> * Too much focus on damage.

Because anet forces you too and its the whole reason why offensive firebrand builds even exists right now.... Offensive power works as a better means of defense than actually investing in defensive stats and in some cases defensive tools (depending on the profession)

> * No quirks with multiple benefits.

Almost every profession or one of its elites in the game including firebrand

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Anet needs to get inclose when making support lines and elites and remove the "You and your allies" to just be "your allies" on most traits and possibly some skills. This way supportive tools cannot be selfishly used to provide more sustain than intended when they opt to not use the lines for the supportive intentions.

> >

> > Its possible that we just need to see less skills that are obviously designed to be support effect the caster in the same effectiveness as their allies so that those tools some what enforce people to take up a supportive role or they wont gain too much selfish benefit from them which leads to a profession with a support line or elite over-performing

>

> I agree not just with Firebrand, but for all classes. I have always felt that outgoing healing modifiers and traits like Herald's Elevated Compassion are healthi*er* for the game because while they make an impact in group play, they have no effect on one's own survivability, prohibiting unhealthy or undesirable builds to arise. I think a comprehensive sweep like this would require major reevaluation for builds' offense potential to be narrowed down because that support-as-self-defense stuff has become integral for a lot or builds in order to survive, but I do like the idea of further differentiating bunker builds from support builds, putting further emphasis on teamplay and protecting the support.

>

Thats the sad part really most professions dont use their self sustain lines anymore even when the self sustain lines are good like warriors defensive line.

I get that like Necros Death magic is questionable and Ele Earth magic is questionable both lines still could stand to be better by a long shot which is why people opt for blood and or water for sustain both of which are aimed more in the supportive aspect. Really i can only blame anet for over looking these things as the support lines do provide way more personal sustain than the personal defensive lines do. To be honest this just came to my mind a few weeks ago when i had to really sit and think why a support elite spec like firebrand has all the things it has while being able to do the damage it does. As well as why so many warriors run tactics yet clearly are not there to support while having the insane damage they have.

Even herald was once considered more of a support yet was doing insane amounts of damage while being allowed to keep big chunks of its supportive boon power to be used selfishly.

Then my mind started going to the past things people dont use as much anymore. Tempest, Druid, Chrono, Scourge... all of which were designed with the idea of support yet were capable of being busted as heck when built under the idea of not doing supportive roles and holding some big portion of their supportive power as their own means of sustain.

I would say .... ANET stop designing new support professions, skills, traits and stuff for your game till you figure out how to not let people use it straight up selfishly cause it breaks balance lol.

Firebrand needs a nerf itself but not so much the core lines. Like symbol damage was always a thing but the core lines dont have the pressure to force / hold you in the symbols like firebrand does. Core and DH also dont have the conditional pressure or constant boon application that firebrand has which is why its so strong. Lets also not forget the use of instant mantras which are just generally a problem.

Ideally people are using firebrand which was designed as a support as not a support and any time a profession has done this especially with its elite lines but not specificlly with its elite lines it often is allowed to keep the damage it has at the core level, gain slightly more damage due to the boon synergy that the support line provides, gaints greater sustain from the support line than their personal defensive line. So you end up with a profession that has the damage of core guardian or DH without their sustain weaknesses when built offensively. The same things is also happening to warrior with the (supportive) tactics line. Of course you see how many warriors are running it now for non supportive reasons and how much benefit it grants them. This is one of the major problems with this game. Any time anet does anything with the idea of "support" i get worried.

Does Firebrand have counters? Of course it does but not enough of them. ITs simply over-performing when used for not only support but non supportive roles.

Anet needs to get inclose when making support lines and elites and remove the "You and your allies" to just be "your allies" on most traits and possibly some skills. This way supportive tools cannot be selfishly used to provide more sustain than intended when they opt to not use the lines for the supportive intentions.

Its possible that we just need to see less skills that are obviously designed to be support effect the caster in the same effectiveness as their allies so that those tools some what enforce people to take up a supportive role or they wont gain too much selfish benefit from them which leads to a profession with a support line or elite over-performing

But yes The firebrand line, its mantras, and its tomes need some adjustments to balance it out. Either reduce its supportive power considerably to make it no a support or reduce the supportive tools to be considerably less effective on the caster while still allowing them to be strong on allies.

If firebrand enforced players to play it with the idea it was designed for and not some glass boon cannon that splatters conditions over you no one would likely see it as a problem anet left too much freedom for players to exploit the supportive side of it for themselves.

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > snips

> > > > > >

> > > > > > wow that's hilarious.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hilarious because the joke is on anyone that thinks they justify core necro getting more stability? I agree. I've been laughing for the last 8 years at people that think like that.

> > > >

> > > > Well most of those changes aren't "give more stab to necro"

> > >

> > > That's right. In fact, It's NOT just core necro needs stability that is funny ... it's almost everything players have suggested; it typically follows the same line of logic because they don't consider the perspective of how this game is actually designed and built. It's mostly based on what some player thinks they need because of some deficiency they feel they shouldn't have in PVP/WvW/PVE. That's why it's ALL funny to me. It misses all the relevant questions that should be asked.

> > >

> >

> > I think the reason ask for things like this for necro is because other professions all have tools to fight other professions with ease to avoid being stunn/ immoblize trapped via evades that move them or blinks , stealth etc. Necro has been aggressively balanced to not have any of these things even with its elites it does not have a wider boon table and anet has kept it where almost every single other profession has a play style that can solo harass-it (maybe except ele)

>

> I don't disagree with that's why people ask ... but based on how we see the game working for 8 years, it doesn't seem like a good reason to ask. You shouldn't be overly concerned necro will be nerfed ... because you didn't pick necro because of it's great performance in the first place.

Of course it will be nerfed but i dont want to play what is my fav profession only because boon corruption is keeping it a float either. There is a limit of mechanical gap that is once crossed that even the majority of people wont play something just because they like it.

If playing the thing you like thematically becomes too ez countered by almost everything else in the game or everything in the meta it becomes more frustrating than enjoyable to play. I think there is good reason to ask for necromancer to not directly be hard buffed but at least normalized mechanically to what all the other professions have and let go of those launch values that anet keeps holding it to.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > It's just quickness uptime on the Ranger.

> > > > >

> > > > > If a Warrior had the quickness uptime of a Ranger, the Warrior would absolutely shred a Ranger in every melee situation.

> > > > Warrior technically should shread ranger in melee situations even without it

> > > > Thats the whole issue with why ranger is superior because in melee range ranger has the same tools as warrior does in terms of evades and blocks ontop of having a wider boon table.

> > > > >

> > > > > Even so, you guys who complain about Rangers sincerely need to l2p. That's all I'm saying in this thread. Not going over this again.

> > > > The next time anet makes something busted thats obviously overperforming thats not ranger should we just mark it off as "L2P?"

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > No

> > >

> > > We already went over this: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/95464/how-to-beat-rangers-a-secret-l2p-guide/p1

> > >

> > >

> > its comparable to warrior with a melee weapon in its hand.

>

> But it's not though.

>

> Shadowpass had already well covered in that link how Ranger already gets out brawled on node by just about every other melee class, which is true.

>

> I have no idea what ranking you play at or what your true skill is regardless of your ranking, but if you are truly only a bell-curve player, you can't come in here claiming that Ranger is OP because you're comparing plat 2+ Rangers to what you see gold 2+ Warriors doing. I mean no offense, it's just I often see people play a 100 games man, and in 1 game they see an excellent player who makes a class look busted, and then they're in here in the forum talking about "how strong that class is and it needs nerfs".

Over powered? probably not.... no not many things reach that state

Over performing? Absolutely and to be clear ranger is not the only one so dont take it like its a bias only against ranger but lets not deny that its over performing for where the majority of players are. If you are above that then thats your perspective which is an ok perspective to have but sadly the game is not balanced around the top percentile its balanced around the majority.

im comparing skills to skills not what i see one player doing vs another player

Im talking about built in tools that the profession has which makes it semi comparable to warrior. You are totally twisting this in completely the wrong direction from what im pointing out

Ranger has great ranged pressure and damage with axe and long bow which is fine.

Ranger also has great melee pressure and defense with a gs or even with a main hand sword (when the person really wants to master it)

Warriors are great in melee but horrid in range

Again im not comparing plat players to gold players

Im comparing damage, blocks, evades, boon tables, and cc in both kits.].

Warriors have an off hand weapon with a weaker block in terms of cooldowns, dont have as wide of a boon table to play with, and evasive power similar to ranger in terms of dodge rolls or other evasive skills.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > It's just quickness uptime on the Ranger.

> > >

> > > If a Warrior had the quickness uptime of a Ranger, the Warrior would absolutely shred a Ranger in every melee situation.

> > Warrior technically should shread ranger in melee situations even without it

> > Thats the whole issue with why ranger is superior because in melee range ranger has the same tools as warrior does in terms of evades and blocks ontop of having a wider boon table.

> > >

> > > Even so, you guys who complain about Rangers sincerely need to l2p. That's all I'm saying in this thread. Not going over this again.

> > The next time anet makes something busted thats obviously overperforming thats not ranger should we just mark it off as "L2P?"

> >

> >

>

> No

>

> We already went over this: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/95464/how-to-beat-rangers-a-secret-l2p-guide/p1

>

>

I know so stop trying to dumb it down you gave good tips and i pointed that out but ideally at the end of this i said all you did was say LoS

Every solution was LoS

Give up point LoS

Dont fight ranger if he is going to burst run and LoS

Its the scourge is not op (back when it was broken) just dont stand in shades and L2P style argument and its silly.

Sorry but no Trevor

No other profession keeps both strong ranged and melee pressure all at the same time in the same build.

Only ranger does this which is why its comparable to warrior with a melee weapon in its hand.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> 1. Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.

remove the daze or give it the rampage nerf no other unactive pet skill hits anywhere near that hard.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> It's just quickness uptime on the Ranger.

>

> If a Warrior had the quickness uptime of a Ranger, the Warrior would absolutely shred a Ranger in every melee situation.

Warrior technically should shread ranger in melee situations even without it

Thats the whole issue with why ranger is superior because in melee range ranger has the same tools as warrior does in terms of evades and blocks ontop of having a wider boon table.

>

> Even so, you guys who complain about Rangers sincerely need to l2p. That's all I'm saying in this thread. Not going over this again.

The next time anet makes something busted thats obviously overperforming thats not ranger should we just mark it off as "L2P?"

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> Ranger is superior to warrior in a lot of respects, honestly. More boon access, more stun breaks and stability, equal if not greater damage, more range, more CC (than meta spellbreaker, not in general though), passive damage via pet. If building for high burst, ranger can do it better. If building high sustain, ranger can do it better. The main advantage warrior has is superior cleave where ranger is primarily single target. This makes warrior better out fighting outnumbered but ranger can do just as well considering they don't care about holding the point.

Dont forget stealth access which is something warrior can have.

People are laughing at the Op but he technically is not wrong Ranger is very comparable to warrior atm.

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > snips

> > > >

> > > > wow that's hilarious.

> > >

> > > Hilarious because the joke is on anyone that thinks they justify core necro getting more stability? I agree. I've been laughing for the last 8 years at people that think like that.

> >

> > Well most of those changes aren't "give more stab to necro"

>

> That's right. In fact, It's NOT just core necro needs stability that is funny ... it's almost everything players have suggested; it typically follows the same line of logic because they don't consider the perspective of how this game is actually designed and built. It's mostly based on what some player thinks they need because of some deficiency they feel they shouldn't have in PVP/WvW/PVE. That's why it's ALL funny to me. It misses all the relevant questions that should be asked.

>

I think the reason ask for things like this for necro is because other professions all have tools to fight other professions with ease to avoid being stunn/ immoblize trapped via evades that move them or blinks , stealth etc. Necro has been aggressively balanced to not have any of these things even with its elites it does not have a wider boon table and anet has kept it where almost every single other profession has a play style that can solo harass-it (maybe except ele)

Necromancer can often make a build thats good against 1 or 2 things while other professions can be good against the majority of things in truth its easy to feel that necro has been more aggressively balanced than other professions in the since that anet is still holding it to its core launch date values. In other words all specs are slow, all specs have limited mobility, no extra evades or blocks, all specs have limited boon table (mostly self might, swiftness, some protection, limited stab). Has no insane synergy that leads to immediately high condi ramp like weaver or mirage or heal potential like warrior via might gain.

So really i cant blame people for saying things like that. Its not just based on what the player thinks necro needs its based on what the player sees that every other professions has that necromancer does not for some reason.

MY main concern with the changes is that necro will be over nerfed despite it already lacking alot of things other professions have gained over time via elites. But oh well...

Fixing match manipulation it, adding new supported modes that are not just conquest, properly enforcing even balance across everyone instead of some more over others.

Removing or limited toxic behavior and taking action against its swiftly.

Fixing the ranking system will help too or adding different ranks for new different modes. People shouldnt take rank thats based on how your team performs on average as their personal skill ranking as the two do not always relate to each other. In some cases people can be very skilled and end up with a bad rank due to bad team machup averages while others who are "average" at the game can end up in high plat just cause luck of the draw.

If anet does these things then they can start promoting for pvp. But the biggest things are balances and new game modes thats not just **"Capture and hold!"**

Sorry but if you are going to opt to 5 man premade match you should be forced to go against another 5 man premade or at least a 4 man premade other than that no exceptions. The game should always do its best to match premades with other premades.

Communication always makes a team stronger and you just dont have that level of communication and understanding with pug group vs a 5 man pre made.

Generally supported pvp needs more game modes than standard conquest why anet does not realize this i dont know.

Why wvw needs competitive objectives that are not just towers and keeps imo..

when the pve portion of wvw is removed that makes it true wvw

The pentical of wvw now is fights at walls and doors of 40v40

Every once in a while 40v40 while running to one of those walls or doors.

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > > > > some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > i vote stealth assassination stays.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I agree with this but i dont agree with 1 shot levels of damage period getting a modest chunk of damage in to get the advantage is ok getting 1shot with no tell is not ok period.

> > > >

> > > > chunking most players is meaningless, they heal to full within 3s while dodging and then vomit 10 boons or even get half hp barriers.

> > >

> > > Then you just rinse and repeat until they are out of resources. Besides, it's not usually the case now days. One shot builds will delete just about anything, even if you have your CDs up with full health. What it *should* do is just even the playing field, not insta-gib people. Let me be clear too that most people referring to "one-shot" builds really mean "Builds that have a very short to instant TTK with little to no chance to counter play"

> >

> > what people dont get, that 1shot builds just do that and are dry. when I go for the burst and you reheal to full as 1shot core. Im left with autoattacks and thats it.

> > and here you stand with full hp, toughtness amulet, protection 10 stacks of stab and propably 15+ stacks of might.

> > If you dont down someone with the first combo you have failed, becouse resustain of almost everyone is too high.

> > Not every class can burst every 3s to keep up with it. Thats why people play warrior/rev, becouse they CAN burst people down every couple of sec.

>

> Most people don't run tanky stats. Even when I do on my spellbreaker I still have core mesmers hit me for 75% of my health out of stealth and good ones will have no problem finishing me off via kiting. Soulbeast can do similar, rev can do similar. Really it's an overall high damage issue. When you get lots of stealth and/or mobility paired with that high damage burst is when it becomes frustrating. This is especially bad for new players as I've had a couple people I was trying to introduce into pvp give up because of builds like these. All damage needs to be toned down (at it's suppose to be for the big patch, fingers crossed). That way hitting out of stealth will at most chunk your opponent for 50%. It doesn't guarantee a win but it gives you the initiative which should be the advantage of stealth, not being able to insta-down someone from it.

Exactly this ive ran knights on my reaper before thats a bonus 1200 toughness and mesmers do much of the same knock me down to 20% or so and still have resources left to run or attempt another burst in a few short moments. In some cases they still kill me on the first attempt because the damage is that high. Deadeyes can do much of the same thing. I very much dislike builds that can totally invalidate the investment of defensive stats.

Zexanima is correct its it will be very frustrating and even more so for newer players. Even more so when people ask how to counter that build or better themselves against it and the other person goes "Just dodge 4head" or "get good." Overall its just not healthy for the game.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

> > >

> > > assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

> > >

> > > stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

> > >

> > > i vote stealth assassination stays.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I agree with this but i dont agree with 1 shot levels of damage period getting a modest chunk of damage in to get the advantage is ok getting 1shot with no tell is not ok period.

>

> chunking most players is meaningless, they heal to full within 3s while dodging and then vomit 10 boons or even get half hp barriers.

lol not if they are balanced properly necro cant do this so im not use to being able to do that. Usually when someone one shots me from stealth or down to like 10% its rare to recover from it. Generally once necro is low it cant recover which is how most professions should be. But of course weaver, firebrand, warrior, etc kind of can ignore that and heal to full in some way which is true but i still dont agree with 1 shot level damage people will never say its "balanced" no matter how hard you try to defend it. In a mmo being one (especially with no tell) is never going to be accepted.

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> > Actually Warriors Whirlwind Attack-Greatsword 3, and Thief Pistol Whip are a good comparison for a simple reason. They do too much for a single button press. I think its time that some skills become more focused in what they do instead of some of them just doing too much.

> >

> > ZDragon.3046 brought up Warrior Whirlwind Attack-Greatsword 3 which has a 3/4 second evade, 450 range movement and has 4 impacts for reasonable cleave damage. This is a good example of a skill doing too much. I am sorry but Warriors should not be downing players when they are "kiting" with crits from this skill. This skill should be about kiting, and should be about using it at the right time, and not spamming it through attackers for more cleave damage. The damage needs to be dropped from this skill entirely. A 3/4 second evade, and 450 range movement are more than powerful enough on their own. This then gives the Warrior's opponent a chance for more counter-play while the Warrior is kiting.

> >

> > You can then make the same case for Thief's Pistol Whip. **A 3/4 stun should never have an evade attached to it**, and that's what makes it so crappy to play against. I feel the same problem exists for Warriors Bulls Charge, a 900 range movement, a 1 1/4 second evade attached to a very long 3 second CC, it can also crit for alot like Pistol Whip can. Thief PW can be spammed as well due to the resource system which add yet another element of frustration.

> >

> > Skills across the board need to be looked at, and they need to have a defined purpose with a real chance for counter play. This stacking effect needs to stop, and some of the excess needs to be trimmed from these skills.

>

> It has an evade, but you're not going anywhere until it's done or you cancel it and take the resource loss, and it's not getting spammed, staggered if someone knows what they're doing but that's not cheap. I don't know if people are still getting wrecked in spvp with it but it's hardly a factor in wvw anymore if it ever was, you're just asking for everything to be dropped at your feet while you're telegraphed.

My use of Whirlwind as an example was a very rough example just to personally give a thought example of how it would feel if warriors could use it back to back. The reality is that they cannot do this but if they could that no doubt they would use it over and over again just as how a lot of thief builds work.

I dont think whirlwind attack does too many things at once i just think the damage is too high like most things on warrior its probably due to the insane high might generation.

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> some of these classes need to be caught with their pants down unaware, otherwise they can draw the fight out far too long.

>

> assassination is healthy when you got high sustain, bunkerish classes that still can deal some dps.

>

> stealth helps catch these fools unaware.

>

> i vote stealth assassination stays.

>

>

>

>

I agree with this but i dont agree with 1 shot levels of damage period getting a modest chunk of damage in to get the advantage is ok getting 1shot with no tell is not ok period.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Zynk.9015" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > > > condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"

> > > > > > > Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lol anytime a thief build is effective community cries about it whether its OP or not and when its nerfed to being under performing thieves find something else that's effective even if it's been in game unchanged for yrs the community will claim its OP cuz now their dying to that build. If a thief build is downing oeeps its automatically OP lol. Next dp will be OP cuz sind put a build up and streamed it, u watch do been regarded on the weaker end but he posted a dp build saying its strong so more thieves will rile it and get good on it and the forums will flood with dp thief is OP threads. The community is so sheepish and predictable lol

> > > > >

> > > > > ITs the nature of how thief was designed tbh. Revs damage is high but people dont complain about rev spam. While the skills use energy they still have cds. If thief was moved over to a similar system people would prob be less annoyed by it in general. As i said most effective thief builds depend on it using the same skill or few number of skills repeatedly for success. So long as that is a thing people will always be upset by it because that kind of play style feels cheap and crappy by design when it works against you.

> > > > >

> > > > > Think about how it would feel if warriors could use their skills in a similar manner to thief. People would demand nerfs for GS3 cause warriors would just spam it around you for evades + good damage. ITs not the fact that thief cant be effective its the fact that its usually effective by using very few skills over and over again.

> > > > > If anet keeps thief the way it is now it will always be complained about if it depends a spamming or using 1 or 2 skills rapidly over and over thats just fact.

> > > > >

> > > > > Im not demanding thief changes from the base up just stating how most people likely see it from the other side.

> > > >

> > > > Bottom line is ur right it is the nature and design of thief, that I agree on. It does not matter what mmo forum u go on the rogue archetype has the exact same post regarding these exact issues, stealth, mobility, bursts etc, I've look thru eso,bdo, archeage etc and there all the same kind of post as these. The rogue archetype is a staple in mmo's and the archetype follows the same similar design in every mmo and every mmo forums have these same op thier/rogue complains do to it's intended design.

> > > Cant compare warrior to thief that way at all as if all things were unchanged and warrior could be OP or underperforming depending on ini cost of each skill due to it being a global resource it can be a downfall. Also when I'm running warrior and a thief attempts a stealth backstab or is running a build built to have high evade uptime and I lose I don't get frustrated or run to complain about the stealth because I play thief to and know that that was the smart thing to run against a warrior as a thief cuz if a thief tried less cheap tactics like trading blows with my warrior I'd consider that a bad thief and even the pistol whip thieves I've seen around with good timed shield bash and other cc means ive destroyed them in seconds when caught,so I never wonder to my self why their not easy to catch cuz if they were they'd be 2 shot by warriors etc everytime.

> > > A lot of forum posters seem like they think a thief should have to face them fairly with the tools they currently have and remove the tools that give them the ability to avoid damage or due damage while having a chance to not be hit back lol like a thief can trade blows with most classes strait up and not be easy food lol that's why pw is effective cuz it cc and built in evade to avoid damage but time ur counterattack right and u down the thief in way less hits than it does on most classes-hense the hard to hit design.

> > > Having a class be 2 shot by most things being able to avoid a lot of dps will frustrate a lot of player and they'll post how OP or unfair it is but when they do catch the thief and down it in 3 taps it's all good lol

> > >

> >

> > Note i was making a rough example not exactly directly comparing warrior to thief as the two are vastly different but some times as a thief mains who might read my comment it might be hard to understand what im saying so i made a very innacurate rough example. Ideally if any profession can spam its skills the way theif does with no cd at the cost of some alternate resource everyone would complain that every class spams and wins and thus demand the most effective methods to be nerfed.

> >

> > Again thief being able to use the same weapon skills more often than normal is not an issue even holo does this with its photon forge mode which have very low cd skills in its kit because the skills generate heat. I think if thief skills had minor lesser cooldowns and were slightly more normalized like every other professions weapon skills then people would find them far less annoying and cry less about them. CDs by nature enforce counterplay (in most cases) Theif's base mechanic is unqiue and very fun to use but as it stand it will always be a direct source for frustration.

> >

> > As far as OP goes he mains a necromancer and so do i for the most part. In the case of pistolwhip it is a very unfair matchup for necro but thief commonly holds and advantage over necro anyways and the common pw spam is very easy to exploit necro with. Considering necro is pretty aggressively balanced and unable to take high defensive tools and offensive ones at the same time opting to be tanky means no damage and opting to have damage makes you super squishy. ITs very easy for a pw thief to jump on you and pw you twice in a row very easily. While some other professions can walk out of pw necro kind of easily gets stuck to get 2 or some times even 3 whips for free. Only having 2 dodges and lower mobility is more so necros problem too. While its not impossible to win a pw thief its a very rough fight and often frustrating because it literally feels as i described in my previous post. Same skills rapidly in a short span of time for success. OP is likely just super frustrated by how advantageous it is against necro which is true because it is in alot of cases as a +1 it makes necro totally free kill.

> >

> > Pw is less effective against other professions but still has a good chance of success because thief often controls the flow of a fight with its mobility and evades.

> >

> > That said if you dont agree all you have to do is play the standard core necro or reaper wait for the PW thieves to come at you and see how fun it is. (spoiler its not XD)

>

> I cant argue for pw cuz I hate the skill and playstyle and can understand everyone's frustrations with it. Far as I'm concerned s3 shoulda been just a rooted flurry with evade and HS called pw with a 300 or less ranged pistol throw or short dashed actual pistol whip causing the 2 sec daze so ud have to combo s3 and p4 for the pw effect adding also more ini cost for the effect now needing to be combo's over 2 skills or 3 of u s2 first. Be less boring and feel less spammy. As far as reaper last night watched a guy in arena use chill and reaper shroud to literally walk around erena wrecking everything lol cant speak to the others skill level as I was just spectating but the reaper was demolishing everyone with chill and spin to win lol was funny to watch, I smartly stayed outa the way.

Reapers chill is usually not a threat to anything thats not another necro or ele because base chill durations are so short. But even the short durations are still effective on ele due to messing with attune swapping and effective on necro due to its lack of mobility options. Everything else can practically for the most part ignore chill entirely with just movement skills. Thief practically can be immune to chill with the right setup in combination with acrobatics. A real highly invested chill reaper build is fun to play and at times can be rather effective but really suffers with life force generation imo. Right now i find that its just better to invest in speed runes and speed yourself up than it is to invest in say Grenth or Ice runes in attempts to slow others down when they rapidly remove the conditions or ignore them with movement skills. I hope in the future i can consistantly count on builds like that but i think we need conditions to get culled down so that cleanses are taken less or are also culled down so that a build like that can really be effective.

Turning pistolwhip's stun into a daze might lower its effectiveness enough actually that could be an option anet could take with it. IF the stun was instead a daze then you could realistically "walk out of its range" before the thief could use it a second or third time.

But yeah my thoughts in a nutshell thief and its mechanics are just designed in a way where in 2020 its seen as cheap and spammy. Anet might want to consider reworking thief from the base up to resolve the issue instead of just nerfing what ever is effective at any given time if it revolves around mostly using the same one or two skills in rapid succession.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > @"Zynk.9015" said:

> > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

> > > > >

> > > > > > I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"

> > > > > Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

> > > > >

> > > > > My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

> > > > >

> > > > > Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Lol anytime a thief build is effective community cries about it whether its OP or not and when its nerfed to being under performing thieves find something else that's effective even if it's been in game unchanged for yrs the community will claim its OP cuz now their dying to that build. If a thief build is downing oeeps its automatically OP lol. Next dp will be OP cuz sind put a build up and streamed it, u watch do been regarded on the weaker end but he posted a dp build saying its strong so more thieves will rile it and get good on it and the forums will flood with dp thief is OP threads. The community is so sheepish and predictable lol

> > >

> > > ITs the nature of how thief was designed tbh. Revs damage is high but people dont complain about rev spam. While the skills use energy they still have cds. If thief was moved over to a similar system people would prob be less annoyed by it in general. As i said most effective thief builds depend on it using the same skill or few number of skills repeatedly for success. So long as that is a thing people will always be upset by it because that kind of play style feels cheap and crappy by design when it works against you.

> > >

> > > Think about how it would feel if warriors could use their skills in a similar manner to thief. People would demand nerfs for GS3 cause warriors would just spam it around you for evades + good damage. ITs not the fact that thief cant be effective its the fact that its usually effective by using very few skills over and over again.

> > > If anet keeps thief the way it is now it will always be complained about if it depends a spamming or using 1 or 2 skills rapidly over and over thats just fact.

> > >

> > > Im not demanding thief changes from the base up just stating how most people likely see it from the other side.

> >

> > Bottom line is ur right it is the nature and design of thief, that I agree on. It does not matter what mmo forum u go on the rogue archetype has the exact same post regarding these exact issues, stealth, mobility, bursts etc, I've look thru eso,bdo, archeage etc and there all the same kind of post as these. The rogue archetype is a staple in mmo's and the archetype follows the same similar design in every mmo and every mmo forums have these same op thier/rogue complains do to it's intended design.

> Cant compare warrior to thief that way at all as if all things were unchanged and warrior could be OP or underperforming depending on ini cost of each skill due to it being a global resource it can be a downfall. Also when I'm running warrior and a thief attempts a stealth backstab or is running a build built to have high evade uptime and I lose I don't get frustrated or run to complain about the stealth because I play thief to and know that that was the smart thing to run against a warrior as a thief cuz if a thief tried less cheap tactics like trading blows with my warrior I'd consider that a bad thief and even the pistol whip thieves I've seen around with good timed shield bash and other cc means ive destroyed them in seconds when caught,so I never wonder to my self why their not easy to catch cuz if they were they'd be 2 shot by warriors etc everytime.

> A lot of forum posters seem like they think a thief should have to face them fairly with the tools they currently have and remove the tools that give them the ability to avoid damage or due damage while having a chance to not be hit back lol like a thief can trade blows with most classes strait up and not be easy food lol that's why pw is effective cuz it cc and built in evade to avoid damage but time ur counterattack right and u down the thief in way less hits than it does on most classes-hense the hard to hit design.

> Having a class be 2 shot by most things being able to avoid a lot of dps will frustrate a lot of player and they'll post how OP or unfair it is but when they do catch the thief and down it in 3 taps it's all good lol

>

Note i was making a rough example not exactly directly comparing warrior to thief as the two are vastly different but some times as a thief mains who might read my comment it might be hard to understand what im saying so i made a very innacurate rough example. Ideally if any profession can spam its skills the way theif does with no cd at the cost of some alternate resource everyone would complain that every class spams and wins and thus demand the most effective methods to be nerfed.

Again thief being able to use the same weapon skills more often than normal is not an issue even holo does this with its photon forge mode which have very low cd skills in its kit because the skills generate heat. I think if thief skills had minor lesser cooldowns and were slightly more normalized like every other professions weapon skills then people would find them far less annoying and cry less about them. CDs by nature enforce counterplay (in most cases) Theif's base mechanic is unqiue and very fun to use but as it stand it will always be a direct source for frustration.

As far as OP goes he mains a necromancer and so do i for the most part. In the case of pistolwhip it is a very unfair matchup for necro but thief commonly holds and advantage over necro anyways and the common pw spam is very easy to exploit necro with. Considering necro is pretty aggressively balanced and unable to take high defensive tools and offensive ones at the same time opting to be tanky means no damage and opting to have damage makes you super squishy. ITs very easy for a pw thief to jump on you and pw you twice in a row very easily. While some other professions can walk out of pw necro kind of easily gets stuck to get 2 or some times even 3 whips for free. Only having 2 dodges and lower mobility is more so necros problem too. While its not impossible to win a pw thief its a very rough fight and often frustrating because it literally feels as i described in my previous post. Same skills rapidly in a short span of time for success. OP is likely just super frustrated by how advantageous it is against necro which is true because it is in alot of cases as a +1 it makes necro totally free kill.

Pw is less effective against other professions but still has a good chance of success because thief often controls the flow of a fight with its mobility and evades.

That said if you dont agree all you have to do is play the standard core necro or reaper wait for the PW thieves to come at you and see how fun it is. (spoiler its not XD)

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Zynk.9015" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

> > >

> > > It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

> >

> > Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

> >

> > > I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

> >

> > Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

> >

> > >

> > > I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

> >

> > Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"

> > Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

> >

> > My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

> >

> > Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

> >

> >

>

> Lol anytime a thief build is effective community cries about it whether its OP or not and when its nerfed to being under performing thieves find something else that's effective even if it's been in game unchanged for yrs the community will claim its OP cuz now their dying to that build. If a thief build is downing oeeps its automatically OP lol. Next dp will be OP cuz sind put a build up and streamed it, u watch do been regarded on the weaker end but he posted a dp build saying its strong so more thieves will rile it and get good on it and the forums will flood with dp thief is OP threads. The community is so sheepish and predictable lol

ITs the nature of how thief was designed tbh. Revs damage is high but people dont complain about rev spam. While the skills use energy they still have cds. If thief was moved over to a similar system people would prob be less annoyed by it in general. As i said most effective thief builds depend on it using the same skill or few number of skills repeatedly for success. So long as that is a thing people will always be upset by it because that kind of play style feels cheap and crappy by design when it works against you.

Think about how it would feel if warriors could use their skills in a similar manner to thief. People would demand nerfs for GS3 cause warriors would just spam it around you for evades + good damage. ITs not the fact that thief cant be effective its the fact that its usually effective by using very few skills over and over again.

If anet keeps thief the way it is now it will always be complained about if it depends a spamming or using 1 or 2 skills rapidly over and over thats just fact.

Im not demanding thief changes from the base up just stating how most people likely see it from the other side.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > > Why are people only now becoming vocal about this nonsense which has been in the game forever, and nonsense that I might add, people have been dealing with since god knows how long.

> >

> > Because its more common than it was back then

> > People stopped using it when other options became available

> > When those other options get forced into a more-balanced state (are no longer op) people opt back to the 1 shot tactics cause anet allows it instead of fixing it.

> >

> > People hit with this want to play their fun builds and professions which are likely not one shot builds from stealth but cant do so because they get one shot with little to no tell or time to react.

> >

> > Aka you dont get to play.

> > Rightfully so it will be complained about so long as people continue to use them cause its not fun not getting to play.

> >

> >

>

> Let's be real when u say when the other builds get nerfed to a balanced state u actually mean there's a equally high chance the got nerfed to a under performing state and are not really viable any more so players go to the next viable option. That seems more realistic of a scenario.

Well no.

I mean reality most builds are nerfed and can still perform but people like to think that builds that have minimal counterplay or too much of everything at once as balanced builds. While builds that when nerfed and have obviously weak aspects in their own kits (not against other professions) in respect to their strengths as dead and unviable.

Yes some builds might be unviable if you compare them to a build thats over performing which is what most people do. But if you compare them to builds that are not over performing they are technically balanced.

Most nerfs dont make a build unviable they make them have an obvious weakness as all builds should have.

> @"Zynk.9015" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > condi thief got nerfed people move on to the next easy / safe ish thing... that thing just so happens to be Pistolwhip

>

> It's been in the game since release too. I don't see it as anything more than a meme because it's not used seriously in anything other than PvE for an alternative boonthief build.

Well it has yes and at one point it picked up some traction but then people moved off it to sword dagger because it was slightly less risky. Then you had staff daredevil too! There were just other options and the powercreep at the moment lets pistolwhip work far better than it did in the past.

> I have some ideas for how it could be played more seriously, but it's not something I would ever use for anything more than just messing around, or boonthief like I already mentioned. I'm predicting it's going to fall off with the upcoming changes, so I'm not worried about it ruining anything, even though it's annoying to play against. The build is not difficult to beat unless it's a good player using it.

Yes it will prob fall off due to complaints and it will likely keep its functionality and see a point cost increase so that it can still be used for people who manage it well but not just pressed fore free dps. Right now it might be a meme but its one that works a vast majority of players and professions.

>

> I find it pretty funny reading through threads, certain people on the forums will spend their entire days going into thief threads, at least based on timestamps, and do nothing but complain while simultaneously directing all of their accusations at thief for game imbalance; Rangers as well, at least recently. Nothing mentioned about Symbol Brands or builds that are carrying teams in the "current meta" haha. Seems like they just have an axe to grind and have no way to let out their anger other than try making a bunch of noise as if people are going to agree with them. It's pretty cringey, but I don't see them changing much so it's not like it matters.

Well thief is easily seen as imbalanced anytime a build pops up that relies on doing the same skills in rapid succession. Because of thiefs base mechanics of having no weapon skill cds it gets very easy for people to see it as cheap and imbalanced "Especially when it works!"

Ranger are a problem and Firebrands are also an issue along with Weaver and we know anet was heavily looking into them already so there was no reason to really talk about them too much more.

My guess is that once pw is nerfed or changed people will move to d/d daredevil for high evasion point stalling similar to how bugged staff daredevil was. Then people will complain about that too because it heavily depends on pressing one skill a lot of times.

Considering the main profession i play is pretty weak to thief in general i totally understand where people are coming from and why they get so frustrated with the play style of thief. Truth is people would feel this way about anything in any game that worked by mostly pressing the same button or same skill and achieving moderate to high success.

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> Why are people only now becoming vocal about this nonsense which has been in the game forever, and nonsense that I might add, people have been dealing with since god knows how long.

Because its more common than it was back then

People stopped using it when other options became available

When those other options get forced into a more-balanced state (are no longer op) people opt back to the 1 shot tactics cause anet allows it instead of fixing it.

People hit with this want to play their fun builds and professions which are likely not one shot builds from stealth but cant do so because they get one shot with little to no tell or time to react.

Aka you dont get to play.

Rightfully so it will be complained about so long as people continue to use them cause its not fun not getting to play.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> @"ZDragon.3046"

>

> Mortrialus is 100% correct.

>

Dont agree

> Close fights can swing massively in favor of one side or the other just because of rallying, downstate, and the ability to rez in combat.

> You asked, "But what if your team was the one winning?" and my response to that is that it feels just as unfair. For example, if we were in a 4v4, both sides down 2 players, and we cleave out one of them first to rally our teammates. All of a sudden, a close 2v2 fight becomes completely unwinnable for the other side and once they wipe, we don't even need to spend time rezzing our downed teammates. Instead, we can literally full push another point with 4/5 members of our team. It's completely lame and contributes heavily to the effectiveness of ranked carry builds like rev or tools holo simply because they have the damage and mobility to abuse the rally mechanic consistently.

>

> Without downstate, fights would end more cleanly, but you/the enemy would also be able to come back into play quicker.

>

> I played in the no-downstate WvW events. I understand how heavily it emphasized oneshot/glass cannon builds, hence why I also asked Anet to remove Berserker/Assassin Amulets in PvP as well as lower the damage modifiers that make those gimmick builds possible. With that being said, when I fought against non-meme builds in WvW, the fights felt much more clean. Even on the receiving end of it, I liked the fact that I didn't have to wait around. It was nice to be able to instantly respawn and head right back into the fight.

Truth be told in most cases you are not sitting around once you go down especially if on the point you are dead within seconds due to high dps or person who stomps with immunity. In wvw you have the option to way point right away upon death, in pvp you wont have that even if downstate is removed that does not mean there will not be a death timer. Death timers almost always exists in competitive pvp modes for a reason so you would still have to wait around for a bit before you can rejoin the fight. Every once in a while someone in pvp will leave you to bleed out to keep you out of the game a bit longer and while its kind of a rude thing to do its a strat to keep their team in an advantage for a short time. In truth anet could solve this by considerably reducing death timer in the event of death by bleed out.

Before any downstates are removed or rally is removed however, we should start with removing the insane 1 shot builds first which will likely not tilt team fights so fast.

Im still mostly against removing downstate and rally in the current version of conquest. Every coin has two sides and regardless of how much you think it shouldnt be there there will be people who thinks it should remain and i think we can just agree to disagree.

The only way i would consider the idea is with a lot a major changes not only for the insane damage flying around but also for support specs. They would need functionality splits in pvp to improve their supportive power on allies who are still standing if aiding downed allies is no longer a thing.

I still think the idea of this would bet better left for a new type of game mode like standard death match, elimination, team tag etc.

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Marxx.5021" said:

> > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > > I'm not saying our matchmaking is perfect by any means, but it generally does a pretty decent job of making sure both teams are balanced.

> >

> > No wonder matchmaking is so bad if you guys really think average mmr makes balanced teams.

>

> Edited:

>

> It's more than just the average in this case, though. There isn't much variance between the ratings of the individual players that constitute the teams either.

> That being said, it is important to note that there is a point to be had when it comes to how team comp also contributes to match outcome.

>

> Even if the classes get balanced perfectly, matches are still going to bomb if the comps don't work or are weak. I guess that's why they're allowing class swap, to give people a chance to correct that.

>

> Thank you for the communication, Ben. It's appreciated.

facts