ZDragon.3046

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > snips

>

> we're not talking about what some players like. we're talking about the current op core build. stay on topic. same goes for sig of undeath. what is so hard to understand? jesus. the current op core necro build is ridiculous and should be nerfed, whatever anet does I hope they shave things instead of killing traits. you keep talking like what I suggested I think should all go thru all at once. maybe the dev team doesn't do that and only chooses to adjust little by little? calm down. anyway if you want to continue to have a convo try to be objective and coherent. yes, there are some broken things on core necro. yes, they should be nerfed. your previous suggestions don't nearly begin to address any problems. its clear you want core necro to remain broken.

Tbh i have not run across a core necro i couldnt kill yet so maybe its just me.

I use reaper btw i play core every once in a while. Ive played it twice i think with a bunker setup since the patch dropped but the rest of my time has been on reaper. without death magic.

What should be clear is that it bothers me to see suggestions like the removal of entire skills and build options which does not need to happen.

As i said im ok with shaving things down to reasonable levels but not culling. Read and understand this.

You want to turn a signet from a life force building option which can see use across several builds into a AI buffing perk and some how you think this is an ok suggestion for pvp purposes??? I dont know what game you have been playing for the past 7 years but minions have not been relevant in pvp since year 1 or 2 for good reason. Even if your suggestion was taken and minions became viable then you would be ultra tilted about being killed by so many necros using AI pets. Because people hate getting killed by AI its litterally worse than broken mechanics if its viable. You will see it as ultra cheesy and i certainly dont want the meta shifting to that.

To be clear undeath again is not the issue it never was and reverting it would address its potency.

The issue is that anet cut overall dps back a bit too much allowing bunker builds to thrive harder than they should be not just on necro but also on several other professions. You also have to consider that necromancer is not like any other profession in the entire game its is the only damage soaker in the game by nature where as all other professions are more based on avoiding or blocking damage.

There is a very very careful balance you have to consider when changing the resources that control how much damage it can take when it has no stability, blocks, evades, stealth, etc.

Again im ok with nerfing things that need it but dont remove them entirely from the game with ideas like changing something into a minion buffer thats just being silly.

We should also wait to see how much dps they are going to add back to the game which could make a big difference.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > snips

>

> I have no idea what you're trying to say. metabattle build doesn't use death magic or signet of undeath, both of which are major culprits of the now op post patch build. its important to note that my suggestions are exactly that, suggestions. they're not set in stone. the overall message of my suggested nerfs is that they shave traits instead of removing them, or worse, messing with core class mechanics.

To be clear you asked if it depended on life force generation and i pointed out exactly that it does. The only thing that meta battle build does is shift the way in which you gain life force some players believe it or not dont like to use staff or even blood magic which would void out the biggest life force generators in that build trait wise.

So now you are clear cut calling undeath by itself broken life force gain because that linked build uses every other source except that one. ok.... well

Your first post also referenced "broken life force gain" as a general thing you didnt call out specific skills. So which is it?

IS undeath broken or is life force gain in general broken?

Keep in mind undeath was fine before the patch..... So was death magic when people again didnt complain because their dps blew it away in 3s flat. A necro could invest in these things and still be melted quite easily by several other professions in the game. So it was "in an ok spot"

So which is it life force gain in general or is it just undeath and death magic?

Should death magic not be a proper defense line because we have gone 6 of the 7 years of gw2 without one due to how laughably bad it was up to the rework? (to which some people still consider it bad for general use except with core btw)

Suddenly after a game wide nerf death magic is too op and broken? IF necro had gotten buffed i could understand but thats not what happened here everyone was nerfed at the same time and it took that for people to call something that was borderline irrelevant broken and so it needs more nerfing?

The overall message of your suggestion was reworking something that at most just needs to be reverted to its old version into something useless that cant be used in pvp to any serious degree. Making the signet GM trait thats not been used much by the majority of players up till recently irrelevant with immediate shaving which is honestly uncalled for. I like having 2 pvp options between that and spiteful spirit rather than just being pushed into spiteful because lets be real no one is gonna bother using close to death.

At the same time you also wanted to suggest shaving almost all other sources more or less for life force generation all at the same time.

So yes this is how you kill a core class. By limiting build paths and cutting everything at once rather than a few things here and there. I can agree to shaving but not culling.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > doing all of these changes at once would distory a core class with low base damage, slow condi ramp, no mobility, no extra evades, and no blocks if you didnt know.

>

> no it wouldn't, it would fix whats broke. look at meta battle, does [this build](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Necromancer_-_Vanilla_Condi_Necro) rely on broken life force gain? core necro will be fine. if you want to be taken seriously don't defend broken mechanics.

**Fear of death

Eternal Life

Soul marks

Unholy Martyr

Spectral walk**

Does this build depend on **life force gain.**

**Yes it does!** are you being serious?

Im personally not an avid blood magic user and dont use Unholy Martyr in my builds so i need other sources to gain my lf. I also dont use eternal life as i dont think at the moment is worth using in my more offensive builds.

All necro builds depend on life force gain your builds do not work without it because its part of the profession mechanic. IF you take a build extremely starved for life force you will not survive against anything long enough to do your damage.

The only thing that changes is how you go about getting life force which should have multiple options to prevent people from being locked into the same traits/utilities for every build.

Why do you think everyone should be pigion toed into that setup?

Does this generate enough life force for reaper which consumes more life force and will be prone to taking more damage in melee range?

So in the long run yes doing all of what you said would ruin the core profession which in turn ruins the elites that stack ontop of it.

The fact that it took **A GAME WIDE NERF** for people to say **CORE NECRO IS BROKEN** says a lot about **A LOT OF PLAYERS** and their view points on the game up to this point. Necro was in an ok place when everyone had the dps to blow it shroud away in 3s but now thats not happening and its quote on quote **"Broken."**

> @"memausz.7264" said:

> How am I supposed to play holo to any meaningful extent now?

By planning your attacks properly and not running at some one knowing they wont be able to cc you because you fat fingered your free stability button.

By playing Holo smith and not Yolo smith which is what most people did before hand with that stability abuse.

By investing in defenses instead of depending on your offensive damage to be your main defense

By realizing that other professions also got heavy cuts in areas that made them weaker which means you are safter without the stability than you might thing..

Any or all of the above might help you with your question.

@"Genesis.5169"

@"Wayne.6253"

Im just gonna throw this out there for perspective purposes but.... try letting a warrior rampage auto you its literally about the same levels of damage

The difference

Warrior rampage = melee but has lower cooldown on accessing it, has more reliable cc, takes lower incoming damage for the duration.

Necro Lich = Ranged projectile has higher cooldown on accessing, easer to land upfront damage, has true (or some what realistic) life steal with grim Spector

Also Edit

The reason you rarely saw lich in the previous patch was because the moment you popped it you got erased. Everyone had far more damage on their basic weapon skills than you did on your lich auto as strong as it is all it did was make you a bigger target of focus.

With damage lowered it can actually be used for a few seconds without being instantly killed

> @"Rickster.8752" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Rickster.8752" said:

> > > I'd like to see them nerf life force generation and max life force. Something like this:

> > > 1, Signet of undeath less effective

> > > 2, Fear of death gives 7% life force (not 15%)

> > > 3, Soul battery - max life force increased by 10%, not 20%.

> > > 4, Gluttony - increased LF gain is 5% not 10%

> > >

> > > With all these changes I think necro might be kind of terrible. So I would like to see stability put on spectral armour (and lower protection up time) to stop the CC chaining.

> > >

> > > Obviously these nerfs need to come in alongside nerfs to every other class too, as every class has things over-performing. Literally every class needs nerfs, obviously firebrand, a few ele specs, ranger pets, thief stealth, rev invincibility, mirage condi spam, etc etc all need nerfing still.

> >

> > ok well i dont agree with all of this but some of it might be ok

> >

> > **Undeath going back to 2% from 3%**

> > I was a user of Undeath for over a year before it got buffed and it was fine back then juts that everyone elses damage was so high that shroud melted too fast so we needed more lf.

> > **Fear of death should drop to 10% from 15%**

> > cutting it in half is a bit much. but droping it by 33% to start would be more in line with the other changes not 50%

> > **Soul battery** is fine actually dont touch it its not the problem you are litteraly aiming blind now.

> > **Gluttony** again is actually fine too its also not the problem keep in mind that 10% turns 3% gain into a 3.3% gain its not as big as you think. For a minor to only have that fuction and nothing else tapped onto its fine. Your other suggestions also cut direct sources of incoming LF gain dont also nerf the minior thats meant boost the gains slightly and serves no other function.

> >

> > **Vampiric rituals** will need a healing reduction per well pulse cut it by 33% or so

> >

> > Thats honestly all you need to touch at most for right now.

> > Undeath

> > Fear of Death

> > Vamp rituals

>

> That is fair. I would like to see soul battery be a little worse though. i dislike how it scales with vitality. In the short term I would like to see it nerfed slightly though as it promotes shroud camping with is boring af

Well i mean nerfing soul battery wont stop it from scaling with vitality its clear that anet wants people to consider vitality over toughness with necro even the most recent death magic grand master scales with vitality. I think scaling with vitality is fine because its a choice you make before hand not mid fight in most situations. That wont stop people from shroud campping shroud is the partial defense of necromancer you use it when you dont want to lose hp. Nerfing soul battery will not change this play style because its in the base design of how the class works.

Keep in mind other professions before now ate necros with that current version of soul battery and other lf gain increases with ease. The point of patches going forward is to not put necro at the bottom of the totem pole where it was before because thats thematically how its been for a while which is why it underperformed so much. ITs to actually get it in line or others in line with it. To do that means it needs to be able to stand up to the punishment that would other wise be blocked/ evaded by other professions when it does not have those options. To balance it in a way where it needs to die just as fast as everything else does without those block/evade/stability/hard defense tools/etc is very unjustified hard balancing.

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> they should change signet of undeath passive to something else. maybe a passive minion heal or something. shave blood gm, shave fear of death, and maybe shave signet gm. don't destroy a core class anet. also maybe perma prot in death magic isn't such a great idea.

doing all of these changes at once would distory a core class with low base damage, slow condi ramp, no mobility, no extra evades, and no blocks if you didnt know.

> @"Rickster.8752" said:

> I'd like to see them nerf life force generation and max life force. Something like this:

> 1, Signet of undeath less effective

> 2, Fear of death gives 7% life force (not 15%)

> 3, Soul battery - max life force increased by 10%, not 20%.

> 4, Gluttony - increased LF gain is 5% not 10%

>

> With all these changes I think necro might be kind of terrible. So I would like to see stability put on spectral armour (and lower protection up time) to stop the CC chaining.

>

> Obviously these nerfs need to come in alongside nerfs to every other class too, as every class has things over-performing. Literally every class needs nerfs, obviously firebrand, a few ele specs, ranger pets, thief stealth, rev invincibility, mirage condi spam, etc etc all need nerfing still.

ok well i dont agree with all of this but some of it might be ok

**Undeath going back to 2% from 3%**

I was a user of Undeath for over a year before it got buffed and it was fine back then juts that everyone elses damage was so high that shroud melted too fast so we needed more lf.

**Fear of death should drop to 10% from 15%**

cutting it in half is a bit much. but droping it by 33% to start would be more in line with the other changes not 50%

**Soul battery** is fine actually dont touch it its not the problem you are litteraly aiming blind now.

**Gluttony** again is actually fine too its also not the problem keep in mind that 10% turns 3% gain into a 3.3% gain its not as big as you think. For a minor to only have that fuction and nothing else tapped onto its fine. Your other suggestions also cut direct sources of incoming LF gain dont also nerf the minior thats meant boost the gains slightly and serves no other function.

**Vampiric rituals** will need a healing reduction per well pulse cut it by 33% or so

Thats honestly all you need to touch at most for right now.

Undeath

Fear of Death

Vamp rituals

> @"Wayne.6253" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Wayne.6253" said:

> > > The only way to beat a necro in 2v2 is to have a Necro in team, too much sustain, lot of damage, impossible too kill also if downed.

> > > What happens to this balance patch? Devs didn't test it?

> >

> > This could just be an idea but... have you tried using CC on the necro?

> > Have you possibly tried maybe not focusing the necro first anymore maybe thats not a valid strategy now in this big shift?

> > Also keep in mind the 2v2 mode is not exactly balanced in general the game was never built for it really 2v2 is pretty much still new and if they balanced around 2v2 mainly then 5v5 would be a kitten shoot.

> >

>

> i think actually also in 5v5 necro is too OP, so a general nerf is needed

Maybe on a few things like some stuff in blood magic i could agree with you.

But overall necro was heavily underperforming before and based most of its success on boon corruption which got nerfed rather considerably.

Again try cc'ing the necro possibly if its tanky try focusing the other targets first and then taking on the necro when its more advantageous you might find out that the necromancers teammates are just as broken as the necro is in your eyes.

Again people have gotten into the standard of focusing the necro first. That might not be a viable strategy now that its simply not free with most professions not having perma lethal damage all the time. They might be tanky but they struggle to dodge hits and have near 0 stability. IF you are super tanky your damage will be even lower than everyone elses in the current meta.

I m not saying somethings wont be nerfed im sure some will but keep in mind that necro was underperforming before and thats what you and everyone else is use to many people still think its the norm that it should die in 5s or less which is certainly not the case for any player who is some what aware of whats going on and at least has an average skill level.

Keep it viable dont force it into underperforming in this new meta we are going into. Even if nerfs in some areas are justified keep it viable. :+1:

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > > > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > >

> > > > **Let me just say one thing: you posted a oneshot video of soulbeast a few months ago. I suggest you do a core necro farming video with a similar build (maul and worldy impact and all that stuff are still crazy esp against a target that has to facetank all that kitten).**

> > > >

> > >

> > > I took you up on that challenge after reading this.

> > >

> > > Can't wait to see what everyone has to say about it after this is posted, especially the Necro Mains.

> > >

> > > This is that build that I had noticed pre-patch btw, and boy did it turn out to be really strong post-patch.

> > >

> > > I wouldn't normally go out of my way like this for a class I do not main, but this is crazy. I do not take damage for 10 minutes in the video. It needs to be discussed & reviewed boys. When people start honing in more on builds like this, we're gonna have a problem with game functionality.

> > >

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" @"Sigmoid.7082" @"Happy Yes.1453" @"apharma.3741" @"Multicolorhipster.9751" @"Tayga.3192" @"Dantheman.3589" @"Azure The Heartless.3261" @"Levijeh.9643" @"Spellhunter.9675" @"EremiteAngel.9765" @"Axl.8924" @"ZDragon.3046" @"reikken.4961" @"lighter.2708" @"Dadnir.5038" @"Burnfall.9573" @"Crab Fear.1624" @"James.1065" @"Bossun.2046" @"ZeftheWicked.3076" @"Infect.2738" @"Stand The Wall.6987" @"SPESHAL.9106" @"zoopop.5630" @"witcher.3197" @"Dahkeus.8243" @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" @"OddFinrir.6801"

> > >

> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHq1o6i36_s

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Now my only question is for you to go out and do a bunker build on every other profession and see how it holds up over the past few days ive seen several bunker builds on several professions and many of them seem prettty strong trevor.

> >

>

> Already went there. Everything else has to actually kite and disengage, and heal cycle. The Core Necro literally does not need to exit combat. It actually thrives the more targets there are to hit, due to the massive overly large amount of life steal. Also, due to it NOT being a self might propagating machine, it seriously benefits from being in team fights when others are granting it might, and fury for that matter. This build is over powered man.

Necro cant exit combat??? With What mobility? With What defenses tools other than shroud soaking?

Even if you tried to exit combat in 90% of cases your aggressors will just follow you so why would you bother trying to disengage. Rarely can you make a play to actually disengage combat with necro. Had some one come up on you with the build you used on your ranger you would not have survived like that. FFA arena is a very wide range of skill so you cant deem something op based on how it playes there.

Look at how slow and sluggish your mobility is in this video now think about that trying to disengage and heal.

You will not disengage unless your foe lets you disengage thats how stuck necro is. So before trying to force it into the stanard that is every other profession consider what it actually does and does not have and what it can and cannot do.

Aslo dont talk about the might. ITs the main boon necro has and even that got nerfed reasonably hard along with everyone else.

>

> > As some one else also pointed out any death in the anrea also provides life force which will not happen in spvp matches as common as they do in your video. So your sustain will actually see a massive drop in matches where a study rate of LF is not incoming from deaths you had no part in.

> >

>

> Nah, this build actually doesn't need life force it's so tanky. I'll make a 2v2/conquest video on it by the end of the day here.

No you need to make a 5v5 conquest video trevor. The game is not balanced for 2v2 there are several builds over-performing in 2v2 right now so that would not be accurate. The game was never balanced for 2v2 and we all know that if it was 5v5 would be an even bigger hot mess than it was before. If anet starts nerfing things based on 2v2 conquest its going to trip up 5v5 and 15v15 they have coming in the future. 2v2 should literally be just a fun thing to do on the side kind of deal. IF they want to help 2v2 a bit then add ban-able mach up options to pevent the over use of 1 profession or elite as some people always have one elite or another they dont want to fight. Thats how you balance 2v2 without doing another skill split for it.

>

> > Can you also really make claims based only on FFA where not only your tiny bits of damage are hitting your target but anyone else hitting you is also hitting your target which results in your target taking more damage than you would actually normally do since there is no easy way for people to not hit each other even if both might be trying to hit you.

> >

>

> Yes because in actual team fights, my team mates actually focus a target. In 1v1s so far, nothing, even top players can't get this off a node 1v1. And you can 1v2 for like 5 minutes before even 2x heavy DPS players can realistically kill you or even make you retreat off the node for a decap.

I doubt that if anyone has as much dps as you silly 1 shot attempting ranger build it certainly wont take 5 mins to put necro off a node.

>

> > Also where is the vide of your ranger doing insane amounts of dps after the patch dont think i didnt see you doing that the other night ;)

> > If we are going to cherry pick i want to cherry pick about why your dps is still so high and near insta melts anything it looks at especially if they dont see you coming.

>

> Oh I'll get to it. I figured out how to still kill a top 100 FB in about 2 seconds. Also noticed that Druid worked to viability again, so I'll get around to that as well. Just right now Core Necro is blowing my mind because you actually don't take damage on this build. I keep hearing people post-patch say: "Bunker Druid is back" No it's not. Druid is a 1v1 Duelist at best still, and you can kite 1v2 with it if you're good, but you can't hold a node with it. Druid has long since lost its Bunker status. This Core Necro however, is a true Bunker spec.

>

So druid cant bunker but necro can so it should be nerfed i mean i guess...

But no seriously ima need people to accept that so long as anet balances properly necro wont go back to being as free as it was

Core is doomed to always be tanky no matter what cause its damage is so low compared to other professions. Core still lacks evades, blocks, mobility, and a wide boon table and its not acceptable to nerf it so that it dies in the same number of hits as any other profession with those tools running similar stats. That would be extremely unjustified for what should be obvious reasons.

> @"Wayne.6253" said:

> The only way to beat a necro in 2v2 is to have a Necro in team, too much sustain, lot of damage, impossible too kill also if downed.

> What happens to this balance patch? Devs didn't test it?

This could just be an idea but... have you tried using CC on the necro?

Have you possibly tried maybe not focusing the necro first anymore maybe thats not a valid strategy now in this big shift?

Also keep in mind the 2v2 mode is not exactly balanced in general the game was never built for it really 2v2 is pretty much still new and if they balanced around 2v2 mainly then 5v5 would be a crap shoot.

> @"Endrance.5013" said:

> While i prefered the original, the problem here is that we came from a "good skill" to a skill you are not even sure if you want to use it.

> There are 2 quick solutions to the current state.

>

> Either add a skill to end Obsidian Flesh earlier, so you can use it to block that specific attack and then get back to fighting.

>

> The other solution i believe it would be better.

> Allow you to Transform Obisidian Flesh to Barrier depending on the time left. You would gain around 500 barrier for each second left when you transform.

>

> This way the skill would be useful in any aspect

I dont oppose the idea of being able to end the skill early for sake of QoL thats fair imo.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> >

> > **Let me just say one thing: you posted a oneshot video of soulbeast a few months ago. I suggest you do a core necro farming video with a similar build (maul and worldy impact and all that stuff are still crazy esp against a target that has to facetank all that kitten).**

> >

>

> I took you up on that challenge after reading this.

>

> Can't wait to see what everyone has to say about it after this is posted, especially the Necro Mains.

>

> This is that build that I had noticed pre-patch btw, and boy did it turn out to be really strong post-patch.

>

> I wouldn't normally go out of my way like this for a class I do not main, but this is crazy. I do not take damage for 10 minutes in the video. It needs to be discussed & reviewed boys. When people start honing in more on builds like this, we're gonna have a problem with game functionality.

>

> @"Leonidrex.5649" @"Sigmoid.7082" @"Happy Yes.1453" @"apharma.3741" @"Multicolorhipster.9751" @"Tayga.3192" @"Dantheman.3589" @"Azure The Heartless.3261" @"Levijeh.9643" @"Spellhunter.9675" @"EremiteAngel.9765" @"Axl.8924" @"ZDragon.3046" @"reikken.4961" @"lighter.2708" @"Dadnir.5038" @"Burnfall.9573" @"Crab Fear.1624" @"James.1065" @"Bossun.2046" @"ZeftheWicked.3076" @"Infect.2738" @"Stand The Wall.6987" @"SPESHAL.9106" @"zoopop.5630" @"witcher.3197" @"Dahkeus.8243" @"NecroSummonsMors.7816" @"OddFinrir.6801"

>

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHq1o6i36_s

>

>

>

Now my only question is for you to go out and do a bunker build on every other profession and see how it holds up over the past few days ive seen several bunker builds on several professions and many of them seem prettty strong trevor. Lets not only question the necro here but also the fact that just generally the meta shifted too close to bunker than we were hoping for.

As some one else also pointed out any death in the anrea also provides life force which will not happen in spvp matches as common as they do in your video. So your sustain will actually see a massive drop in matches where a study rate of LF is not incoming from deaths you had no part in.

Can you also really make claims based only on FFA where not only your tiny bits of damage are hitting your target but anyone else hitting you is also hitting your target which results in your target taking more damage than you would actually normally do since there is no easy way for people to not hit each other even if both might be trying to hit you.

Overall you need to consider all of the above things before you start claiming "its too much" There are several factors that really dont come to the light in FFA that would change in a sPvP match.

Is a it a strong bunker build yes will some one kill it in 1v1 prob not if 3 people jump on you and are not also hitting each other its prob gonna be the same result as necro pre patch... you die.

Just keep the above things in mind before hand testing it in actual matches might be a more accurate representation if you are going to do a video FFA has way too many factors that actually make the build stronger than what it is.

Also where is the vide of your ranger doing insane amounts of dps after the patch dont think i didnt see you doing that the other night ;)

If we are going to cherry pick i want to cherry pick about why your dps is still so high and near insta melts anything it looks at especially if they dont see you coming.

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> > > @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> > > It's worth noting that the capabilities of Engineer as a profession, even core Engineer, aren't entirely derived from charr technology.

> >

> > It's also worth noting Charr pioneered the Engineer class.

>

> Yes, and your point is? That's well known. The point is that just because an Engineer does something doesn't mean that what they're doing was invented by the charr. A lot of it is, to be sure, but if you're looking at something that logically requires golem parts (drones and most automated turrets) or some other deliberate use of magic, there's a good chance you're looking at some other race's contribution. The charr pioneered the profession (in its current form, anyway - there were engineers back in GW1 that were probably more advanced than the charr at the time, but back then it was more of a "someone who builds and maintains machines" rather than the GW2 concept of the engineer), but that doesn't mean that everything the profession uses was invented by the charr.

>

> Which is the point I was making: just because something appears in the Engineer's list of gadgets, explosives, and potions doesn't mean it was invented by a charr, and, by extension, the use of magic in some engineer skills does not mean that use of magic is commonplace in charr technology.

>

> (Yes, scrappers have drones and the original scrappers were charr salvage specialists, but what they were salvaging from included a lot of asura tech.)

Charr have been master engineers from the core game (or thats how its presented) which is likely why the original splash art of the profession was charr from the start. The whole way they presented the profession more or less screamed charr thematically and while the comment of "Charr pioneered the Engineer class" may not be factual in any wiki its certainly screams it based on almost everything in core engineer's kit. and how anet presented it. There is tons of charr engineer splash art for a reason and why they continue to do engi elite splash art as charr as well. Charr are certainly smarter in anets head cannon than i think most people want to give them credit for.

Its fair to say that the charr possibly could have pushed any engineering from what it was in gw1 to what it is now in gw2 as their civilization stabilized more. I also want to imagine that charr learn from other races when they deem its necessary to do so and only then at that. Anet has never presented them as the type to actively seek help especially if they are part of the legions. As a charr one of the story paths takes you on a mini quest where you more or less build your own design of a gun that disperses ghost so i mean if they can build that im sure they can build all kinds of things.

I think when people think of charr tech they only consider the clock work and mechanical stuff but im sure some charr are good with chemicals and other things too which can be combined with the mechanical side of things after all charr were / are very agaist magic and at best consider it a tool but nothing to be trusted.

We also know charr copters existed long before HoT and scrapper so if a charr can make those gyros based on similar stuff to their own tech out of junk then thats more impressive but the tech was there long before scrapper concepts came around.

Considering we dont need an understanding and control of some magical force in the real world to make mechanical devices fly i dont see why the charr couldnt have made choppers all on their own ;) even without help from say the asura. Im not saying you're wrong but im not saying you're right either.

> @"Aigleborgne.2981" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > > > > This change was unnecessary in PvP.

> > > >

> > > > Being untouchable while being able to deal damage for free with no restrictions for a few seconds against some one who does not have the same ability....... yeah it was an unnecessary change alright...

> > >

> > > Warrior can do that can't they? What about thf and pistol wipe. That's kinda an invuln but with evades, what about Gaurdain blocks that's kinda an invuln as well. I don not see your point. Ele has so little to begin with. Yes sword skills are op, imo any skills that has evade frames is op and shouldn't exist.

> >

> > No warrior cannot do it no.

> > Lets be clear invunerablity means you cannot have any interactions take place with you from other players no matter what they do.

> > No boon strip

> > No cc

> > No Condition application (means you cant blind / slow/ cripple)

> > No condi damage

> > No strike damage

> > No effects from ward skills like Spectral ring/ Ring of Warding (which will even stop evades)

> >

> > You literally cannot be stopped by any means

> > If you are going to have this power you should not be able to interact with others either as a result

> >

> > Now lets compare that to warrior skills

> > **Endure Pain** Has interaction

> > Boon strip still works

> > CC still works

> > Conditions can still be applied

> > Condition damage still works

> > No strike damage

> > Effects from wards still work

> >

> > **Defiant stance** Your damage does not work but you can still interact with them via cc

> > Boon strip still works

> > CC still works

> > Conditions can still be applied (you can still blind them for example)

> > Both power and condition damage do not work

> > Effects from wards still work

> >

> > Pistol whip is an evade and have you tried shocking aura? Shuts it down like instantly

> >

> > Lets be clear here

> > invulns are not the same as evades

> > invulns are not the same as damage negations that dont stop cc and condition application etc

> >

> > Being invulnerable is in a league of its own and should be balanced as such if you cant see this then thats a bit of a problem. One has counter-play the other does not.

> >

> > >

> > > Obsidian flesh offers nothing to a team fight as a burst dps except self survival. And on a 50 second cool down for 3 seconds if u u cant play around that then you lack proper skills your self, and obviously been out played.

> >

> > Correction if you need a skill that makes you invuln to everything in the game while braindead running at a target and pulsing fire aoes for 90% of your damage then you lack proper skills. Fixed that for you.

> >

> >

>

> You clearly made valid points. However, in its current state, it is not that good, and I think twice before using it because of its lockdown.

> Elementalist is the most squishy profession and by choosing focus, you definitely kitten your damage or offensive abilities. Obsidian Flesh was a good part of focus identity.

>

And it still can be a good part of its identity for defensive purposes. No other professions really should have the power to do this and truth be told most of them dont. I dont think ele should be an exception.

The the way the game was progressing being unstoppable and untouchable while being free to do any amount of dps pressure you want with nothing to contest you is very imbalanced. Even if people were able to adapt on the fly and evade for the 3 seconds its still just not a properly balanced tool Skills like that simply should never exists without cost and in most games they dont. Many other mmo's ive played if you go invulnerable one of two things happens.

1: you cant take action against anyone aside from movement (and sometimes you cant even do that depending on the class and the game) In many cases you are rooted or movement is considerably reduced making it easier for foes to reposition which discourages the user from using that invulnerability power in an offensive manner and encourages exclusively pure defensive tactics around it.

2 your damage is reduced so much that you dont bother using your skills anyways because you would basically be wasting cooldowns

In gw2 neither of these things was happening which makes skills like this imbalanced. Invunerability is a very powerful tool and should be balanced in a league of its own. Not to be comapred with things like evades or endure pain etc.

Having outgoing damage and condition duration be considerably reduced by like a big chunk like 66% or something while it was active would have perhaps been a more justified nerf how ever if the goal is to make all things some what standard it means limiting what the caster can do while its active in some way. Like i said the only other invuln that kind of breaks the rule is distortion and i feel the same way about it too.

> Now, I would rather have Endure Pain than Obsidian Flesh in its current state.

And that would be totally fair imo. Cause endure pain has multiple forms of counter-play and is not a true invulnerability.

Could ask chrono and scourges the same question really. Its not like mirage is the only one its just late to the party as usual.

im still thinking that mirage will pop back up in 3-6 weeks when some one figures out how to play it with on dodge lol.

Mesmer has always been a late bloomer after a big change so i wont be surprised if its also the case this time

That said mirage needed to have some kind of weakness for the power it gained in taking the mirage traits in general.

Anet messed up from its core design when they put ambush attacks on dodge instead of the shatter skills where they should have been. Mesmer should have always been forced to play around using its shatter skills and for the longest time in the meta mirage proactively encouraged not shattering to keep insane constant condi application while just evading anything that came at it (by evading i mean kiting not just dodging)

Then you have the whole issue of being able to dodge while cc that was never addressed no matter how much people called it out. Nothing was worse than landing a well timed cc and being punished by ambush attacks from distant clones for it. (Feels bad man)

Overall though there were very few builds / professions that could really shut mirage down quick and a big chunk of mirage players wanted those hard counters nerfed for **"some reason"**

I suspect this wont be tine final trade off for mirage but this is a temporary attempt to balance it more in line with the other elites. Anet might give the dodge back in a future patch but it should still come with a cost of some sort mirage certainly cant go without a trade off for the prowess it gains from the current version of ambush attacks and mirage cloak.

> @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > > > > > > This change was unnecessary in PvP.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Being untouchable while being able to deal damage for free with no restrictions for a few seconds against some one who does not have the same ability....... yeah it was an unnecessary change alright...

> > > > >

> > > > > Warrior can do that can't they? What about thf and pistol wipe. That's kinda an invuln but with evades, what about Gaurdain blocks that's kinda an invuln as well. I don not see your point. Ele has so little to begin with. Yes sword skills are op, imo any skills that has evade frames is op and shouldn't exist.

> > > >

> > > > No warrior cannot do it no.

> > > > Lets be clear invunerablity means you cannot have any interactions take place with you from other players no matter what they do.

> > > > No boon strip

> > > > No cc

> > > > No Condition application (means you cant blind / slow/ cripple)

> > > > No condi damage

> > > > No strike damage

> > > > No effects from ward skills like Spectral ring/ Ring of Warding (which will even stop evades)

> > > >

> > > > You literally cannot be stopped by any means

> > > > If you are going to have this power you should not be able to interact with others either as a result

> > > >

> > > > Now lets compare that to warrior skills

> > > > **Endure Pain** Has interaction

> > > > Boon strip still works

> > > > CC still works

> > > > Conditions can still be applied

> > > > Condition damage still works

> > > > No strike damage

> > > > Effects from wards still work

> > > >

> > > > **Defiant stance** Your damage does not work but you can still interact with them via cc

> > > > Boon strip still works

> > > > CC still works

> > > > Conditions can still be applied (you can still blind them for example)

> > > > Both power and condition damage do not work

> > > > Effects from wards still work

> > > >

> > > > Pistol whip is an evade and have you tried shocking aura? Shuts it down like instantly

> > > >

> > > > Lets be clear here

> > > > invulns are not the same as evades

> > > > invulns are not the same as damage negations that dont stop cc and condition application etc

> > > >

> > > > Being invulnerable is in a league of its own and should be balanced as such if you cant see this then thats a bit of a problem. One has counter-play the other does not.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Obsidian flesh offers nothing to a team fight as a burst dps except self survival. And on a 50 second cool down for 3 seconds if u u cant play around that then you lack proper skills your self, and obviously been out played.

> > > >

> > > > Correction if you need a skill that makes you invuln to everything in the game while braindead running at a target and pulsing fire aoes for 90% of your damage then you lack proper skills. Fixed that for you.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > U didn't fix anything. How can u say shocking aura is a counter to pistol wipe/evade frames. Not every class has it and well only specific builds has and can utilize shocking aura effectivity and well the amount that pistol wipe can be used vs the access to shocking aura is heavily out balanced. Ur like unable to see two sides to a coin.

> >

> > Because the stun effect is applied when a target strikes you. Even if that target is in evade frames. LOL if you dont know this then you are really the one lacking skill here. im not an ele main and even i know this you can literally kill average pw thieves with Lightning rod tempest and just using shocking aura. They will be forever scared to touch you. I dont know when you started playin gw2 but if you dont know that shocking aura procs through evade frames (so long as the person evading hits you) then you dont have enough exp to tell me i have no idea what im talking about. It honestly sounds like you only know weaver and thats it. If you play properly then you can stop or dramatically slow how well a PW thief does against you on ele.

> >

> > You are however correct not every class has access to shocking aura and not every other class needs that to beat PW thieves. To be blunt lots of other professions already have the tools to counter it like stability, blocks, etc.

> >

> > >

> > > If u cant dodge the 3 seconds that class is invuln for ur lacking skill ur self. No argument will change anyone's mind on that

> >

> > Talk about someone who cant see two sides of a coin here? ^^^

> > What about how it looks from the other persons side when they cant do anything to you but run away seems pretty fair i guess form your perspective.

> > If you need a skill that makes it so no mechanics in the game can contest you you then you should possibly re evaluate the situation. Sure i can play around the 3 second invuln by just running away but that does not mean its acceptably balanced.

> >

> > Ive already listed how other skills on warrior or even other professions dont come close to what invuln does and you had litterally no counter argument and jumped to the topic of PW and shocking aura...... The only other invuln thats as broken as Obsidian flesh is Distortion (which also needs to be looked at). Even renewed focus stops the player from attacking at the very least.

> > Im not going to continue this with you btw (its getting slightly petty cause you just keep saying "you have no skill") but if you feel like you are that skilled we can always brawl some time for fun and we can test your theory on if you can outplay me or not. No hard feelings involved.

> >

>

> U don't understand what people are saying and your aguements fall off point to what others say. No one here needs an explanation of how it works. But you go one to spew garbage about it and not address what I said. I said that not every build/player plays shocking aura. If u understood that then ud know that and not spew garbage.

I did address that you just didnt read

**"You are however correct not every class has access to shocking aura and not every other class needs that to beat PW thieves. To be blunt lots of other professions already have the tools to counter it like stability, blocks, etc."**

Again evades are still not equal to invulnerability no matter how you look at it. Adapt to not being able to attack OF is active or learn to do without it. ITs your choice really. Im not doing this silly argument with you because you will always counter back with "you dont understand" Once some one start doing this for every rebuttal there is no point in continuing the conversation.

Like i said if you want we can do some fights in free for all or something if you want to test skill vs skill for fun no harm no foul no hard feelings but im not going to go back and forth with you when your best argument against facts and logic is "you dont understand" or "You spew garbage."

Have a good day ;)

> @"otto.5684" said:

> @"Rickster.8752" In all the games I played, only thief was able to do any effective power damage. And even then, was completely overshadowed by bunker builds.

>

> @"ZDragon.3046" I disagree. Pre this patch, power damage was in line, for most builds. Only DD thief needed a slight nerf. And remove might stacking beyond 5-10 stacks. The nerf to power damage was unwarranted, unnecessary and completely destroyed the sPvP pacing. TTK now is way too high, and the game overall is pandering to lowest denominator, since it is very easy to overcome mistakes, cuz sustain has been nerfed much less than power damage. With condi spam being the name of the game.

We will will just not agree on this topic then.

IF you think only DD needed a nerf then i consider you insane (no offense) Herald Rev was far more busted than DD was, Firebrand was far most busted than DD was, even weaver was more busted imo than DD was. Even warrior imo was more busted it had more damage and almost evaded just as much the only difference was having less mobility. The game needed some major changes not just with boons but with core standards on what should and should not be in competitive modes. How cc's should work, setting a standard damage value modifier for everyone to use etc. All this was needed. Did anet go to far with some professions.. of course i wont argue that but overall the game in general needed much more than what you are suggesting it only needed.

IF the meta revolves around TTK being less than 5s for 70% or more of meta builds then thats way too fast.

The name of the game was turning into "kill quick or be killed" and not every professions design can support this equally some of them thematically could not support it at all which made a big imbalance from one profession to the next.

IF you couldnt kill quick then you needed perma stealth, perma boon, or mass evade chains with invulns. The game was beyond stale for what most meta builds were and this whole shake up was 100% needed. They can go back and add more damage to shift us slightly farther out of the bunker meta in the next few patches but forget going back to what the game was last patch. I dont want that just as much as i dont want HoT bunker.

> @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > > > > This change was unnecessary in PvP.

> > > >

> > > > Being untouchable while being able to deal damage for free with no restrictions for a few seconds against some one who does not have the same ability....... yeah it was an unnecessary change alright...

> > >

> > > Warrior can do that can't they? What about thf and pistol wipe. That's kinda an invuln but with evades, what about Gaurdain blocks that's kinda an invuln as well. I don not see your point. Ele has so little to begin with. Yes sword skills are op, imo any skills that has evade frames is op and shouldn't exist.

> >

> > No warrior cannot do it no.

> > Lets be clear invunerablity means you cannot have any interactions take place with you from other players no matter what they do.

> > No boon strip

> > No cc

> > No Condition application (means you cant blind / slow/ cripple)

> > No condi damage

> > No strike damage

> > No effects from ward skills like Spectral ring/ Ring of Warding (which will even stop evades)

> >

> > You literally cannot be stopped by any means

> > If you are going to have this power you should not be able to interact with others either as a result

> >

> > Now lets compare that to warrior skills

> > **Endure Pain** Has interaction

> > Boon strip still works

> > CC still works

> > Conditions can still be applied

> > Condition damage still works

> > No strike damage

> > Effects from wards still work

> >

> > **Defiant stance** Your damage does not work but you can still interact with them via cc

> > Boon strip still works

> > CC still works

> > Conditions can still be applied (you can still blind them for example)

> > Both power and condition damage do not work

> > Effects from wards still work

> >

> > Pistol whip is an evade and have you tried shocking aura? Shuts it down like instantly

> >

> > Lets be clear here

> > invulns are not the same as evades

> > invulns are not the same as damage negations that dont stop cc and condition application etc

> >

> > Being invulnerable is in a league of its own and should be balanced as such if you cant see this then thats a bit of a problem. One has counter-play the other does not.

> >

> > >

> > > Obsidian flesh offers nothing to a team fight as a burst dps except self survival. And on a 50 second cool down for 3 seconds if u u cant play around that then you lack proper skills your self, and obviously been out played.

> >

> > Correction if you need a skill that makes you invuln to everything in the game while braindead running at a target and pulsing fire aoes for 90% of your damage then you lack proper skills. Fixed that for you.

> >

> >

>

> U didn't fix anything. How can u say shocking aura is a counter to pistol wipe/evade frames. Not every class has it and well only specific builds has and can utilize shocking aura effectivity and well the amount that pistol wipe can be used vs the access to shocking aura is heavily out balanced. Ur like unable to see two sides to a coin.

Because the stun effect is applied when a target strikes you. Even if that target is in evade frames. LOL if you dont know this then you are really the one lacking skill here. im not an ele main and even i know this you can literally kill average pw thieves with Lightning rod tempest and just using shocking aura. They will be forever scared to touch you. I dont know when you started playin gw2 but if you dont know that shocking aura procs through evade frames (so long as the person evading hits you) then you dont have enough exp to tell me i have no idea what im talking about. It honestly sounds like you only know weaver and thats it. If you play properly then you can stop or dramatically slow how well a PW thief does against you on ele.

You are however correct not every class has access to shocking aura and not every other class needs that to beat PW thieves. To be blunt lots of other professions already have the tools to counter it like stability, blocks, etc.

>

> If u cant dodge the 3 seconds that class is invuln for ur lacking skill ur self. No argument will change anyone's mind on that

Talk about someone who cant see two sides of a coin here? ^^^

What about how it looks from the other persons side when they cant do anything to you but run away seems pretty fair i guess form your perspective.

If you need a skill that makes it so no mechanics in the game can contest you you then you should possibly re evaluate the situation. Sure i can play around the 3 second invuln by just running away but that does not mean its acceptably balanced.

Ive already listed how other skills on warrior or even other professions dont come close to what invuln does and you had litterally no counter argument and jumped to the topic of PW and shocking aura...... The only other invuln thats as broken as Obsidian flesh is Distortion (which also needs to be looked at). Even renewed focus stops the player from attacking at the very least.

Im not going to continue this with you btw (its getting slightly petty cause you just keep saying "you have no skill") but if you feel like you are that skilled we can always brawl some time for fun and we can test your theory on if you can outplay me or not. No hard feelings involved.

> @"XenesisII.1540" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Don Vega Van Kain.9842" said:

> > > Oh gosh, the thing is dead and people still complaining :s people will never stop criticizing the mirage until he loses his clones lul

> >

> > Thats what happens when a profession or elite leaves a bad taste in players mouths... it happened to scourge why are people surprised it wont happen for mirage.

>

> Except scourges are still a big part of the zerg meta, and thieves leave just as much of a bad taste (look at how many thief and stealth threads come up) but instead they get permastealth and even given mesmer tools! Meanwhile mirage got taken to the shed out back, after chrono.

And scourge is not viable in pvp or roaming where as mirage was so i mean take that how you will.

On the topic of thief no matter what anet does you will hate it... its thief... he way its skills are designed to be used will make you always hate it any time it kills you.

Mesmer might need a few weeks before someone figures out how to make 1 dodge work. Keep in mind that when chrono came out people said it was crap and then weeks or months later people figured out how to play it and it was one of the strongest things for a while.

Mirage came out and people said it was crap anet reworked clones and stuff and people still said it was crap but weeks or months later people figured it out and it was low key beyond broken.

Before we deduce that mirage is 100% done for lets give it a few weeks to see what happens. Mesmer has always been a late bloomer and often gets buffs before people even figure out how to adjust and make it work which then results in it being insane.

This also could have been solved if anet gave it a proper trade off back when the community was saying it didnt have one but players pushed back saying "not rolling when i dodge" was reason enough for a trade off which was just silly.

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > Unrelated to FB, condi rev is stronger now and it relatively counters FB.

> > >

> > > As for FB, no surprise here. FB is most susceptible to power burst damage. Guess what was removed from spvp? It is a condi/bunker meta. This is FB domain.

> >

> > I dont think this is factual there has not been enough time yet to deduce that condi rev is stronger than it was and no one can accurately say that because lets be honest condi rev was a rarity before the patch. There were not enough condi rev players (unless you mained it) to really say if its stronger or weaker. But without a doubt there are enough FB users that people without a doubt can say it still pretty over tuned.

> >

> > Core guardian is one of the strongest and most balanced professions in the game only when firebrand is ontop is it busted to heck. Even before the nerfs to power damage firebrand was a problem that needed to be addressed people even said it was not nerfed enough in the patch preview notes lets not act like its a problem as of this patch. Truth is it probably needs a bit more restriction on its tomes and mantras in pvp.

>

> It is true, it is a bit too early to conclude. However, from my experience from playing 8-9 sPvP games I and others best performed using bunker/condi builds. FBs, condi rev and core necro stood out, with FB being the most busted. The overall nerf to sustain was lower than decrease in power builds. The funny thing, condi rev gained sustain due to a new trait that heals you for a bit over 200 while you have resistance, every sec. Resistance also gives 20% power damage reduction, and it has decent access to protection. And I did a couple of 1v2 and 1v1, you can sit there on the point for a while. It lost on damage, this patch, but everyone did, and relatively it is a minor nerf.

To be honest bunker builds right now are busted no matter what profession you play them on. I even saw a few druids and rangers using the rune that applies barrier for a percentage of healing and they were like REALLY REALLY DURABLE. I think some and i say this very lightly SOME! power damage can afford to come back but we should 100% get out of the everything needs to one shot to kill meta that the game was before. I HATED THAT with a passion.

Rev getting damage reduction from resistance was already a thing though people didnt use it cause once again condi mallyx rev was a rarity. This trait was not new by any means. I mean you can consider it new if you want because people are playing mallyx rev now. But to be honest its good that people are having to invest in sustain vs before where rev didnt have to because it more or less had it for free in its full damage builds.

Necro performs better in a low damage meta in general on all accounts because its design is built around soaking hits and not avoiding them. Even if you run a glass build on necro you will perform better in this meta than the previous one where damage soaking means losing all your shroud before you can get your skills off or get in range of your target or just losing all your hp because 2 base dodges no vigor, blocks, evades etc. Expect necros to be stronger in general its not the necro that got buffed really its that everyone else got brought down closer to it level (it was already underperforming in the previous meta and mostly depended on boon corrupts to win ((which is cheesy if you ask me)) Now that everyone else no longer does leathal levels of damage while keeping their sustain it just works better in general its design shines brighter.

That said i think anet made the game slightly more bunker than intended and hope to see them make some adjustments soon. I would personally love traits that act as bunker killers but have near zero or completely zero benefit when fighting against other semi glass or glass foes which anet has really yet to play on.

Firebrand though just honestly was not addressed in this patch and they said they would keep their eyes out for outlandish things i expect them to have their eyes on it and a few things in necros kit to. Im a necro main and i totally see some nerfs in the future as expected lol i just hope they dont think they need to make necro as easy to kill as professions with evades and blocks when it does not have those things.

To be honest up till now i want to assume there probably was no real main factor they looked at what was over or under performing and tried to make it so that they could be either bought down or up while also keeping them strong in pve but now just recently anet chose to do pvp and pve splits which allows them to start making a standard.

I would say this patch was not so much to balance but to get to a starting point where balance could be achieved in the future with ease. IT will also make getting data on things easier now that they for the most part dont need to consider how changing one skills damage or a traits effects could out right kill a profession in end game pve.

Overall though its likely gonna be based on the percentage of players playing a certain build or profession. If after patch a bit shift to firebrand happens for example expect it to be culled down some to balance the spread back out. A large number of players believe it or not like to play flavor of the month or patch and just jump to what ever is the easiest thing to win with.

I would also guess that was part of their balancing strat in the past. The game gets very boring once a certain percentage is just playing the same build on the same profession. Even more so when you have people demanding their hard counters be nerfed (and then anet actually nerfs them)...

> @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Eddbopkins.2630" said:

> > > This change was unnecessary in PvP.

> >

> > Being untouchable while being able to deal damage for free with no restrictions for a few seconds against some one who does not have the same ability....... yeah it was an unnecessary change alright...

>

> Warrior can do that can't they? What about thf and pistol wipe. That's kinda an invuln but with evades, what about Gaurdain blocks that's kinda an invuln as well. I don not see your point. Ele has so little to begin with. Yes sword skills are op, imo any skills that has evade frames is op and shouldn't exist.

No warrior cannot do it no.

Lets be clear invunerablity means you cannot have any interactions take place with you from other players no matter what they do.

No boon strip

No cc

No Condition application (means you cant blind / slow/ cripple)

No condi damage

No strike damage

No effects from ward skills like Spectral ring/ Ring of Warding (which will even stop evades)

You literally cannot be stopped by any means

If you are going to have this power you should not be able to interact with others either as a result

Now lets compare that to warrior skills

**Endure Pain** Has interaction

Boon strip still works

CC still works

Conditions can still be applied

Condition damage still works

No strike damage

Effects from wards still work

**Defiant stance** Your damage does not work but you can still interact with them via cc

Boon strip still works

CC still works

Conditions can still be applied (you can still blind them for example)

Both power and condition damage do not work

Effects from wards still work

Pistol whip is an evade and have you tried shocking aura? Shuts it down like instantly

Lets be clear here

invulns are not the same as evades

invulns are not the same as damage negations that dont stop cc and condition application etc

Being invulnerable is in a league of its own and should be balanced as such if you cant see this then thats a bit of a problem. One has counter-play the other does not.

>

> Obsidian flesh offers nothing to a team fight as a burst dps except self survival. And on a 50 second cool down for 3 seconds if u u cant play around that then you lack proper skills your self, and obviously been out played.

Correction if you need a skill that makes you invuln to everything in the game while braindead running at a target and pulsing fire aoes for 90% of your damage then you lack proper skills. Fixed that for you.

> @"Don Vega Van Kain.9842" said:

> Oh gosh, the thing is dead and people still complaining :s people will never stop criticizing the mirage until he loses his clones lul

Thats what happens when a profession or elite leaves a bad taste in players mouths... it happened to scourge why are people surprised it wont happen for mirage. The damage is done and the scar caused by it is not going to ever heal completely unless anet nerfs it to the point its almost not viable or they rework it into something actually balanced on both sides.

Thats how im seeing it. IF your elite is so busted at some point that it can literally crush 90% of the other professions with whats seen as ez cheese for a long period of time dont be surprised when that 90% dislikes you even after you become less viable or unviable. Thats more or less to be expected. It happens when corporations and bussinesses do bad choices in the real world it also happens when you let a class remain inblanced in mmos for a long period of time.

> @"otto.5684" said:

> Unrelated to FB, condi rev is stronger now and it relatively counters FB.

>

> As for FB, no surprise here. FB is most susceptible to power burst damage. Guess what was removed from spvp? It is a condi/bunker meta. This is FB domain.

I dont think this is factual there has not been enough time yet to deduce that condi rev is stronger than it was and no one can accurately say that because lets be honest condi rev was a rarity before the patch. There were not enough condi rev players (unless you mained it) to really say if its stronger or weaker. But without a doubt there are enough FB users that people without a doubt can say it still pretty over tuned.

Core guardian is one of the strongest and most balanced professions in the game only when firebrand is ontop is it busted to heck. Even before the nerfs to power damage firebrand was a problem that needed to be addressed people even said it was not nerfed enough in the patch preview notes lets not act like its a problem as of this patch. Truth is it probably needs a bit more restriction on its tomes and mantras in pvp.