ZDragon.3046

It would be nice if many things in the game were more refelctive of your characters race.

Lich form is another prime example to be honest as well as several other transform skills and things like minions etc.

But i dont think anet has time to go back and do that kind of polish now. Thats generally something you decided to do at the start of a games development or in big updates like xpacks not just randomly so i dont see them doing it to be honest.

but still it would be nice if they did do it i just dont think its likely at this point.

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Xervite.5493" said:

> > Here's my suggestion give stealth a shimmer effect if the user moves, I've never seen 100% invisible mechanic before.

>

> Then you've really didn't see a lot <.<

>

> Also considering the type of game gw2 is, "shimmer" basically removes almost any purpose from stealth. I don't understand how anyone can think that's a good idea?

I mean depend on how well its done

Blade and soul does the stealth shimmer very well for its assassin class.

Literally impossible to see at a distance when not moving and struggles to be seen accurately when moving and you need to be in combat range for that.

Then again that game handles stealth differently as taking any damage knocks the effect off but they have better mechanical options of getting into stealth otherthan just press 5 and dodge or press 5 and 2. They have things that when the other player makes the right choice they can be punished for. A counter that grants stealth for example.

Now this all said i dont think anet has the tech to do it well enough to match what im trying to discribe in the event you have never seen it so...... i dont think players will agree on a shimmer effect being a thing for all types of stealth.

Maybe it would be ok for a lesser stealth or non thief professions but even then thats something a lot of people probably will not agree on.

If it was up to me there would be 2 types of stealth camouflage and actual stealth.

Camouflage is lesser and gained by non utility skills and combo fields... it has a shimmer effect or some kind of thing that makes it lesser.

True stealth is total invisibility generally only gained from thief traits and most utility skills.

Again though most people wont agree with this ^

I say just add more reveal skills to the game and try the luck with that first. There has been a major increase in ways to enter stealth but not as drastic of an up roar in skills that reveal stealth players.

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

>

> Engi does not really break that pattern of lacking reveals.

> Core Engi has 2 reveal tools: the trait "Lock on", that will reveal targets you hit, and the AoE reveal skill Detection Pulse, which is the toolbelt skill of Utility Goggles.

>

> Scrapper lacks an own reveal skill, the one which scrapper had has been Detection Pulse, which got moved to core engi instead. And that as the toolbelt skill of Utility Goggles, which are extremely lacking right now (I don't think anyone is using that skill anymore).

> Holosmith also has no own reveal skill.

>

Well ill be darn then.... all the more reason to add more reveal skills under elite options imo.

Well i lost my post but basically in a nutshell

**CC and Stunbreaks**

Stab on break stuns especially those stunbreaks with a cast time = yes please do it.

**Quickness**

Quickness change is un-needed and feels mostly reaper targeted despite you not wanting to target any professions specifically. Its the main offender that most people look at when it comes down to competitive play and quickness because it depends on it so heavily.

Simply tell anet to speed up base reaper shroud skills by roughly 33% to make them feel modern and in line with everything else in the game and remove the quickness from the grand master trait which would still be an attack speed nerf but solve reapers problem of being dependent on quickness.

**Conditions**

Condi removal is a whole different monster i dont think your ideal will make the situation fair for condi builds I personally would prefer a hard cap on how high each damaging condition can stack in competitive modes to lock them into really being damage over time that wont always easily outshine power burst.

Burning max stack count 5

Poison, Bleeding, Confusion, Torment max stack count 10

etc etc

As someone else also pointed out leaving the idea to work that way will mean that it might become harder to remove or easier to cover non damaging suppressive conditions like chill, cripple, slow, etc.

**Stealth**

Stealth is not easily fixable and people wont agree with you and thats really the end of story on this. The reason why that is because thief mains almost never agree with stealth balance changes made by non main thief players and non thief mains never agree with suggestions from thief mains. They pretty much will not except anymore nerfs without damage return compensation being part of the suggestion. And we know how thiefs get when they get high levels of damage people then complain its obnoxious and then demand it be nerfed. While i agree anet needs to rework stealth i dont think your suggestion is particularly a good one that anyone will agree on ive made similar suggestions in the past.

The one part of stealth changes i do agree on is that any offensive action should reveal during its cast time and not on impact strike. This would probably make a bigger impact without having to do direct stealth nerfs like being able to see the stealth player within a set range.

**AoE**

I dont really see aoe as a massive issue except in a few spots like Renegade Rev spirits. Which anet already knows might need some mechanical changes. But most aoes are standard for zone control. What i dont want to see is this game devolve to the point where you can run through 90% of aoe's without a care in the world as if running through a field of spring flowers because they dont do anything. When zone control tools no longer work as zone control tools because people can run over them willy nilly then that is an issue imo.

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> Suggestion 1 :

>

> - Life Siphon moved to Auto, remains largely the same and additionally restores 0.5% Life force per damage tick

> - New skill 2 which tethers the player to nearest 5 targets in 600 range, pulsing damage and Bleed for 3 ticks, then applying Immob on the last tick.

> - Dark Pact remains mostly the same

>

> Gives the Dagger more kiting potential, and give it a fair Immob condition.

I kind of like the first option here but would it really be worth doubling up on immobs on a single weapon i dont think any other weapon has that kind of power.

Also maybe consider making dark pact a mark instead of a single targeted skill?

Same thing with offhand dagger 5? Turn this into a mark that triggers the skill instead?

Imo marks should be in more places than just on the staff.

If you are getting hit for 7k you are probably bursting players for a similar amount in your own way without using an elite skill but you dont ever really want to talk about that part right. For it to hit 7k on a player it means that player has no investment in defenses and you knew this going into the situation. You are built all for offense and likely doing more damage than the necromancer is outside of its elite without having to use your own elite.

Further more at this point it should be expected that a necromancer especially those built for power damage will have lich on their bar even i fail to think about this from time to time and get caught off guard by sudden lich. But when you think about it its no different from fighting guardians and not expecting them to renewed focus and turn the fight on you because you forgot about it.

Keep in mind this skill last 10s and has a very very very long cooldown while also locking their utility.

Of the 5 skills on the bar skills 2 3 basically deal very little or no damage skill 4 takes a considerable amount of time to summon and its damage is not instant by any means and skill 5 is more like a hp leach over time. There is a reason why the auto hits hard.

While im not a fan of the disengage is the only option vs a skill practice (depending on your profession) making the autos invalidated without considering the rest of the kit combined with previous nerfs is also not acceptable.

My solution to this would be to simply add more tools that apply reveal to each elite spec. It seems like roughly 1 elite spec of all 3 professions has a reveal when in truth every elite should have a skill that reveals in some way.

A few examples.

Core Necro - Shroud 5 can reveal targets that are close ish if you tag them with the shackles

Reaper- lacks a reveal.

Scourge- lacks a reveal.

Core Rev- Lacks a reveal

Herald- Has a very wide range Reveal.

Renegade- Lacks a reveal.

Core Ranger- Has sick em

Druid - Lacks its own utility reveal

Soulbeast - Lacks its own utility reveal.

Basically this process repeats over and over and i think the only profession that breaks this is engineer. I know one of the core traits will reveal if they tag a target in stealth and scrapper has its own tool bealt/ utility option for revealing a target.

Ideally Stealth application when used rapidly + being completely invis for some cases 5+ seconds at a time becomes very frustrating to players depending on their elite spec.

In this game if the target is hidden for 80% of the fight you cant fight it without a reveal skill to hard carry you which as ive shown in my example there is not enough general access to in the game. The most fair way would be to just add reveal options to a skills across each elite even if its just a single skill.

Using reaper is an example. The shout "Nothing Can Save You" Should probably be a reveal on hit. As it implies nothing will save you for a few moments it makes attacks unshockable i dont see why it couldn't also be a reveal. Its just an option and it does not mean every reaper will use the skill but it would be nice to have the option there when you feel like you might need it vs having to play core as your only reveal countermeasure.

Forget all these ideas with targets not breaking and floater numbers and just add a few more reveal skills to the game for each elite. Make depending on stealth too much sometimes hard publishable when the player has the right skills and makes the right reads vs just guessing into the abyss and hoping you hit a target thats totally invisible.

The main QoL that needs to be made is on reaper

Remove quickness from Reapers Onslaught

Reduce cast times on reaper skills 1-5 by about 33%

Make them faster at base but not quickness level fast

Open up all 3 grand masters again much more equal value.

Anything else is more or less going to have to be an out right buff or rework

Scourge - full on rework

Core - gonna be out right buffs

took me about 2 months of killing Teq every day to get a single drop. Back then of course you had to do the mystic forge conversion. Not sure if thats still the case now though.

This was also before HoT i was killing for the GS in preparation for reaper. Ive used the GS ever since then basically.

As far as the drop rate goes I think maybe the best way would have been awarding at least one Teq Chest after completing all of his related world boss achievements which will take most people several Teq runs. Promising 1 weapon at the end of that i dont think would be unfair.

> @"fumcheg.1936" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > I don't get it. it's not really skillful. You steal then immediately press 3 and not only are you a reasonably safe distance away, your opponent is basically melting.

>

> Then you clean this condi burst and just kill this thief. Because it's already out of its **only** gap closer and there is no way it can kill you with auto attack.

>

> By the way as a thief I'm all for 33% reduction for all condi damage in pvp (I'd rather prefer 50% though). Would be more than happy to get rid of all tihs cancer condi guards, revs, mesmers and so on.

Depending on the profession that might not be possible in a decent time frame.

I have a reaper build with 27k hp and when a condi thief burst me even on my best cleanse which would be consume conditions depending on if i was basilisk venom'ed or not I can be at half of that (which is pretty much half the other cast of professions base hp) before i can actually completely channel the skill and thats a full bar clear.

Basically no other profession has that ability on their utility bar (aside from spellbreakers heal) so you want them to burst clears something that melts way faster than most power builds without a skill like consume conditions as an option to them. (i suppose ranger gets close if they run double survival clears with child of earth and TU for the heal which is a 4 condi removal on heal activation)

If im not running consume conditions ill be at roughly a 4th of my health as i have to use 2 utilities to attempt cleansing and then heal immediately (without death magic clears) before i can even think about attacking the thief thats still spamming repeater at a mildly safe distance.

My question is why power builds on thief aside from

- hide or die deadeye (which is not very effective in matches)

- one shot backstab core thief (which is mainly tied to wvw and not that great in matches)

Dont have power damage burst anywhere near that level. Any other power build on thief is just about a joke compared to condi burst thief atm.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524"

Is actually correct here power damage should be above condi damage period and right now its not for the majority of viable and unviable builds. Condi comes out on top.

I think cutting condi damage by 30% would be fair considering also the fact that to make power damage work you need between 2 and 3 stats

**Power, Precision, and ferocity**

Where as condition damage only really needs 1 stat maybe 2 at most

**Condition damage, and maybe some base power** (and thats optional)

Naturally condition builds are likely always have between 30% and 60% of their stats invested in some other attribute thats not offensive because they dont need as many stats to deal damage they simply need to know how to play and hit their targets with their skills the skills themselves dont need to hit hard they just need to connect.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > > Make Deathly Chill similar to Terror instead of making it inflict Bleed.

> > >

> > > Chill causes damage over time.

> > >

> > > Fun.

> >

> > Do people who keep bringing this up just completely not understand why it was change from this originally?

>

> Yep I think so.

>

> @"Yasai.3549" It's not "fun", it's imbalanced. Bound to be to strong in sPvP and abysmal in PvE. It's a plain loss compared to the current design and considering the thread have been opened due to _deathly chill_ feeling to "weak", it's bound to make the trait feel even weaker/useless.

I dont agree

But again

The reason to be perfectly clear is not because it was imbalanced it was due to one reaper overwriting anthers damage in pve meaning when you had more than 1 reaper in any event, fractal, or at this point if it still existed raids. Their damage would would be consistently overwriting each others leading to dps losses for each reaper you brought.

Technically speaking in spvp with all the anti movement inhibiting traits that now exists the old version would be imo considered under-powered especially with chill duration cut to what they are now, the nerfing of chill duration on runes, and the removal of expertise. Chill is not something that says on a player permanently anymore if they play decently smart.

That said due to the nature of the pve issue i doubt it will ever come back. That said Deathly chill has been hit with smiters boon in spvp which is why people want it gone. Because its for the lack of a better word "poo" especially considering anet has yet to QoL base reapers attack speeds forcing people into RO to make reaper feel modern and viable.

If they at least started with upgrading base reaper attack speeds then at least Deathly might, and i use the word loosely, "might!" have some value in spvp but right now its not worth using you take more damage than you can deal with those slow attacks when you go in for melee trades. The only time it will really work is the first time when you surprise someone with it because they dodge incorrectly due to reapers speed being 50% slower than what they are use to seeing.

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > > > > > > Reaper has life force generation on Greatsword though.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In pvp those skills are considerably harder to land on other players especially if you dont want to just be out right hard punished for playing without any caution (you wont get the auto chain on any one who is not a downed body) the only other skills are the 3 and 5 and the 3 can be strong or poor depending on the situation but the 5 is slow and clunky. Still If we are going to nerf passive life force generating traits then increase the amounts on key skills people already know they "should" be dodging. Make life force generation more active and less passive how ever having low active gains combined with low passive gains will lead to issues if they continue to nerf the traits.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would say right now necro in general is riding a line having rough life force generation specifically in spvp where people are not falling over dead in large numbers or you are not hidden behind the safety of dozens of other players like you find in wvw.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Reaper in spvp is exceptionally hard to maintain i consider core power more effective personally cause its easier to gain life force through more trait options and its damage can be on par with reapers, unlike reaper its not limited to melee range to be effective and even on a pure power setup it still has more damage skills on its shroud bar than reaper has. At this point they should consider re working the trade off of reaper costing more for what was suppose to be "more damage" because the damage increase is honestly in most cases not noticeable anymore between the things i said above. Even now more people still want reaper damage lowered because "its too much."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > These are just my idle thoughts though dont take them too seriously.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Flumek.9043" said:

> > > > > > > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > > > > > > Reaper has life force generation on Greatsword though.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > U mean the clunkiest unrealiable lottery ticket?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Id rather buy oil stocks right now than bet on greatsword hitting anything in pvp.

> > > > >

> > > > > Using greatsword correctly is 100% a skill issue. This is a spite/curses build to boot, so no extra LF from soul reaping:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > you do realize that in quite a few or the majority of these spectral grasp is acting as the majority of your life force gain.

> > > > While you do land some good pulls and a few death spirals which is not hard to do (its just not consistent do the nature of the skills) the gs's life force generation is relatively minimal in most situations and it certainly does not compare to the up keep cost of reaper. As i said in my statement about the GS3 can be good or poor depending on the situation i wont say its bad but i wont say "oh its amazing" in truth its situational.

> > > >

> > > > Even in your examples your life force generation is pretty poor but scales up to be much greater in the bigger fights due to the nature of spectral grasp which is a massive generator if you manage to yonk a few people in a single cast. Lets not ignore this as its basically on your bar in the whole compilation of examples in that video.

> > > >

> > > > I mean i commend you because you have great combos and i thank you for sharing but it does not change what i said about necromancers weapon skills vs lf generation in general.

> > > >

> > > > Again my argument is that if anet wants to continue to cut down passive sources then they might want to consider increasing the active sources a bit which i dont think is wrong to argue.

> > >

> > > You're right, i'm using spectral grasp, walk, and ring to generate LF. Which illuminates that you don't need to rely solely on your weapon sets for it. There's plenty of traits and utilities that offer LF, you just need to learn how to use them effectively. GS3 can give more LF than any other weapon skill when used correctly (up to 36%) by pulling enemies close together in melee range so you can cleave them. Dagger MH offers similar synergy, immob with 3 and follow it up with your AA- instead of chasing people around trying to melee them or wasting that immob to land dagger 2. GS's a pretty amazing weapon set, but it's slow and requires that you know how to set up the skills for maximum impact, which is why if you're having trouble with it, it's a skill issue.

> > >

> > > I think a bigger issue with reaper is too many people pop shroud and then stay in it until it runs out, even when they have no moves available to utilize it. You'll find that dropping shroud when it's no longer helpful is going to have a sizeable impact on your ability to use the class.

> > >

> > > When starting out with necro, run soul reaping x/x/1 and you'll have at least 20% LF every time you want to enter shroud. The tools are there, you just need to learn how to use them.

> >

> > Grasp has always been decent in pvp for the sole purpose of building lf quickly especially at the start of a match where anet still chooses to start the necromancer with none! (why thats a thing in 2020 idk) Eternal life is nice but its not worth taking imo (ive been playing long enough to where a 20% start is not going to change much for me in most situations.)

> >

> > Im actually running a blood, spite, reaper build atm with decimate defenses for extra kicks my life force gen is what i would call "ok" but weapons are not the biggest factor in how good my generation is its the utility. Weapons are more minor in determining my life force generation I would say its 70% utility and 30% weapon skills. Where i say things like grasp and spectral walk or armor are the biggest contributors.

> >

> > As for shroud use i already know about dropping out when its not effective that but also consider that in matches where people like to "focus the necro first" Its not uncommon for people to also have their shrouds blown away by incoming damage before they can actually use their moves. I still think right now Life force generation if you dont look at things like spectra grasp is riding a fine line between "ok" and "sub par" Depending on your build of choice.

> >

> > Skill issue or not (depending on who you ask), my point is theoretical (looking toward the future) because i doubt that the nerfs of the recent patch are going to be the only nerfs that come around to necro and its life force generating sources. Ideally people have been gravitating to whatever is left untouched to which sooner or later is nerfed. I wouldnt be surprised if Grasp sees a nerf too at some point if enough people gravitate to it because its not been touched in a while.

> >

> > Im fine with anet cutting passive sources or even possibly utility sources in the future so long as they are willing to balance it out on the weapon side cause right now the weapon side is a bit minor. (which you dont have to agree with of course).

> While i'd like more LF on the weapons, i don't know that it would be balanced in the hands of anyone really familiar with necro. A big part of the skill ceiling for the class is managing LF well =S

This i can agree on if they just boosted the gains as of right now which they likely dont need to do... (wouldnt mind some QoL life force gain on staff though.) having to run soul marks to make a utility weapon into an actually utility weapon is slightly silly. also yes offhand dagger needs help)

Of course like i said the things i said are in theoretical and they may not come true we may not see more life force gain reductions as so many tools have been cut between traits and a few utilities. I just dont want to see a situation where trait gains are cut, utility gains are cut, and weapon generation remains as is which might be a bit too much cutting.

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > > > > Reaper has life force generation on Greatsword though.

> > > >

> > > > In pvp those skills are considerably harder to land on other players especially if you dont want to just be out right hard punished for playing without any caution (you wont get the auto chain on any one who is not a downed body) the only other skills are the 3 and 5 and the 3 can be strong or poor depending on the situation but the 5 is slow and clunky. Still If we are going to nerf passive life force generating traits then increase the amounts on key skills people already know they "should" be dodging. Make life force generation more active and less passive how ever having low active gains combined with low passive gains will lead to issues if they continue to nerf the traits.

> > > >

> > > > I would say right now necro in general is riding a line having rough life force generation specifically in spvp where people are not falling over dead in large numbers or you are not hidden behind the safety of dozens of other players like you find in wvw.

> > > >

> > > > Reaper in spvp is exceptionally hard to maintain i consider core power more effective personally cause its easier to gain life force through more trait options and its damage can be on par with reapers, unlike reaper its not limited to melee range to be effective and even on a pure power setup it still has more damage skills on its shroud bar than reaper has. At this point they should consider re working the trade off of reaper costing more for what was suppose to be "more damage" because the damage increase is honestly in most cases not noticeable anymore between the things i said above. Even now more people still want reaper damage lowered because "its too much."

> > > >

> > > > These are just my idle thoughts though dont take them too seriously.

> > > >

> > >

> > > > @"Flumek.9043" said:

> > > > > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > > > > Reaper has life force generation on Greatsword though.

> > > >

> > > > U mean the clunkiest unrealiable lottery ticket?

> > > >

> > > > Id rather buy oil stocks right now than bet on greatsword hitting anything in pvp.

> > >

> > > Using greatsword correctly is 100% a skill issue. This is a spite/curses build to boot, so no extra LF from soul reaping:

> > >

> > >

> >

> > you do realize that in quite a few or the majority of these spectral grasp is acting as the majority of your life force gain.

> > While you do land some good pulls and a few death spirals which is not hard to do (its just not consistent do the nature of the skills) the gs's life force generation is relatively minimal in most situations and it certainly does not compare to the up keep cost of reaper. As i said in my statement about the GS3 can be good or poor depending on the situation i wont say its bad but i wont say "oh its amazing" in truth its situational.

> >

> > Even in your examples your life force generation is pretty poor but scales up to be much greater in the bigger fights due to the nature of spectral grasp which is a massive generator if you manage to yonk a few people in a single cast. Lets not ignore this as its basically on your bar in the whole compilation of examples in that video.

> >

> > I mean i commend you because you have great combos and i thank you for sharing but it does not change what i said about necromancers weapon skills vs lf generation in general.

> >

> > Again my argument is that if anet wants to continue to cut down passive sources then they might want to consider increasing the active sources a bit which i dont think is wrong to argue.

>

> You're right, i'm using spectral grasp, walk, and ring to generate LF. Which illuminates that you don't need to rely solely on your weapon sets for it. There's plenty of traits and utilities that offer LF, you just need to learn how to use them effectively. GS3 can give more LF than any other weapon skill when used correctly (up to 36%) by pulling enemies close together in melee range so you can cleave them. Dagger MH offers similar synergy, immob with 3 and follow it up with your AA- instead of chasing people around trying to melee them or wasting that immob to land dagger 2. GS's a pretty amazing weapon set, but it's slow and requires that you know how to set up the skills for maximum impact, which is why if you're having trouble with it, it's a skill issue.

>

> I think a bigger issue with reaper is too many people pop shroud and then stay in it until it runs out, even when they have no moves available to utilize it. You'll find that dropping shroud when it's no longer helpful is going to have a sizeable impact on your ability to use the class.

>

> When starting out with necro, run soul reaping x/x/1 and you'll have at least 20% LF every time you want to enter shroud. The tools are there, you just need to learn how to use them.

Grasp has always been decent in pvp for the sole purpose of building lf quickly especially at the start of a match where anet still chooses to start the necromancer with none! (why thats a thing in 2020 idk) Eternal life is nice but its not worth taking imo (ive been playing long enough to where a 20% start is not going to change much for me in most situations.)

Im actually running a blood, spite, reaper build atm with decimate defenses for extra kicks my life force gen is what i would call "ok" but weapons are not the biggest factor in how good my generation is its the utility. Weapons are more minor in determining my life force generation I would say its 70% utility and 30% weapon skills. Where i say things like grasp and spectral walk or armor are the biggest contributors.

As for shroud use i already know about dropping out when its not effective that but also consider that in matches where people like to "focus the necro first" Its not uncommon for people to also have their shrouds blown away by incoming damage before they can actually use their moves. I still think right now Life force generation if you dont look at things like spectra grasp is riding a fine line between "ok" and "sub par" Depending on your build of choice.

Skill issue or not (depending on who you ask), my point is theoretical (looking toward the future) because i doubt that the nerfs of the recent patch are going to be the only nerfs that come around to necro and its life force generating sources. Ideally people have been gravitating to whatever is left untouched to which sooner or later is nerfed. I wouldnt be surprised if Grasp sees a nerf too at some point if enough people gravitate to it because its not been touched in a while.

Im fine with anet cutting passive sources or even possibly utility sources in the future so long as they are willing to balance it out on the weapon side cause right now the weapon side is a bit minor. (which you dont have to agree with of course).

oof that reaper callout just say you dont like reaper with speed runes dang.... lol

that was a lot of low key call outs like people wouldnt figure out what you were talking about or something :#

If other specific utility runes were removed trapper rune needs to be reworked or removed too. Stealth/ supper speed on multiple buttons on the skill bar is really kinda cruddy especially when only 2 professions can make use of it.

I would say take out mad king for its abusive nature with secondary strikes too.

If they dont remove it then they need to rework it. Remove the stealth portion for just a base stat increase and keep the super speed only imo.

it was something probably missed in some way im sad that the effects dont animate for necro's 4 and 5 either but apparently according to the wiki it does it for the core shroud 4 and 5.... i need to test this lol

> @"RisenHowl.2419" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > > Reaper has life force generation on Greatsword though.

> >

> > In pvp those skills are considerably harder to land on other players especially if you dont want to just be out right hard punished for playing without any caution (you wont get the auto chain on any one who is not a downed body) the only other skills are the 3 and 5 and the 3 can be strong or poor depending on the situation but the 5 is slow and clunky. Still If we are going to nerf passive life force generating traits then increase the amounts on key skills people already know they "should" be dodging. Make life force generation more active and less passive how ever having low active gains combined with low passive gains will lead to issues if they continue to nerf the traits.

> >

> > I would say right now necro in general is riding a line having rough life force generation specifically in spvp where people are not falling over dead in large numbers or you are not hidden behind the safety of dozens of other players like you find in wvw.

> >

> > Reaper in spvp is exceptionally hard to maintain i consider core power more effective personally cause its easier to gain life force through more trait options and its damage can be on par with reapers, unlike reaper its not limited to melee range to be effective and even on a pure power setup it still has more damage skills on its shroud bar than reaper has. At this point they should consider re working the trade off of reaper costing more for what was suppose to be "more damage" because the damage increase is honestly in most cases not noticeable anymore between the things i said above. Even now more people still want reaper damage lowered because "its too much."

> >

> > These are just my idle thoughts though dont take them too seriously.

> >

>

> > @"Flumek.9043" said:

> > > @"Infusion.7149" said:

> > > Reaper has life force generation on Greatsword though.

> >

> > U mean the clunkiest unrealiable lottery ticket?

> >

> > Id rather buy oil stocks right now than bet on greatsword hitting anything in pvp.

>

> Using greatsword correctly is 100% a skill issue. This is a spite/curses build to boot, so no extra LF from soul reaping:

>

>

you do realize that in quite a few or the majority of these spectral grasp is acting as the majority of your life force gain.

While you do land some good pulls and a few death spirals which is not hard to do (its just not consistent do the nature of the skills) the gs's life force generation is relatively minimal in most situations and it certainly does not compare to the up keep cost of reaper. As i said in my statement about the GS3 can be good or poor depending on the situation i wont say its bad but i wont say "oh its amazing" in truth its situational.

Even in your examples your life force generation is pretty poor but scales up to be much greater in the bigger fights due to the nature of spectral grasp which is a massive generator if you manage to yonk a few people in a single cast. Lets not ignore this as its basically on your bar in the whole compilation of examples in that video.

I mean i commend you because you have great combos and i thank you for sharing but it does not change what i said about necromancers weapon skills vs lf generation in general.

Again my argument is that if anet wants to continue to cut down passive sources then they might want to consider increasing the active sources a bit which i dont think is wrong to argue.

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > The main thing that needs to be nerfed in the build is the pistol stealth attack.

> > By no means should all 5 shots be 100% chance of projectile finishers making it a rapid blind applicator which pretty much heavily limits any counter pressure as the smoke field the used for stealth is usually still in play when they unload the attack on you.

> >

> > No other rapid fire skills in the game have 100% projectile finisher chance anymore im not sure why it still exist on thief pistol stealth attack (its likely because anet missed it) way back when the redid the projectile finisher combo system.

> >

> > The other mild issue as why people find the build super frustrating to fight is because like any stealth build in this game stealth makes up 80% of the fight time which leaves minimal counter pressure. Condis are also the safer options right now with strike damage being reduced. Basically if you dont have high burst condi cleanse, and a reveal on the ready your odds of having a fair chance to win the build match up is very minimal imo especially if you are built offensive.

> >

> > The way stealth works in this game i consider some one who stealth's for 80% of the time it takes for one of the two players to die is basically equal to not having a target to fight which is even worse if you are locked to melee combat.

> >

> > Thief players might not agree but people are right the counter play is a bit out of line here. Between blind application and stealth access there should not be a question as to why it frustrates people to no end when they get hit with it.

> >

> > That said i get thief is in a crappy ish spot right now but yeah its certainly not an enjoyable exp to fight against. I think aside from ranger, pistol condi thief has some of the highest condi burst ive ever been hit with in the game. It melts me insanely fast.

>

> Not sure how the projectile finisher is too powerful...most of the time blind from Dancing Dagger is what I use because it cripples as well as adding blind. Blind doesn’t stack so you really have to time it for the projectile finisher % to matter.

>

> As with the counter play I mentioned...to the extent that this build isn’t in stealth it is hugely vulnerable. So as much as 80% stealth uptime is concerned that’s a “either the thief seems impossible to kill or the thief just dies” situation to me.

>

> I’d agree the burst on landing everything boosted with venoms is a lot...but that might be more about whether spider venom makes sense when it basically adds 9k poison damage without even needing to share it to another ally or summon. It’s not P/D so much as the utility in combo.

the projectile finisher thing is more or less just something that was likely missed back when anet reworked projectile finishers on skills that can be used frequently down to 20% from 100%. Its minimal but its kind of something imo that should be looked at just as a side note.

Stealth in this game is a host mess but thief in itself is in a host mess situation. If anet makes it able to sustain without stealth that wont stop people from using it which would lead to other issues. IF anet gives them more damage on their power weapons people will come out again and make sure to let anet know just how obnoxious the spam is due to the nature of how the profession currently works being able to use most of its weapon skills repeatedly in some cases with no cd between them. Its overall a iffy situation.

The main thing that needs to be nerfed in the build is the pistol stealth attack.

By no means should all 5 shots be 100% chance of projectile finishers making it a rapid blind applicator which pretty much heavily limits any counter pressure as the smoke field the used for stealth is usually still in play when they unload the attack on you.

No other rapid fire skills in the game have 100% projectile finisher chance anymore im not sure why it still exist on thief pistol stealth attack (its likely because anet missed it) way back when the redid the projectile finisher combo system.

The other mild issue as why people find the build super frustrating to fight is because like any stealth build in this game stealth makes up 80% of the fight time which leaves minimal counter pressure. Condis are also the safer options right now with strike damage being reduced. Basically if you dont have high burst condi cleanse, and a reveal on the ready your odds of having a fair chance to win the build match up is very minimal imo especially if you are built offensive.

The way stealth works in this game i consider some one who stealth's for 80% of the time it takes for one of the two players to die is basically equal to not having a target to fight which is even worse if you are locked to melee combat.

Thief players might not agree but people are right the counter play is a bit out of line here. Between blind application and stealth access there should not be a question as to why it frustrates people to no end when they get hit with it.

That said i get thief is in a crappy ish spot right now but yeah its certainly not an enjoyable exp to fight against. I think aside from ranger, pistol condi thief has some of the highest condi burst ive ever been hit with in the game. It melts me insanely fast.

They certainly could do a few things with it

To name a few

**1 Play with Frost aura as reaper has a method to get this naturally which could make it a fun tempting trait specifically for utility.**

Deathly Chill

Gain frost Aura on entering shroud,

Frost aura's effects are improved and last longer.

Frost aura duration +25% 4 to 5 seconds

Damage reduction increased from 10% to 12%

Chill foes when struck from 2s to 3s

**2 Make it enhance the reaper shroud skills.**

Deathly Chill

Inflicting chill causes bleeding 1 stack.

Reaper skill 1 throws a short projectile slash increasing its range. (similar to the option for the holo auto that throws the disk on auto attacks) The projectile inflicts a 0.5s chill

Reaper skill 2 now emits an ice nova on impact instead of blind.

Reaper skill 5 leaves a longer ice field

**Other ideas**

Deathly chill

Inflicting chill causes bleeding 1 stack.

Swapping weapons Grants the Cold Dirt effect. Entering shroud always grants the effect.

Cold Dirt, Chill and slow nearby foes

The ground around the player becomes frozen for 3s and follows their movements pulsing once per second applying 1s of chill and 1s of slow per pulse it (this deals no strike damage)

Deathly Chill

Inflicting chill causes bleeding (1 stack) and removes a boon.

Foes with no boons are slowed for 1s

Deathly Chill

Striking a chilled foe causes them to take an additional strike after a delay

Strike interval 1 hit every 1s after a 0.5s delay.

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > imo

> >

> > **Death Shroud: Increased the life force lost per second from 3% to 4% in PvP only.**

> > This change was kind of misplaced and i would consider it overkill in the same patch which also reduces a Life force generation tool. My main issue with this is that core now cost almost as much as reaper and reaper is considerably less effective in power and condi dps. Reaper still cost more but really does not feel like its doing more than core its also harder to sustain due to having less freedom to take more LF generating traits. It also has fewer damage skills than core has now.

> >

> > **Ritual of Life: Reduced the revive pulse from 4% to 1% in PvP and WvW.**

> > I can understand this change it was not really a nerf just to nerf it was more so a trait they missed when they nerfed other rez traits down to 1%. While i do think 1% is insanely low they need to reexamine down state health and standard press f to heal all together.

> >

> > **Fear of Death: Reduced life force gained from 15% to 7% in PvP only.**

> > Again the main thing i dislike here is that it came in the same patch that increased base shroud cost. This change should have been done before some of the other changes and at this point it seems like over nerfing. The trait already had a icd on it too.

> >

> > **Unholy Sanctuary: Increased cooldown from 30 seconds to 120 seconds in PvP only.**

> > I have nothing against this really its understandable based on other "Save me" traits.

> >

> > Generally my issue is that they continue to reduce life force generating traits and utilities without increasing life force generation on weapon skills which can simply be dodged to deny the necro's life force much like how other professions have skills you often want to dodge to stop them from getting an advantage.

> >

> > I doubt this will be the last of the nerfs to necromancer either which is the sad part.

>

> ^^^

> Agree with all of this and thinks Arenanet probably does, too.

>

> Part of the point of splits is recognizing there is no better solution than to hammer down and grind off bits until PvP is roughly balanced. If the end result has marred and ugly sides but sort of works, it's good enough.

>

> Keep in mind the gold standard for PvP are the activities like Keg Brawl where there _are_ no professions. It still surprises me Arenanet does not pull activities directly under PvP and give them reward tracks. Look at all the activities and races there are. All are PvP and/or PvClock and no one complains about balance. I do not think it is an accident there are so many competitions not strictly under PvP.

>

You bring up a good point about other competitive activities. Even the charr event in Grothmar where you pick a legion car and try to blow up other players has never once made me frustrated its one of the most fun things I've done along with some of the races which technically are some what competitive.

Perhaps part of the issue with SPvp is also the game modes that anet has tied themselves to balance around. For a long time ive wanted things like death match and free for all or something similar like Elder scrolls online crazy king (where the capture points de-spawn and spawn around randomly), and chaos ball (holding a flag that deals more damage to the holder and friendly players around the longer they hold it while collecting points) pvp modes would be pretty neat too.

Then there is the issue of the players themselves. Some professions do give mechanics that endorse god complex or ego boosting which leads too toxic behavior. A lot of the events you called out dont have tools or mechanics to grant or endorse those things.

> @"Infusion.7149" said:

> Reaper has life force generation on Greatsword though.

In pvp those skills are considerably harder to land on other players especially if you dont want to just be out right hard punished for playing without any caution (you wont get the auto chain on any one who is not a downed body) the only other skills are the 3 and 5 and the 3 can be strong or poor depending on the situation but the 5 is slow and clunky. Still If we are going to nerf passive life force generating traits then increase the amounts on key skills people already know they "should" be dodging. Make life force generation more active and less passive how ever having low active gains combined with low passive gains will lead to issues if they continue to nerf the traits.

I would say right now necro in general is riding a line having rough life force generation specifically in spvp where people are not falling over dead in large numbers or you are not hidden behind the safety of dozens of other players like you find in wvw.

Reaper in spvp is exceptionally hard to maintain i consider core power more effective personally cause its easier to gain life force through more trait options and its damage can be on par with reapers, unlike reaper its not limited to melee range to be effective and even on a pure power setup it still has more damage skills on its shroud bar than reaper has. At this point they should consider re working the trade off of reaper costing more for what was suppose to be "more damage" because the damage increase is honestly in most cases not noticeable anymore between the things i said above. Even now more people still want reaper damage lowered because "its too much."

These are just my idle thoughts though dont take them too seriously.

imo

**Death Shroud: Increased the life force lost per second from 3% to 4% in PvP only.**

This change was kind of misplaced and i would consider it overkill in the same patch which also reduces a Life force generation tool. My main issue with this is that core now cost almost as much as reaper and reaper is considerably less effective in power and condi dps. Reaper still cost more but really does not feel like its doing more than core its also harder to sustain due to having less freedom to take more LF generating traits. It also has fewer damage skills than core has now.

**Ritual of Life: Reduced the revive pulse from 4% to 1% in PvP and WvW.**

I can understand this change it was not really a nerf just to nerf it was more so a trait they missed when they nerfed other rez traits down to 1%. While i do think 1% is insanely low they need to reexamine down state health and standard press f to heal all together.

**Fear of Death: Reduced life force gained from 15% to 7% in PvP only.**

Again the main thing i dislike here is that it came in the same patch that increased base shroud cost. This change should have been done before some of the other changes and at this point it seems like over nerfing. The trait already had a icd on it too.

**Unholy Sanctuary: Increased cooldown from 30 seconds to 120 seconds in PvP only.**

I have nothing against this really its understandable based on other "Save me" traits.

Generally my issue is that they continue to reduce life force generating traits and utilities without increasing life force generation on weapon skills which can simply be dodged to deny the necro's life force much like how other professions have skills you often want to dodge to stop them from getting an advantage.

I doubt this will be the last of the nerfs to necromancer either which is the sad part.

These nerfs are kind of silly

I was surprised to see that the rangers deer will still be hitting for roughly 4-5k with a 2s daze when thats not even a commanded attack.

Im also surprised to see that birds were not touched

I am also surprised to see that dragon hunters were not touched

I am also surprised to see that revs were not touched

Im very surprised to see the cost of core shroud increase even by 1% while a life force generating tool was nerfed at the same time.

For those saying that reaper deals too much damage its fact that core as of right now or even in the previous balance did more damage than reaper for a few reasons.

- Its skills were harder to kite and have more range.

- core has 4 damaging skills on its bar while reaper in its current condition only really has 3 skills that do damage on its bar

Reaper imo was already border lining on the ropes of insanity because of this. The draw back was suppose to be more cost for more damage yet I can take a power core build that does more damage than reaper does and do it from ranged which means it cant be kited as easily with generally better offensive and defensive utility in my kit.

So now core cost has gotten closer to reaper cost and will likely still do more damage with better utility whats the point of reaper even having the higher cost in its current state. Yes reaper has a single grand master that offers 300 more ferocity in shroud only but even with that my average soul spirals were rounding out to about 5-7k where as core shroud life transfer can do the same amount of damage from a farther distance while providing me life force return in the process.

The first 2 attacks of reaper shroud hit 1k or less while the 3rd attack gives a nice meaty 3k-4k on crit where as life blast can just pop some one for 3k (or more) at ranged

With reapers stability mostly nerfed to a very minimal 3s your odds of being stunned are practically the same (in most situations) as if you dont have it on core so thats not even worth the benefit. Running 3 core lines also offers more flexibility and safety for build experimentation with more damage or sustain where as reaper is suppose to zone you into that heavy cleave damage which it no longer has.

My issue here is that things were done totally backwards core became more risky to take despite it still having better general damage, flexibility, and utility than reaper now while reapers cost is still higher without having the meat behind its attacks "when it can get in close."

The death magic nerf was justified (no complaints on that)

There was even a point where i would have considered a fear of death nerf justified but that was vanquished from my mind when other nerf to life force sustain came first. Now i think this is just overkill.

Expect to see lots of blood minion masters going forward cause thats one of the bigger complaints that was not touched along with those other things like ranger pets, dragon hunters, rev spirit aoe's, etc.

Anet even removed amulets with higher defensive stats and left in obnoxious runes like mad king and trapper rune that are out right busted on some professions

Trapper rune on condi ranger and dragon hunters

Mad king rune on Kalla Revs, and soulbeast on hit elite effects.

I had said that the nerfing patches were going in a decent direction but this one was so far off the mark its insane.

i dont agree i think some nerfs will solve some of the main problems.

They have already said that this initial nerf patch was mainly to get everything on a quick standard and that things will be evaluated more going forward. Meaning that somethings will be buffed on a case by case and some more things will still be nerfed on a case by case. base healing on pressing f on a downed player is a prime example where more nerfs are needed. Some cc skills getting their damage back if they have big tells or getting the cc removed entirely for big raw damage instead is a prime example where more buffs are needed

One cannot simply say more nerfs wont solve anything because in many cases it actually makes more sense to nerf.

Your examples of scourge, chorno, etc require reworks and thats more work than making small nerfs. Simply buffing those things is also not a solution because we already know what those professions were strong and it was unhealthy.

The nerfs actually brought renegade into a spot where its doing really well so imo some times nerfs do solve problems.

Mirage is kind of a rough one because it in all honestly needed a nerf that said.... im sure there were better ways to handle it that said players are still making it work unlike things like scourge and chrono so it cant be as bad as what many people are making it out to be. Again i still dont think the nerfs were applied in the best way but it cant go back to what it was before for obvious reasons much like scourge cant go back to how it was for obvious reasons.

Overcharge shot imo is not that big of a deal it needs the cast time but the self knock back should prob be removed,

Rev staff 5 needs the cast time there is no point to argue this instant cc with no tell/ cast time is not coming back,

Pulmonary Impact is imo still decent cause ive seen it pop for decent chunks of damage even without critting,

Hammer warrior might need some reworks but i still dont think most of the cc in that weapon kit should get heavy damage back.

Late edit: I will be the first to tell you scourge is not in a healthy place

Its just as busted mechanically as chrono is.