ZDragon.3046

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> It seems like too much but in the end, it's also just as easy to counter if you see it coming or calculate chains of stuns on Riposting Shadows.

>

> The moment Rev ports, it's vulnerable to CC. If that was a fresh swap port, that's a dead Rev.

Fair points as far as porting in... but when porting out....

I do not agree that its easy to chain stun reposting simply because it moves the character decently far and can be used back to back if energy allows. There are not many stuns that can follow up a Riposting shadows cast simply because of the range and nothing to stop them from simply legend swapping or using the skill again which in that case you most certainly cant follow it up with another cc from that a range.

My issue was never with the ports moving the character its with effects that come with them specifically reposting shadows. 25 endurance gain!

Dodging out to gain more dodge energy was just insane and 25 points at that.

They are already nerfing the endurance gain on RS though which i think is fair in the very least. The rest is more debatable like every other profession there are things in revs notes that are like "why?"

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"lighter.2708" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> >

> > > Sure it's speculation. However, with experience you can easily foresee what will happen. Just like it was easy to foresee that the change on the shade mechanism when they did it would be overkill in sPvP and PvE while it would need further nerfs in WvW. Just like when they release the runes effect that synergized well with barrier trait players already knew that it would be broken beyond belief.

> > >

> > > Just just need a minimum grasp of the game to predict what will happen. In case of the necromancer, even with all it's healing value reduced by 33% he would still see it's survivability effectively buffed by the damage reduction. Without, it's healing value reduced, it's foreseeable that he will be beyond everyone in sustain.

> >

> > Lol no, no experience can foresee what will happen when basically the entire game's changed by 180 degrees.

> > you foresee stuff by using your experience and comparing how one specific change will interact with an environment you already very familiar with, that's called foreseeing with experience, which u can not do when the environment it's self is changed and has become unfamiliar with you, which makes your experience invalid.

>

> Well, you're worng, it's easy to foresee that the necromancer fair better in a "low damage" environment because experience already proved it. It's simple, a necromancer survive a lot better alone against an unorganized zerg (without boons) than against an organized zerg (with boons). It's basically the difference that the necromancer will face after the coefficient are touch but not it's sustain. Everything he will face will just feel like it got no boons (when they will be full buffed) while it's own sustain will be the same.

Once again to some extent Dadnir is not wrong

If it was just boons the necro sustain would be even better than what it is now with just a few corrupts successfully landing but thats not the case in a lot of situations.

Necro does better in a low damage meta because the gap between damage soaking and damage evasion lowered.

Damage soaking right now is not very viable because there is a finite number of times you would want to soak an 8k or 10k hit and doing so especially with something like shroud can chunk a massive amount of its total value based on the players vitality. Even with the damage reduction an 8k hit which is not hard for many professions to achieve in the current meta would roughly cost 4k shroud which can be anywhere from a 4th or a 5th of the total bar. Couple this with natural decay and if you are not 100% topped out in a lot of cases its very easy for many professions to burst a necromancers shroud off of them. But then you have people saying that life force gain is too high when alot of skills might not even generate what is lost in a single incoming hit in some cases.

In a lower damage meta the impact on how much life force is lost from incoming damage is reduced allowing necromancers to take a larger number of hits which in a nutshell provides greater sustain by closing the gap between damage soaking (which it was more designed for) in comparison to damage evasion or blocking (which necro cannot do effectively but everyone else can)

In the distant past people had a tendency to play around necromancers especially smaller fights with strategic moves this has long sense been forgotten as damage and boons scaled up because you didnt have to do those things anymore.

There use to be specific strats/tips for dealing with necromancers especially in smaller situations like 1v1 or even 2v1 settings

- dont hit them too much while spectral armor is up if you can help it (but by all means dont let them hit you for free)

- do not blow all your burst into their shroud especially if the shroud meter is high (which was case by case kinda thing based on your profession)

- cc the necromancer in shroud to prevent them from being able to attack (They are a pingpong ball and cant do anything about it)

- burst them hard when shroud goes down

- Do not use skills which grant stability unless you want to potentially be punished for it

- Do not expect the fight to be ez if you are an ele because chill is a natural counter to ele's rotation (fight at your own risk or be smart about it)

People dont follow these strategies now because the power creep lets you get by without. Even if necro gets more reductions in the future which it likely will due to complaints of specific builds i hope people will likely still have to get use to adopting these strategies again the game should require people to actively think and not just passively win based on who has the most one shot/ burst potential on auto pilot mode

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> @"ZDragon.3046"

>

> I don't understand what you're not understanding about this.

>

> * Everyone's sustain factor is getting nerfed 33% or worse "Druid as example is getting CA skills cut by 50% again."

Consider that druids CA skills are not meant to only be personal sustain and are group based skills which heal multiple people not just its own self which is not the same kind of sustain shroud provides. Shroud provides a partial sustain mechanic for the necormancer only. A big part of the problem with this game is professions relying on support skills that effect 5-10 players and using them selfishly for sustain which is why druid ever got nerfed in the wrong direction in the first place. Do not use this as means to try and justify group support based skills vs something that only sustains ones self.

> * Necro Shroud functions are sustain, don't act like it isn't. None of this is being touched at all.

For the necromancer only not for 5-10 players around the necromancer. Im not going to act like its not because it is how ever thats not its only fuction and you shouldnt act like that is its only function or be comparing it to sustain tools that are realistically support tools which shroud is not.

> * Life steal/heal is also direct sustain, and it works in shroud. None of this is being touched at all. Blood line will become powerful. Not only is the sustain point not being touched, but the damage that comes off life steal is also not being touched, and it will prove be very strong with multi strike attacks in the next meta, such as Axe 2 or a well or Life Transfer. There is no CD on that life steal damage/heal.

Which? There are only a few skills that heal in shroud most of which are tied to "Directly" attacking which the necromancer cannot do while cced in other words if you cc it then it cant life leech/steal. That was the whole point of reducing its stability access even more in the patch.

Vampiric and Vampiric aura are the only current ones that work in shroud and some how these are now too strong for where the game is going and will need reductions?

Vampiric rituals also works in shroud if an enemy is standing on your wells (which ive already said could stand to get a reduction) This also fits they "support tool" being used for selfish sustain argument i made above and rightfully so it should see some reductions along with Vampiric Aura perhaps a best. Just that currently Vampiric aura amounts to so little hp healing over time in the current meta perhaps in the one going forward it might be appropriate for where they are aiming.

Again this patch was not to reduce everyone by an equal amount. that would just result in slowing the game down but leaving things relatively the same.

For hypothetical example if Warrior was above thief in terms of damage, mobility and sustain and you nerf both by 33% then Warrior is still above thief in the same categories. You nerfed both and the end result is that nothing has changed the game just plays slower. I dont think you understand the term balance and that it means that to achieve it some will undoubtably be nerfed more than others. You cant expect to achieve balance by hitting everyone with the same reductions thats not how that works.

>

> After 33% coefficient nerf, CD increases, massive loss in quick access/uptime, and hard CCs going to 0 damage, we'll be seeing about a 40% to 50% universal cut to DPS intra-class wide. After testing Core Necro specs and even Reaper/Scourge in the past 3-4 days myself, I can say that this cut in damage will easily push the sustain factor of any Necro through the roof. Furthermore its damage will become dangerous while using the blood line, when everyone else's sustain and damage is hit by 33%, but blood life steal/heal is untouched.

First you were on about how Carrion is top dps now you are on about how blood magic makes necromancer broken... Trevor you are all over the place here.

The fact that it takes a (estimated but not yet confirmed) 40-50 percent cut in dps for you to consider necromancer sustain to high says a lot even more so considering its sustain in the current meta on most builds is not very high. However you were not willing to accept other players saying that rangers damage was too high before now. IF some one had come to you and said some months ago ranger's damage is 50% too high you would have told them its a learn 2 play issue or that its just the quickness up time but the damage is fine.

>

> Oh and incase you are worried about "not having enough fear", discover Rune Of The Sunless. Summon Golem = Fear, right into Golem CC knockdown = Enormously powerful CC chain. And after the initial summon, each time you make the Golem Charge, he will fear the person first from a rather large radius, and then proceed to hit them with the follow knockdown. 45s CD, perfect for Golem Charge CD.

This is actually creative idea but its not something ive seen done often at all, but tell me how is this any different from (to name a few)

Basilisk Venom - Sunless rune - Attack for stun

Facet of Chaos - Sunless rune - Chaotic Release

Rampage - Sunless rune - any rampage skill

Entangle - Sunless rune - any other cc

You could combine this rune so many ways across a wide number of professions you literally cherry picked this into the argument without considering that other professions could also use this rune with similar results

>

> And this kitten about "no stability/prot uptime" and "not enough stun breaks" is bologna. I was using Blood line with Well Heal for over saturated heal factor due to life siphon and the trait in Spite that also consumes conditions upon use. Not only is this an absurd amount of heal factor but it also grants protection. You use the Well that grants Stability and is a stun break, for even more life siphon & stab & stun break. Then you use Plague Signet to deal with your condis and grant another stun break. This is very powerful with Spite Sig Trait, super fast recharge for the stun break an the condi clearing. It's seriously all you need for condi clear if you know how to aim and use skills at the right time. Between Well that grants stun break & stab, and Plague Sig, that's all you need for stun breaks and stab. Then you can use the Sig of Undeath. Run Barbarian or Paladin Amulet, with Sunless or either Rune of Eagle or Rune of Speed as alternatives. You want to use Axe/Warhorn as primary weapon set, then the 2nd is optional. Of course you want to run Death Magic for the toughness stacking and power stacking. Spite/Death/Blood. <- This build is already strong as hell. After this patch, it'll be in contestation for sure as the dominant side node.

Ok first of all no one ever said there was not protection up time you made that bit up yourself

The no stability up time is very much true though.

Which well grants stability that can actually be used to fend off a cc Tervor?

Well of power? The stunbreak **"with a cast time"** (bad design btw) that was often interrupted by cc chains so anet instead of making the well an instant stunbreak (like most other stunbreaks) put 1s application of stability to cover its cast time? That one? DO NOT i repeat **DO NOT** try to word it like the well pulses stability cause it does not do that and if you failed to notice that it means you have not been playing necromancer long enough.

Moving on to your Spite / Death / Blood argument.

This a strong bunker build but it lacks any real power especially if you run it with Barbarian or Paladin Amulet Which would dismiss your high dps while being tanky claims earlier. Ive ran this build before and even found a better version of it that what you are describing here and it still can be killed at the moment by any one person with high power burst dps 2 people ore more easily will melt it if it is stuck to the range of a capture point if you have any intention of defending it.

Seriously though as i said at best some of the passive life force gain increases like Fear of death and even signet of Undeath could get nerfed as needed the future.

>

> I don't think some of you people are recognizing how much damage rolls off of casting Warhorn 5 + Well Heal + Well of Stab + Go into Shroud and 4. Seriously, the sustain that comes of that is larger than the actual heal skill, and the damage is pretty equivalent to a Reaper sin to win 4.

Warhorn 5 use to be stronger tervor lets not even go there lol

Well of stab? Are you making memes now?

There is no way you have been playing necro long enough to know how it really feels to get nuked immediately on anything thats not the bunker setup.

>

> I honestly believe some of these Necro players are pigeonholed into train of thought of "I must use these certain skills because that is always what has been good." Branch off and try new things. Some of this stuff will soon be busted in terms of sustain factor.

No necro players are pingion holed into using certain skills because not everyone wants to be a darn bunker tank and thats a play style only few really enjoy. Most importantly core necormancer has always lacked offensive pressure that reaper and even scourge at one point had and it was naturally pushed into a more tanky position.

The fact that people even started tinkering with core was due to the over culling of scourge making near impossible to play in solo q. which allowed boon professions like firebrand, boon beast, etc to dominate cause they had nothing that could stop or suppress them like scourge could. Core was the next best option and hinges on players boons and boon corruption (for the most part) for is current viability. Both of which are being nerfed in the coming patch.

Most people will take the damage option if you give them one though unlike every other profession who has damage options with insane sustain via not only healing but also through blocks, evades, invulns, stealth, etc necro does not have the latter making a MASSIVE GAP between its sustain with offensive builds compared to the other professions.

Seriously try playing something thats not the bunker build you made up before the patch hits and you will realize how spoiled you have been while playing things like soulbeast meta.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"lighter.2708" said:

> > In what post u see life force generation not nerfed...

> > Spectral Walk: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 50 seconds

> > Spectral Armor: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 45 seconds

> > Ghastly Claws: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.5 to 0.333. Increased cooldown from 8 seconds to 10 seconds

> >

> > also, necro healing nerfed means overall necro sustain is still nerfed,

> > people don't look at overall picture at all...

> > should we start nerfing evade frame by 30% as well..seriously..if that's how people gonna nerf each stuff individually and not overall sustain...

> > necro force life maybe touched little, but u can't deny the fact that necro general sustain has been nerfed

> >

> > like they can easily shave necro normal healing by 90% and u will still say "death shroud not touched, OP" for how tunnel visioned some of u are..

>

> I'd tend to be the necromancer's advocate, yet here I still have to disagree. The necromancer's sustain is clearly no touched as much as the other profession's sustain which valid partially the fears of this thread.

>

> In sPvP most of the LF sustain will come from weapon skills and, no, it's not nerfed. However, if it was nerfed, the dynamic of the profession would be seriously hurted because shroud is the "special mechanic" of the necromancer. A smart change like ANet like to pull out would probably be to reduce the shroud's inate damage reduction to 30% instead of 50%.

>

> The other dangerous source of sustain which is not nerfed in this patch is life leeching (from the signet of vampirism to the minion's life leeching ability from the _vampiric_ trait without forgeting _vampiric ritual_ and the various life leeching skills). ANet appear to have sloppily forgotten about a lot of potentially dangerous sustain sources on the necromancer's kit.

>

> The necromancer is far from being great at sustain in the current game, yet it's possible to be quite resilient. After the patch hit, the necromancer's resilience is bound to shot up by quite a bit more than the other profession's own due to all the sustain sources that ANet "forgot" to look at. I can easily see 4 directions to build that will make the necromancer (and it's e-specs) way more resilient than before in light of the patch notes given after the patch hit (_well, signet, spectral_ and _minions_).

> - _Well_ because _vampiric ritual_ isn't touched.

> - _Signet_ because _signet of vampirism_, _signet of undeath_, _signet of suffering_ and even signet of locust are left untouched as well.

> - _Spectral_ because the shroud mechanism itself is left untouched boosting the efficiency of LF generating skills.

> - _Minions_ because _blood fiend_'s heal on hit and _vampiric_'s heal on minion's hit are left untouched.

>

> And I'm not even listing reaper's traitline's untouched sustain (shout trait, GS trait and heal on giving oneself a boon trait.), traits like _parasitic contagion_ or _unholy sanctuary_.

>

> To cover up the inadapted design of the necromancer's defensive system, ANet gave it a lot of sustain that can be found everywhere in it's kit. Most of this sustain isn't even touched if we look at the patch notes, so overall the survivability of the necromancer is bound to increase by a lot (even if it's poorly designed survivability). The concerns from this thread may be exagerated but they are not unfounded.

Its possible that necro was the base line they were aiming to drop everyone else down too but i wont say that 100% what they were going for without confirmation.

**Spectral's**

Certainly dont need any more reductions as unlike with other professions we dont have spectral mastery anymore while others still have their traits to reduce/improve their active utilities necro does not so they need to be-careful how much they scale those back unless they want to bring back such a trait. it would be very unjust for them to take those too far.

**Minons**

Fall into that "never used so really no need to touch" category.... There is likely not enough player data on them for them to determine how to balance them which means that they effectively cant tell what direction to take them to nerf or buff them. Though if they had to guess its likely that because almost no builds in pvp or wvw use them other than wurm that they took it as they needed a slight buff so they gave a few of them some QoL changes in the global notes.

**Wells**

i do agree with most wells were not touched which is odd vamp ritual i think could stand to get a minor reduction maybe but i have not used this trait in a long time so i cant say how good it is now vs how good it will be in post patch. But the biggest complaint with wells was well of blood reviving players too fast which did see a nerf.

**Signets**

I feel will be touched in the future but they saw no reason to touch them now or its the same as minions considering it was rare for any necromancer player to use them before the undeath change. (although i did) there is simply not enough data to really know if they needed a buff or a nerf so they left them alone. Undeath just got buffed so its unlikely to immediately be nerfed 1 patch later (i expect it to be nerfed back to 2% though in the future). Vamp signet actually requires you to get hit to get any benefit so im not sure that one needs to be touched. Locust signet needs to be looked at for sure i can see it being low key strong if you know when / how to use it post patch but at the movement damage is still to high for it to be viable. Chip damage would remove all the hp you could gain from it if you landed it on all 5 targets.

The trait signets of suffering is ideally fine for the moment for what it does i dont think it needs any changes. If we see everyone else getting their traits that grant flat bonus stats reduced like power, healing power etc then SoS will need the according reductions in those areas too.

In short i think a lot of the things you pointed out where not touched either with good reason or because necromancer has been pushed into a corner with very minimal options it can take in its utility due to how everyone else developed in late HoT and PoF to the point that people dared not even bother trying to use them because having certain things is that critical to survival the moment anyone looked at you. Without proper data on how to take something they could over kill it making it even more unusable. I think for sure necro will be one of the professions seeing alot of nerfs in the patches after due to communitor uproar because it does better in lower damage meta but oh well. We will end up back where we were after enough time.

As far as reaper goes i dont think those need to be touched as they suffer from the core weakness of necro. Traits like blighters boon and soul eater will not work if the necromancer cannot attack. They completely depend on its ability to attack 100% of the time In other words if you hit it with cc it cant heal which wont be hard to do now with the overall stability reduction. I truthfully dont see many people using blighters boon till they fix reapers attack speed at a base level. Its mad slow for a game in the year of 2020 where everyone else is rather speedy swift and the damage output does not make up for the massive reduction in base attack speed.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > After that I didint really have problems with that necro, I adjusted my playstyle against him but nevertheless, im worried about this kind of builds.

> > > i do NOT want the repeat of scrapper, raw HP as tanking is always hard to balance.

> >

> > Well I'm slightly worried people want something nerfed that might not need to be especially if we are not talking about hitting everyones profession resources in terms of nerfs at the same time.

> >

> > As far as scrapper i dont think necromancer has the potential to do what scrapper could as it had a lot more going on using a lot of tools necromancer does not have access too in general. Having things like stability far more boons, reflects, blocks, a possible invuln etc. Scrapper was just mad strong and that was in the current meta or one similar to it while necro in the current meta is not that strong especially while running such a tank build other wise it would already be meta and thus have been subject to nerfs without anyone having said anything.

> >

> > Anet is never going to give necro evades or blocks the community has been asking for them long before scourge because every other profession has them and anet still refused to do so because they hold necro to a standard of being slow and resilient without those things.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> its not about reflects blocks and all that jazz.

> it all came down to a few facts.

> 1 nobody kills scrapper 1v1

> 2 nobody kills scrapper 2v1 unless scrapper is bad

> 3 scrapper over the duration will decap you by knocking you back constantly

huh what? im pretty sure it is about those things those things are pretty important when used correctly.

Scrappers success was not from only knock backs as people have stunbreaks and stability for that. Its like making the assumption Trevor did that necro will just constantly be able to fear people off a point which is far from the truth of reality.

I dont agree considering i main necro and have also played all the other professions to some extent (some more than others) all of whom have some kind of damage ignoring tool, blocks, stealth, and or evades they make a massive difference in surviving and out right brawling in some cases. In some cases people wont even target you like they would a necro because on these other professions they know you have such tools to deny the damage or disengage

I just dont see necro being as effective as scrapper was especially considering the nerfs that are going to happy across the board to even necro itself. If it cant do it currently and a global damage nerf allows that to happen thats saying something about busted everyone else was in comparison to necromancer but no one will look at things this way.

> necro has same potential.

> bunker by having kitten ton of raw HP

And there is no problem with this considering it has no evades blocks etc

That said not everyone is going to fall into this play style but if it works and is viable without depending so heavily on boo corruption like right now im not sure thats a bad thing. Necro is going to have potential but just not as a bunker tank.

> spam weakness drains and other kitten to stonewall any 1v1

Weakness is being nerfed tho so i dont really want to hear this

> against 2v1 do kitten voodo magic to regain the shrud and run to kite ( while kiting you can push people off with fears and hit them through walls to discourage them from following )

Im not sure if this is a real complaint or just a joke tbh

Regardless most points are not that big to allow that much kiting if you actually want to defend them especially if you have ranged pressure in your kit and can start doing heavy damage before you even reach the point or have constant sticky pressure in your melee build like spellbreaker has with all its movement skills and magebane. Fears are also not as plentiful as people think they are because they like go ignore how they are drenched in boons but then complain about necro fear without the understanding of stability converts to fear. Weavers atm are especially infamous for doing this and complaining about necro fear while spamming stances and splattering aoe condi without the concept that each stance grants stability which can be punished by only necro. It works for every other profession they fight and because necro can counter it it makes necro op. **shrug**

In a 2v1 ideally the necormancer should have 0 way of winning and should fall within a reasonable time frame (Assuming the 2 players know how to play) i dont think it would last any longer than any other profession that makes a tank / bunker build in a 2v1 it just feels different because rather than dodging / blocking hits like the other 8 professions this 1 profession cannot. It fees off to see your hits land and not kill something as quick as you expect it to be killed.

> @"thepenmonster.3621" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > Who are these content creators that stopped?

>

> That Shaman hasn't posted an interlude dance video since forever!

Thats because youtube gets upset with him and says his videos are too short which makes it harder for him to post things like that.

Generally just follow his twitter for all his shamanistic cat consultant content ;)

I think the majority of core game is designed with the idea of play how you want to and so that content needs to be beatable no matter what a person used even while playing in a solo situation which is why early on the game was considered to be easy with no endgame content.

In came HoT which produced content that was for most professions was not solo playable by any means especially with just any build. Even now players struggle to solo some of the masteries in HoT with very specific builds and a understanding on how to play the profession of their choice. The content was built to be played with other players which lead people to calling it too hard.

In came PoF which i think made alot of trips going back and forth between the ease of core game play and HoT gameplay in terms of difficulty.

Now we are into the icebrood saga and for the most part of the content we have seen so far its mainly just like the core game you can pick any thing and go into this content and clear it most of it has minimal difficulty to it which at this point in the games age people expect.

The few thigns that do have moderate to high difficulty (some strike missions depending on if pugging or not) dont even give good enough rewards which is not encourage players to actively do them. The Grothmar strike was easy and has high potential in reward while the other two from what ive seen so far offer no spicy rewards despite the difficulty slowly scaling up.

Overall i think the game is currently catoring to new players and the play how you want to playstyle for the most part and its not content thats going to keep veteran players interested because its too easy.

In anets recent post they talked about going forward with living world content similar to back when scarlet was doing her things around the world which was difficult content at the time and it was some of the most fun content that the core game had to offer at the time. I would like to see more of that going forward. If you fail something difficult enough to make you want to beat it you will continue to play it if something is an easy wash it feels more like a waste of time to go do it. Balance this pls.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> After that I didint really have problems with that necro, I adjusted my playstyle against him but nevertheless, im worried about this kind of builds.

> i do NOT want the repeat of scrapper, raw HP as tanking is always hard to balance.

Well I'm slightly worried people want something nerfed that might not need to be especially if we are not talking about hitting everyones profession resources in terms of nerfs at the same time.

As far as scrapper i dont think necromancer has the potential to do what scrapper could as it had a lot more going on using a lot of tools necromancer does not have access too in general. Having things like stability far more boons, reflects, blocks, a possible invuln etc. Scrapper was just mad strong and that was in the current meta or one similar to it while necro in the current meta is not that strong especially while running such a tank build other wise it would already be meta and thus have been subject to nerfs without anyone having said anything.

Anet is never going to give necro evades or blocks the community has been asking for them long before scourge because every other profession has them and anet still refused to do so because they hold necro to a standard of being slow and resilient without those things.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > Guys, stop talking about the Necro damage and killing opponents, which is moot to my point made.

> > > > >

> > > > > What I was saying is that **it won't need to kill opponents while it tanks perpetually on a node and fears people off constantly for decap.**

> > > > >

> > > > > It's just going to be another situation that is as obnoxious as it could possibly be, similar to old-school engi decap or ventari tablet bunkers.

> > > > >

> > > > > This has nothing to do with if the Necromancer can kill you or not.

> > > >

> > > > Considering there is less stab, less long lasting stab for corruption, less instant corruption available, less corruption available in general,much less condi duration, and doom now having a cast time I think this should be less of an issue?

> > > >

> > >

> > > im afraid of scrapper v2.0

> > > i remember fighting scrapper, I remember dueling him for 2minutes, and his only strategy was to try to push me off the node from time to time to get 1 tick of decap.

> > > this kitten made me stop pvp.

> > > its one thing to have classes with overtuned damage/survi combo like holo used to be and another as old scrapper used to be.

> >

> > Necro doest have the tools, it's all health related and they can't avoid anything you throw. It won't be anywhere near.

> >

> > Though damage has been cut I think people are still underestimating how much of an abundance of damage there was before. You'll still be able to punch through shroud since they can't avoid anything at all. Necro has been stated to be an attrition based fighter and due to inflated damage that was rarely seen. I think it's going to be interesting to see it preforming in its designed role more.

> >

> > Necro will be relatively more tanky. More so than necro players think. But it won't be immortal like some people are making out. But will it be too tanky?

> >

> > I'd rather see first hand than try and speculate. I think there is a lot of knee jerk and overreacting going on at the moment to these notes. From all sides.

> >

>

> I would really like to believe you but time will tell, mb Im 100% wrong but if im not it will suck.

> TODAY while wighting weaver, I landed every single ability on my kit, on glass cannon berserker amulet mesmer, both sword and GS, everything.

> I was rewarded with weaver healing to full, after every single attack.

> by the end I had no cooldowns, and weaver was 100% hp with 20% hp barrier.

> I played around his every dodge, blink stunned him at the end of the dodge, delayed my combo to wait out another, knocked him into a wall so it would act as a stun and all that ment nothing, becouse he has full hp still.

> and I think necro could have the tools to do this too, 2 days ago I fought necro 2v1, he used his 100% hp shroud. tanked alot, dropped it. and somehow after 10s he had another 100% hp shroud, I dont know how he did it but the fact remains that he did.

> maybe its some stupid interaction for draining clones? but the fact is, in that 20s fight, me and rev had to chop throught 80k worth of HP.

Yea there is one build that does this and very few people have discovered it yet and in a 1v1 situation its very strong unless someone knows how to properly burst it.

I bet what you did was burst him in shroud because thats how necro is right now in most builds you just burst it at any point and its super effective. How ever this one build forces you to play like necro was before HoT. You have to wait for them to drop shroud and then burst them in that 10s window.

That said while this build does heal necromancer to full hp (if allowed enough time) its no where near as fast as weaver.

Also yes your mesmer clones can make for additional life force by massive amounts if he is running spectral armor as each clone counts as an individual which can strike meaning each time a clone hits during that armor up time he would gain 8% life force add in you and the rev also hitting him and thats a lot of life force. (if it was a renegade rev and he was using spirits thats also additional life force for just him summoning the spirts i dont know why thats a thing but it is) In the past people use to treat spectral armor like a warriors berserker stance because thats how effective it use to be. They simply avoided the necromancer till the armor effect expired to prevent giving them tons of life force of corse unless it was 4 people jumping on them at the start of a match.

Weaver can swap to water press 1 skill or 2 and do a water combo and its back to 100% But how did you fail to kill a weaver as a 1 shot mes? That build has the power to one shot me when im playing builds that have 20k hp or more some times with toughness but some how a weaver with 11k-13k hp didnt die but you landed every skill??? You have no idea how suspect this sounds in practice.

The necro build you fought heals over a long period of time and sacrifices for the most part a massive chunk of its offensive power (as it should) for that defensive capability.

Considering i know the load out to the setup the healing can take a very long period of time and is weak to high burst damage but strong against damage over time. Even now with lower cooldown stunbreaks (which are being increased) and access to a stunbreak on shroud entry (which is being removed) should any +1 jump in on said necro it will die reasonably fast especially if any cc is involved with locking it down.

So i have to ask did you and the rev defeat necro in the end still? I am honestly curious.

Were you condi Mirage or power one shot when you fought said necro?

Was rev or herald power or renegade?

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> As a Necro main, I shall give the fairest judgement to this thread.

>

> I agree that Necro shroud needs nerf in the coming balance. It is too tanky for its own good.

I might be inclined to agree with you after the patch drops only and we see how effective it is though if its effective but still dies quick enough any time multiple jump on it then its fine.

> I suggest to remove its innate 50% damage reduction so it becomes a lot less tanky.

Out of your darn mind?

Naturally life force generation would have to be massively increased for them to do this. At best they could reduce it to 33% or something down from 50% but removing it entirely would make reaper impossible to play with its higher lf cost when factored with incoming damage.

Imaging having a profession that cant avoid damage but rather soaks it and giving it a shroud mechanic with a resource that is removed when it takes damage. Now think about having 12k shroud stored up and someone (let alone multiple people) slapping you for about 2-4k and your shroud vanishes immediately. before you can cast the majority of its slow skills.

>

> However, we should be compensated by removing the shroud auto degeneration too and given a 7 seconds shroud cooldown.

This is never going to happen.

You are asking for a nerf with compensation to a profession that never gets both? This is not guardian lol. Its necro.

As some one else said this kind of only fits your own agenda if they wanted to bring this kinda of stuff back they would have done it by now its clear that the shrouds entry standard has become 10s to allow for that down time to counter-play how powerful shroud actually is and im ok with that. Maybe if shorter shroud entry is one of reapers perks i would be ok with that because its a melee spec with higher cost upkeep but even then thats super questionable.

If you want a shroud flashing play style just play scourge, take a big shade, and dont summon your shades so all the skill go off around you its effectively the same thing.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Guys, stop talking about the Necro damage and killing opponents, which is moot to my point made.

But you brought up the point of high dps in a previous post respectively or was that not a serious point?

> What I was saying is that **it won't need to kill opponents while it tanks perpetually on a node and fears people off constantly for decap.**

Necro does not have enough fears to constantly fear someone Let alone multiple people constantly. Most builds have 2 fears.... maybe 3 fears baked in to them at most. Any additional fear comes from boon coverts. IF you are silly enough to press/use something that gives you stability while fighting a necro then you deserved to be punished if you boon gets converted into fear.

With stability and converts being reduced we should theoretically see much less boon converted fears and if you are still getting boons converted constantly which do you define that as

- boon applicator making a bad play?

- Necro making a good play?

- Or Necro spamming boon converts?

But no really...

Staff fear is a 32s cd for a base 1s fear

Doom will be dodgable (more so than point blank shot probably but dont hold me to that but the tell is likely going to be more noticeable) only hits 1 person and has a modest cd with a minor learning curve.

Spectral ring depends on you to not hit the walls to not get feared while it limits mobility its not any different from any other kind of ring aoe that other professions have that cc you if you cross them.

Not sure where you you think its appropriate to combine the words Fear and Constantly together Tervor.

Even now fears shouldn't happen constantly unless the target is spamming stability in their rotation without thinking about it which happens a lot often than i think people realize then they are quick to call necro fears op but dont considering how dripping in boon they are to not be a problem.

> @"reikken.4961" said:

> wow tl;dr @ this discussion

>

> Anyway, shroud is necro's version of healing. everyone else's healing got nerfed. necro's didn't. What else is there to say?

TlDR ^ this makes no sense.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Jobe.8290" said:

> > Removing Foot in the Grave is a strong buff to Core Necro, the Stability was useless anyways :)

>

> It's not a buff when you replace something "useless" by something equally "useless".

>

> People weren't taking FitG despite it's usefulness and they won't take _eternal life_ either simply because there is no reason to take it at all. Some people seem to think that _eternal life_ will grant 20% LF whenever you leave the shroud, It most likely won't. In the end the trait will just be perceived as a trait that give prot when entering shroud and players will simply discard the idea of taking it when they can take free 30% crit chance and more crit damage.

Dadnir is some what correct here >.> this time...

Foot in the grave was a very niche trait that most people did not use a few times i have used it and rarely i see other people use it but its like a 3 people for every 10 necros thats about how often i see it. Ideally Eternal life has more value than foot in the grave did depending on what mode you play. In pvp it certainly has some value as you can now start matches not on 0% life force which could totally change how you load out your utility bar by 1 or 2 slots on your build. Having some life force to start in a match vs having none is likely going to change things.

Even now one of my life force starved builds that i like to play but usually does not because its so starved on life force generation can make more use of this trait than it could foot in the grave so it has a bit more use imo. But I still consider the loss of the breakstun fuction on shroud entry combined with the nerf to doom and increase to some break stuns an overall nerf not a buff.

Necro is getting a buff in the sense that the gap between damage soaking and damage evasion is getting smaller.

That comes from how everyone else is changed not so much how necro has changed.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > > > Core necro shroud functionality was nerfed. They put a cast time and 660ms reaction on Doom. That's 100% a functionality nerf.

> > > >

> > > > Life Blast and Life Transfer got the blanket coefficient nerfs, however I wouldn't be against Tainted Shackles and Dark Path receiving the same treatment as every other skill, then I think everything would be fine.

> > >

> > > I mean the LF total pool in conjunction with how much LF they can generate in very short durations of time. That stuff is directly tied to the idea of "sustain factor" just as much as healing stat is.

> >

> > Can you elaborate on "Life force generated in a short amount of time?"

> > How much is too much in a short amount of time and what amount of time to you qualifies as a short amount of time?

> >

> > I dont agree on the healing stat part though sorry.

>

> Do you not pay attention when you are against good Core Necros? You can bottom out a LF bar and then 9s later the Necro pops shroud at 100% again. there literally isn't anything that could qualify as "faster or in a shorter amount of time" than that.

Trevor I main a necro thats why im asking you what you think is too much too fast. And going forward its going to be a profession with very minimal active defense, super limited boon self boon table, almost no stability, and low mobility. So before you go screaming at life force gain which is used to power its soft defense and its most offensive abilities i want to here what you really have to say vs professions that all had things that necromancer did not and why you seem to think that necro deserves to be nerfed more despite having less from the start. Im not sure you understand that the balancing in this patch is not meant to be equal. Some professions as we were basically told right from the start were going to be nerfed more than others because respectively because they were mechanically superior than the others which makes sense.

Core necros generally do not go from 0 to 100% in 9s that simply does not happen especially without spectral armor or spectral grab landing and multiple people hitting them. Not to mention half if not most of all their active life force building tools can be dodged / avoided as most of them are tied to burst skills like axe 2 / scepter 3 / staff marks, spectra grasp etc.

There might be 1 particular core build i can think of that has very very high life force generation but at the same time its core necromancer. and is forced to make some heavy trades in its traits for obtaining such high life force generation. As far as most core builds are concerned the best thing it has going for it is boon corruption which is whats keeping it viable and why people are playing it in the boon soaked meta. Boon corruption is being nerfed and boons are being nerfed so its effectiveness is not going to be as strong as it is now. Scourge is unplayable in solo situations so people moved to core because it is the only other boon hate option. Lets not pretend like core suddenly got massive buffs and became major over night because thats not what happened or why people bother to play it.

>

> I guess the problem that I was trying to point out in this thread is that the LF % gains that Necros get for generation, are completely separate from the actual damage they deal. So even if a Necro attack deals barely any damage at all, if the tooltip says "This skill grants 15% LF" it will refill that LF bar by 15% of its total, when that low damage attack is used. <- This is insane to allow to stay this way in an upcoming patch that is supposed to address over buffed sustain tools game wide. The LF bar is health. I see people posting in here who seem to be wanting to work around that fact, but the LF is a health bar, and it is able to be regenerated to full in 9s over and over again. <- And this is something that is STRONGER while wearing things like Carrion/Rune of Speed, that grant a ton of vitality. Heal stat isn't advantageous for Core Necro, Vitality it is.

Well if shroud was only a sustain tool i might agree with some of this but its not. Its also most of necromancers offensive power as in some builds half their traits at any given time are not even active outside of shroud. Its both an offensive and defensive tool.

No skill alone generates 15% life force just to be clear. (im pretty sure you are just making an example though)

Fear of death (a trait) gives 15% life force when you apply a fear which can be dodged or out right denied depending on how the fear was applied if the target had stability or not. Now have you considered that part of that insane life force gain from the Fear of death trait comes from almost ever other class having so much stability access and necro punishing that boon as they should be attempting to?

At best case the biggest life force skill combo that you can make is Reapers Mark + Fear of death triggering which is 18% on a successful Fear. and that mark is on a 32s cd.

Scepter 3 is a burst skill that gives about 8% maybe a bit more if you run the scepter trait and land it on multiple people i think its 2% per extra target.

Axe 2 gives between 8-12% if all the strikes land which can be dodged to deny

Dagger has no life force gain other than on its auto attacks which are super weak and risky to go for.

When you say "weak skills that don't do any damage" which are you speaking of? I'm not sure how you are referencing that. Do you mean all necromancer skills are weak from your perspective or that a skills like axe 2 and scepter 3 are so weak that you dont consider them proper dps attacks worthy of generating life force despite them being some of the most offensive weapon skills outside of shroud that necro has to offer? I'm really struggling to understand you here. Does this also mean that all skills should be generating life force instead based on how much out going damage the skill is doing? If skills like Axe skill 2 and Scepter 3 are seen as weak to you when they are some of the hardest hitting skills necro has outside of its shroud what do you really want to do here?

Truth is most skills (in pvp settings) actually do not generate enough LF which is why more passive options where added in the first place like Signet Undeath/Fear of Death etc. If a necromancer goes from 0% to 100% in 9 seconds you made some critical errors in that fight or it took more than 9 seconds. Going forward **spectral armor** should be considered just as punishing as hitting another player with an aura on them as each hit every second from each individual grants the necromancer like 8 to 8.8% (depending on traits) life force or something like that. Simply don't hit them to deny them the life force gain then punish after. People use to have to do this before damage got out of hand then they forgot about it because it didn't matter anymore.

>

> Guys, this is already tanky in 1v1s NOW with very high DPS. When the DPS literally "drops through the floor to half of what it is now" it will be impossible to kill a good Necro 1v1. Even if you can do it over the course of time, it won't be worth the time wasted during a conquest match. And INB4 this "but CCs but CCs" that's the most hopeful apathetic thing I've heard in a very long time in this forum. What good is CC training a friggin 28k health death shroud with protection & carapace stacks on it, when you aren't dealing damage while doing it? At that point the Necro doesn't NEED stability because even if he gets Bull's Charged for 0 damage, he'll only eat 1 follow up attack and then be on his feet to move again. By the time 1 or 2 people are actually able to deal enough damage to a 28k protection/carapace Death Shroud to bottom it out, or by the time they wait it out, it will have been long enough to where all of those Shroud regeneration skills are ALL off CD again.

You consider core carrion high dps? Does it kill you near instantly? Or do you have a long period of time to fight it? Necro has some of the slowest condition ramp in the game truthfully those days left with condi reaper and scourge its never going to instantly stack 20+ bleeds or 20+ torment on you like some other professions can do. The only quick ramp that could possibly be in this setup would be Fear dealing damage (which is where the majority of the damage comes form in those kinds of builds). If you are boon spamming and getting punished for it then that means you are too dependent on boons. With boons and corrupts being more rare you can and should expect less fears from boon corruptions and doom will be dodgeable due it having just over half a second tell before it strikes.

The point of locking a necro down with cc is so it cant use its skills even in shroud if its cc'ed it cant attack you. It also cannot break the stuns unless it exits shroud (its safest and most offensive form) to use a break stun as they do not have utility access in shroud. Many necromancer builds depend on their ability to attack their foes if you stop them from attacking then you ideally can shut them down. A good example of this is reaper with blighters boon. If you stop them from attacking they wont gain any might because they are not hitting anything or swinging their weapon which stops the incoming healing bonus from blighter boon.

Secondly

> It's going to be a situation where if a player or players cannot kill the Necro during his 9s vulnerability phase in between Shroud cycles, welp gg. Because that's going to be the only kill opportunity you'll get on it at all. Trying to pummel at & bottom out the Death Shroud is going to become a great way to find yourself losing to attrition.

Yeah thats generally always been a thing and this is how the game use to be before everyone's damage gout out of hand. I think you might want to start practicing how to bust a necro when they drop shroud vs just bursting them at any time because over tuned dps allows that right now.

Ive ran tank builds before and you know how people beat me on them by slowly learning when to properly go for a burst and when not to. The first few times they go for burst at any time because they can. They think its normal necro and that they can burst it at any point willy nilly. If they think they usually figure out to go for burst after shroud drops.

>

> And I love this "But it doesn't have stability" as if it didn't have triple stun break utility bar, an elite that grants it stability, and a bunch of boon rips to remove opponent stability & convert it into Fear, in conjunction with a roster of heavy AoE Fear CC that keeps people away from it to begin with.

Thats interesting because....

Rangers run these kinds of triple breakstun setups with EVADES Skills, AND BLOCKS, AND STEALTH ACCESS, AND STABILITY! HIGH MOBILITY AND A WIDER BOON TABLE!!!???

I dont understand why you think its fair to even call this out. We run double or triple breakstuns on our bars because "we have to!" other wise we are free! Spectral mastery was also removed some time ago along with our only passive stun break when the complaints of everyone has too many passive "get out of jail free cards" which is why necro did not get a nerf to any passive that would auto break stun or deny a cc on incoming cc application because we dont have any of those things anymore. We have 2 dodges at any given time and no instant/immediate vigor access and no traits to regenerate endurance faster so take what you will from that. Also most builds run 2 break stuns on their bar not three usually corrupt boon or spectral ring fills one of those slots >.>other wise you dont have enough boon hate to deal with people instantly replenishing their boons.

>

> I'm just saying, it might not be able beat you up and kill you real easily, but you won't be able to get a Core Necro off a node 1v1 after this patch. You'd need something built for it like a Decap Engi abusing the hell out of Throw Land Mine or a Ventari Rev. I'm telling you, this Core Necro side node will drive the meta in the same way Fire Weaver drove meta. People will have to resort to other methods outside of DPS to be able to deal with impending Core Necro Side Node. That or ignore it and only ever engage it if 2v1.

Im pretty sure if people take proper cc they can force it off a node. Its also not right to assume that every necro will be that tanky most people likely will still perfer more offensive builds. Not to mention Unlike weaver necro does not have evades and stability. Or insane pulsating damage that loads you up with 12 burn stacks in a few seconds It should be far easier to literally push them off the node.

>

> Maybe a good idea to lower the LF regen from these skills in a pvp/wvw split, or reduce the total LF health bar in pvp/wvw on Core Necro. Mind you I am only speaking of Core Necro. I feel that Reaper/Scourge will find a good balance point post patch. Core Necro Shroud's fuel tank is just way way way to deep at this point though, and it's going to show post patch.

You need to be specific with which skills because any skills you cut back at a core level directly effects reaper and scourge lowering their potential too.

Even staff has 0% life force gain on its marks unless you take a trait and its suppose to be a utility weapon with the ideal goal of generating LF. But it fails to do that without a trait.

Overall if life force needs to be reduced a bit after the patch im all for it but not on the weapon skills as that hurts every elite in in necros options.

At best the passive gain tools can be revisited like Signet of Undeath / Fear of death.

If a trait like Eternal Life had been baked into necromancer's core design without the need of having to take a trait for it then we wouldn't have needed the increases to things like Fear of death and Signet of undeath in the first place.

@"Master Ketsu.4569"

I think they are solving some problems and not others as effectively.

Ideally things like global pass for most ccs to not do big damage is a good change in a lot of other games cc skills dont do tons of damage because of the fact that they disable another character allowing them to be hit with something else that does big damage.

Lowering damage mods. to a standard in competitive modes is nice change using the 2.0 modifier and based the number on how many things a skill does in relation to just damage is a good change.

Gw2 got way out of hand with kill potential after HoT bunker meta and i hate that to be honest. I was all for more damage but then it just kept going and kept going and kept goin and going to the point that half the professions in the game have the option to one shot someone regardless of their build in roughly a second. Boons also got so far out of hand that profession elites like scourge were designed with boon corrupts on every single utility including the heal which was just disgusting.

An example of a good but over the top change was

In weavers case twist of fate did not need a cooldown increase, the trait that gave it and other stances stability just needed to be changed so that it left some wiggle room and didnt allow them to pressure super safely all the time to everything but necro with boon corrupts when using stances. Which was accomplished by the change to the trait and making it give barrier instead. Now a well timed cc can shut them down if they just brainlessly use twist of fate or any other stance. This is one example of many others i saw in the whole list that i thought was over done. There was no need for the cd increase on ToF cause the issue was technically fixed by trait design.

An example of also solving a problem could be seen as

Warriors who did need "some" might nerfs (because every one got them i consider it a bit more fair) and a trait like Might makes Right also needed a "fair" shave so that one line was not providing offensive power and decent sustain. Something players in the past have judged other professions for having and deemed such things be nerfed (which they usually were). This also prevents 1 build from excelling in both aspects of offensive and defense well enough to competitively fight most matchups in the game. Now warriors ideally need more or less to go back to defense for more proper sustain which leads to a damage or utility loss or going for damage which wont allow them to have hyper sustain at the same time. The have to make an active choice

An example of not solving any problem was just over kill

As you pointed out was the warrior endure pain change i dont even agree with this and im not sure who thought it would be good idea to put on a 300s cooldown with no other effects. It was ok to do something like this to an extent to a trait like "Last Stand" (which im still not sure needs a 300s cd) but at least it provides another effect that can be used with active stances throughout an entire match. But with Endure pain that was not the case and this cd change is over kill.

The notes are full of good changes that are on point and ideally do solve a lot of problems and full of questionable ones like "Why though?"

> @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

>

> I agree with you and @"Yasai.3549" though. It's really just slowing down the same thing.

> Being slow paced != more new user-friendly like they think it does. More slow paced = more boring.

Dont agree with this several times i have i seen new people going into pvp not understanding whats going on because something kills them and blinks away in less than 3 seconds and there was no tell or they dont understand how their own boon spamming can be punished by something like necromancer because all they know is go go go attack attack attack because the game allows that to work in the majority of situations (depending on the profession)

To be clear i dont want the game to slow down to before HoT days but the game could stand to slow down a tid bit from where it is now without killing it. I thought gw2 was fast action back then after all compared to most other games i had played and i think if it slows down from where it is now it will still be faster than most of the other modern or on going mmos you could play today.

>

> This is why I think a PTR would be amazing for this game.

I do agree with this however a PTR would save them a lot of trouble possibly but this is a double edged sword. The feedback of the community could ruin 1 or 2 professions long term. Rev was kind of a back and forth victim of this back when we had Public test characters to try out the new elites. Its also how low key strong professions that are not understood in the short testing time frame get over buffed due to feedback then end up over-performing in the long term.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Jobe.8290" said:

> > > > > > > > Bunker Core Necro is going to be unkillable :)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I already see 1 guy that plays menders + wells core necro and he is already labeled a bot due to the fact that he will undoubtedly push far at start of match and just sit on node. I’m surprised this isn’t meta already

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Because if your team actually focuses him properly he will still die. if one person goes to kill him in a 1v1 it might take a while sure but in a 1 v any number of people it should still die like immediately. Thats why its not meta.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > > > * Negative 33% damage game wide

> > > > > > This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> > > > > > > * Hard CCs going to 0 damage output

> > > > > > This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> > > > > > > * Quickness access/uptime being massively reduced, leading into far less DPS potential upon even the above nerfs

> > > > > > This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> > > > > > > * Healing game wide -33%

> > > > > > This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> > > > > > > * **Core Necro Shroud mechanics untouched**

> > > > > > Pets largely remained largely untouched (any pet dps nerfs can be equal to things like shatter dps nerfs and shroud skills that were nerfed mechanically pets didnt change though.)

> > > > > > Stealth was untouched

> > > > > > Revs Energy gain/loss is untouched

> > > > > > Clones / Phantoms at base are untouched

> > > > > > Tool belt functionality is untouched

> > > > > > Adrenaline is untouched

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Do you see the pattern here?

> > > > > > If they touch shroud expect pets and everything above to be touched too for the record.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you thought Core Necro was tanky now, put your seatbelt on and prepare yourselves for nearly invulnerable Fear Decapping Core Necro Bunkers.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Many people dont think necro is tanky especially when its focused first but i would rather be tanky if that keeps me viable over depending purely boon corruption which is what the current meta is and its disgusting. I would say get use to necros being ping pong balls but also not being inherently free kills cause you looked at them or one touched them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We can remain squishy if you are ok with giving necromancers, blocks, evades, and a invuln that prevents one or both types of incoming damage completely to both their hp an their shroud bar oh also we will need stability again too.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Either make damage soaking for necro near equivalent to damage avoidance which is how necromancer is designed (necro does not have this options for damage blocking or damage avoidance) or give necro the same tools as every other profession. Pick one!

> > > > > > - Free as everyone else but has damage block/ evasion like everyone else.

> > > > > > - Soaks everything and can take more hits than everyone else but cant avoid the damage.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > You clearly missed the point. Just remember how busted menders Druid was with 1 pet running around, now multiply that by 5 that’s how busted side node necro is

> > > >

> > > > You clearly missed how minions are not as effective as pets though? Have you tried using aoe to kill the pets? Have you tried focusing the necormancer with a friend or as your team should?

> > > > You do realize that unlike druid necromancer does not have a button that will stealth them upon exiting a certain mode giving time for disengage or repositioning. At best the might have wurm hidden some place which removes that minion count from 5 down to 4 depending on where they placed it.

> > > >

> > > > Like i said there is a reason this is not meta yet because it can be shut down easily if a necro does this on your home point your team should be able to force it out or kill it with proper focusing as you would any necro. Unlike menders druid it lacks blocks, evades, and stealth.

> > > > If this happens on the mid point same thing

> > > > If this happens on far and you own home and mid why are you going to far to fight a mender bunker in a 1v1 where you dont have the tools or dps to win

> > > > Thats not making the most of your role especially if you own 2/3 points (this is an example of course)

> > > >

> > > > Now if the necromancer has a firebrand or something support them then you cant only fault the necro in those instances. If the necormancer has some one peeling for them you cant only fault the necromancer in those instances

> > >

> > > You obviously didn’t read Trevor guide. Just kite if your sitting on node ur gonna get 1 shot

> >

> > lmao so whats the problem with necro sustain again if you can just one shot it on a node with minions around it?

> It’s just u didn’t seem to understand from the start you even claim it would be really good 1v1 but not at holding node 1vx. Ur not really supposed to hold node 1vx, necro also has some of the best skills in the game for kiting. If it’s possible for a bunker necro to dominate 1v1s it might end up really strong and if they cannot kite away with spectral walk and a new health bar that might just be a l2p issue. Again who knows what’ll be meta but with patch notes necro is clearly making a come back and it’s just kind of silly to say o wait a necro shouldn’t be able to 1vx on a node, when I don’t think there are any classes rn that can anyways...

> U get it yet?

>

Well i dont think any profession should be able to 1vx on a node for any long period of time to be honest with you thats should not be feasible no matter what you are playing which is why i said that. Before or after the patch that simply should not happen so i think its not silly to say that much.

Necro is also known for being focused first and that will never change until either it becomes strong enough to make a team question if they really need to focus it first or it gains the evasiveness or hard defenses that everyone else has that keeps them from wanting to be targeted first.

If necro reaches a point where its not always the "default" first target in a fight simply because it cant run away then in my opinion this is a good thing. You should question if you really need to focus the necro first or if the support or damage dealers on the other team are more important to focus on. IF a necro can stall long enough (even if it dies) that its teammates killed your team in the end for focusing on it when you should have played a different angle then thats a good thing.

Lastly I didnt claim it would be good or "really good" those are you words not mine. Necro in general is known to be one of the worst 1v1 professions in the game which is why in 1v1 situations most other professions can easily shut it down with ease. I just think after the patch it wont be as "free" in a lot of 1v1 situations as it is now because overall damage has dropped and the nature of how its designed will shine a bit better and be more on par with damage avoidance vs right now where the shroud can be nuked by 1 skill (in some cases a cc skill)

In terms of kiting tools i dont agree there are better kiting tools on other professions but thats my personal opinion and im entitled to it but it does not make it true but that also means your statement about them having some of the best kiting tools is also not a true statement but you certainly have the right to claim such if you consider that. I think their tools are "good" but not "the best" If chill and cripple still effected movement abilities i might consider things like "spectral walk" the best

I dont think a true bunker necro can dominate anything in 1v1 unless the aggressor over extends purposely or makes lots of mistakes.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"Chaith.8256" said:

> > Core necro shroud functionality was nerfed. They put a cast time and 660ms reaction on Doom. That's 100% a functionality nerf.

> >

> > Life Blast and Life Transfer got the blanket coefficient nerfs, however I wouldn't be against Tainted Shackles and Dark Path receiving the same treatment as every other skill, then I think everything would be fine.

>

> I mean the LF total pool in conjunction with how much LF they can generate in very short durations of time. That stuff is directly tied to the idea of "sustain factor" just as much as healing stat is.

Can you elaborate on "Life force generated in a short amount of time?"

How much is too much in a short amount of time and what amount of time to you qualifies as a short amount of time?

I dont agree on the healing stat part though sorry.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > > > > @"Jobe.8290" said:

> > > > > > Bunker Core Necro is going to be unkillable :)

> > > > >

> > > > > I already see 1 guy that plays menders + wells core necro and he is already labeled a bot due to the fact that he will undoubtedly push far at start of match and just sit on node. I’m surprised this isn’t meta already

> > > >

> > > > Because if your team actually focuses him properly he will still die. if one person goes to kill him in a 1v1 it might take a while sure but in a 1 v any number of people it should still die like immediately. Thats why its not meta.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > > * Negative 33% damage game wide

> > > > This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> > > > > * Hard CCs going to 0 damage output

> > > > This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> > > > > * Quickness access/uptime being massively reduced, leading into far less DPS potential upon even the above nerfs

> > > > This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> > > > > * Healing game wide -33%

> > > > This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> > > > > * **Core Necro Shroud mechanics untouched**

> > > > Pets largely remained largely untouched (any pet dps nerfs can be equal to things like shatter dps nerfs and shroud skills that were nerfed mechanically pets didnt change though.)

> > > > Stealth was untouched

> > > > Revs Energy gain/loss is untouched

> > > > Clones / Phantoms at base are untouched

> > > > Tool belt functionality is untouched

> > > > Adrenaline is untouched

> > > >

> > > > Do you see the pattern here?

> > > > If they touch shroud expect pets and everything above to be touched too for the record.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you thought Core Necro was tanky now, put your seatbelt on and prepare yourselves for nearly invulnerable Fear Decapping Core Necro Bunkers.

> > > >

> > > > Many people dont think necro is tanky especially when its focused first but i would rather be tanky if that keeps me viable over depending purely boon corruption which is what the current meta is and its disgusting. I would say get use to necros being ping pong balls but also not being inherently free kills cause you looked at them or one touched them.

> > > >

> > > > We can remain squishy if you are ok with giving necromancers, blocks, evades, and a invuln that prevents one or both types of incoming damage completely to both their hp an their shroud bar oh also we will need stability again too.

> > > >

> > > > Either make damage soaking for necro near equivalent to damage avoidance which is how necromancer is designed (necro does not have this options for damage blocking or damage avoidance) or give necro the same tools as every other profession. Pick one!

> > > > - Free as everyone else but has damage block/ evasion like everyone else.

> > > > - Soaks everything and can take more hits than everyone else but cant avoid the damage.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > You clearly missed the point. Just remember how busted menders Druid was with 1 pet running around, now multiply that by 5 that’s how busted side node necro is

> >

> > You clearly missed how minions are not as effective as pets though? Have you tried using aoe to kill the pets? Have you tried focusing the necormancer with a friend or as your team should?

> > You do realize that unlike druid necromancer does not have a button that will stealth them upon exiting a certain mode giving time for disengage or repositioning. At best the might have wurm hidden some place which removes that minion count from 5 down to 4 depending on where they placed it.

> >

> > Like i said there is a reason this is not meta yet because it can be shut down easily if a necro does this on your home point your team should be able to force it out or kill it with proper focusing as you would any necro. Unlike menders druid it lacks blocks, evades, and stealth.

> > If this happens on the mid point same thing

> > If this happens on far and you own home and mid why are you going to far to fight a mender bunker in a 1v1 where you dont have the tools or dps to win

> > Thats not making the most of your role especially if you own 2/3 points (this is an example of course)

> >

> > Now if the necromancer has a firebrand or something support them then you cant only fault the necro in those instances. If the necormancer has some one peeling for them you cant only fault the necromancer in those instances

>

> You obviously didn’t read Trevor guide. Just kite if your sitting on node ur gonna get 1 shot

lmao so whats the problem with necro sustain again if you can just one shot it on a node with minions around it?

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > > > @"Jobe.8290" said:

> > > > Bunker Core Necro is going to be unkillable :)

> > >

> > > I already see 1 guy that plays menders + wells core necro and he is already labeled a bot due to the fact that he will undoubtedly push far at start of match and just sit on node. I’m surprised this isn’t meta already

> >

> > Because if your team actually focuses him properly he will still die. if one person goes to kill him in a 1v1 it might take a while sure but in a 1 v any number of people it should still die like immediately. Thats why its not meta.

> >

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > * Negative 33% damage game wide

> > This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> > > * Hard CCs going to 0 damage output

> > This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> > > * Quickness access/uptime being massively reduced, leading into far less DPS potential upon even the above nerfs

> > This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> > > * Healing game wide -33%

> > This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> > > * **Core Necro Shroud mechanics untouched**

> > Pets largely remained largely untouched (any pet dps nerfs can be equal to things like shatter dps nerfs and shroud skills that were nerfed mechanically pets didnt change though.)

> > Stealth was untouched

> > Revs Energy gain/loss is untouched

> > Clones / Phantoms at base are untouched

> > Tool belt functionality is untouched

> > Adrenaline is untouched

> >

> > Do you see the pattern here?

> > If they touch shroud expect pets and everything above to be touched too for the record.

> > >

> > > If you thought Core Necro was tanky now, put your seatbelt on and prepare yourselves for nearly invulnerable Fear Decapping Core Necro Bunkers.

> >

> > Many people dont think necro is tanky especially when its focused first but i would rather be tanky if that keeps me viable over depending purely boon corruption which is what the current meta is and its disgusting. I would say get use to necros being ping pong balls but also not being inherently free kills cause you looked at them or one touched them.

> >

> > We can remain squishy if you are ok with giving necromancers, blocks, evades, and a invuln that prevents one or both types of incoming damage completely to both their hp an their shroud bar oh also we will need stability again too.

> >

> > Either make damage soaking for necro near equivalent to damage avoidance which is how necromancer is designed (necro does not have this options for damage blocking or damage avoidance) or give necro the same tools as every other profession. Pick one!

> > - Free as everyone else but has damage block/ evasion like everyone else.

> > - Soaks everything and can take more hits than everyone else but cant avoid the damage.

> >

> >

>

> You clearly missed the point. Just remember how busted menders Druid was with 1 pet running around, now multiply that by 5 that’s how busted side node necro is

You clearly missed how minions are not as effective as pets though? Have you tried using aoe to kill the pets? Have you tried focusing the necormancer with a friend or as your team should?

You do realize that unlike druid necromancer does not have a button that will stealth them upon exiting a certain mode giving time for disengage or repositioning. At best the might have wurm hidden some place which removes that minion count from 5 down to 4 depending on where they placed it.

Like i said there is a reason this is not meta yet because it can be shut down easily if a necro does this on your home point your team should be able to force it out or kill it with proper focusing as you would any necro. Unlike menders druid it lacks blocks, evades, and stealth.

If this happens on the mid point same thing

If this happens on far and you own home and mid why are you going to far to fight a mender bunker in a 1v1 where you dont have the tools or dps to win

Thats not making the most of your role especially if you own 2/3 points (this is an example of course)

Now if the necromancer has a firebrand or something support them then you cant only fault the necro in those instances. If the necormancer has some one peeling for them you cant only fault the necromancer in those instances

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"ZDragon.3046" you dont get it.

> people lost their sustain be it evading or healing. and damage.

> necro didnt lose its sustain ( shroud )

So should we consider stealth a part of thief sustain? If so it was also not touched yet correct?

What about Revs energy the stuff they use for both their offensive and defensive skills?

-minor edit-

Do we count Doom nerf and stability losses that were/are tied to shroud as sustain nerfs or no?

There was probably reason shroud has not changed (other than damage nerfs across all the skills) could it be that necro was not over-tuned in those categories to start with?

Since when has anyone taken an issue with necromancer healing skills outside of well of blood revival speed (which is being nerfed btw)

Necromancer didnt have evades to lose so you cant really make points there it lacked already what everyone else had.

Necromancer also lost damage with everyone else so this is not a factor you can use against them either.

Shroud sustain was never on par with pure damage evasion and or blocking either if it was it would have been nerfed and eve now it still might be in some aspect

The difference between soaking a 8k or 10k hit and just avoiding it is night and day and necro lacked the power to avoid damage with any other skill other than its base dodges. And it still will lack the power to do that even more so than before.

So as i said pick one

Let necros be ping pong balls but able to take more hits than other professions normally would before death (its going to feel odd for sure) because they dont have additional options to avoid damage

Or

Give them the proper tools to avoid/deny the damage and stability access like all other professions and cut their shroud down to just being a damage tool.

Im fine with either option, but we cannot be a between both where shroud does not effectively work on par with damage soaking vs damage avoidance while also not giving them damage avoidance tools.

The gap between a profession that depends on not evading everything and one that does need to evade should not be as big as it is now. Damage soaking right now is highly unviable for the dps that each profession has in its kit let alone multiple ones targeting you at the same time. Thats why even now you still have people even this post considering necro's as "food" Because you can look at them and cough to effectively shut them down if you really know what you are doing.

Im looking forward to builds that dont need to depend on running mass boon corruption splattering to be viable actually. I never liked that most of necro's viability at the moment is depedent upon mass boon corruption.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> It saddens me that no ones even talking about being threatened by warriors post patch, not even jokes about it :(

> Godd damnn no damage on cc changes lol.

> If they weren't designed so much around hard cc ud all be scared, so very scared lol

ITs because they lost their broken might gain without the might splattering they lose a bit of everything, damage and healing.

I think warriors will still be plenty scary especially spellbreakers imo. Without the might gain warriors would have been seen as closer to balanced and now that thats ideally being fixed there is no reason to really call out warriors.

Warriors now dont get everything in one build that does well against the majority. IF you want more damage you dont get good sustain anymore. IF you want more sustain you dont get to keep leathal levels of damage which is how it should be.

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"Jobe.8290" said:

> > Bunker Core Necro is going to be unkillable :)

>

> I already see 1 guy that plays menders + wells core necro and he is already labeled a bot due to the fact that he will undoubtedly push far at start of match and just sit on node. I’m surprised this isn’t meta already

Because if your team actually focuses him properly he will still die. if one person goes to kill him in a 1v1 it might take a while sure but in a 1 v any number of people it should still die like immediately. Thats why its not meta.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> * Negative 33% damage game wide

This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> * Hard CCs going to 0 damage output

This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> * Quickness access/uptime being massively reduced, leading into far less DPS potential upon even the above nerfs

This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> * Healing game wide -33%

This has a impact on everyone not just necro this is not relevant to the title

> * **Core Necro Shroud mechanics untouched**

Pets largely remained largely untouched (any pet dps nerfs can be equal to things like shatter dps nerfs and shroud skills that were nerfed mechanically pets didnt change though.)

Stealth was untouched

Revs Energy gain/loss is untouched

Clones / Phantoms at base are untouched

Tool belt functionality is untouched

Adrenaline is untouched

Do you see the pattern here?

If they touch shroud expect pets and everything above to be touched too for the record.

>

> If you thought Core Necro was tanky now, put your seatbelt on and prepare yourselves for nearly invulnerable Fear Decapping Core Necro Bunkers.

Many people dont think necro is tanky especially when its focused first but i would rather be tanky if that keeps me viable over depending purely boon corruption which is what the current meta is and its disgusting. I would say get use to necros being ping pong balls but also not being inherently free kills cause you looked at them or one touched them.

We can remain squishy if you are ok with giving necromancers, blocks, evades, and a invuln that prevents one or both types of incoming damage completely to both their hp an their shroud bar oh also we will need stability again too.

Either make damage soaking for necro near equivalent to damage avoidance which is how necromancer is designed (necro does not have this options for damage blocking or damage avoidance) or give necro the same tools as every other profession. Pick one!

- Free as everyone else but has damage block/ evasion like everyone else.

- Soaks everything and can take more hits than everyone else but cant avoid the damage.

> @"Quadox.7834" said:

> Please can we get smoke screen on mesmer as well instead of feedback pleasepleasepleaseplease.

play necro you get well of darkness... :+1: problem solved

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: Sadly i don't agree with your example of **("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")**

> > > > Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).

> > >

> > > It's not about the healing. It's about how the trait is there to incentivize certain play styles. Right now it's akin to getting the bonus damage from Physicals without taking a physical on warrior. Or the bonus endurance on Daredevil physicals without taking a daredevil physical. Or the condition cleanse from Wilderness Survival without taking a single survival skill. Or the clone on Self Deception without taking a single deception skill. Unlike the previously mentioned traits, Leeching Venoms actually does allow for you to reap the bonuses of a certain utility type and playstyle without even taking any of said utilities.

> >

> > Yes but a thief is not a warrior and the damage is not that so significant to the point that its the direct cause of a 1 shot backstab only one instant of venom is used per attack a few hundred points of damage along side that 10-15k damage???

>

> _Several thousand_ damage alongside a skill that's slated for general damage reduction alongside everything else. And if we're being real backstab requires skill and deserves high (though certainly not one shot) levels of damage. Life steal due to venom stacks automatically procing from stealth does not require skill.

Once again consider the time it takes to gain those stacks is it really that strong based on that. 15 seconds for few hundred at best maybe a few thousand points of potential healing or thousand damage assuming max stacks which at base requires 15 seconds of stealth time + resources to enter / maintain that stealth? You also just said it was not about the healing portion in your recent statement so i dont understand to call out the skill requirement around the life steal portion.

IF you are going to make skill arguments though then you are opening up a massive can of worms so i would like to avoid that if possible i dont think thats a fair argument to settle on as it will only lead to people poking at things you might use in your builds as to how they are not skillful, it generally not a healthy argument to start. So lets not go calling what is or is not skilled because it starts headache inducing arguments about who has the most petty skill/trait functionality on assumptions on what you think contributes the most to your losses against a certain build or profession.

> > A few of your examples are actually possible to perform by the way on other professions.

> > The warrior example use to be possible

> > The ranger example is still possible though you would only get one activation every so often

>

>

> "Every so often" AKA Taking falling damage to proc the fall damage trait or casting a 20 second+ cooldown healing skill and procing lesser muddy terrain, and not literally _every single time you enter stealth_ which you can do freely, permanently with no cooldown like you currently can with the Shadow Arts life siphon trait on DP.

As i said the problem is not with leeching venoms its with stealth which is universally busted and needs reworking. It lacks the natural level of counter play that can be found in other games but if it was similar to other games you should expect to see skills like smokescreen etc things that specifically allow a thief to fight outside of stealth without being instantly melted become more effective.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said: Sadly i don't agree with your example of **("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")**

> > Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).

>

> It's not about the healing. It's about how the trait is there to incentivize certain play styles. Right now it's akin to getting the bonus damage from Physicals without taking a physical on warrior. Or the bonus endurance on Daredevil physicals without taking a daredevil physical. Or the condition cleanse from Wilderness Survival without taking a single survival skill. Or the clone on Self Deception without taking a single deception skill. Unlike the previously mentioned traits, Leeching Venoms actually does allow for you to reap the bonuses of a certain utility type and playstyle without even taking any of said utilities.

Yes but a thief is not a warrior and the damage is not that so significant to the point that its the direct cause of a 1 shot backstab only one instant of venom is used per attack a few hundred points of damage along side that 10-15k damage???

A few of your examples are actually possible to perform by the way on other professions.

The warrior example use to be possible

The ranger example is still possible though you would only get one activation every so often

I feel like traits like this are super unique and give a bit of identity to the profession not to mention using the active venoms alone leaves a thief with 1 less critical utility for a condi burst that will be clensed and have a massive down time. We also need to consider the cost and time it takes to get to max stacks at minimum 15 seconds for a full 6 stack assuming you get 1 stack immediately on entry. +what ever tools you used to gain stealth access.

To be honest with you this still feels like nit picking something thats not at all the main problem with the reason as to why you called it out.

**Infiltrator's Strike**

I agree this needs to be looked into mostly the return part of it i always said making it so that if the initiating strike was dodged then either the return skill gets a cd or cost more or does not happen at all. But those are just my ideas either way this is probably the main skill that causes the most frustration for people.

**Escapist's Fortitude**

I do not agree simply because

- its unique to daredevil only its not something every thief build can take

- daredevil has naturally been pushed to have stronger prowess in melee ranger than base thief and deadeye

- thief in general has pretty low condi cleanse and the trait fits perfectly on a profession built around evading attacks

To be blunt daredevils wouldnt run this if mesmers/mirage condition application pressure was not **"Constantly incoming"** if it played like a proper burst class and had much weaker down times between its higher bursting applications then thieves would probably opt more for. Brawler's Tenacity or only using core cleanses. like the signet and withdraw etc.

Lets also consider Mirage's new **Elusive Mind** going forward which will **clear 2 conditions** for pressing evade regardless if you actually dodged an attack as where escapist at least requires you to dodge something for a single condition.

**Smoke Screen**

The nerfs in play here are already fine.

There are several ways to attack a thief through this unfortunately mesmer only has a couple. Like scepter 3 and GS auto. Heck even GS5 can push them clean out of it assuming you are not standing inside of it.

Generally using either unblockable projectiles or melee attack that hits rapidly will allow you to easily hit the thief inside and force them out. By no means is this a invulnerability. This skills aoe range gives thief more pressure in team fights allowing them to actually brawl a bit vs only being a +1.

Skills like: Reapers shroud 4, Rangers off hand axe 5, Warriors gs 2 and 3, etc

All of which will cleave a thief inside while even standing inside due to the rapid hits

Ideally the way the skill is being nerfed it will be fine. While it does cover an entire node it also deals no damage which is not the same node issue like we saw with scourge shades so i cant agree with nerfing it anymore till after patch changes. IF its the only skill a thief has outside of dagger storm thats good for team support and team fighting let them keep that.

**Leeching Venoms**

Ok this one is kind of up in the air for me i think that auto stacking in stealth is fine but i feel like producing a cap on he max number of passive stacks is more appropriate. Simply cut the number of passive stacks from 6 to 3.

1 stack on entry and up to 2 more over time at most even then im not sure they even need to do this cause this trait is not main the problem with 1 shot backstab thief.

Sadly i don't agree with your example of **("It's akin to getting the bonus healing from Monk's Focus without actually taking a single meditation.")**

Because the healing from meditations and the healing from leeching venoms is quite a bit of a stretch apart, combined with the fact that they also need land hits to get the leeching effect vs meditations which can just be fired off for healing regardless if they hit a target or not (for the few that do damage).

Ideally im not sure if this is even a problem this one honestly it really sounded like you nit picked something randomly out of the shadow-arts line to me. Thats just how it feels based on how its written. One shot D/P thief existed before this trait worked this way so i cant even give you the statement of **("This trait has enabled seriously degenerate builds, namely permanent stealth one shot DP thief.")** because that was already a thing.

**Closing opinion**

So long as 1 shot anything from stealth regardless of the profession is removed from the game everything else thief for the most part has is going to be fine. Stealth in general needs adjustments for all professions not just thief so i wont simply point the finger at them for that the mechanic. In general is just a bit unfair because it lacks the standard built in detections that other games have no matter who uses it... thief, mesmer, ranger. etc

The only real skill that i think your post has any weight to focus on is **Infiltrator's Strike** as it is a problematic blink in and out which goes through obstructions with almost no limitations and has no punishing aspect for how fast the game plays now. In truth the skill use to be worse than this when the return was instant but now its clear that it needs to be looked at again. Still lets wait to see how damage overall looks after the nerfs.

Because you and several other people here are also mesmer mains or play that profession of choice quite a lot (nothing wrong with that by the way) i think its worth mentioning that if other players of other professions dont feel the same way about all of the key points you put out then its probably just your counter. Im not sure it needs to be said but mesmers have been longing for thief nerfs really hard for a long time and even more so now as of late because its one of the few professions that easily deals with them if the thief knows how to play. In almost every other match up mesmer holds the dueling advantage especially on a side node. If one profession can best them with the advantage but not have the advantage in the other 6-7 cases then that seems totally fine to me.

Even as a necro main who is also countered hard by thief i feel like some of your key points you want nerfed her are totally unnecessary.

I have also played thief and daredevil and know how hard that profession has it when it comes to a wide range of matchups and how easy it is to have some one counter half your whole mechanic with a single button press. Literally other than **Infiltrator's Strike** your nerf points are a bit out of line.