ZDragon.3046
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Posts posted by ZDragon.3046
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> @"Fueki.4753" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> >
> > I dont think the issue is it not having tells the issues is combined with all the other cc in warriors kit there is physically no way possible to avoid it all if chained together in a short enough time frame.
>
> With that argument, shouldn't Mesmer lose a lot of its Daze?
> Mesmers stunlock me way more often than Warriors.
The daze was never the issue with mesmer the issue was CI causing immobilize o ntop of daze's that interrupted which effectively means you are basically hard stunned but to remove it completely you needed the factor of condi clear and break stun which is not something a lot of professions have all in 1 button. The fact that it had no cooldown either. Mind you chaos storm could also daze you 4 times in a row back then getting immobilized under a double chaos storm was just ?
Keep in mind mesmer Daze's (most of them) dont do damage at all. So while they can be chained which is annoying its not the CC skills doing the damage. Granted im not a fan of their multi casting (being able to cast one skill with no cast time while using one that does have cast time) i don think mesmers should lose their daze's.
I think power lock should have a minor tell to it though, even if its just an effect on the mesmers buff bar letting you know they have x charges for x mantra loaded. As in most cases mantras are charged out of combat leaving no real tell or counter-play to them. You just get hit with them as they come out on instant cast which is kind of bs.
In short ive never had a mesmer daze itself hit me for 11k, even when getting chain cc'ed to death its a combo of several skills being cast at the same time/in row which goes into my multi cast / no tell complaint more than anything.
Warriors on the other hand once rampage is pressed either you are in a position to avoid it all or it just instantly kills you because chain cc which also has high damage at the same time. Its not a good feeling when it happens and i know why considering ive been on the receiving end of it many times.
Do i think warrior rampage should remain this way long term no i dont. But who knows those CC skills might still hit generously enough to be ok even with the heavy nerf. Talking about a class that constantly has 25 might and fury so we just have to wait and see.
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> @"Draes.5493" said:
> As a warrior main of about 18 months I gotta say I am a bit worried about the Rampage changes. Don't get me wrong, I can definitely see why people call it an OP elite skill but as was mentioned, it is so heavily telegraphed. I have no complaints about reducing the power coefficient (but to 0.01............really?????). I would have expected maybe a 30-50% reduction for a skill with such obvious and avoidable tells. Of course this is just my opinion though.
I dont think the issue is it not having tells the issues is combined with all the other cc in warriors kit there is physically no way possible to avoid it all if chained together in a short enough time frame. The fact that on top of it it does so much damage there is no reason why the bolder toss (which you dont need tobe facing your target to use) should hit for 8-11k and hard stun for 2 seconds. even with a 50% nerf thats still a 4-6k crit with a 2 second stun.
Ideally warriors general kit allows them to be pretty cc heavy as it is meaning its totally possible to bait / exhaust break stuns, dodges etc just with weapon and general utility. Once rampage is pressed its just free. I agree alot of warrior cc has big tells but tells were never the issue its nice to think that every profession can always dodge each of those heavy dps cc skills but in alot of cases thats not optional so even if you see one or two skills coming it does not mean you can avoid the whole chain.
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> @"Radagascar.6231" said:
> Fundamental Changes:
>
> **Condition Damage:**
> Someone touched on it already in this thread, and I'd like to highlight it again. DoT effects should not have the same level of burst as power dmg. It is completely asinine that any of the condition specs can apply 10+ conditions in a miniscule amount of time and that those conditions put a comparative amount of offensive pressure as say a power burst rotation. There should be SOME distinction between the amount of damage done by a condition "rotation" and a power rotation.
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS SOOOOO MUCH THIS. It does not help that alot of professions who have this kind of power have more sustain that power builds do as well.
>
> **Condition Cleanse:**
> Having said what I did about condition damage is necessarily tied into condition cleanse. If condition damage is consequently nerfed as a result of fundamental balance changes, cleanse should then also be nerfed. The point is not to remove condition specs from the game entirely - it should be to define them differently than a power spec. Condition cleanse being as strong as it is (for some classes at least) will likely push out condition damage specs from any semblance of being meta if they, too, are not nerfed relative to condition damage.
I agree
>
> **Perma-Anything:**
> Having the ability to max out on a boon, a stealth, etc. is not something that is healthy for the game. It promotes extreme builds that focus on one thing, and that one thing pushes it over the edge because 25 stacks of might isn't something that the game is designed around in terms of raw damage output vs. raw health points and healing output. Either remove the ability to maintain perma-anything or make it so incredibly difficult that it will hamstring the rest of the build to a point of relative irrelevance.
The idea of this is nice but alot of the classes that can currently maintain things like 25 might are pretty limited on boon application as far as number of boons generated. Just note you cant only cull classes good at holding 25 might you have to cull everything classes that can currently hold 25 might should probably still be able to achieve much higher might count on average than others who cant. At the same time others have to lose their protection, vigor, swiftness, regen etc which keeps them alive.
>
> Class Changes:
>
> **Mesmer:**
> In conjunction with the condition damage change, the passive damage that mirages can pump out as a result of their clones is wildly overtuned - they already have an inherent advantage of having multiple copies of themselves that a person has to manage. It should not be the case that those copies are also putting an unnecessary amount of offensive pressure on the opponent.
I mean yea...
>
> **Guardian:**
> Firebrand pushes SO many specs out of the meta that it is arguably one of the most obnoxious elite specializations in the game currently. A lot of people complain about condi thieves and mirages or holos, but the biggest culprit of meta imbalance is Firebrand. It is by far the spec that can single-handedly carry a game with how generally good it is. It should be a Jack of all trades, master of none. Instead, it is a master of literally everything aside from mobility. That is the down-fall, it is slow. That should NOT be a viable reason for something be wildly overtuned in almost all other aspects of its gameplay. Nerf. Firebrand. Kill. It. With. Fire.
Firebrand only is in need of tweaks core guardian lines and skills are totally fine.
>
> **Necro:**
> Fine. Maybe nerf Reaper damage. The spec is really easy to play and do a lot of damage with, which is a problem. It isn't the worst thing in the world of course; however, it is gaining popularity simply due to how simple it is to pilot and still dish out an incomparable amount of damage.
Kind of inaccurate statement Reaper is gaining popularity not because its damage is high or that its "subjectively" easy to paly. Its because scourge is currently in shambles and core necromancer is beyond subpar due to being outdated in a lot of ways. Reaper is currently the most viable option in pvp (where having more offensive potential is the best defense) for the necromancer profession in general. Core can work but its more or less no more or any less effective its not "in a good place" with the current meta either as many people like to say, should everything else get nerfed down it might be in a "good place" but currently this is not the case. Reaper just being used more because scourge is currently not viable due to this risk/trade off of using it heavily out weighting the reward and potential it has in spvp.
We also have to remember that reaper has walk to into danger to deal its damage which is still sub par to a lot of other professions and it has no **"modern"** kit tools to get out like others do. Its based on conditional defense in a meta where condi clear is heavily essential and a part of most players builds while allowing them to keep strong offensive pressure. Necromancer is also known for being focused over all other professions in the game partly because they can be destructive in a team fight but also because they have no easy way outs when focused. The term "really easy" is debatable. Solo play not so easy. Playing with 2 or 3 friends to watch your back 24/7 yeah kinda easy.
>
> **Engineer:**
> Holo. Smith. Goodness gracious. If Firebrand is the most obnoxious elite specialization to play against, then holosmith is the second. And, I am sure there are arguments to be made that could flip those in a tier list. Holosmith has the same problem of being designed as a jack of all trades, master of none but operating as a master of all. It is too overtuned in almost all aspects of its gameplay, and it needs to be brought down to a reasonable power level. Focus on one or two things that can make the spec stand out, but having the entire specialization be an homage to imbalance is wildly unhealthy for the game. Nerf. Holo. Smith.
It just needs more risk, up the heat cost in forge make over heating a bigger risk to balance out the power they have.
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> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:
> > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said:
> > > > > > pers> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Widmo.3186" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:
> > > > > > > > > > FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Renegade is too .....too.....too late
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?
> > > > > > They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy
> > > > >
> > > > > The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that
> > > >
> > > > the damage ratio is only whack if you don't know how to play against one its a shame you can no longer just melee it since it can fight back now, try not going full melee onto it and you will have an easier time, as for WvW, I haven't noticed a big increase in eles, perhaps its the matchup i am in now, but its more or less been the same as it has been ever since PoF came out,
> > >
> > > Lol yeah that's it. L2p is the fall back response usually followed by a written scenario of how to easily counter the said class lol. A class that can continually apply high stacks of burning far faster and for a longer duration than even a class built to have a lot cleanses all while being able to stall another player long enough thru continual healing and barriers to the point the give up and move on is a problem. A good ele can do just that due to how effective their burns are, they dont have to build for full dps to burst hard allowing them to focus a bit on sustain and with ele's tools that goes along way.
> > > U can defend it all u want as after these changes if it's not toned down it wont be long before the community shines its spotlight on it when people are sick of multiple ele's each mach burning teams down while being hard to drop.
> > > I'd bet on it so have fun :)
> >
> > burn damage is a bit high it ramps like power damage which is not what conditional damage is suppose to do. By that standard it is quite out of control even if you do know how to play against it. 1 mistake possible even 2 mistakes or mis reads shouldn't mean immediate death. Even more so when its put on a class that has optional dodges on multiple weapon skills and its utility while also having the power to output damage while being evasive.
> >
> > That said all it needs is its burn stacks per certain skill adjusted so its not doing power like damage on a build that offers so much sustain.
> >
> > The kicker is that its a hot topic for classes that have high evasion ability while having the ability to toss out damage at the same time. This is likely the biggest concern more than the fact that burn weaver melts you like butter in a hot sauce pan.
>
> I think it's more the state of condi's is OP rather than weavers OP same for other condi specs. Using weaver as a example its dots rival some burst damage amounts and are able to be constantly applied far easier than they can be cleansed all while being able to take a beating. Yes bad ele's or players just learning get destroyed fast cuz ele at base is very squishy but a player that knows how to build it and use its defensive tools its like the most offensive/defensive class only rivaled by holo but for different reasons.
> This will be aperant soon enough lol
Regardless burn stacking in such high amounts that it ramps faster than power focused damage is not ok. Thats why its suppose to be condition damage damage over time not instant damage like power damage which is currently what burning can translate to with weaver. The constant application you speak of is likely referencing mirage as nothing else really constantly applies conditions as well as that also ramps too fast for the sustain they have.
Ideally condition builds that are not the meta profession/elites right now are the balanced ones, their ramp is slow, they are not super safe while attacking and applying conditions, and they dont have a ton of sustain backing up the time required to kill with conditions. Everything else is way out of hand. That unfortunately includes weaver.
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> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:
> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > @"Axl.8924" said:
> > > > pers> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > > > > > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said:
> > > > > > > @"Widmo.3186" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:
> > > > > > > > FB's offensive kit has too many condis, ccs, and sustain.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Weavers dodge too much, takes too much to take them down.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thief still does too much damage for a sidekick.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mirage still has too much evade or invuln.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Renegade is too .....too.....too late
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2. Nerf fireweaver damage, dont touch other weaver/ele in general builds. Takes much to kill him? Yes, but also you arent dying, are you? Its either full sustain (Mender) or full damage (FA), fireweaver is the only build that has kinda both
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lots of classes have both damage and sustain, Why can't ele have both? rather than being the only class which can have either decent damage and no sustain or no damage and loads of sustain.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah others do have both at same time but how much of each at same time matters
> > > >
> > > > Personally and this is my opinion, every class should have at least a little bit of sustain.
> > > >
> > > > I am talking about a little, not a ridiculous amount where you can survive forever but not having no sustain where if you encounter any class that has a ton of sustain and mobility that they can just blow you up without any way to survive, as that is not fun.
> > > >
> > > > Also, how would you solve the problem that ELE sustain is built-in?
> > > > They got access to heal and defensives and they really need it because they are squishy
> > >
> > > The sustain to damage ratio(burning burst) is out of whack on ele. There's a good reason they have increased their presence 10 fold in pvp and wvw lol we can all guess why. They've always been fun so it's not that
> >
> > the damage ratio is only whack if you don't know how to play against one its a shame you can no longer just melee it since it can fight back now, try not going full melee onto it and you will have an easier time, as for WvW, I haven't noticed a big increase in eles, perhaps its the matchup i am in now, but its more or less been the same as it has been ever since PoF came out,
>
> Lol yeah that's it. L2p is the fall back response usually followed by a written scenario of how to easily counter the said class lol. A class that can continually apply high stacks of burning far faster and for a longer duration than even a class built to have a lot cleanses all while being able to stall another player long enough thru continual healing and barriers to the point the give up and move on is a problem. A good ele can do just that due to how effective their burns are, they dont have to build for full dps to burst hard allowing them to focus a bit on sustain and with ele's tools that goes along way.
> U can defend it all u want as after these changes if it's not toned down it wont be long before the community shines its spotlight on it when people are sick of multiple ele's each mach burning teams down while being hard to drop.
> I'd bet on it so have fun :)
burn damage is a bit high it ramps like power damage which is not what conditional damage is suppose to do. By that standard it is quite out of control even if you do know how to play against it. 1 mistake possible even 2 mistakes or mis reads shouldn't mean immediate death. Even more so when its put on a class that has optional dodges on multiple weapon skills and its utility while also having the power to output damage while being evasive.
That said all it needs is its burn stacks per certain skill adjusted so its not doing power like damage on a build that offers so much sustain.
The kicker is that its a hot topic for classes that have high evasion ability while having the ability to toss out damage at the same time. This is likely the biggest concern more than the fact that burn weaver melts you like butter in a hot sauce pan.
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> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:
> Necromancers are cheating when they use rune of speed.
Make it so chill and cripple go back to effecting movement skills so players cant dash and leap at you endlessly while under those conditions practically ignoring them and i will happily give up my rune of speed.
Cut out a massve portion of necro's conditional defense playstyle over time while not compensating their mobility or defensive utility.
Necromancers would much rather use other runes. Speed rune is used for a very specific niche reason and there is also a reason why you dont see very many other professions using it very once in a while a melee focused soul beast might use it but outside of that its mostly necormancers... i wonder why.
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> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > @"Anchoku.8142" said:
> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:
> > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:
> > > > > > > > **Necromancer**
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > * Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked. **WHICH** control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > good question
> > > > > > Better question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.
> > > >
> > > > Soft CC are not control effects. Check the Wiki for a list. The only real question is whether Fear and Taunt are included. They did not used to be Control Effects. Control effects are sometimes called hard CC, as you probably know.
> > > >
> > > > The term CC (crowd control) is a general catch-all for anything that reduces an opponent's freedom to take action and helps dealing with a crowd so its definition tends to be more flexible. A poison AoE area denial skill could be called crowd control in a looser sense if it causes players to avoid it like tear gas and water canons IRL.
> > > >
> > > > Insidius Disruption sounds like the old anti-stunlock trait Necro once had but may be better, or worse.
> > > >
> > > > "Insidius Disruption: When hit with a control effect, each of up to five opponents within 120 radius will receive 1 stack of Torment for 2 seconds. Each stack of Torment given costs 2000 health. 10 second internal cool down." <- It could be like that.
> > >
> > > Read further down the wiki page about non-disabling control effects, which are also control effects. Hence my question on their distinction.
> >
> > The 'Similar to... ' section of Wiki is mixing and confusing some terms. For most of the time since release Control Effects were strictly defined and their icons have a consistent style of gray and white. It was only recently that Fear and Taunt were flagged (in software) as control effects with regard to trait and skill proc'ing.
>
> At the same time wording within traits and skills exist to differentiate between control effects and disabling foes, for instance Attacker's Insight on Spellbreaker.
>
> So we return to the question of which control effects count for this redone trait, all control effects, disabling control effects, or non-disabling control effects?
>
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > i mean if this trait really procs on cripple, chill, etc it would be a nice healthy boost for core necromancer but how limited will they make the trait due to the elite specs which might make it not so much a healthy boost lol
>
> Well if they do to it what they did to Dhuumfire, where Scourge has an ICD (5s WvW/PvP 1s PvE) but other specs do not then it would indeed be a healthy boost to Core Necro, and a healthy boost to Condi Reaper.
>
> I think this would be a VERY nice trait if this were the case.
Granted i dislike the idea of reaper heading back in the condition direction after all this work to try and force it into a power role but i mean i guess it could be.
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> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:
> > @"Daishi.6027" said:
> > The current suggested changes are more or less fine, but fails to solve the actual problem of condi Mirage.
> >
> > What NEEDS to be done, at least in terms of PvP is reduce the reliance and necessity of clone spam and ambush doing most of the leg work for damage. Nerfing illusion generation is nothing but a bandaid that will only make the class feel ALOT worse in the long run; when the main issue is properly resolved... (if anything mostly because devs stubbornly refuse to revert changes.)
> >
> > As for Mirage cloak: if chrono is any example, then yeah I’m scared.
> >
> > Also Power Mirage needs buffs.
>
> It is not fine. Take any weapon in the game. Now cut the damage in half. Would any of them be "fine"?
Depending on the weapon and profession yes actually some weapons are highly over tuned right now and cutting them by half in pvp would work wonders. (assuming this is a short term fix and not a long term. Long term the better long term solution would be to just give everyone a boon culling
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> @"Axl.8924" said:
> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > @"Axl.8924" said:
> > > > @"phokus.8934" said:
> > > > > @"Levetty.1279" said:
> > > > > > @"DarthEros.3547" said:
> > > > > > Instead of moaning about it, why don’t you guys head over to the thread and give constructive feedback as to why the changes are bad? @"Cal Cohen.3527" has said in those threads that the changes aren’t locked in yet, and I am sure the team would be willing to reconsider if you can articulate why the changes aren’t a good idea. If you just hide in here saying it’s bad but not actually bother justifying that you aren’t going to get anywhere, and it just makes it look like you are moaning because you want your class to stay OP.
> > > > >
> > > > > Everytime they put these balance previews up they get many responses saying the pros and cons for each change on each class, they never listen to a single one.
> > > >
> > > > They should change the wording of their threads from "Feedback" to something a little less ironic.
> > >
> > > I remember someone saying that only way they listen is WVW forums might as well try that to cry about mesmer issues in WVW to see if they listen?
> >
> > Is it worth it? what are the odds of them screwing this up even more?
>
> They probably will mess it up anyway since ANET is incompetent.
>
> How many times have people, for instance, pointed out issues mesmers have and they nerf the completely wrong thing? probably quite a bit, and then not only not compensating mesmers but leaving it the way it was after the massive nerf.
sadly this happens to every-class except guardian for the most part i guess its mesmers turn up on the chopping block again.
>
> The nerfs to Chrono hurt in PVE a little and I get the feeling they rarely listen to people when the class that is getting nerfs warns them that this nerf they do might kill the class or severely cripple them to the point of being undesirable in PvE.
>
> The nerf to cloak mentioned by people could have dire consequences, but the people asking for it aren't the ones who are going to pay the consequences, it is always at the expense of player fun.
>
>
Sometimes it hurts in the long run to make cool outlier mechanics that no other profession has.
Example
Scourge shades
Mirage cloak +EM or IH
Every other elite spec is more or less just getting the numbers in the right spot or cutting down the boons but these 2 things are so volatile in terms of balance that they cant properly balance them. Fun for the user not fun for anyone fighting it (while its super advantageous/effective) even more so when you are looking at examples like bugged released scourge that insta melted people for 2 months. And Condi Mirage staff + IH full damage clones which was just painful for the majority of people to fight against.
This game was not ready for a mechanic that allowed players to dodge while doing sizable amounts of condi damage in return or dodging without getting cast interrupted or while under cc.
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dont nerf weaver he says... condi weaver ramping its damage faster than almost any other power build in the game.... yup seems normal.
power dps ramping hard at the start of combat
Condi dps weaver ramping faster
Condi is not suppose to ramp as fast a power damage but hits higher potential over time.... condi weaver checking both boxes lul for fast ramp and high potential damage over time.
Overall for pve at this point i say buff everything and just set a max damage cap that everyone can hit that way everyone is literally balanced in terms of damage lol
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> @"Anchoku.8142" said:
> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:
> > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > > > > > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:
> > > > > > > **Necromancer**
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked. **WHICH** control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > good question
> > > > > Better question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits
> > > > >
> > > > > Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general
> > > > >
> > > > > I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.
> > > >
> > > > Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.
> > > >
> > > > I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.
> > >
> > > Soft CC are not control effects. Check the Wiki for a list. The only real question is whether Fear and Taunt are included. They did not used to be Control Effects. Control effects are sometimes called hard CC, as you probably know.
> > >
> > > The term CC (crowd control) is a general catch-all for anything that reduces an opponent's freedom to take action and helps dealing with a crowd so its definition tends to be more flexible. A poison AoE area denial skill could be called crowd control in a looser sense if it causes players to avoid it like tear gas and water canons IRL.
> > >
> > > Insidius Disruption sounds like the old anti-stunlock trait Necro once had but may be better, or worse.
> > >
> > > "Insidius Disruption: When hit with a control effect, each of up to five opponents within 120 radius will receive 1 stack of Torment for 2 seconds. Each stack of Torment given costs 2000 health. 10 second internal cool down." <- It could be like that.
> >
> > Read further down the wiki page about non-disabling control effects, which are also control effects. Hence my question on their distinction.
>
> The 'Similar to... ' section of Wiki is mixing and confusing some terms. For most of the time since release Control Effects were strictly defined and their icons have a consistent style of gray and white. It was only recently that Fear and Taunt were flagged (in software) as control effects with regard to trait and skill proc'ing.
i mean if this trait really procs on cripple, chill, etc it would be a nice healthy boost for core necromancer but how limited will they make the trait due to the elite specs which might make it not so much a healthy boost lol
-
> @"Anchoku.8142" said:
> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > > @"Anchoku.8142" said:
> > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > > > > > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:
> > > > > > > **Necromancer**
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > * Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked. **WHICH** control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > good question
> > > > > Better question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits
> > > > >
> > > > > Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general
> > > > >
> > > > > I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.
> > > >
> > > > Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.
> > > >
> > > > I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.
> > >
> > > Soft CC are not control effects. Check the Wiki for a list. The only real question is whether Fear and Taunt are included. They did not used to be Control Effects. Control effects are sometimes called hard CC, as you probably know.
> > >
> > > The term CC (crowd control) is a general catch-all for anything that reduces an opponent's freedom to take action and helps dealing with a crowd so its definition tends to be more flexible. A poison AoE area denial skill could be called crowd control in a looser sense if it causes players to avoid it like tear gas and water canons IRL.
> > >
> > > Insidius Disruption sounds like the old anti-stunlock trait Necro once had but may be better, or worse.
> > >
> > > "Insidius Disruption: When hit with a control effect, each of up to five opponents within 120 radius will receive 1 stack of Torment for 2 seconds. Each stack of Torment given costs 2000 health. 10 second internal cool down." <- It could be like that.
> >
> > Read further down the wiki page about non-disabling control effects, which are also control effects. Hence my question on their distinction.
>
> The 'Similar to... ' section of Wiki is mixing and confusing some terms. For most of the time since release Control Effects were strictly defined and their icons have a consistent style of gray and white. It was only recently that Fear and Taunt were flagged (in software) as control effects with regard to trait and skill proc'ing.
i mean if this trait really procs on cripple, chill, etc it would be a nice healthy boost for core necromancer but how limited will they make the trait due to the elite specs which might make it not so much a healthy boost lol
-
> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:
> > > > **Necromancer**
> > > >
> > > > * Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.
> > >
> > > People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked. **WHICH** control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.
> > >
> > > If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > good question
> > Better question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits
> >
> > Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general
> >
> > I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.
>
> Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.
Not unless they do something with reapers base attacking speed which that in itself prevents the other 2 grand masters from being anywhere near viable or revert deathly chill back to making chill itself do damage in pvp only now that the modes are split to help the dps ramp a bit faster.
Condi reaper wont be viable with a few extra stacks of 3 sec torments imo. Compared to current condi builds its not safe enough while applying its conditions and the conditional ramp is far too slow. (which it should be for everyone else but thats no the case atm)
That said i highly doubt its going to be lesser control effects like chill and cripple that proc this kind of thing.
>
> I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.
I guess we have to wait and see really.
-
Well with season 5 im almost positive we will get at least 1 more mount speculating from the strike instance debuff which states its too cold for all of our current mounts which come from the desert region.
That sad if a new x pack was to come i would hope it moves away from mounts and into something else. But something that can still be used in all areas of the game similarly to mounts / gliders
-
> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:
> > **Necromancer**
> >
> > * Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.
>
> People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked. **WHICH** control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.
>
> If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.
>
>
good question
Better question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits
Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general
I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.
-
This is why games dont design stealth with the idea of it being literally true stealth anymore. Its usually more like camouflage in most games where if the target is close enough and you look carefully you can still see a faint shimmer of them even more so if they are moving or are taking strike damage. Ideally its good enough to sneak around and close a gap but if some one makes a read and guesses where you are and happens to be close enough you can totally be seen to some extent which means you can be hit by "some" skills even if you cant be hit by skills that require a target. (which would make quite a difference depending on the profession trying to attack you.)
Ideally there needs to be 2 kinds of stealth in this game active camouflage that would be more common this would be what you get from easier sources like leaping or blasting a smoke field or rolling with a rifle in hand and which is more like what i just said above it not a true or perfect stealth.
And very very limited "true stealth" which only a few skills (hide in shadows, Shadow Meld, Mass invis, ((example skills)) provide and cant be extended for anything more than 10 seconds provided you or multiple people use multiple skills that provide the effect.
The only other real solution is to add a lot more reveal to skills across the game but that might be a even more unfair to the thief in general though.
I think builds that lack counter-paly or hold a significant power role for long extended periods of times through methods of evasion (even more so if its evasion while dealing damage) and im not just talking about thief... do need to be looked at I dont think the OP means that the stealth camper build is op its just hard/overly frustrating to fight a target thats basically not there and can take free shots at you at their own convenance which is a perfectly fine thing to start a conversation about.
Its fun for the thief but not for anything that is its target.
-
> @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:
> > > @"Radagascar.6231" said:
> > > The fact that Firebrand is not on here at all is INCREDIBLY worrying. You have Staff Thief listed, yet FB is not being looked at? Please don't be so out of touch with what is actually incredibly obnoxious and overpowered to play against. Look. At. Firebrand.
> >
> > I'm pretty scared of Firebrand, pretty much variants, and Fire Weaver next patch based on these notes.
>
> It's because of you people if they will nerf the wrong things.......
I wouldnt be scared for firebrand because gurdian's base kit is strong. They could effectively nerf the heck out of only the firebrand line and it would still do fine because the base it sits ontop of ifs one of the most if not the most solid ideal situation that a core profession should be in. A few others are close like warrior and ranger. But in terms of balanced guardian at its core is near perfect always has strengths and weaknesses based on how / what you build. But what ever you build into is always very effective.
You should be worried for firebrand only if they start over nerfing the core aspects of guardian and not firebrand itself which is where most of the issues are.
In relation to fire weaver its more so balancing the damage with the evades properly a big issue right now is skill that either do a ton of damage and hard cc at the same time or skills/combs that allow a person to strike while being safe with evades.
-
> @"Lily.1935" said:
> > @"misterman.1530" said:
> > > @"Robert Gee.9246" said:
> > > **Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?**
> > > No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.
> >
> > Can you explain why the Necro is the only class that has many skills and traits that when triggered can damage or apply a ton of conditions on the necro itself? How is this, in any way, a fair design? I can honestly design a build that, when I cast skills, the necro can pretty much commit suicide without ever having been damaged by an NPC or another player. Is this actually "by design"?
>
> Don't fight this aspect of it! I want to pay life for skills! I just want those skills to have an extremely strong pay off for doing so! I want the necromancer to have traits that are influenced by life sacrifice! I want this to be meaningful. At the moment it seems strange because necromancer is a mechanics graveyard...
I think thats my issue though the balance of pay off and cost is not really balanced properly.
Maybe if this was 2016 sure... but in the current of 2019 the cost/risk is always mad high while the pay off is subpar or moderate at best.
-
> @"Asuran.5469" said:
> Maybe the power creep has a lot to do with + boon duration and how easily obtainable it is. There are tons of runes and traits now that grant large chunks of universal concentration stat for all boons the character is generating.
This +1 i agree this is where alot of it comes from but only in some cases.
Some classes were already good with generating set boons and at one point there was talk about toning down boons and condi.
Condi was toned down once and its already back out of control again on a few professions.
Boons if i recall were never toned down.
Then we have a lot of traits now too that also cause might to generate more power per stack and alot more ferocity / condition damage too.
I do often wonder how the game would fare without amulets and runes and just letting the profession + weapons chosen dictate a players damage and play style. It probably wouldnt work hahah.
-
> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:
> I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.
Its unblockable so that GS has a skill that can reliably generate a clone. I dont think that needs to change personally. GS for the most part is probably fine as it is i think
-
> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"flog.3485" said:
> > > Good changes overall.
> > > As for the loss of fall damage traits, why not not make it part of some banner, utility or even food ?
> >
> > This is not a bad idea either along with people who said possibly make a mastery i think a food or utility idea could work too.
>
> That would be unnecessarily over-complicating it rather than leaving the traits as it was. Even if this is a post glider/mount era, not everyone has either/both of those. Anet, if you are going to remove those falling traits in this "post glider/mount" time, why don't you make glider/mounts available to everyone then? Yeah? If we are going down the nonsensical path, why don't we also go down this one.
Well ill start with the end of your statement first about it being nonsensical. Its really might not be because we dont know what they are planning to do with season 5. Secondly most of the areas people are complaining about are areas where you cant use gliders and mounts which means your idea of giving gliders and mounts to everyone solves nothing for these locations.
For the majority gliders or mounts are available ideally unless you are free to play then im not sure what to say.
I mean rare combat situations where you want to take those traits for fall damage reduction might be a bit niche (maybe wvw and a few rare spots in general pve but i cant say ive ever need to stop what i was doing to take that fall damage reduction traits.) and jumping puzzles as other people have pointed out can just be done the correct way they were indented to be done without the need of such traits.
-
some surprisingly good norn art here needs more charr tho :)
-
> @"flog.3485" said:
> Good changes overall.
> As for the loss of fall damage traits, why not not make it part of some banner, utility or even food ?
This is not a bad idea either along with people who said possibly make a mastery i think a food or utility idea could work too.
-
> @"viquing.8254" said:
> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reflect kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > proj block kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said :
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What can you say about my why is axe bad ?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > so itssupper whammed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 its melee
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 its prjectile based
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 its multi hit ( retal )
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4 its condi.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > its just asking to get kitten over
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
> > > > > > > > > > > > axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.
> > > > > > > > > > > Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.
> > > > > > > > > > > > reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.
> > > > > > > > > > > But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.
> > > > > > > > > > > > The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.
> > > > > > > > > > > Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.
> > > > > > > > > > > > like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.
> > > > > > > > > > > Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
> > > > > > > > > > > > its all of the combine of being
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1 condi.
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2 melee
> > > > > > > > > > > > 3 projectile based
> > > > > > > > > > > > 4 multi hit
> > > > > > > > > > > > the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
> > > > > > > > > > > > or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based
> > > > > > > > > > > > + the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
> > > > > > > > > Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
> > > > > > > > > > its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Secondly
> > > > > > > > > As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
> > > > > > > > and you yet again dont read.
> > > > > > > How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
> > > > > > > What about the other 8 players in the game
> > > > > > > how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
> > > > > > > if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
> > > > > > > > reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To be clear
> > > > > > > Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to *insert cat*
> > > > > > > ???
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > becouse I roam alot, and +1 for axe mirage is suffering, most of the times I would rather 1v1 it out.
> > > > > This could be the problem too though you just roaming around through a match
> > > > >
> > > > > > make firebrands axe projectile based. make it also glich out, make it also hit random enemies instead of targets from time to time. And see how it goes afterwards :D
> > > > > We should also fix that for revs so that their sword attacks only focus the mirage and not their clones dont you agree? ;)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > sure, make rev sword only focus mirage. then make it reflectable, make it glich out, make it sometimes port them into walls. and out of controll points. Im sure that we would see alot of revs after such a change, and im sure that no revenant would go onto the forum and whine about it.
> > > LOL sword 2 is already reflectable
> > > Sword 3 can be very buggy too if someone moves beyond its range during the wind up it bugs the skill and puts it on full cd.
> > > You can make a rev tp out of a control point by walking out of the control point when they are doing the sword 3 as it follows you :'D
> > >
> > > > the sheer fact that its possible for axe to just flung me from the middle of the ship duing pirate fractal..
> > > no you dont get flung from the ship randomly you either use a skill at a bad timing with the winds or you use it from a bad position and fling yourself off the boat. As you control when you activate those skills and have eyes to see where the boss is standing and where the aoe's winds are going to appear its not the weapon throwing you off the boat thats user error.
> > > > and that its just acceptable, its just part of the weapon, axe is good XD, every clone you make throught axe 2 attacks the pet and not ranger XD, its fine XD. when ranger runs away from you every single ambush will hit the pet since its closer XD, its fine XD weapon is good XD.
> > > No it attacks the closes target to you or where the clone itself spawns there is a chance that yes the clone could attack the pet but thats not a 100% chance clones have behaved this way for a long time why are you just now complaining about it with axe only. I mean if only there was a unique shatter or something to force your clones to retarget your target but people argue against unique mirage shatters.
> > > ???
> > >
> > > I think im done lmao with this post i think you just made it clear you dont know enough about basic game mechanics and skill functionality to be going back and forth anymore. Particularly with that bit saying that rev sword skills should be made reflectable when they already are and always have been.
> > >
> >
> > immagine arguing that weapon that is hard countered by every single build its supposed to fight on a sidenode is good. And you say I dont know basic game mechanic.
> > Im trying to explain to you that most weapons have 1-2 weaknesses at best, and that builds that use them can avoid them, while axe has 4-6 of them and they are not covered by class mechanics. Axe is fun but kitten and glichy weapon, it has no place in PvP.
> >
> > And no, during pirate fractal I used axe 3 to the middle of the boat, it TPed me to the plank, and flung be under the ship, its bugged.
> > Axe 3 can just fling you underneath the target on maps like skyhammer, or just yeet you out of the node and make you charge at the wall. and you compare it to rev sword -.-
> >
> > And to sume up this mesmer axe vs rev sword debate.
> > Rev sword is melee, and 1 out of 5 attacks is reflectable.
> > axe is melee.
> > axe is condi
> > 3/3 attacks are reflectable or semi reflectable.
> > your arguments just prove my point.
> > axe is a good weapon, unless clones attack the pet. its fine it doesnt always happen.
> > or when someone puts reflect dome, itdoesnt always happen right? or when someone aoe cleanses, or when it gliches.
> > or when someone provides aoe retaliation, all of those are rare. or when clones focus illusions/phantasms. all of those are rare, right?
> > but when you combine all of them its preety much 50%+ of the games.
> >
> > think about it, did you have a game where there was no : ranger,mesmer,or guard?
> > did you have a game where on the sidenode there was no ele/warrior ?
> > just think rationally, you lose to weaver/warrior, mid firebrand makes you useless. and roaming thiefs farm you.
> > where do you go? what do you do?
>
> It's fun to see that @"ZDragon.3046" carefully avoid answering each time we talk about data and factuals things.
> Like I have maybe 4 to 5 arguments on my lasts posts that he totally ignored because you know when you cry about mesmer, you are abviously right to whine.
Your arguments are almost if not more pointless than his.
At least he is looking at the skills and how they work which is factual and more realistic than just looking at numbers. I already talked with you about numbers and now you are just attempting to harass through passive aggressive taunt post with me tagged in them. I told you like weeks ago i was mostly done conversing with you because you want me to provide you with numbers that effectively show nothing and do not add to the conversation. On top of this you have already generated your own "version" of these numbers if i post anything different you are just going to tell me im wrong and you are right there for i dont see the point in answering your "arguments" You keep asking for "factual data" and "numbers" as if those things are finite to happen that way in every combat situation which is not the case. There is no way for me to truely fact check your data even more so in the case of how rng mesmer can be especially with a weapon like staff. Your data would be ideally just as useless as mine and while posting number looks nice for the sake of argument in most case numbers of every single point of damage being done leads to nothing.
I dont need data to see how other people feel about how the match ups go between staff mirage and various other professions.
I dont need data to know my experince between fighting an axe mirage and a passive evasive staff mirage.
There are pages of post here and in many other places flooded with comments that are not mine that talk about how silly mirage is along with post of every other crazy class like holo and soul beast weaver etc etc. There is probably a reason those other people ignored your replies after a certain number too because the realize you are not someone they can converse with and there is effectively no point as you end every argument with "your words mean nothing because you provide no data and facts behind it even if they did provide one or the other."
So no i wont go back to answer your arguments because you want data that ideally means nothing or is totally unrelated or unreasonable to prove as factual data. Ideally you are asking me to give you something that could be held with reasonable doubt so that you can say you are correct while telling me how im wrong. Im not going to waste my energy doing that or attempting to do that.
Can you stop passive aggressively tagging me in attempts to taunt me if you do it again i wont hesitate to flag your post just as people have flagged mine in the past when i got out of line.
Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP
in Player vs. Player
Posted
> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"Fueki.4753" said:
> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > >
> > > I dont think the issue is it not having tells the issues is combined with all the other cc in warriors kit there is physically no way possible to avoid it all if chained together in a short enough time frame.
> >
> > With that argument, shouldn't Mesmer lose a lot of its Daze?
> > Mesmers stunlock me way more often than Warriors.
> >
> >
>
> Meta warrior has more hard stuns then meta mesmer has dazes, And I dont think I have to explain the difference between how good a daze is and how good stun is, right?
Effectively they are both cc's the difference between daze and stun is minimal both are effective the real difference is is that warriors stuns do sizable damage and mesmers dazes do not (directly)
If mesmers Dazes did do heavy damage like that they wouldn't be acceptable either.
> thats on top of warriors stuns removing boons.
This bit is kind of irrelevant not every warrior has this only spellbreakers.