ZDragon.3046

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"ZDragon.3046" THis is exactly what balancing is.

> There is too much reward in this ability without accounting for proj hate. So it kitten you if you dont have proj, and EXPECIALLY kitten you if you do have projectiles.

Sorry no if you chose to be projectile based you shouldnt be upset when skills are used that counter projectiles. There is no point in screaming nerf x or y when you could use other tools that counter those tools or are not subject to the same weakness as being projectile base.

Its the same when you are melee based and someone guns you down because they have mobility to out run you for at least 7 seconds or more making them for the most part perfectly safe. I cant say nerf blink and staff 2 because im playing a warrior.. with no ranged weapon it just makes no sense.

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Lily.1935"

> > A support necro would be fun but i really dont see how they could make it without also making it where people would just use the supportive tools with selfish intent leading to improper balance and other things being nerfed which then leaves them in a state in unviability. Curious if they would also have to break their own personal concept to make this work by giving the necro boons it could share etc. Scourge was already the offensive support so i dont think they need to do that same concept over again unless its literally reworking scourge.

> >

> > Imo Anet first needs to rework how support skills function globally so that people wont take them under the idea of selfish intent. (at least in pvp this is more of a

>

> Not actually always true. There could be a method where if they give boons they can only give boons but couldn't give themselves boons which would work. There was also the idea that the necromancer could sacrifice stacks of carapace for party support. There are plenty of options that they could take. I'd like it if it also promoted active play from the necromancer rather than the passive play that much of death seems to promote.

You have a point but generally maybe all support aspects need to be reworked with your concept in mind here it would help things alot and get people off of using support things for self-sustain which is not how they are exactly intended to be used.

> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > People were like "omg it's so bad there's no room to fit it on your bar."

> > > >

> > > > That's because a good portion of people don't think about anything that Metabattle/a streamer doesn't spoonfeed them.

> > > > It's definitely not a bad skill.

> > > >

> > > > > lol even with the longer cooldown the blind interval should by 3 seconds to account for the size of the ring and the projectile destruction.

> > > >

> > > > No. That just lets people walk into the field, tap you, then use a reveal skill. It takes all of the defensive aspect out of it and subjects it to anyone with a reveal on demand.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

>

> I say the same about CPC on necro. Perma poison, weakness, and projectile destruction for 8 seconds every 20 seconds while traited is NUTS.

>

> Also, the blind interval needs to be increased on Smokescreen. Black Powder is 2s interval but it has a much smaller radius and doesn't destroy projectiles. The current iteration let me basically facetank on point as anything that wasn't a melee-multi hit wouldn't be able to hit me. Interval should go up to 3s imo.

Are we going to talk about Creating Muddy Terrain on heal which applies slow and reducing the application intervals on that as well? Or is healing, immobilizing someone (sometimes from stealth) for free burst ok?

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> But you are talking about the Staff acro build that also had super evade uptime. It’s easy to see how that would be busted to add in any duration area blind.

>

> > How about this...if we are talking about making a bigger change.

>

> Smoke Screen:

> * Duration: 10

> * Cooldown: 40

> * Blind: 2 second intervals

> * Absorbs projectiles

> * Unblockable

>

> Longer cooldown but longer duration (more chance to use it to stack stealth) but longer blind interval (more subject to cleave than before).

>

> CD 40, 10 duration, 30 second downtime.

The blind interval is honestly way to long here every 2 seconds is enough for a thief to have all their hp erased at most a 1s interval if anything

Duration remains the same

Put the cd back to where they originally wanted to move it to which is 35s

Blind application every 1s

Absorbs projectiles

Unblockable.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

>

> god please no, play projectile heavy build and you will realise how miserable smoke field is to play against.

> 10s of kitten you to any proj is too much

But thats the risk you take when using a projectile heavy build i dont agree with the concept of nerfing 1 skill just because "my build is projectile heavy!" when you made the choice to do such a thing. This is bad balancing concept nerf x skill because my build gets shut down by that skill for a short time because i chose to be mostly projectile based. Thats like saying nerf long bow and secpter / staff based attacks because my build is melee only and i have no ranged attacks.

This whole argument is dumb

People need to remember that this skill is designed to reduce incoming damage potential and relieve pressure off a thief for a short time.

Yes even all your multi hits wont land which is ok thats the point of the skill

Yes it hard to fight while standing in it but thats the point of the skill why are you standing in it if you didnt have a plan to handle it?

There are so many skills in the game that will cover the entire aoe of the smoke field hit multiple times and will be promised hits if standing at its edge or even inside it

**Ele,** if weaver pulse your aoes and use sword fire 2 you are promised to get a few applications of burn in there remember you wont hit all of them the point of the skill is to reduce incoming damage potential its a defensive skill OR use tempest and just overload air at the rings edge pretty much still covers the entire thing.

**Necromancers,** use literally any aoe skill right on the edge of the ring. OR stand in the ring and press Core shroud 5 then 4, OR stand in the ring and press Reaper shroud 4, OR if scourge stand on the rings edge and use shade aoe, staff marks, etc.

**Rangers,** Stand outside the ring and use long bow 5 OR stand in the ring and use OH axe 5 (promise you they wont stay in the ring and the skill covers the whole thing) You do way more damage than you think and this skill hits so rapidly it practically counters the smoke ring.

**Warriors,** Use resistance or simply cleave through with greatsword attacks. or because you are durable wait it out you have that power.

**Revs,** Staff 5 thats about the best you can do unless condi then just start dumping aoes on the rings edge facing inside the ring.

**Guardians,** just drop symbols and swing (stand at rings edge for better results...) firebrands have no excuse their kits completely counter smoke ring in several ways. in both multi hit resistance categories not to mention you can pull them out of it.

**Thief,** ok yeah so outside of dagger storm you are kind screwd either go invis or just leave for 7 seconds lol stealth wars 2

**Mesmer,** have you tried pushing them with the GS other than that jus wait 7 seconds but thief is a hard counter to you anyways and you should consider that before hand that the matchup is not easy for you.

In a nut shell the skill has counter-play by design of it and everyone elses skills.

Stop trying to get it nerfed to the point its not useable just because you dont want to learn how to play around something.

This time its smokescreen next time it will be dagger storm or some insanity what ever you think makes you lose.

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.

> > > > > > Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

> > > >

> > > > The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

> > > >

> > > > With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

> > >

> >

> > It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

> >

> > Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have **just gained the option to merge**. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

> >

> > Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.

> > Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode **regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge** it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.

> > Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

> >

> > It's really so easy to understand.

> >

> > I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

>

> I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

Incorrect thats not a trade off thats just knowing how to play. Thats not the same thing and thats a super twisted perspective to take especially when trying to tell other professions they dont have a trade off.

Thats like saying its a trade off for reaper to have good damage without the increased life force decay and just know when to and not to shroud.

Thats like saying its a trade off for swipe to not have reduced ranged but still be unblockable and just know when to swipe and not to swipe.....

Thats like saying its a trade off spellbreaker to keep level 3 burst and jutst know when to Full counter and when not to full counter

That is not a trade off lol

You cant call out other professions for not having trade offs but then try to twist what a trade off is or should be for your main profession. Especially when other realistically do have them and the one you are defending did not.

**Knowing when and when not to press a button is not a trade off.**

A trade off is losing some thing for another thing even while that thing is not activated yet. The fact that you have access to it should come with a loss of something else.

Slotting reaper means you lose ranged abilities in shroud form even if you have not activated it and that it consumes more resources than the normal version once you do activate it. That is a trade off even if you have not activated shroud it yet because you cant go back to having life blast, doom, life transfer, etc while reaper is slotted. You are stuck with that choice you made before hand.

Even if we look deeper you losing your pet while fused is no different from reaper losing utility access while its in shroud which by all means is not considered a trade off because anet threw more ontop of it with the increased decay and removal of ranged abilities.

Spellbreakers are stuck with level 1 burst and zerkers are stuck with no burst until they can enter zerker mode These are trade offs from core warrior again its got absolutely nothing with knowing when to activate a skill or mode. That is not a trade off.

Im like legit shocked that you would even say that while you have been calling out these other professions that lacked trade offs when they obviously have them there are out right mechanical differences in some of the ones you called out in other post which makes trade off clear as day. Like seriously how do you sit here and say i know when to press a button and thats my trade off... WHAT? ???No other profession has that as a trade off because its not one.

You have clearly confused **knowing how to use a skill/tool/mechanic** with **Trading one benefit for another benefit.**

IF anything be happy they are still allowing f4 pet swap out of combat so at least there is some flexibility in moments where you are not fighting anyone which lets you adapt a tiny bit between combat situations.

They said that some cc skills might get reworked or have exceptions made for their damage but that the damage would still not be very high unless the cc factor is removed basically.

That said im not sure how good of a change that is going to be because reaper really needs that lockdown to hold people in place some times i was in favor for removing the damage and the damage modifier in exchange for increased stun duration and upping the target cap from 1 to 3 to make it in line with the other reaper skills as far as the number of targets that can be hit.

In pve even with that change in mind it would still do good damage but its generally not a part of reaper rotation atm unless your pve group has almost no or very low chill uptime. Removing the cc from it makes reaper a bit weaker as a break bar buster too (when not using golem) so i dont know really. ITs clear we cant have both so i guess there is a side that wants one over the other im personally for the increased stun duration if the target cap was increased if its still stuck to being 1 target though then im all for the damage coming back and the stun going away.

@"Axl.8924"

Reapers skills are plenty offensive also remember that rampage is an elite utility while reaper is just a profession mechanic. ITs suppose to be more in line with warrior burst skills which i would say it is more or less in its own way.

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > Can we talk about why Distortion does not lock skill bars though when all other invulnerability skills no longer allow the casters to use any skills and why this is the only oddball one.

> > > > >

> > > > > Already done, you are late to the party:

> > > > Can you point me to where one of the devs has addressed it?

> > > > I have not seen any confirmation that would imply its already done.

> > > >

> > >

> > > No sry i meant the discussion about it is already done. The discussion i copy pasted for you in the previous post. The change itself is not done. The discussion just makes clear why changing Distortion and even Obsidian with adding a skill lock out is not a good move and why it probably is not done to Distortion by Devs (maybe they just overlooked it, because looking at the whole trade off mess that make a lack of elite spec and class mechanics knowledge obvious, in particular in terms of Mesmers, means it might just be overlooked instead of not done for good reasons, who knows these days). Reading the discussion will help you to understand why asking for a skill lock out on Distortion makes even less sense than on Obsidian already and why the change to Obsidian should be canceled before patch release already.

> >

> > I see

> > It should be done for all invulns or none of them which if none of them then i would argue invulns need to be removed infavor for only being immune to one damage type or another and nothing more.

> >

> > There should not be a 100% invulnerable state a player can apply to themselves while being able to attack others in competitive modes even if its only for a few seconds, in this game a few seconds is enough to kill someone while that someone cannot interact with you in anyway which is just beyond broken especially if every profession does not have the same invuln type mechanics.

> >

> > I personally think you guys should not be comparing things like endure pain with things like renewed focus or obsidian flesh

> > Damage negation of a particular type and being completely invulnerable are not the same things by far as one has counter play and the other does not.

> >

> > **Flat out Invulnerability**

> > - Can you interact with the target while the buff is applied= No.....

> > - Can you be damaged by at least one damage type be it physical strikes or condition damage = No

> > - Can your boons be ripped or conditions applied = No

> > - Can you be CC'ed = No

> > - Can skills that normally cannot be evaded Effect you such as Spectral ring, Ring of Warding etc = No

> >

> > **Damage negation be it physical or conditional**

> > - Can you interact with the target while the buff is applied = Yes.... ok continue

> > - Can you be damaged by at least one damage type be it physical strikes or condition damage = Yes

> > - Can boons be ripped or conditions applied (even if they do no damage) = Yes

> > - Can they be CC'ed = Yes

> > - Can skills that normally cannot be evaded Effect you such as Spectral ring, Ring of Warding etc = Yes

> >

> > Just to be clear Signet of stone is not = to obsidian flesh

> > Endure pain is not = to Distortion

> > Even dagger storm is not = to obsidian flesh or distortion (as is not immune ward type spells / skills that require stability to pass through)

> >

> > Thats why my argument is that distortion even with the clone requirement should lock the skill bar.

> >

> > That said this is off topic about rev and i will stop talking about it now.

>

> It gets clear that you didn't read the stuff i copy pasted for you. No one compared Endure Pain with Obsidian during that. And also you would understand why you have to treat different invuln skill different (they are different because some have more and other rewarsds aside form the invuln than others) and why you have to treat different classes with different mechanic and different strengths different in what their skills are able to do and what not. On some classes a complete invuln while being able to attack is not per se and beyond broken but on other classes it would be. Some classes/builds are designed to have the ability of a short invuln while being able to use skills, for that they have insane weaknesses on other parts other classes have not. Lot of your arguments and assertions are already refuded by what is written in the copy paste. I don't feel like starting the same discussion that already is done from zero. Just read what i copy pasted for you after you asked for it before writing, so we don't have to restart from point zero because you just ignored/ didn't read what already was said.

The point is calling out other professions "defenses" how ever you want to title those tools by "exact name" or by a generic term like "Defenses" my point is that there should not be a form regardless of the class which makes one person unable to be interacted by any means while also allowing them to aggress someone at the same time. IF a buff or effect allows you to avoid interaction of any kind then you should not be able to interact with others during that time frame either.

Make this a global thing for consistency which is fair OR remove invulns altogether and make them only partial immunities like reducing incoming physical damage to 0 or conditional immunity getting one or the other but not both.

No matter how you try to word it im not for an effect that makes a player immune to any kind of interaction while allowing them to put out damage at the same time that needs to go for obvious balance reasons.

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > Can we talk about why Distortion does not lock skill bars though when all other invulnerability skills no longer allow the casters to use any skills and why this is the only oddball one.

> > >

> > > Already done, you are late to the party:

> > Can you point me to where one of the devs has addressed it?

> > I have not seen any confirmation that would imply its already done.

> >

>

> No sry i meant the discussion about it is already done. The discussion i copy pasted for you in the previous post. The change itself is not done. The discussion just makes clear why changing Distortion and even Obsidian with adding a skill lock out is not a good move and why it probably is not done to Distortion by Devs (maybe they just overlooked it, because looking at the whole trade off mess that make a lack of elite spec and class mechanics knowledge obvious, in particular in terms of Mesmers, means it might just be overlooked instead of not done for good reasons, who knows these days). Reading the discussion will help you to understand why asking for a skill lock out on Distortion makes even less sense than on Obsidian already and why the change to Obsidian should be canceled before patch release already.

I see

It should be done for all invulns or none of them which if none of them then i would argue invulns need to be removed infavor for only being immune to one damage type or another and nothing more.

There should not be a 100% invulnerable state a player can apply to themselves while being able to attack others in competitive modes even if its only for a few seconds, in this game a few seconds is enough to kill someone while that someone cannot interact with you in anyway which is just beyond broken especially if every profession does not have the same invuln type mechanics.

I personally think you guys should not be comparing things like endure pain with things like renewed focus or obsidian flesh

Damage negation of a particular type and being completely invulnerable are not the same things by far as one has counter play and the other does not.

**Flat out Invulnerability**

- Can you interact with the target while the buff is applied= No.....

- Can you be damaged by at least one damage type be it physical strikes or condition damage = No

- Can your boons be ripped or conditions applied = No

- Can you be CC'ed = No

- Can skills that normally cannot be evaded Effect you such as Spectral ring, Ring of Warding etc = No

**Damage negation be it physical or conditional**

- Can you interact with the target while the buff is applied = Yes.... ok continue

- Can you be damaged by at least one damage type be it physical strikes or condition damage = Yes

- Can boons be ripped or conditions applied (even if they do no damage) = Yes

- Can they be CC'ed = Yes

- Can skills that normally cannot be evaded Effect you such as Spectral ring, Ring of Warding etc = Yes

Just to be clear Signet of stone is not = to obsidian flesh

Endure pain is not = to Distortion

Even dagger storm is not = to obsidian flesh or distortion (as is not immune ward type spells / skills that require stability to pass through)

Thats why my argument is that distortion even with the clone requirement should lock the skill bar.

That said this is off topic about rev and i will stop talking about it now.

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Can we talk about why Distortion does not lock skill bars though when all other invulnerability skills no longer allow the casters to use any skills and why this is the only oddball one.

>

> Already done, you are late to the party:

Can you point me to where one of the devs has addressed it?

I have not seen any confirmation that would imply its already done.

The trade off is that none of those skills give you energy back and unique buff like the core skill does lmao people just dont see value in the core skill because people are boosted on the busted herald build.

Dot not assume there is no trade off when in reality there is one you just dont see it because people dont play core much.

Considering where this patch is going extra energy restoration is going to more valuable than it is now so i would say the trade off is in line.

Can we talk about why Distortion does not lock skill bars though when all other invulnerability skills no longer allow the casters to use any skills and why this is the only oddball one.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > It's much less of an issue because death magic generally isn't run unless it's openworld.

>

> Well it's used a bit more in sPvP/WvW nowadays. I do hope thought that they will do "more" to DM's issue than just modifying the _Death Carapace_'s toughness by vitality. Personally, I'd be glad if they kept the toughness on _death carapace_ but made use of the major at the master level to modify (or not) the stat bonus from _death carapace_. (For example: _Deadly strength_ could be a trait that replace toughness by power instead of slapping power on top of the toughness.)

This is actually a good idea i would love to be able to modify the entire bonus of Carapace instead of just adding ontop of it :+1:

@"Lily.1935"

A support necro would be fun but i really dont see how they could make it without also making it where people would just use the supportive tools with selfish intent leading to improper balance and other things being nerfed which then leaves them in a state in unviability. Curious if they would also have to break their own personal concept to make this work by giving the necro boons it could share etc. Scourge was already the offensive support so i dont think they need to do that same concept over again unless its literally reworking scourge.

Imo Anet first needs to rework how support skills function globally so that people wont take them under the idea of selfish intent. (at least in pvp this is more of a noticeable problem.)

That said you know me im not for losing core shroud but i mean if they want to rework scourge into this i would be down for it. OR if it came as a new elite it would not bother me as an option to play every now and again.

I still wish scourge shade was more like the Warlock's Thrall in Blade & Soul. You just get one big strong minion that does things from zone control to buffing allies in the area or inflicting cc etc. IT does not move but can be commanded to jump to a target or back to your position i think it even had a stun break that let you swap positions with it. Something like that I would love to see. Shades as anet made them are just too underwhelming for me personally though xD

> @"Lily.1935" said:

> Perhaps this is asking a bit much right now. And I'll accept that. However these traits have been grinding at me for some time now.... Also please fix the necromancer female's auto axe animation on Sylvari, norn and human...

ALL THE OLD AUTO AXE ANIMATIONS WHERE BETTER! FACTS! :astonished:

Too bad there was an exploit that turned axe 1 into a machine gun that made it hit like an unlimited axe 2 cast. Which is why I'm almost 100% sure the reason they changed it.

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > >

> > > we don't like that a minor trait gives you toughness and can make you a target in some of our content when that's not the goal of your build.

> > >

> > > Other traits with this behavior that we'll be looking at along these lines are:

> > > * Armored Shroud

> >

> > Its going to be very interesting to see how you solve this one considering the fact that changing that trait changes how the entire line works now that carapace was forced into it rather than just making something flat that works all the time like the other lines on other professions have.

> >

> > I doubt it will be as easy as just swapping it to vitality allowing scaling vitality in combat which seems like a massive balance issue considering how many traits and things vitality is tied to with the necromancer not to mention it already has a vitality trait in another line. I mean the idea of slapping some one with a curse and in theory leeching some vitality off them (without reducing theirs) is pretty cool and all but boy does that seem like balance nightmare.

> >

> >

> >

> It's much less of an issue because death magic generally isn't run unless it's openworld.

>

It could be for some bosses actually even more so as a core tank possibly the issue though is that unlike other professions anet refuses to give necromancer blocks or evades necro does not even have access to the one boon that blocks attacks so that makes it hard to fit into the tank role where some attacks need to be blocked or evaded without moving to keep things easy for the rest of the group. I think there is actually a decent condi reaper build that can also use death magic for the boosted poison damage and it can reach numbers over 25k dps for a damage role (takes much more effort than a power build though) which is not super good but not bad either. The problem is though the stacking toughness which you cannot turn off should your tank be running a lower toughness value this trait could play with that. Death magic has potential its just so situational that most people dont bother to use it. Regardless if its pve or pvp. In pvp death magic has started to see a tiny bit more use and probably will see alot of use going into the new patch where people think necro will be one of the most resilient tanks along side weavers still.

In pvp though stacking vitality options while in combat might be problematic which is why i called it out so they just dont do a default swap without considering how much stuff that messes with.

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > So in a nutshell these changes mean nothing and thief will still hardcore punish mesmer so it still needs more reductions until it cant do that anymore then its fine???

> > Thats honestly all im getting at this point.

>

> Frankly the the changes I've suggested will even out Mesmer vs Thief but it will still be very stacked in thief's favor.

>

> >

> > Thief is getting to the point where its going to be borderline how necro was for a massive portion of the games existence 'not effective' at the mechanics it has to work with that it should be effective with because people or a certain amount of people who play a certain profession that it just so happens to stomp demand nerfs in the wrong ways.

>

> Fair enough. To be honest I dunno what you're talking about as necro was top tier both with Condi reaper in HoT and scourge>Core Reaper in PoF.

There has been a lot of time between the HoT bunker fix and PoF and between PoF up till the most recent balance which saw core become relevant after and only after scourge got clunky due to wvw balance. Between Even now reaper is not exactly good at what it was initially designed to do at a base level in terms of doing bigger damage if it can catch its foes. Plenty of other professions deal equally as much if not more damage (some times in a quicker time fame) which pretty much makes the point of it being slow redundant. There is a reason necromancers depend heavily on things like speed runes and even more so on boon corrupts than ever before. Shroud also currently fails to soak damage in line with damage avoidance due to the power creep as it was designed. The gap between soaking and just avoiding damage is just too massive at the moment.

The sustain + damage that other professions have while keeping their hard defenses does not measure up to the passive soak necro was designed to play around when built using an equally glassy ammy or setup.

Basically what im saying is if this keeps up we will end up with a thief that cant fight people out of stealth because players demanded all its non stealth tools be over nerfed and stealth that is not useful in combat situations due to a high demand of nerfs in the wrong direction.

> >

> > Yes please do something about one shots (from any profession from stealth) but dont go trying to kill stealth then when someone finds a build that can work that does not depend on stealth demand for that to be erased too and say "well you have stealth!" Then when people go back to stealth call for more stealth nerfs im not even a thief main and im starting to see the pattern of this trend recently and honest it does not look good for thief as a whole in the long run.

>

> Genuinely the only change I think should happen to the baseline stealth mechanic is that when you dodge an attack from a stealthed attacker it reveals the attacker. There have been literally hundreds of times this season where I've had to deal with some sort of stealthed target aggressing me, and I've accurately predicted when they are about to strike and full on dodge rolled it, but they're still stealthed for 4+seconds so they can just try it again.

I mean i guess but then people would just go to perma evade style builds because that would be more reliable than getting auto revealed and then you would say those tools need to be nerfed too. Hints the complaints about things like smoke screen which actually allows a thief to fight for a short period without losing all their hp to chip damage or one or two attacks. Smokescreen was good at the 25 to 35s mark now its at 45 which is way over kill due to mass complaints based on how the skill is now in the live build. Infact most other professions actually dont have an issue with smokescreen because there are ways of dealing with a thief that wants to sit in it.

While we are letting elephants out of the room on making things equal though when are they going to lock the skill bars while a mesmer is under distortion? Every single other invuln now does this i dont see why 1 profession should be allowed to be an outlier. :astonished:

The issue is that they gave too much to start with without thinking and thats what broke the game let them take some of it back.

AFter the mess that was HoT they tried so hard to recover by upping kill potential on everyone thats when it all started. There were several patches of buffs between that and PoF and PoF only made things considerably worse.

In a nutshell

If you were a mellow/general pvp player before now and didnt potato hop to the new band wagon every few months cause "META / WINNING" you dont have issues with the majority of the notes outside of a few questionable choices on the devs part.

If you just play something you know is bluntly broken and did jump ship every patch even if you would never admit it then you probably take issue with the notes. If you use something thats super safe and does not require you to think about how you play you probably take issue with the notes. Especially considering there is not a wide choice of selections that you can say will be the top dog this time around. Unlike pass attempts to balance the game there is no profession that didnt get something critical taken away or reduced in some aspect or another so there is no "ez re roll" to x profession to be seen just yet.

Gw2 was the fastest pace game i played when it first came out compared to a lot of other games and it only got faster from the core game. Even now in 2020 not too many mmos i would consider playing / still do play would i say have anywhere near the speed of gw2's combat. They could stand to slow it down by a large margin and it would still by all means be one of the fastest combat you can find in most mmo games to date.

So in a nutshell these changes mean nothing and thief will still hardcore punish mesmer so it still needs more reductions until it cant do that anymore then its fine???

Thats honestly all im getting at this point.

Thief is getting to the point where its going to be borderline how necro was for a massive portion of the games existence 'not effective' at the mechanics it has to work with that it should be effective with because people or a certain amount of people who play a certain profession that it just so happens to stomp demand nerfs in the wrong ways.

Yes please do something about one shots (from any profession from stealth) but dont go trying to kill stealth then when someone finds a build that can work that does not depend on stealth demand for that to be erased too and say "well you have stealth!" Then when people go back to stealth call for more stealth nerfs im not even a thief main and im starting to see the pattern of this trend recently and honest it does not look good for thief as a whole in the long run.

> @"Moira Shalaar.5620" said:

> > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> > * Weaver's Elemental Polyphany will grant vitality instead of toughness while attuned to earth.

> > * Firebrand's Imbued Haste will grant vitality instead of toughness while you have quickness.

> >

> > As a sidenote to this specific type of change: This is NOT something that we're changing if it is a major trait choice for this reason alone. If there are other reasons for changing traits, we'll look at this independently.

> >

> > Other traits with this behavior that we'll be looking at along these lines are:

> > * Spiked Armor

> > * Thick Skin

> > * Pack Alpha (with SB)

> > * Armored Shroud

> >

>

> With Armored Shroud, if you change toughness to vitality, that is going to impact shroud duration, or are you considering simple damage reduction instead of toughness?

>

It wont impact shroud duration in terms of natural decay. No matter how many points are in the bar decay is a percentage based drain. The only thing it will change how ever is how much damage one can take when hit. I also think simple damage reduction might be the better way to go but generally changing that trait is gonna change how people look at the whole line i suppose they could do percent reductions based on count thresholds

x % above 5

x % above 15

x % above 25

etc

But % reduction is almost always better than flat stats like toughness so how much reduction is too much before it gets out of hand even more so in the pvp side.

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

>

> we don't like that a minor trait gives you toughness and can make you a target in some of our content when that's not the goal of your build.

>

> Other traits with this behavior that we'll be looking at along these lines are:

> * Armored Shroud

Its going to be very interesting to see how you solve this one considering the fact that changing that trait changes how the entire line works now that carapace was forced into it rather than just making something flat that works all the time like the other lines on other professions have.

I doubt it will be as easy as just swapping it to vitality allowing scaling vitality in combat which seems like a massive balance issue considering how many traits and things vitality is tied to with the necromancer not to mention it already has a vitality trait in another line. I mean the idea of slapping some one with a curse and in theory leeching some vitality off them (without reducing theirs) is pretty cool and all but boy does that seem like balance nightmare.

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046"

> > Have you know I'm the only core revenant around next to @"Master Ketsu.4569" in the high placements although he's more often Power compared me which I am Condition as Loona for Core/Équivoque for Herald. We had a few fun clashes but there's a bunch of things we disagree on here and there, of course. He's not really into the favor of Empty Vessel removal, I am however. I do think Riposting Shadows is in the right place now and that Stability on stunbreak is long due, with Annulments removal it's nearly impossible to CC someone with Stability, breaking a Revenant flow in anyway will be rather difficult but still rewarding to CC one because Energy has more value now.

> >

> > Rare are the times I am CC to the point where I can't do anything currently as Core, so is any Revenants because of Empty Vessel and that's why it's a good decision. Like it's came down to the point where people can offensively use Gaze of Darkness with ease and back away with Swap and Shiro, these are the offending combo's that brings most of Herald a lil notch about Core, Might not so much.

> >

> > Core is indeed tankier than Herald as well for any objective because of all the Synergy with Weakness and Utility, however Herald has Infuse Light which tips the importance of Tanking mostly upside down since you can get away with it, but obviously not contest in the end.

> >

> > The way people play Herald/Shiro is the least Revenant way there is to play the game if you ask me. Little has it to do with energy right now since you always have something to use unless someone is good enough to stop it short. It's a real shame that even out of all those fights, I have rarely if at all seen a Revenant pop Infuse Light into Impossible Odds as well, that's like the most satisfying to do while the skill always gets used like an i-frame that you can't do anything.

>

> Actually, I am in favor of empty vessel being removed. It's current state carries a lot of bad Revenants out of situations they shouldn't get out of, not so much on any core build that uses Jalis ( Because you know, stab road lol ) but it's more of a problem on Meta Rev being able to just instantly break stun gain Quickness and burst people with S4. CCs should be felt and these low CD stunbreaks currently in the game are making it so too many builds can just flat out ignore them.

Interesting

> My only two problems with the Revenant changes are:

>

> Riposting Shadow could use a nerf, but 40 energy is the **wrong** nerf. All it really does is remove the skill from play most of the time. A better change would be to leave it at 30 energy but then tone it down slightly more. My own suggestion was to remove the fury and remove the instant endurance gain entirely, replacing it with Vigor. This would make RS less of a "Dodge RS Dodge RS" and more of a skill where you have to consider managing endurance in the future. It also removes the problem of a defensive skill granting an offensive buff for seemingly no reason.

You are not the first person to say this and i would totally agree on this to be honest drop the energy cost back down replace endurance gain with minor vigor boon. just make sure its not enough vigor to end up with insane uptimes like it should not last long enough for you to legend swap then have swapped back and Vigor from 2 swaps ago still be applied we need less perma boon things but make it last long enough to cover what would be the gain of 15-20 endurance which is only a few seconds.

> Staff 5 getting a windup time. What this does is make the skill mostly useful as a defensive move, but removes its viability as an interrupt. This is bad for the class as it will make Rev the only class in the game without a quick disruption skill on their weapon slots, which is a much bigger blow to the class than I think anyone has yet to realize.

I think depending on how slow the start up is on the staff rework off hand axe 5 might be a faster interrupt now but even that one is pretty slow but at the same time its go a odd hit box some times its super wide some times its like "HOW DID THAT NOT HIT YOU?"

That said the skill did need a tell and i think that was the most important thing about it as it is right now you just have to guess pretty much on a raw feeling when the rev will use it based on their movements and skill rotation and some times its just not possible to correctly do that. With it hitting multiple times so fast very few professions have enough stability to tank it or use stability as a counter to it too so its one of the skills that you have to dodge or its just gonna push. But i can see where you are coming from. I think if its not any longer than other cc tells like point blank shot, the new doom (which is gonna be about a half second) etc then it might be fine.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> @"ZDragon.3046"

> Like I said, there is bound to be people with very different opinions.

> However, design wise, I don't think having your peak of damage at the same time that your are at the peak of your damage mitigation is healthy.

> I would be totally for reaper shroud to be the bread and butter of it's damage kit if, and only if, the reaper's health pool wasn't under the cover of life force.

Once again if this was a thing it would need a ground up rework of base utility tools more fitting to evade damage because as it stands right now base tools are not good enough to support that idea. Other professions have just as much bread and butter damage in melee range in some cases even at a distance while having the tools needed to avoid / block damage. OR they would need to up the damage so much due to the risk that no one would consider it fair when it hits them and demand it be nerfed back down. If you ask me without doing a ground work up leaving it like it is now is the best way it can be especially its given an obvious weakness like cc which might not prevent the damage mitigation but certainly prevents the out going damage.

Best case situation is something similar to holo which even in its kit has a bubble that massively reduces damage and a block that allows them to attack while blocking and much lower cooldowns that what reaper has. I would assume reaper would at the bare minimum need similar tools which below as you said we know anet is not going to provide.

> > anet as far as we can see is 100% against doing that for necro

>

> I'd even say that they 10000000% against it. They even got to the length of reducing the necromancer's stability even further to be sure that the necromancer is true living sand bag.

>

> There is a lot of nonsense in the amount of restrictions put on the necromancer and even the tools ANet give it. There is way to many things that defy logic:

> - The necromancer being weak to CC defy logic, there is litteraly no thematical reasons for that.

> - The necromancer having almost no access to passive tools of retaliation (retal/aura) when it use it's health point as it's main defensive mean make no sense.

> - The necromancer being a poor support make no sense either since in GW1 it was one of it's main expertise.

> - The necromancer having a large health pool while in GW1 it was the profession that tried the hardest to have the lowest health pool possible.

> - The necromancer having low mobility isn't logic either, in GW1 he didn't have low mobility and thematically nothing force a necromancer to have low mobility.

> - ... etc.

Basically all of this is facts but at the same time i do understand that this game is not gw1 and that their choices did not have to be in direct responce of what gw1 was or left off. So im not opposed to changing things from one game to another in terms of things like going from wanting low hp to giving high hp etc things like that.

Again i am personally fine with the removal/reduction of stability as i am use to playing with considerably less of it than every other profession as it is and i personally feel spoiled when playing other professions that have the options that necro does not. I am sad to see the break stun function on foot in the grave go but still fine with it so long as the method in which necro is currently designed is allowed to be viable or at least some what on part with damage evasion without only depending on boon corruption. The moment the community says "anet its not fair but ignore our ability to avoid damage" and anet says "ok" and reduces it to a point its not viable then i have an issue because there are no other options due to how its designed.

> I can see what ANet want the necromancer to do "defensively", they want the necromancer to receive the hits, to focus on passive mitigation and sustain instead of active mitigation. But it doesn't make sense, be it thematically or "historically" to have the necromancer restricted to this mode of defense. It doesn't make sense either to have the necromancer weak to CC, just like it doesn't make sense for the necromancer to not take advantage of it's way to defend himself with it's health point and use passive retalition tools.

I mean we can assume that skills and practices "lore wise" have changed over time from gw1 into gw2 so i can see that there might be reason to not exactly follow in gw1's footsteps and if you ask some people today there would certainly be many who didnt want to go back to that vs whats optional on the table now.

Defending by soaking damage is fine if its allowed to be effective. Its only when you make that method ineffective due to community request or passive creep over time and also do not give them tools on par to what other would use is when you really start to reach the point of bad design. I consider something like necro's design to be different and unique which actually makes it good design so long as it works when played correctly.

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> @"ZDragon.3046"

> Have you know I'm the only core revenant around next to @"Master Ketsu.4569" in the high placements although he's more often Power compared me which I am Condition as Loona for Core/Équivoque for Herald. We had a few fun clashes but there's a bunch of things we disagree on here and there, of course. He's not really into the favor of Empty Vessel removal, I am however. I do think Riposting Shadows is in the right place now and that Stability on stunbreak is long due, with Annulments removal it's nearly impossible to CC someone with Stability, breaking a Revenant flow in anyway will be rather difficult but still rewarding to CC one because Energy has more value now.

>

> Rare are the times I am CC to the point where I can't do anything currently as Core, so is any Revenants because of Empty Vessel and that's why it's a good decision. Like it's came down to the point where people can offensively use Gaze of Darkness with ease and back away with Swap and Shiro, these are the offending combo's that brings most of Herald a lil notch about Core, Might not so much.

>

> Core is indeed tankier than Herald as well for any objective because of all the Synergy with Weakness and Utility, however Herald has Infuse Light which tips the importance of Tanking mostly upside down since you can get away with it, but obviously not contest in the end.

>

> The way people play Herald/Shiro is the least Revenant way there is to play the game if you ask me. Little has it to do with energy right now since you always have something to use unless someone is good enough to stop it short. It's a real shame that even out of all those fights, I have rarely if at all seen a Revenant pop Infuse Light into Impossible Odds as well, that's like the most satisfying to do while the skill always gets used like an i-frame that you can't do anything.

lol.... Infuse light has been renamed to [infuse i-Frames]

Overall i think if everyone else is toned down by the right amounts rev will be fine although im looking at the mayllx rework with a questionable eye. Not too sure about that one.

Also i 100% agree with that Gaze of darkness comment also questioning why it has the old Holo hammer smash range???? standing super far away from the rev and still get blinded while im not even the intended target "NANI!" But thats another topic and one of my lesser concerns the point is you are right people are at the point where they dont bother to save it defensively and almost always use it offensively because they can get away with it there is never a reason to consider why you shouldn't save it for a sticky situation.

Its always something aint it....

At this point just make everyone enter pvp with only traits and weapon skills using base stats.

The only bonuses you can get are from your own traits and utility skills

no runes

no sigils

no amulets

Want more power better look at your traits

Want more boons better look at your traits

Want healing power better look at your traits

Also looking back at some of the recent post i dont think the shroud fuctions should be something where you enter them for less dps that realsticly makes no sense especially if the skills in the shroud kit are designed to be offensive skills.

no other profession works this way regardless of the shroud bar covering hp or not.

Infact that was one of the main issues people took with reaper early on. The fact that going into shroud was actually a dps loss despite the fact that it was suppose to be this scary super powerful form. Thats the whole reason i ever even got drawn into the necormancer profession years ago back in the core game was because i saw some one use death shroud for and had no idea it was a different fourm that the class could have regular access to.

Despite its low damage at the time (people dont care to much about dps back then there were no dps meters etc) just the idea of having this new form that no other profession had was so unique and felt powerful enough from my perspective that it was something i wanted to regularlly use.

Even now i still expect shroud skills to be stronger than base skills just like you would expect holo skills to be stronger than base weapon skills.

If they wanted to something like holo on necro they would have to rework utilities and traits from the ground up to give necro at a core level the same tools the other professions have (not just barrier thats not good enough) they would literally need evades, blocks, reflects, instant blinks etc) and anet as far as we can see is 100% against doing that for necro which is not so much a bad thing so long as they let what necro is good at be effective the moment they cull its unique effectiveness without giving the other tools the other light armors do have then its a problem.

As far as shroud camping goes.

Shroud usage is a part of the profession and any raider knows that shroud only improves dps up to a certain point at which if you continue to camp your dps actually starts to drop back down. Optimal players dont camp but cycle back and forth between shroud in burst the only time i realistically camp shroud is in a tight situation say its a fractal and my hp is low and my healer is currently not near me or busy rezing someone else. OR perhaps im trying to res someone who is downed but dont have the hp to soak the damage so ill use my shroud to do it instead. In terms of pvp shroud camping is more noticable but because there are not other options other than just letting someone erase your hp. Generally speaking though shroud flashing is not acceptable either which is what most people who hate this "shroud camping" ideally want for pvp purposes and thats likely never going to come back either.

They think that some how if they can get anet to nerf shroud up time that they will be compensated by being given their 7s shroud cooldown back which is very unlikely to happen. Instead they will not only get shroud uptime cut back they will also end up still stuck with a 10s cd on entry. Be very careful what you ask for in 2020. Its rare you can ask for a mechanical change in a game you like these days and get it the way you want it 99% of the time you get nothing of what you asked for and end up wishing you had what you lost.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > I'm apprehensive about the chances i do suspect that necromancers are going to get sustain nerfs and be underpowered. I do think what some have said that thief player who commented in PVP zdragon and such pointing out why necros are not overpowered and why the class didn't get equal changes to others due to other classes over performing in comparison. The fact so many are already complaining necro didn't get equal nerfs leaves me not wanting to come back and play this game, because i have low hope and pessimistic about it.

> >

> > I was happy they nerfed every class dps hugely and i wasn't even worried about the nerfs necro took because i was like yeah makes sense necros would take some nerfs. Power creep was massive across the game in damage, but i am worried if they nerf the regen and other stuff for necro, it would end up exactly where it was before ez free kill punching bag.

>

> Well, I believe that ANet will need to touch the sustain of the necromancer after the patch, so...

>

> Like I said a lot of time in the sPvP sub section, the thing is that the necromancer's defense based on health/LF sustain benefit the most from a "low" damage environment. The level of damage that can be expected after the patch is basically the level of damage that you'd have currently if there were no boons. And the necromancer will be extremly resilient in this kind of environment. It's sustain not being nerfed will probably make him overperforming in survivability even if he build offensively.

>

> The necromancer's area of expertise is in dealing against a lot of small hits, while it's defensive system have a hard time dealing against high damage hits.

>

> I have no reason to think that ANet's devs will somehow change their patern for balancing. The necromancer's sustain is bound to be over the top in the next patch as it is presented and ANet will expectedly do what they do when it's the case: nerf numbers. You're right to think that the necro will most likely slowly go back to it's weak state and I even expect ANet to end up bringing it to an even lower state because the fights will last longer and the necromancer will feel resilient to other even if he can't do anything. ANet's devs are bound to try to bring him to a state where the necromancer can be killed in the same average time other professions will be killed and this most likely mean nerf to _spectral armor_ duration for example (it would be awfull but still I'd understand why they do it since in conjunction with shroud it can effectively work as a pseudo invuln skill in low damage environment and 8 seconds of pseudo invuln that do not prevent you from dealing damage might feel infuriating to other professions).

Lets hope they dont do this because this just means that if enough time passes the game will end up the same way it is now. once necro is down people move to the next thing till we only have afew over-performing (usually the same ones, ranger, guardian, warrior, herald etc over performing while everyone else sits in the middle or lower.

For once anet needs to get the game to a point let each profession be good at their own thing within reason and not fall into the same pit we are in now. So necros dont die the moment someone looks at them anymore and it takes more hits than everyone else cause everyone else has options for avoiding or negating a portion of hits.

There is literally no point in making one class be purposely held back in boons, mobility, attack speed, hard defenses (evades / blocks) etc and also make them die in the same number of hits everyone else who has those other things in their kits If they do nerf necro to the stage you predict here then the whole game will be jacked within a years time right back to the same state it is now.

Im personally hoping this is the tipping point where people actually just need to start learning not just against necro but against other professions to so we dont end up right back in the same boat after a few patches and complaints.

Im ok with accepting nerfs to an extent for balancing purposes im not ok with hard balancing one class for thematic consistency based on the past years (which has never been an ideal balanced state) while letting the majority of everyone else get away willy nilly over a period of time.

Thats the whole reason why many people consider many forms of necro to be underperforming now because its always hard balanced to some extent with what it can and cannot have while others get to run wild with explosive ideas. via boons new mechanics etc.

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > It seems like too much but in the end, it's also just as easy to counter if you see it coming or calculate chains of stuns on Riposting Shadows.

> > >

> > > The moment Rev ports, it's vulnerable to CC. If that was a fresh swap port, that's a dead Rev.

> > Fair points as far as porting in... but when porting out....

> > I do not agree that its easy to chain stun reposting simply because it moves the character decently far and can be used back to back if energy allows. There are not many stuns that can follow up a Riposting shadows cast simply because of the range and nothing to stop them from simply legend swapping or using the skill again which in that case you most certainly cant follow it up with another cc from that a range.

> >

> > My issue was never with the ports moving the character its with effects that come with them specifically reposting shadows. 25 endurance gain!

> > Dodging out to gain more dodge energy was just insane and 25 points at that.

> > They are already nerfing the endurance gain on RS though which i think is fair in the very least. The rest is more debatable like every other profession there are things in revs notes that are like "why?"

>

> As much as I hate Riposting Shadows myself, that skill is on part with Warrior/Spellbreaker Endurance regeneration from Might Makes Right. I'm glad they nerfed both in that regard. Even for the 40 Energy, Riposting Shadows was too easily spammed to great success.

>

> Honestly if it's too much, they can make it 30 again but with that Stability on stunbreak invocation is gonna get, it's debatable whether 40 is too much or just right.

>

> Hell if I can make RotGD work right now in the current state of the game, there's no way RS won't be playable. Revenants can also benefits from Sigils that have 9 seconds cooldown better than most classes out there too so with Annulment being out of the game, it's likely going to be replaced with Energy.

Well we also must consider that while it is 40 energy it still also has no cooldown and is only limited by energy restoration. Worst case situation someone legend swaps after using it they only need to wait roughly 10 seconds before they can legend swap again before its realistically back up where as other professions with similar stunbreaks that roll them out of a situation have a 35-40 second gap between the time they can use it again. I would say 40 energy is the better deal in terms of accessibility and flexibility. That said rev does not have other utility options so thats probably why its built this way to start with.

> The removal of Empty Vessel is EXTREMELY relative to the entire class also, it takes away a big chunk of energy for the escape potential, with Shiro especially because they will require a stunbreak that cost 40 in the first place, they won't be doing Phase Traversal anytime soon after, at least with Herald. Core Revenant with F2 has more potential to it.

This does not seem like a bad thing if this change kind of adds more value to core rev (which almost no people play) im not going to consider it a bad thing. Ive already seen afew condi revs popping up recently with some creative builds that are not the standard herald port in do massive damage meta setups and they are having decent success with them.

>

> Charged Mists is also something way more fun to use now considering it's not longer a wasted stunbreak to swap legends.

To be honest i personally preferred core rev to herald but thats just me personally when i played rev i just dont like how anet changed herald so much and ive never been all that good with its heal so i prefer something more stable like jails or even mallyx lol