ZDragon.3046

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Dagger.2035" said:

> > I don’t think staff needs a complete rework since it is a good utility weapon and gets a ton of use in WvW. You can recharge your shroud from a safe range, apply hard/soft cc, and transfer conditions. The only skill which may need some help is the slow moving auto attack.

>

> Especially for wvw a rework would be good to lessen the aoe spam/denial

> Sure it's a nice weapon for tagging and bad players will stay on staff the whole time. But that's not how wvw should be played.

> Placing all those marks, creating gigantic red floors of death. In order to remove this, rework staff.

>

> If you don't think, that this is a problem in wvw. Leave it as it is

keep in mind this is only wvw you are talking about in other modes with other play styles staff is very lackluster. In most cases its used because you either dont have anything better to use cause you are not playing reaper or you are a condi build and can make more use of the 2 and 3 and maybe 5 skills.

In pvp your life force wont constantly be topped off by constant deaths and you wont be able to just mindlessly throw out marks cause you need to be more tactical with them and forget trying to auto for LF when necro is always the main focus first in a team fight.

in pve you dont really need a staff if playing reaper and if you play other builds like core or scourge its more of the same above either you dont have anything better to use as your 2nd weapon or you can make minor use of the 2-3 condition marks.

Overall staff is not that great and while a total rework is not needed it could certainly use a nice update.

Overall im kinda upset that you need to take a trait to even make this weapon semi functional as a true utility weapon and that not a single mark generates life force on its own.

I think what really needs to happen is for one either make the auto a auto chain with more effectiveness or just speed up the projectile in general.

The life force generation portion of **soul marks** gets moved to baseline

The new version of **soul marks** still makes marks unblockable and enhances staff marks as listed below

Skill 2 steals health on successful hits and inflicts torment in addition to bleed

Skill 3 pulses 2 times on successful trigger applying chill and poison

Skill 4 gains a 2nd charge but has a 4s minimum delay between each use

Skill 5 gains a 2nd charge but has a 4s minimum delay between each use

My issue with staff right now is that its outdated and its practically not even a good utility weapon without the trait which makes it semi useful only after the fact along with the fact that outside of the auto there is no natural life force generation in its kit without the trait.

So you have to take a trait to basically make it a utility weapon which is kind of bs.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> I won't answer to everything, because I have different opinion and I don't think we will reach a middle point but:

Understandable

> No, the whole boon corrupt thing is not part of the necromancer defensive kit but part of it's "support" kit. ANet stuck to an extremly strict "design thematic" for the necromancer and the defensive philosophy of this strict design is that the necromancer's mitigate damage with health point. They don't avoid, they don't block, they take the hits the hard way and their F skill is their main source of health point to soak those damages.

Seems like its more of a balance tool right now. Originally i felt like it was a unique feature to help bring down foes who started to over power you back down to your level or even lower than your level but now you rip boons off people and they immidately replace them while clearing the condis. Also alot of areas in the game still cant make use of them you have pointed this out several times in the past already. Im hoping the split in pve allows them to rework how boon corrupts work in pve to trigger bonus effects or new effects on boonless foes or something so that skills with boon corrupts forced onto them are not just having that weighted aspect of them wasted.

> The point is that ANet won't give "modern" defensive weapon skill and utility to the necromancer because the F skill is the main source of health point to soak damage. Their bottom line is that they can fit some way to recover health points on your weapon and utility skills through life siphon.

I would be ok with this design being stuck this way if it was completed and there was a bit more QoL along with it for example not just being a ping pong ball to CC if you are going to take the hits. Having a bit more stability or things like retaliation in general would have done magical wonders for a concept like this but they dont provide these things in generous amounts to support the idea of it.

Because they dont provide these things the necromancer can soak hits but the idea of using things like life steal and siphons to recover portions of you health also depends on your ability to attack. If you are a ping pong ball you cant attack. IF you are under too much pressure you cant attack. Im not sure its bad design completely its just incomplete design ontop of as you said bad design choices/balance over time.

> As a player, If I had to reinvent the necromancer, I'd mostly change the main mechanism to not be the whole of the necromancer's defense but a nice defensive bonus when traited.

Honestly this is what i was hoping for with the deathmagic rework but that didnt happen D:

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"AgentMoore.9453" said:

> > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > Given it doesn't really fit the setting, a corrupted Wendigo type creature or a corrupted Spirit of the Wild have both been mooted as possibilities.

> >

> > Wendigos [are a thing](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Berserking_Wendigo "are a thing") in the Guild Wars, though they're classified as a type of minotaur and are said to be corrupted humans twisted into evil spirits. [An NPC in GW2](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Neiska "An NPC in GW2") also makes mention of wendigos while telling a joke, but given that we haven't seen any in the game and that she's casually joking about it, it'd be a good guess that between GW1 and GW2, wendigos stopped showing up as frequently (or may even be considered extinct like gargoyles).

> >

> > If I had to guess, I'd say the Boneskinner is some type of champion belonging to Jormag, maybe made from a Norn shaman twisted into an antlerbeast for the glory of aesthetic evil.

> >

>

> They were a thing yes, albeit more the use of the name. The GW2 writers have clearly taken more direct inspiration from the creature - or at least the popularised version - and renamed it to avoid confusion with the original Minotaur wendigo.

>

> The idea of it being a corruption of someone - like a shaman who has turned to cannibalism or evil - is an intriguing twist and even more so if it is a separate entity to Jormag

oh thanks for the info here ;)

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> Given it doesn't really fit the setting, a corrupted Wendigo type creature or a corrupted Spirit of the Wild have both been mooted as possibilities. I imagine Jormag might still have some remnants of Zhaitans magic after all

I mean it kind of does to me it also reminds me slightly of the SCP creatures (the ones that throw other peoples voices) just with more boons and magical powers lol.

My first thought was a corrupted spirit of the wild (hare) but i mean thats probably unlikely after i looked up the spirit hare on the wiki.

I honestly hope its not tied to jormag at all it would make it much more interesting as a separate obstacle on the path to jormag. It has no ice on it or blue effects and i dont exactly get the plant vibe from it either. Im hoping its possibly something left over purely of Zhaitan in itself. It would be nice to get a bit more untold Zhaitan mistery considering we have not really revisited much other than some (magic) related to this dragon since the end of the core game's story.

Think about it the area has been pretty inhabitable for a long time its not to say that this couldn't bee something that managed to survive all on its own.

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> I'd rather they give us for a change something entirely new and original. We've been revisiting old GW1 zones and lore for a long time now and it appears that Icebrood Saga will continue this trend. Tyria is enormous and full of opportunities, why not explore entirely new places and civilizations instead of bringing back places that existed in GW1

Ive never thought about this but you are correct.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> >

> >

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > > > > > > when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If it was baseline and only made your clones shimmer and avoid damage would it be op in general??? Nope i dont think so not in any game mode.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What IH makes it so frustrating and problematic is the fact that IH proc's ambush attacks on clones that are up regardless of the status of the caster even if they are stunned or casting some other skill like charging a mantra etc. Also the fact that staff clones did full damage. There is no reason for people to actively want to use shatter skills (which are also not unique to mirage) because staff clones do more dps while being much more of an annoyance if you leave them up. This stacked on top of having high evasion time and a very very effective defensive play style just puts all the wrong things together for people to start pointing fingers for change.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think we all know having high evasive time while outputting damage is a hot topic right now not just only for mirage but for classes like daredevil and weaver as well.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > the sad cmirage playstyle, 3clone f2 shatter in melee range applies 4 stacks of confusion, LOL.

> > > > > 1-2 clone auto are worth more, the only time cmirage actually shatters is when they are out of combat to have boons during combat, or after they used other shatter ( f3 for must daze, or f4 ) again, to get boons. becouse lets not kid ourselfs, f1 and f2 deals trash dmg on cmes.

> > > >

> > > > Perhaps this would not be the case if Mirage actually had different shatters apart from core mesmer shatters which is something ive been saying should happen for a while now. But people really really dont want to lose distortion. Ideally 1 to shatter and respawn all current clones onto a specific target with a short cd would be ideal for sure.

> > > >

> > > > As far as trash damage im not sure what you consider good damage vs trash damage. IF a single clone ran at me and shattered on me for 7k or something i would quit pvp because thats ridiculous. Maybe the shatters are not trash damage but are only seen as such when you compare them to full damage ambush staff attacks from you and all your clones?

> > >

> > > I consider using 3 clones, for a shatter at melee range. to deal 2k dmg a waste. Most classes deal this much with basic auto.

> > > Im not asking for tactical nukes on condi shatter, but the fact reamins that F1 deals more damage then F2 for CONDI. F2 was supposed to be condi shatter, while f1 is power shatter.

> > > Shatter damage is fine on power becouse it scales, condi has 1 stack of confusion and thats it, lel.

> >

> > But cant you spec to have torment on shatter which does scale with your condi damage. So it goes from you having a single shatter to use to having 3-4 shatters you can use which will inflict torment on successful hit

> >

> > > Oh and every mirage fears "different" shatters, becouse its gonna end up in a bin alongside chrono.

> > I mean Chronos's shatters themselves are not bad. If anything they are a bit better if your foe is slowed when they hit. The only real issue is not being able to instantly use f1-f3 even with 0 clones That was one of the biggest complaint factors for chrono as to why it was dead that i read after that change happened.

> >

> >

>

> The way I look at shatter for condi mes is similar to steal.

> you devote several traitlines/trait to make them good.

> the difference is that steal is VERY kitten GOOD while traited to the limit.

Well you have to remember steal is a single skill 2 if you account for the stolen item. Vs shatters which are 4 different skills.

I think if you invest in both then both will be very good the difference is that mesmer shatter investment is scattered across different traitlines depending on what you are building into where as theif has it all mostly in 1 line (Which is probably because its just 1 skill).

Overall its not much different imo. All classes generally have to over invest in their personal f skill mechanic to make them decent.

Ranger need beast mastery

Necros often need a wide range of traits from several traitlines

Warriors need traits that enhance their burst or reward them after landing their burst attacks

etc

> shatter is just ok, nobody gonna go illusions + full traitlines + dueling blind+confusion traits, only to land their bick kitten burst f2 with all clones and tickle for 6k dmg.

> thats the reality of the situation, condi shatters are kitten useless without traits.

Everyone elses f skill are pretty useless without traits as well the point of locking you in to a fixed set of traits is so that you cant have everything at once. In some instances things can be improved for QoL but generally yeah you shouldnt get everything even steal requires you to invest in a few different lines to totally max out its potential.

>

> Add bleed to f1, torment to f2 and call it a day.

> If 3clone shatter on power mesmer dunks for 5-8k dmg then make similar numbers with condi. same with f2, why on earth does power mesmer deal more dmg with f2 then kitten condi mes. YIKES.

Well remember condition damage is not suppose to be effective as power damage in terms to damage over x amount of time even if condi shatters got buffed and you landed a perfect shatter burst you shouldn't see 5-8k damage being done quickly the time it would take a power build to erase the same amount of hp but over quite a bit of time. This is another problem with condition damage right now on some professions its ramping too fast and hitting like power damage and because the builds are condition and built to do damage over time they have way more sustain to support the idea that they need more time to deal their damage and have the tools make that happen.

But its an issue when you have condition damage melting people just as fast as power damage does while still providing plentiful sustain as if they needed much more time and are not doing damage equal to what power damage does.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"zoopop.5630" said:

> > > Hope Dps FireBrand gets looked into because at the moment stacking 1 full support fb and 1 dps firebrand is the most brain dead comp you can face.

> >

> > They do need to be looked into yes. But mostly just the firebrand line and its mantras nothing more. They really dont need to go messing with core guardian too much as it is one of the best if not the best balanced core profession in the game.

> >

> > I would always recommend guardian to a F2P player just because of this fact.

> > ITs good at doing what you invest into while having clear cut weaknesses.

> >

> > Firebrand is just way too over tuned and needs a bit more risk with its tomes without losing the power of the tomes maybe look at cutting mantra charges down by 1 in pvp and wvw. Would be where i suggest things start

>

> I laughed when I actually looked at what those thomes do, its preety much entire 3 new weapon sets for FB.

> there is engi peasant that runs with 1, Feelsbadbeingcoreengi.

> there is the rest of population with 2, and there is kitten everyonebrand with 5. :D

>

The f1 tome is almost perfectly ok as they have very limited defense potential when using it. The best time to cc/attack firebrand is when they use tome of justice because they either have to end the tome or over commit to the tome while taking damage. There is a really limited amount of safety they can hold themselves to while using that tome.

The f2 and f3 tomes almost make them darn near immune to offensive pressure depending on the situation and these are the tomes i think need to really be looked into

Maybe upping the cool-downs on the more more potent skills so they cant easily be used multiple times in a single tome activation(unless you hold onto it for an extended period of time) while keeping the point system valid for the lesser skills like the first 2 or 3 to be used rapidly would help. Overall though im sure firebrand will get looked into probably not before the 19th but surely soon after.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > > > > when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.

> > > >

> > > > If it was baseline and only made your clones shimmer and avoid damage would it be op in general??? Nope i dont think so not in any game mode.

> > > >

> > > > What IH makes it so frustrating and problematic is the fact that IH proc's ambush attacks on clones that are up regardless of the status of the caster even if they are stunned or casting some other skill like charging a mantra etc. Also the fact that staff clones did full damage. There is no reason for people to actively want to use shatter skills (which are also not unique to mirage) because staff clones do more dps while being much more of an annoyance if you leave them up. This stacked on top of having high evasion time and a very very effective defensive play style just puts all the wrong things together for people to start pointing fingers for change.

> > > >

> > > > I think we all know having high evasive time while outputting damage is a hot topic right now not just only for mirage but for classes like daredevil and weaver as well.

> > > >

> > >

> > > the sad cmirage playstyle, 3clone f2 shatter in melee range applies 4 stacks of confusion, LOL.

> > > 1-2 clone auto are worth more, the only time cmirage actually shatters is when they are out of combat to have boons during combat, or after they used other shatter ( f3 for must daze, or f4 ) again, to get boons. becouse lets not kid ourselfs, f1 and f2 deals trash dmg on cmes.

> >

> > Perhaps this would not be the case if Mirage actually had different shatters apart from core mesmer shatters which is something ive been saying should happen for a while now. But people really really dont want to lose distortion. Ideally 1 to shatter and respawn all current clones onto a specific target with a short cd would be ideal for sure.

> >

> > As far as trash damage im not sure what you consider good damage vs trash damage. IF a single clone ran at me and shattered on me for 7k or something i would quit pvp because thats ridiculous. Maybe the shatters are not trash damage but are only seen as such when you compare them to full damage ambush staff attacks from you and all your clones?

>

> I consider using 3 clones, for a shatter at melee range. to deal 2k dmg a waste. Most classes deal this much with basic auto.

> Im not asking for tactical nukes on condi shatter, but the fact reamins that F1 deals more damage then F2 for CONDI. F2 was supposed to be condi shatter, while f1 is power shatter.

> Shatter damage is fine on power becouse it scales, condi has 1 stack of confusion and thats it, lel.

But cant you spec to have torment on shatter which does scale with your condi damage. So it goes from you having a single shatter to use to having 3-4 shatters you can use which will inflict torment on successful hit

> Oh and every mirage fears "different" shatters, becouse its gonna end up in a bin alongside chrono.

I mean Chronos's shatters themselves are not bad. If anything they are a bit better if your foe is slowed when they hit. The only real issue is not being able to instantly use f1-f3 even with 0 clones That was one of the biggest complaint factors for chrono as to why it was dead that i read after that change happened.

> @"zoopop.5630" said:

> Hope Dps FireBrand gets looked into because at the moment stacking 1 full support fb and 1 dps firebrand is the most brain dead comp you can face.

They do need to be looked into yes. But mostly just the firebrand line and its mantras nothing more. They really dont need to go messing with core guardian too much as it is one of the best if not the best balanced core profession in the game.

I would always recommend guardian to a F2P player just because of this fact.

ITs good at doing what you invest into while having clear cut weaknesses.

Firebrand is just way too over tuned and needs a bit more risk with its tomes without losing the power of the tomes maybe look at cutting mantra charges down by 1 in pvp and wvw. Would be where i suggest things start

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > I dont think the issue is it not having tells the issues is combined with all the other cc in warriors kit there is physically no way possible to avoid it all if chained together in a short enough time frame.

> > > >

> > > > With that argument, shouldn't Mesmer lose a lot of its Daze?

> > > > Mesmers stunlock me way more often than Warriors.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Meta warrior has more hard stuns then meta mesmer has dazes, And I dont think I have to explain the difference between how good a daze is and how good stun is, right?

> >

> > Effectively they are both cc's the difference between daze and stun is minimal both are effective the real difference is is that warriors stuns do sizable damage and mesmers dazes do not (directly)

> >

> > If mesmers Dazes did do heavy damage like that they wouldn't be acceptable either.

> >

> > > thats on top of warriors stuns removing boons.

> > This bit is kind of irrelevant not every warrior has this only spellbreakers.

> >

>

> Sorry but a stunt, knockdown and float (and in a less impactfull way : knockback, launch and pull) are way stronger than a daze because you can't evade the next burst/attack without breakstunt. (The day they remove the stunt on F3 in domi on power mesmer, you will have 50% less chance to burst someone for example.)

> The different ins't minimal.

Depends on the cc imo. Some of them are pretty minimal.

Knockback and pull for example are not that strong if you ask me. Launch is pretty strong because its basically knockback followed by knockdown. Yes you cant evade the next burst attack... (unless you are a mirage hue hue) but i mean daze is still pretty strong even more so if its a longer daze duration.

>

> ps : About CI, It existed for years, was used during 4 months and was removed....

Well first of all incorrect

Chrono's used CI for their one shot builds for a long time and i thought the trait was problematic back then but a 1 shot mesmer or chrono at the time didnt hold as much pressure or defensive of a play style as Mirage. IT was also power based and required at least some risk on the chrono's part to get the most effective damage.

Mirage using CI just grew way too quickly to a point that it was just BS in general no one liked being immobilized for 6-12 seconds while being dazed and having a crap ton of cover condi's to prevent the removal of that immobilize. CI was already strong in general using it with Mirage was just obnoxious.

The idea of hitting someone with a daze that will also immobilize them is generally not good for the game. Immobilize is in a way stronger condition than daze at times as it disables a persons ability to dodge... unless you are a mirage of course..

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> > > when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.

> >

> > If it was baseline and only made your clones shimmer and avoid damage would it be op in general??? Nope i dont think so not in any game mode.

> >

> > What IH makes it so frustrating and problematic is the fact that IH proc's ambush attacks on clones that are up regardless of the status of the caster even if they are stunned or casting some other skill like charging a mantra etc. Also the fact that staff clones did full damage. There is no reason for people to actively want to use shatter skills (which are also not unique to mirage) because staff clones do more dps while being much more of an annoyance if you leave them up. This stacked on top of having high evasion time and a very very effective defensive play style just puts all the wrong things together for people to start pointing fingers for change.

> >

> > I think we all know having high evasive time while outputting damage is a hot topic right now not just only for mirage but for classes like daredevil and weaver as well.

> >

>

> the sad cmirage playstyle, 3clone f2 shatter in melee range applies 4 stacks of confusion, LOL.

> 1-2 clone auto are worth more, the only time cmirage actually shatters is when they are out of combat to have boons during combat, or after they used other shatter ( f3 for must daze, or f4 ) again, to get boons. becouse lets not kid ourselfs, f1 and f2 deals trash dmg on cmes.

Perhaps this would not be the case if Mirage actually had different shatters apart from core mesmer shatters which is something ive been saying should happen for a while now. But people really really dont want to lose distortion. Ideally 1 to shatter and respawn all current clones onto a specific target with a short cd would be ideal for sure.

As far as trash damage im not sure what you consider good damage vs trash damage. IF a single clone ran at me and shattered on me for 7k or something i would quit pvp because thats ridiculous. Maybe the shatters are not trash damage but are only seen as such when you compare them to full damage ambush staff attacks from you and all your clones?

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> when POF launched, i advocated for infinite horizon to go baseline. It seems like it should be baseline. But after 2+ years with it, I still want it baseline for PvE. But I do not want it baseline for pvp. Where to draw the line? Even my sword spec that i swear is not OPed, would be OPed if it were baseline. Idk if Anet wants to drastically skill split for pve and pvp/wvw. But having infinite horizon be baseline in PvE would drastically improve all builds of mirage in pve. And replacing the traits with something else once in competitive modes.

If it was baseline and only made your clones shimmer and avoid damage would it be op in general??? Nope i dont think so not in any game mode.

What IH makes it so frustrating and problematic is the fact that IH proc's ambush attacks on clones that are up regardless of the status of the caster even if they are stunned or casting some other skill like charging a mantra etc. Also the fact that staff clones did full damage. There is no reason for people to actively want to use shatter skills (which are also not unique to mirage) because staff clones do more dps while being much more of an annoyance if you leave them up. This stacked on top of having high evasion time and a very very effective defensive play style just puts all the wrong things together for people to start pointing fingers for change.

I think we all know having high evasive time while outputting damage is a hot topic right now not just only for mirage but for classes like daredevil and weaver as well.

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > I mean people assume we will be able to ride desert region mounts in the magic boosted cold region we are going to though......

> The Christmas mount set delivers optimal protection against the cold though.

LOL good one

I mean people assume we will be able to ride desert region mounts in the magic boosted cold region we are going to though......

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Westenev.5289" said:

>

> > Personally, I think if Guildhalls were smaller, cheaper and the mechanics more refined, they could fit this niche.

> In a way, I feel that was the intent.

>

I think anet should revisit guild halls to be honest...

Im in afew smaller guilds and we do have quite a hard time getting things because of how costly everything is.

they even attempted a minor lesser version with the suns refuge thing but that kinda didn't appeal to me either.

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > ill just say this.... you cant look one way and expect others not to look the other way.

> > Just because someone is not looking the same direction as you does not mean they are completely lost on the subject.

> >

> > Some people want IH nerfed or changed and some people don't, it is what it is.

> > Mirage aint the only one to go through this situation so deal with it every other profession and elite spec deals with the same stuff.

> > No point in trying to argue the "no one knows what they are talking about" card even when in many cases they do. Other professions have played this card and still got adjustments / nerfs even if it was not in the right way... just deal with it.

> >

> > End statement.

>

> Strangely, people who want IH nerfed or changed didn't play mirage :p .

> Mean how can you understand something if you never play it.

>

Well first off you dont know who plays what and who doesnt unless they admit that they do or do not play something to you and you hope they didnt lie.

Unless you can break into their account or something you have no way of knowing this information but lets assume you are correct.

Assuming you are correct the same thing still applies to other professions

People who want stealth nerfs dont play thief

People who want plasma nerfs dont play thief and ranger

People who want fear and chill nerfs dont play necro

People who want burn nerfs dont play weaver...

do you see the pattern here.

Mirage is not a special case. Wont be the first time wont be the last.

In fact this is pretty common in most games that can be taken in any kind of competitive form even the ones that are not meant to be super competitive.

One side might say the other is not balanced purely because they play against that side and find it too advantageous to commonly play around on the flip side the side that people complain about might find something on the opposing side even thought they don't play as that side that they also consider too advantageous or unfair.

It wouldnt be balanced if only the side that played that one thing dictated what should be buffed and nerfed with that side or in this case in that profession. Yes its nice to have people who honestly care and want things to be fair but we must admit that many ideas that people think in their own heads would be fair are quite unfair and you dont see them that way till someone from outside the box points it out to you.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > ANet's choices to stick to the fondamentally flawed design of the necromancer traped it into mediocrity. I'm not saying that there is no advantage to this mediocrity but it lock the necromancer out of the possibility to be able to specialize and thus to be able to compete fairly with other profession when highly specialized builds are needed.

> >

> > But scourge does the opposite escaping the mediocrity and its currently doing worse than reaper depending on where you look......

> > This leads me to think that your statement is kind of not completely true the fact that reaper is doing better than scourge right now says other wise.

>

> I disagree with that, scourge is still mediocre and continue to follow the rule that keep the necromancer into mediocrity. It's not because it doesn't have a shroud with a 2nd health bar that shades ain't doing the same thing than shroud. It's only strong if you stack scourges. It doesn't have great damage, nor great survivability and it's support isn't really competitive. And fondamentally the shade isn't very different than the shroud, since it try to do everything at the same time and especially carry most of the defensive aspect of the scourge.

So does this mean that technically speaking the f skill mechanic is not completely to blame with what holds necromancer to such a limited standard. Because you have 2 shrouds and shades which are completely moved away from shrouds and even in this case defensive utility or weapon skills were still not provided. What could have been its place we see just boon corruption shoved onto everything.

>

> > Also what about the passive shadow nerfs to conditional defense which all forums of necromancers use before HoT and how some conditions are still not updated to meet the gameplay that is found now in 2019. The lack of top end skill potential due to having to throw more boon corruption into necromancers kit to balance boons on 8 other professions and how these tools are not useful in pve but still hinder the top end potential of the skills they are tied too.

> >

> > Its not just the shroud bar its far more than that.

>

> The difference is that because your main defensive mechanism is your special mechanism, and there is no way to get rid of this fact, the necromancer can't be allowed to leave what I call "mediocrity". Other professions can choose to have defensive skills or not (not mesmer but it seem that ANet turn a blind eye on this fact...), this allow them to effectively specialize and ANet consider that it's a fair enough trade off to allow them superior performance when they specialize.

Yet the factors of conditional defense which worked decently in the past has become weaker which is also a fact that you cant get rid of. Chill, cripple, fear are not where near as effective as they use to be.

I wouldn't say that it cant be allowed to gain defensive skills more so that anet just chooses to give it boon corruption over true defensive skills because really up till spell breaker the main tool against boons was necromancer. ITs unique feature got turned into a balance tool and splattered all over the place. If you just give it some defensive modern weapon skills and utility, which dont have to be tied to the f skills at all like almost all other professions have. They dont have to remove the current way the f skills work to do this. There are different levels of defense that a skill can provide based on effects and duration etc.

I dont think only the f skills or mechanics are totally to blame i think that yes in some ways it can hold the necromancer to a limit but necro lacks in a ton and mean a ton of other areas that anet either fails to increase to that what would be standard for the game today (death magic rework) or just ignores things (such as updating staff / main hand dagger/ other various utilities.) Then as i said just a moment ago there is the issue of boon corruption being used as a balance tool instead of a feature which takes up space for what could be defensive skills and utility.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> ANet's choices to stick to the fondamentally flawed design of the necromancer traped it into mediocrity. I'm not saying that there is no advantage to this mediocrity but it lock the necromancer out of the possibility to be able to specialize and thus to be able to compete fairly with other profession when highly specialized builds are needed.

But scourge does the opposite escaping the mediocrity and its currently doing worse than reaper depending on where you look......

This leads me to think that your statement is kind of not completely true the fact that reaper is doing better than scourge right now says other wise.

Also what about the passive shadow nerfs to conditional defense which all forums of necromancers use before HoT and how some conditions are still not updated to meet the gameplay that is found now in 2019. The lack of top end skill potential due to having to throw more boon corruption into necromancers kit to balance boons on 8 other professions and how these tools are not useful in pve but still hinder the top end potential of the skills they are tied too.

Its not just the shroud bar its far more than that.

Welcome to necromancer life

your skills damage yourself and you get less payoff than other professions who get bigger bang for less upfront buck.

We dont get traits other light armor professions have like vigor on crit etc

Necro defense is conditional which has been slowly dumbed down over time making it less and less effective and more unstable.

Weakness 50% chance it wont reduce damage at all.

Cripple and chill dont slow/reduce movement skills anymore

Too much condition removal in every build now because of other classes like mirage, and weavers which makes conditional defense harder for necro

But you know people like to blame the 2nd hp bar which is not a hp bar which is not really the only main issue. Because core necro was fairly decent before everyone else started to get way out of hand.

This sounds too complexed to get done anytime soon and i dont think it solves any of the issues. People complain about when fighting against a scourge. They just need to abandon the shade idea all together and re visit the skills with a new idea in general. The game is not ready to be able to balance a mechanic like this.

Currently shades will always be too strong and annoying or too useless / risky / ineffective for the trade off.

Fashion obviously

ill just say this.... you cant look one way and expect others not to look the other way.

Just because someone is not looking the same direction as you does not mean they are completely lost on the subject.

Some people want IH nerfed or changed and some people don't, it is what it is.

Mirage aint the only one to go through this situation so deal with it every other profession and elite spec deals with the same stuff.

No point in trying to argue the "no one knows what they are talking about" card even when in many cases they do. Other professions have played this card and still got adjustments / nerfs even if it was not in the right way... just deal with it.

End statement.

clearly blue and red

Jormag vs Primordie.

no no no no this is dumb its over complicating the class for no reason.

IF you want to punish skill spam there are better ways to do it in this case Infiltrators Strike

Just make it so that if the thief misses the strike they are locked in melee range has no return spot or make the return cost more expensive.