ZDragon.3046
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Posts posted by ZDragon.3046
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> @"Allarius.5670" said:
> Are Runes of Speed fun? Yes, absolutely. Are they good for the game? No, not at all.
> Consider the previous form of Runes of Vampirism. Players would turn to invulnerable mist at a certain health threshold. This allowed them to counterplay burst and 1 shots. The runes became mandatory. Also, consider passive invuln traits designed to do the same thing. They were also considered largely mandatory. Both skewed the game unfavourably and the vocal outcry from the playerbase was loud against both.
Not the same situation.
>
> If it looks, tastes, smells, and feels like a similar situation then it probably is. If high mobility play is unfavourably dominating the gamemode, then high mobility mechanics need to be adjusted rather than fall into a situation that forces large portions of the playerbase into a singular rune option. This is where I see things going. Or ... give those professions with low mobility more equal footing.
Glad you pointed this out because thats not whats happening so there is no need for concern.
Ideally speed rune does give you an mobility increase but very few classes need that necro is likely one of the few classes that can make the most out of it due to how ungodly low its mobility is in general. Anyone else who runes the rune which many wont because their mobility is higher than what the rune provides by a decent margion would negate the effect of someone else running it. It wont stop you from taking damage or regenerate your hp or negate a burst so i dont think its a cause for concern. Considering conditions like cripple and chill use to be more effective in the past if we cant have a rune to speed mobility up when needed then what about at least have runes that properly slow others down. (which will feel super suppressive to most players leading them to call it any runes like it unbalanced.) Make your choice really idk.
>
> Mobility is incredibly important for sPvP, we all know that. So much so that it cannot be understated. All the more reason for it to be clearly defined and balanced within the capabilities of each profession. If Reaper and Necro are not viable without the runes, then Reaper and Necro need to be appropriately addressed directly.
To bad anet has a way of thinking that necro must alway remain slow and i you really feel that this the case make sure necro/reaper is addressed before the removal of the rune not the other-way around.
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> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:
> of all runes this one is the most broken, this rune just broke the balance of the game, some classes turn into unstoppable killing machines since they have high power and low mobility, with this and sigil of agility they can hit and run faster than anyone else while doing ridiculous amount of damage and you can't even kite them.
First of all you are not immidately faster than anyone else and anyone who also runs the rune along with you counteracts the bonus and advantage the rune provides meaning you if everyone else started using it would still be extremely low mobile compared to everyone else
Considering the rune is practically utility based and can be countered by removing swiftness from the user which completely negates all of its utility it has a wide range for counter-play across multiple classes and base things like annulment sigil
>
> when i play power reaper with this i can stomp anyone since they can't run from me.
Depending on the class there are ways to get away from it. In some classes some classes dont even need to get away from you they can just wait for you to make a mistake.
>
> also this make the life of speed hackers easier since they can just say that they are on rune of speed while they aren't.
You can always just test to see if someone is hacking or not by removing the swiftness which completely disables the runes utility all together
Ideally there is nothing wrong with this rune everyone has the option to use it and it has various ways to counter it.
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IT would be very bland and i think out of gw2 lore.
We already have something close to what orcs are in other games which are basically the charr (which imo are much better than simple orcs)
We also have the asura which are a strange race too.
That said there are probably other races that could be just as neat such as Tengu (Which have their own private citiy)or Stone-dwarves (whom are still underground dealing with the destroyers) which would be much more fitting and are currently still in the game although you rarely see them around.
Overall this game has a few cool races they could pull from if they really wanted to expand upon that as a future feature. That said new races stuff is very costly if you want to do it right and i just dont see that happening.
Either you get it right where all or most armors in the game are redesigned to fit that new race or the race gets locked its own basic racial armor and anything that comes out after the race's release which will leave fashion high and dry for a while.
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> @"Ovark.2514" said:
> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
> > > @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > > Whats the point of nerfing warrior's cunning, it's not meta and it's core war
> >
> > Because in conjunction with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charge_(warrior_skill), people can create strikes with 50% +25% = 75% damage mod, which can create 1HKO situations with skills like Eviscerate. And then because the Warrior is so tanky, he actually can sustain you while he waits for the stars to align, as he attempts to do this over and over again, until it actually works. Then in that case, you've lost the combat to a rando 15k+ strike that was dealt by a half bunker sustain class. It's too much.
> >
> > I personally like the idea behind the mechanic flow of how Tactic Core War works, but the Warrior's Cunning trait should have looked more like: +25% vs. Barrier and +10% vs. above 90% health, to begin with. I actually hope they don't nerf it as much as they plan in the patch notes. It'll be a worthless trait with too low of enhancement values.
>
> With your nerf it'll already be useless.
When being overpowered is fine and viable and being balanced is being dead / useless.
To be honest 25% on barrier would be more appropriate in spvp for sure even better if the damage only applied to the barrier itself so people are not being hard core punished for 200 point barriers.
Maybe keep it at 50% in wvw because barrier stacking is a thing it makes since for it to be high in that game mode.
The damage to foes above 90% hp needs to come down in general 25% is way too much. No other class has a damage mod anywhere near this kind of insanity for opening strikes.
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> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reflect kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > proj block kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said :
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What can you say about my why is axe bad ?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > so itssupper whammed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 its melee
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 its prjectile based
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 its multi hit ( retal )
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 4 its condi.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > its just asking to get kitten over
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
> > > > > > > > > > > > Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
> > > > > > > > > > > > Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
> > > > > > > > > > > > I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
> > > > > > > > > > > axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.
> > > > > > > > > > Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.
> > > > > > > > > > > reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.
> > > > > > > > > > But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.
> > > > > > > > > > > The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.
> > > > > > > > > > Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.
> > > > > > > > > > > like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.
> > > > > > > > > > Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
> > > > > > > > > > > its all of the combine of being
> > > > > > > > > > > 1 condi.
> > > > > > > > > > > 2 melee
> > > > > > > > > > > 3 projectile based
> > > > > > > > > > > 4 multi hit
> > > > > > > > > > > the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
> > > > > > > > > > > or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based
> > > > > > > > > > > + the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
> > > > > > > > Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
> > > > > > > > > its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Secondly
> > > > > > > > As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
> > > > > > > and you yet again dont read.
> > > > > > How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
> > > > > > What about the other 8 players in the game
> > > > > > how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
> > > > > > if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
> > > > > > > reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To be clear
> > > > > > Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to *insert cat*
> > > > > > ???
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > becouse I roam alot, and +1 for axe mirage is suffering, most of the times I would rather 1v1 it out.
> > > > This could be the problem too though you just roaming around through a match
> > > >
> > > > > make firebrands axe projectile based. make it also glich out, make it also hit random enemies instead of targets from time to time. And see how it goes afterwards :D
> > > > We should also fix that for revs so that their sword attacks only focus the mirage and not their clones dont you agree? ;)
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > sure, make rev sword only focus mirage. then make it reflectable, make it glich out, make it sometimes port them into walls. and out of controll points. Im sure that we would see alot of revs after such a change, and im sure that no revenant would go onto the forum and whine about it.
> > LOL sword 2 is already reflectable
> > Sword 3 can be very buggy too if someone moves beyond its range during the wind up it bugs the skill and puts it on full cd.
> > You can make a rev tp out of a control point by walking out of the control point when they are doing the sword 3 as it follows you :'D
> >
> > > the sheer fact that its possible for axe to just flung me from the middle of the ship duing pirate fractal..
> > no you dont get flung from the ship randomly you either use a skill at a bad timing with the winds or you use it from a bad position and fling yourself off the boat. As you control when you activate those skills and have eyes to see where the boss is standing and where the aoe's winds are going to appear its not the weapon throwing you off the boat thats user error.
> > > and that its just acceptable, its just part of the weapon, axe is good XD, every clone you make throught axe 2 attacks the pet and not ranger XD, its fine XD. when ranger runs away from you every single ambush will hit the pet since its closer XD, its fine XD weapon is good XD.
> > No it attacks the closes target to you or where the clone itself spawns there is a chance that yes the clone could attack the pet but thats not a 100% chance clones have behaved this way for a long time why are you just now complaining about it with axe only. I mean if only there was a unique shatter or something to force your clones to retarget your target but people argue against unique mirage shatters.
> > ???
> >
> > I think im done lmao with this post i think you just made it clear you dont know enough about basic game mechanics and skill functionality to be going back and forth anymore. Particularly with that bit saying that rev sword skills should be made reflectable when they already are and always have been.
> >
> 3/3 attacks are reflectable or semi reflectable.
Nope none of the attacks on skills 1,2,or3 are reflect-able at their base.
You really are pushing things out of proportion. If you take the trait Mirrored Axes then you know what you are opting into.
At best you can argue that the trait is bad in the fact that it forces projectiles onto all the skills which would be fine.
But do not blame the axe itself when that trait is not part of the base axe itself. Which is what you are proclaiming.
By this logic you are opting into make the axe "Worse or bad" which then i have to why you are doing that if you think that the projectile being reflectable is part of the problem.
Like I said most of your arguments dont make since as to why you claim axe is bad.
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> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Reflect kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > proj block kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
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> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said :
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What can you say about my why is axe bad ?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
> > > > > > > > > > > so itssupper whammed.
> > > > > > > > > > > 1 its melee
> > > > > > > > > > > 2 its prjectile based
> > > > > > > > > > > 3 its multi hit ( retal )
> > > > > > > > > > > 4 its condi.
> > > > > > > > > > > its just asking to get kitten over
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
> > > > > > > > > > Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
> > > > > > > > > > Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
> > > > > > > > > > I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
> > > > > > > > > axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.
> > > > > > > > Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.
> > > > > > > > > reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.
> > > > > > > > But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.
> > > > > > > > > The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.
> > > > > > > > Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.
> > > > > > > > > like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.
> > > > > > > > Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
> > > > > > > > > its all of the combine of being
> > > > > > > > > 1 condi.
> > > > > > > > > 2 melee
> > > > > > > > > 3 projectile based
> > > > > > > > > 4 multi hit
> > > > > > > > > the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
> > > > > > > > > or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based
> > > > > > > > > + the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
> > > > > > Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
> > > > > > > its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Secondly
> > > > > > As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
> > > > > and you yet again dont read.
> > > > How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
> > > > What about the other 8 players in the game
> > > > how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
> > > > if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots
> > > >
> > > > Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.
> > > >
> > > > You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.
> > > >
> > > > > 1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
> > > > > reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.
> > > >
> > > > What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.
> > > >
> > > > To be clear
> > > > Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged
> > > >
> > > > A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard
> > > >
> > > > Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.
> > > >
> > > > If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.
> > > >
> > > > I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to *insert cat*
> > > > ???
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > becouse I roam alot, and +1 for axe mirage is suffering, most of the times I would rather 1v1 it out.
> > This could be the problem too though you just roaming around through a match
> >
> > > make firebrands axe projectile based. make it also glich out, make it also hit random enemies instead of targets from time to time. And see how it goes afterwards :D
> > We should also fix that for revs so that their sword attacks only focus the mirage and not their clones dont you agree? ;)
> >
> >
>
> sure, make rev sword only focus mirage. then make it reflectable, make it glich out, make it sometimes port them into walls. and out of controll points. Im sure that we would see alot of revs after such a change, and im sure that no revenant would go onto the forum and whine about it.
LOL sword 2 is already reflectable
Sword 3 can be very buggy too if someone moves beyond its range during the wind up it bugs the skill and puts it on full cd.
You can make a rev tp out of a control point by walking out of the control point when they are doing the sword 3 as it follows you :'D
> the sheer fact that its possible for axe to just flung me from the middle of the ship duing pirate fractal..
no you dont get flung from the ship randomly you either use a skill at a bad timing with the winds or you use it from a bad position and fling yourself off the boat. As you control when you activate those skills and have eyes to see where the boss is standing and where the aoe's winds are going to appear its not the weapon throwing you off the boat thats user error.
> and that its just acceptable, its just part of the weapon, axe is good XD, every clone you make throught axe 2 attacks the pet and not ranger XD, its fine XD. when ranger runs away from you every single ambush will hit the pet since its closer XD, its fine XD weapon is good XD.
No it attacks the closes target to you or where the clone itself spawns there is a chance that yes the clone could attack the pet but thats not a 100% chance clones have behaved this way for a long time why are you just now complaining about it with axe only. I mean if only there was a unique shatter or something to force your clones to retarget your target but people argue against unique mirage shatters.
???
I think im done lmao with this post i think you just made it clear you dont know enough about basic game mechanics and skill functionality to be going back and forth anymore. Particularly with that bit saying that rev sword skills should be made reflectable when they already are and always have been.
-
> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Reflect kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > > > condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > > > proj block kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > > > no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
> > > > > > > > > > > fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said :
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > What can you say about my why is axe bad ?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
> > > > > > > > > > > About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
> > > > > > > > > so itssupper whammed.
> > > > > > > > > 1 its melee
> > > > > > > > > 2 its prjectile based
> > > > > > > > > 3 its multi hit ( retal )
> > > > > > > > > 4 its condi.
> > > > > > > > > its just asking to get kitten over
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
> > > > > > > > Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
> > > > > > > > Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
> > > > > > > > I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
> > > > > > > axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.
> > > > > > Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.
> > > > > > > reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.
> > > > > > But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.
> > > > > > > The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.
> > > > > > Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.
> > > > > > > like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.
> > > > > > Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
> > > > > > > its all of the combine of being
> > > > > > > 1 condi.
> > > > > > > 2 melee
> > > > > > > 3 projectile based
> > > > > > > 4 multi hit
> > > > > > > the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
> > > > > > > or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based
> > > > > > > + the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.
> > > >
> > > > This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
> > > > Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.
> > > >
> > > > Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)
> > > >
> > > > Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
> > > > > its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.
> > > >
> > > > Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.
> > > >
> > > > Secondly
> > > > As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.
> > > >
> > > > Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.
> > > >
> > > > > I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.
> > > >
> > > > If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
> > > and you yet again dont read.
> > How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
> > What about the other 8 players in the game
> > how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
> > if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots
> >
> > Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.
> >
> > You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.
> >
> > > 1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
> > > reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.
> >
> > What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.
> >
> > To be clear
> > Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged
> >
> > A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard
> >
> > Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.
> >
> > If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.
> >
> > I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to *insert cat*
> > ???
> >
> >
> >
>
> becouse I roam alot, and +1 for axe mirage is suffering, most of the times I would rather 1v1 it out.
This could be the problem too though you just roaming around through a match
> make firebrands axe projectile based. make it also glich out, make it also hit random enemies instead of targets from time to time. And see how it goes afterwards :D
We should also fix that for revs so that their sword attacks only focus the mirage and not their clones dont you agree? ;)
-
> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Reflect kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > proj block kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
> > > > > > > > > fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said :
> > > > > > > > > > > > Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
> > > > > > > > > > > What can you say about my why is axe bad ?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
> > > > > > > > > About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
> > > > > > > so itssupper whammed.
> > > > > > > 1 its melee
> > > > > > > 2 its prjectile based
> > > > > > > 3 its multi hit ( retal )
> > > > > > > 4 its condi.
> > > > > > > its just asking to get kitten over
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
> > > > > > Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
> > > > > > Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
> > > > > > I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
> > > > > axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.
> > > >
> > > > So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.
> > > >
> > > > > difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.
> > > > Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.
> > > > > reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.
> > > > But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.
> > > > > The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.
> > > > Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.
> > > > > like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.
> > > > Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.
> > > >
> > > > > PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
> > > > > its all of the combine of being
> > > > > 1 condi.
> > > > > 2 melee
> > > > > 3 projectile based
> > > > > 4 multi hit
> > > > > the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
> > > > > or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.
> > > >
> > > > I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.
> > > >
> > > > The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.
> > > >
> > > > > EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based
> > > > > + the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.
> > > >
> > > > Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.
> >
> > This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
> > Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.
> >
> > Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)
> >
> > Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.
> >
> > >
> > > you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
> > > its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.
> >
> > Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.
> >
> > Secondly
> > As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.
> >
> > Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.
> >
> > > I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.
> >
> > If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.
> >
> >
>
> you know that's a big difference in being melee being a mesmer and being a warrior right?
I do and i understand that
> the warrior can face tank anyone while a mesmer will need to waste the dodge and run away to not get one shoted
Warrior i dont think can face tank anyone no thats not correct a warrior who does this brainlessly will pretty much just die. Facts lol.
> the axe mirage will hit for 2k while a warrior will hit for 10k
power weapon vs condi weapon??? skill with 2 ammo vs a skill with 1???
or are you also applying the condition ???
> now mirage with a sword have 1s blur plus dodge plus ambush to daze so he can have more inv time
> that's why axe are bad
This statement just confuses me all together lol
-
> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Reflect kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > proj block kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > > > no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
> > > > > > > > > fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said :
> > > > > > > > > > > > Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
> > > > > > > > > > > What can you say about my why is axe bad ?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
> > > > > > > > > About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
> > > > > > > so itssupper whammed.
> > > > > > > 1 its melee
> > > > > > > 2 its prjectile based
> > > > > > > 3 its multi hit ( retal )
> > > > > > > 4 its condi.
> > > > > > > its just asking to get kitten over
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
> > > > > > Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
> > > > > > Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
> > > > > > I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
> > > > > axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.
> > > >
> > > > So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.
> > > >
> > > > > difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.
> > > > Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.
> > > > > reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.
> > > > But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.
> > > > > The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.
> > > > Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.
> > > > > like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.
> > > > Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.
> > > >
> > > > > PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
> > > > > its all of the combine of being
> > > > > 1 condi.
> > > > > 2 melee
> > > > > 3 projectile based
> > > > > 4 multi hit
> > > > > the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
> > > > > or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.
> > > >
> > > > I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.
> > > >
> > > > The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.
> > > >
> > > > > EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based
> > > > > + the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.
> > > >
> > > > Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.
> >
> > This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
> > Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.
> >
> > Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)
> >
> > Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.
> >
> > >
> > > you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
> > > its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.
> >
> > Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.
> >
> > Secondly
> > As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.
> >
> > Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.
> >
> > > I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.
> >
> > If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.
> >
> >
>
> I can fault axe mirage when he gets memed on 1v1 by every single spec.
> and you yet again dont read.
How do you know this is whats happening in every case if its a side noder are you always there with them watching this happen?
What about the other 8 players in the game
how do you know a thief which counters mes in general was not outplaying them in general maybe it was a 2v1
if you were there watching the mriage get rekt the perhaps the rest of your team could have used your help in other spots
Maybe the other team was just better than your team overall.
You really cant factually (in whats likely most cases) fault only the mirage just because they used an axe lol.
> 1 Weakness doesnt make a weapon bad, axe has NUMEROUS flaws.
> reflect,condi damage, melee, proj based, clunky, glichy.
What about the other weapons in the game that also have multiple factors or "flaws" as you call them like these though which are still used and still kill people frequently.
To be clear
Projectiles being reflected is not a direct flaw thats counter-play and it effects all projectiles on all weapon kits melee or ranged
A weapon being melee is not a direct flaw the idea of the risk of being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is standard
Having projectile based attacks as a part of a melee weapons kit is not a direct flaw as many melee weapons have projectile options built into their kits.
If all of these things together are issues then most of the weapons in the game have flaws by this logic.
I guess firebrands axe is bad too its condi, melee, multi hit and puts symbols on the ground you cant remove once down that can be abused to freely trigger things like shocking aura and fullcounter. Oh right there is a risk of being hit if you try to hit someone else with it to. The pull can miss if someone is not on even ground with with you so i guess that technically makes it clunky as well... No one uses axe and any firebrand using an axe feeds and causes the loss of matches because its also flawed to *insert cat*
???
-
> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Reflect kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > proj block kitten you over hard.
> > > > > > > no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
> > > > > > > fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said :
> > > > > > > > > > Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
> > > > > > > > > What can you say about my why is axe bad ?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
> > > > > > > About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.
> > > > >
> > > > > not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
> > > > > so itssupper whammed.
> > > > > 1 its melee
> > > > > 2 its prjectile based
> > > > > 3 its multi hit ( retal )
> > > > > 4 its condi.
> > > > > its just asking to get kitten over
> > > >
> > > > But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
> > > > Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
> > > > Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)
> > > >
> > > > Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.
> > > >
> > > > Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
> > > > I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
> > > axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.
> >
> > So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.
> >
> > > difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.
> > Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.
> > > reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.
> > But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.
> > > The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.
> > Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.
> > > like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.
> > Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.
> >
> > > PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
> > > its all of the combine of being
> > > 1 condi.
> > > 2 melee
> > > 3 projectile based
> > > 4 multi hit
> > > the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
> > > or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.
> >
> > I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.
> >
> > The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.
> >
> > > EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based
> > > + the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.
> >
> > Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.
> >
> >
>
> axe is not bad becouse people know what to avoid, axe is bad becouse you put yourself in danger to use it, and when you do it. you still have to land almost everything to make a difference. "burst" weapon my kitten, you have to land 3-4 hits to make as much "burst" as other nonburst classes.
This applies to almost every melee weapon though so how is it that only axe is bad. Its generally not fair if a melee weapon puts you face to face lets you do damage without risk of taking damage back.
Also of course you should not expect to do damage if you dont land your hits this also applies to all other melee weapons in the game.
Risk on being hit to land a hit with a melee weapon is not an argumentative thing to complain about unless that risk is non existent or super minimal. A risk being there does not aid in the argument that the weapon being bad as this applies to ANY melee weapon in the game if you could apply damage in melee range and it just be 100% or mostly super safe the majority of the time people are going to tell you its op because there is no counter-play. (thats was the issue with what was the high evade thief staff jump bug that was addressed, Granted the point increase cost was not justified)
Its one thing to argue that the damage is possibly not high enough but another to argue that the weapon is bad because you might get hit trying to hit someone else.
>
> you dont get the point tho. its not about axe being proj based.
> its about axe being proj based, AND multi hit, AND condi, AND melee, and dont even get me started on how the axes hit the closes target, GL focusing during teamfights or against ranger. half the damage wasted on the pet, same with clones. get spawned and attack the pet, or illusions... or just not the right person.
Well First..... of the 4 factors you list here at least 3 of them in some cases all 4 of them at any given time apply to at least 1 or multiple other cases in the game i dont think simply taking 1 of these factors off the mirage axe is going to make it any better than what it is right now.
Secondly
As far as calling out axes not always tracking your target if other foes are around, this is not a mirage only issue either Rev would like to speak to you about why their sword skills 2 and 3 suffer the same damage losses on their main targets if other targets are near the main target.
Most of your arguments as to why its bad dont make since because they apply to at least 1 other if not multiple other examples in some way shape or form which suffer the same faults.
> I see axe mirage every 30games mb? if in my team I propably lose, if on the enemy he gets farmed. Becouse lets not kid ourselfs, mirage is side noder, and current meta sidenoders kitten over axe HARD.
If you lose a game you cant auto fault the mirage using an axe though lol. There are 9 other factors in that game as to why you could have loss including yourself. To assume you lost a game because a mirage was playing axe is very ill way of thinking and judging your teammate.
-
> @"Dadnir.5038" said:
> Is it really "OK" to do that?
>
> Not so long ago, I've seen on this subforum several complaints about revive time being to short (mainly due to the combination of a relatively short cast time skill and quickness) and now, we got an annoucement about some revive skills having their cast time and CD reduced... Is this really the right thing to do at this point of the balance?
Old Cast time 3seconds
Current meta time to kill someone from full hp with a raw nasty burst 0.8 to 1.5 seconds
That said i dont see why they shouldnt reduce some of these cast times. Alot of the skills are not usable because they take too long and the targets die or you get interrupted long before you where anywhere near finish casting the skill.
interms of necro signet i wouldnt worry aobut that active too much i dont see people using it very often its still a fairly long 1.5s cast and it has the hp cost ontop of it.
> Well, if we talk about the elementalist's glyph, of course it will still suck. In case of the necromancer the passive of the signet might make taking the skill worthwhile and borderline OP in sPvP. If we couple that with a FB, we might be on for a new train of complaints. That's mainly why I'm wondering whether they are doing a wise things by making a move on the revive skills.
Considering i have alot of exp with how the passive works in its current unbuffed state (I use it as one of my spvp builds commonly) i dont think the passive even with the trait will make it OP in anyway. IT will be a tiny stronger if you invest in it but not by all that much the current version is 4% the new will be 6% thats maybe roughly a 260-350 (the increased 2%) points of life force difference depending on your vitality investment and if you are running soul reaping or not.
Whats likely going to happen is that people will start using signet of undeath for its passive while most people currently do not.
To be clear there is a massive difference when you use it for its passive at all even right now vs when you dont use it at all. This will make people who are not use to seeing it used deem it as possibly op when realistically its not even with whats going to be the 2% increase on grandmaster trait investment.
Its not commonly used and understood thus if it starts to get used its now "OP"
It does improve sustain a good bit through life force but thats already happens with its current 4% every 3 seconds vs when you dont use it at all.
-
> @"killfil.3472" said:
> Replace the 10 seconds of swiftness by a 3 or perhaps 4 seconds of superspeed?
would rather keep the swiftness so long as speed rune is in the game tbh
How about we remove soul marks and put it to staff baseline and give ourselves a new trait in its slot in general lol
While we are at it lets update unyielding blast.
-
I only used this signet on one of my reapers as a life force generator anyways which is good for how its getting buffed but other than that..... i never NEVER USED the active.
And i sure as hell wont use it now. almost 10k damage to myself to save 1 person is never going to be worth it in real combat situations with the current shape and form of necro.
Passive buff = great
Active change = worse than it was before.
So 1 step forward 2 steps back?
-
> @"viquing.8254" said:
>
> Come on about "high pressure high application condition set ups" give me number please.
Do note when i say high pressure high application condition setup im talking about the mirage staff IH build that is one of the most common builds mirages will run.
You want me to give you numbers based on staff which has a chance to inflict 1 of 3 different random conditions on the auto attacks alone which bounces and is thrown back and forth from the caster and his/her clones with complete accuracy?
Do you know how impractical this really is to perform which is one of the main issues with staff from the start. How can i give you numbers on something thats not static. The pressure applied from staff is passively static in the sense that it can always be applying conditions so long as the target is in range. What is not static is which condition is inflicted which can lead to situations of low, moderate, or high damage being taken. The ambush attack is static as all 3 conditions are applied every time but the autos are not. Chaos storm damage is not static as it also inflicts random procs. Chaos arura is also random and not static. Looking at the rng factors on this weapon alone its not possible for anyone to produce accurate numbers down to a fine detail. This is not even including factors like if you are alone vs when you are not. You can probably produce an average number between the high and low point but you are literally asking me for something thats not reasonably feasible to produce. I dont even think you could factually produce this in a realistic situation as you would need to do multiple or dozens of situations if not more because of the RNG of the conditions being applied at any given time.
Im also not sure how numbers alone show high pressure numbers show max or minimum potential (if everything goes perfect and you land everything without anyone dodging anything) thats all numbers alone show. im not sure why you are pulling the numbers card so often i mean i understand the idea of looking at maximum potential but that has nothing to do with high application or high pressure playstyles. Even in those you likely wont hit every single thing.
-
@"Robert Gee.9246"
Please reconsider that health cost for signet of undeath.
Im not against the idea just that cost is way to too much for only 1 target revival unless this thing bings back a fully defeated player lol.
Increasing the passive was a good choice for all forums of necromancer ?
but 50% of base hp to save 1 person is not worth it in my opinion. Even if i want to play a support form of necromancer ill take my chances with transfusion + f before this thats far more risk than reward its not in anyway balanced in weight which is often the case with a a lot of necromancer things (looking at you Unholy Martyr and Trait boosted Plague signet).
I would much rather suffer a higher cd for less health cost on active 20% maybe even 25% but 50% is far too much.
Or why not have it consume life force considering the signets passive is all about generating life force.?
Overall the direction for this is not bad but can we get the cost for the caster balanced a bit better to the reward.
-
> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > >
> > > > > Reflect kitten you over hard.
> > > > > condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
> > > > > proj block kitten you over hard.
> > > > > no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
> > > > > fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-
> > > >
> > > > Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said :
> > > > > > > > Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
> > > > > > > What can you say about my why is axe bad ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
> > > > > About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.
> > > >
> > > > When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.
> > >
> > > not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
> > > so itssupper whammed.
> > > 1 its melee
> > > 2 its prjectile based
> > > 3 its multi hit ( retal )
> > > 4 its condi.
> > > its just asking to get kitten over
> >
> > But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
> > Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
> > Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)
> >
> > Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.
> >
> > Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
> > I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.
> >
>
> I dont want axe to ignore block/reflect.
> axe is clunky and kitten weapon, works on people that dont know how it works, since nobody uses it these days it can clap people, the moment it becomes go to, people will learn somewhat and it will be just bad again.
So a weapon is clunky because it does not work on people who know what skills to avoid like almost every other weapon in the game.... What.... how is this an argument.
> difference with GS for guard is, from what i have seen that the weapon itself is used for bursting, while axe is sustained damage.
Im pretty sure the axe is for bursting..... staff is the staple trope of sustained damage as the condition application almost never stops via auto attacks which bounce. IF staff was not a thing then maybe axe would be considered more sustain when you compare it to something like scepter but so long as staff is a thing thats not gonna be the case imo. Staff is the pentacle of sustained damage application with higher burst potential in its current state.
> reflect screws you over harder during sustained fights, fighting perma reflect guard is suffering, some elementalists have about 25%+ uptime on proj destruction combined with condi clear and it becomes quickly apparent why nobody uses axe for anything other then fun.
But this applies to all projectiles this is not a real argument who couldnt projectile reflect screw over if they are attacking with projectiles i dont understand how this is an argument. ITs called counter play against projectiles you count on the idea that people wont always have access to these things but if they happen to have it in their kit when you attack them then you obviously have a disadvantage.
> The only thing i want done to it TBH is mb reduce ammout of proj so the retal doesnt hurt so bad, and fix some not needed clunkyness.
Retaliation is a counter to mesmers in general because any hits your clones do comes back as attacks you performed thats just a standard weakness that has nothing to do only with the axe.
> like ambush gliching out, and axe 3 just spasming you in random places + make axe 3 actually hit poeple.
Like alot of the other skills, Rush, Deaths charge, Swoop, Burning speed, etc. Once again your weapon is not alone in terms of skills not always tracking properly or some times missing or bugging out.
> PS weapon being proj based doesnt make it bad ALONE.
> its all of the combine of being
> 1 condi.
> 2 melee
> 3 projectile based
> 4 multi hit
> the least they could do is reduce ammount of phant axes while keeping damage the same, and fix axe 3.
> or just rework ambush attack and have seeking axes only as a bonus from trait added to skills.
I dont think any of these things even if you put them together make a weapon bad. I think its just a simple fact that staff is easier and over loaded thus there is no reason for people to keep using the axe at the moment. Staff is safe and applies enough damage to kill majority of things with ease with much less risk involved. Most of these arguments are not really valid things as they apply to the most standard or common things such as projectiles being attached or a weapon having multi hitting skills.
The idea that a weapon is bad because some one knows what skills to look for in itself is kind of a insane argument in itself too. The idea of knowing how a weapon works is kind of key to avoid getting hit by key skills in a fight.
> EDIT 2/5 of guards GS attacks are proj based
> + the projectiles themselfs are smaller part of the damge? or am I wrong.
Projectiles on whirling wrath are low in damage if reflected. The 5 skill if reflected deals several thousand damage to the caster if they hit themselves with it. If i recall its between 700-900 ish damage per second for 10 seconds or something. so roughly between 7000-9000 damage maybe more for having someone reflect that skill onto you.
-
> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> >
> > > Reflect kitten you over hard.
> > > condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
> > > proj block kitten you over hard.
> > > no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
> > > fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-
> >
> > Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).
> >
> >
> >
> > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said:
> > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said:
> > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said :
> > > > > > Actually axe is rly not as bad as most ppl think. I think the weapons is in a good spot. Played around with it lately in case staff will be trash after nerfs.
> > > > >
> > > > > When is the last time an axe mirage kill you ?
> > > > > What can you say about my why is axe bad ?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I don't know what to say about your axe opinion. I thought it is bad too until i tried it and it worked well. When you care for your axe 2 use you don't rly get interrupted during that. Axe 3 is still an insane skill. Don't use Sage amulet with axe and the dmg is good. That was my experience at least. It was already a decent use, when now everyhting else will get nerfed axe will be even better most likely.
> > >
> > > The problem is not getting CCed during axe 2 but getting hit by aoe (cc or not)/bunch of damage + plethora of random things who pop melee.
> > > About axe 3, if an insane skill = 50% fail as long as the opponent is moving or there is some vertical ground, well, I will give you this insanity and take another.
> >
> > I don't know if you jump into the biggest aoe with it then maybe but still you can cover with dodges, it is the "burst" combo anyway for axe that you axe 2 dodge for additional clone and ambush dmg. You would still be a duel build most time you are not in big aoe teamfights anyway. All i can say is, that axe was clearly better than expected during trying. But it seems Holo is first main target for next patch maybe lets focus on that first.
> >
> > When they restart with trade off kitten and try to change Mirage Cloak even though it is not necessary then Mirages will have a bigger problem than axe anyway xD I would excavate a grave near to Chrono already if i were you.
>
> not every projectal weapon is melee, in fact none of them are as far as I know, on top of that its condi.
> so itssupper whammed.
> 1 its melee
> 2 its prjectile based
> 3 its multi hit ( retal )
> 4 its condi.
> its just asking to get kitten over
But its still not the only weapon like this in the game surprisingly
Guardian sword for example is melee but depends on some of its main damage coming from a skill that fires off rapid multi hit ranged projectiles (which can also be reflected for major punishment back to the caster. )
Even the Guardian great-sword spin technically fires off multiple projectiles during its whirling wrath skill which can be reflected back at the guardian. (though they dont do much damage)
Technically speaking mirage's axe is not the only weapon to be melee and have rapid multi hit projectiles attached to its kit and that alone is reason enough as to why it should not break the standard of its projectiles able to be countered.
Are you arguing the idea that projectiles being able to be reflected make the weapon itself totally garbage or that the projectiles should break standard and not be able to be reflected?
I dont think this projectile based/melee/ mutlit are valid reasons at all as to why someone would argue the weapon being bad based on the above things.
-
> @"Dadnir.5038" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > - First, rethink barrier, making it so that you can't stack them (because this is the root of the barrier issue in WvW and 1 of the reasons the scourge is overwhelmingly mandatory there)
> >
> > I partly agree here but i dont think thats the only issue wvw has other issues that are not just scourge barrier. Boons are out of control and anet made scourge to be the balance tool against the new boon heavy elite specs lets start there before we start anywhere else. There was no reason that every singlet utility including the heal needed to have boon corrupt that alone tells you something is flawed with how they considered their outlook on the necromancer to be going forward.
>
> True, but I was specifically talking about barrier, the boon corruption is a whole issue on it's own.
>
> > > - Third, make a choice, the necromancer was supposed to rely more on it's utility skills to deal damage than it's weapon and special mechanism. Either they focus on that point and make utilities truly reliable dps wise or they rethink the utilities and their role for the necromancer while puting damage on the weapons but they shouldn't try to keep having every skills do everything.
> >
> > I personally think its silly not to use your special mechanism when ever other profession for the most part uses theirs as a direct connection to their dps and not just on utilities I cant say i support the idea of forcing necro to depend on utilities. I think like most other professions using the special mechanism is still defiantly the way to go.
> >
>
> The issue is that whereas the other professions have defense into both their weapon and utility, the necromancer don't. You can't just say that it would be strange for the necromancer to not rely on it's special mechanism to deal damage because all other profession does when at the same time all other profession rely on utility and weapon skill for their defense when the necromancer don't.
>
> From the very beginning the necromancer's design put it in the "strange" folder. A bit stranger won't hurt him much.
This is a good point so why not just give the necormancer defensive tools on its weapons lol that seems like a better way to go at it than trying to rip the use of its special mechanism to a minimal. Alot of core weapons are already below average anyways so now would be a good time to do it in my opinion.
>
> > That said fixing oudated weapons and utility would have been good and maybe added more dependable defenses and giving up on the idea that necro must be slow and be a punching bag would have done alot for the class overall. Instead they kept necro on the idea of that it must use conditional defense which changes in effectiveness from balance to balance as people take more or less condi clear/ resistance to condis / traits that reduce ore remove movement inhibiting conditions etc.
> >
>
> I agree and at the same time I don't agree. The reason I don't agree is that ANet isn't especially bright when it come to "fixing" weapon. They just tend to add more and more things on top of what's already there. Before the weapon and utility they really need to fix the design that the necromancer need to follow. _They_ need to make choices that allow _us_ to make choices when we build. The necromancer in it's state don't allow that, almost all skills just try to do everything (from dealing damage to heal and debuff).
At the same time necromancer is one of the flew classes who sits at the lower end of all those things which is where particularly in competitive modes other professions need to be brought down to not trying to raise the necro up the other professions in terms of damage or de buffs or healing. We know that wont ever be allowed because it would make necro overly viable and competitive against some of the strongest things right now which would be seen as necro being op.
That said when it comes to dealing damage and healing at the same time thats a common trope of classes like necomancers / warlocks in a good number of games etc to be able to deal damage and also heal off a portion of that damage at the same time so i dont see an issue there. Infact if healing off of damage done was more viable (realistic/designed) i doubt you would see necromancers struggling with the use of mainly conditional defense with the lack of hard defenses. But because things like vampiric and vamp aura are fixed and not % based they are super minimal and very limited when it comes to effectiveness at their best and conditional defense is not stable enough based on the rest of the games current meta and balance. Necromancer has landed in this odd spot where its conditional defense is not stable, its self healing is over limited, and its damage is sub par from where everyone else is be it power or condition. Thats not to say it cant do damage it just wont ever ramp fast melting condis or insta kill levels of damage thats akin to 1 shot 100-0 in .8 seconds that many other professions can currently do
>
> > Conditional defense is not very viable in 2019. That idea went down hill the moment the choice was made to have things like chill and cripple no longer effect movement skills and has only picked up speed over time.
> > Weakness is RNG might work great 50% of the time and 50% of the time you take full damage anyways (fix this to not be so rng if you really want conditional defense to work.)
> >
>
> Well, conditions are overnerfed when you depend on them and overtuned when you don't. It certainly would be good to see them being more reliable but I'm pretty sure that this wouldn't be well received by professions that don't rely on them by design.
Sadly hard defenses dont change much unless you literally nerf the skill/tool itself in terms of cast, duration, cooldown, etc. A block is always a block, an evade is always going to evade, stealth is stealth etc. But conditional defenses changes in effectiveness from player to player and mob to mob its not consistently dependable like hard defenses are and where the game is now vs where it was 5-6 years ago is a massive difference.
>
> Yes, we are, again, looking at the fact that the necromancer's design philosophy is flawed and way to different from other profession's.
Or its outdated and simply needs and update to its the tools its design philosophy follows perhaps a few shackles need to be removed from things so that they might be deemed usable or things adjusted such as how weakness, fear, chill, work as conditions etc.
>
> > >
> > > The necromancer need an overall to it's design not a bunch of mindless changes that strengthen it's flaws.
> >
> > Its not a total overhaul thats needed for core and reaper only scourge
> >
>
> Here I disagree as well, scourge is exceptionally easy to fix.
> - You remove the _manifest sand shades_ proc from the skills F2-5.
> - Replace torment on _desert shroud_ tics by 1s of weakness and give it a power damage coefficient of 0.02 instead of what it is right now.
>
> Voila! The scourge's mechanism is fixed. They can even revert the delay thingy, CD splits and most of the core traits splits. The damage on the shade skills aren't "needed". If there is a lack of damage it come from the weapons and utility skills (which something that's known since far before the scourge's release).
I personally would not call this fixed i would call this useless we just went through a whole conversation about how unstable conditional defense is. Weakness kinda does not mean anything when it only has a chance to work 50% of the time. It might completely negate someones burst or it might not do a thing at all which leads to you taking full damage rng in combat situations like this needs to be removed for static stability in effectiveness Then i might at least start to some what agree with what you are trying to do.
That said you need more than just weakness procs on shade skills & barrier too if they wont be doing any realistic damage.
Just rework its f skills completely no matter what anyone says to try and fix shades in their current form no mass number of people will ever agree its the right move thats how bad the design of them is. Anet keeps trying trick after trick with these shade things and all its doing is making the spec more trash. From release its been mostly a take take take take relationship due to how controversial and problematic the shades as a whole are.
>
> > Core and reaper mostly need proper weapon updates and changes to condition if they want conditional defense to be a thing
> > - main hand dagger
> > - staff
>
> I disagree, staff is fine as is. The AA sure ould welcome an increase of it's attack speed, but overall, staff is fine.
Then you are living in the past. if you think staff is "fine" you are more than welcome to think that way but a 1s fear on a 32s cd disagrees with you.
Staff can be used yes but is it "fine" i dont think so i think its "outdated" but used because there is nothing else to use based on what you built into. Also how overly inefficient the weapon becomes without the trait investment is beyond me.
>
> > - core shroud kit
>
> It did have it's update. Again, tweeking the AA to make it more responsive is the only thing that I find would be welcome.
Needs more obviously or as you said the issues are with the core weapons one of which you think is fine its current state that i dont agree with.
> > - Slightly increase fear sources and update it to drop target and make players unable to target anyone for its applied duration.
>
> I disagree. More fear sources isn't a good thing, as for dropping the target, it would end up making fear to strong.
But taunt is fine forcing a player to target something else?
More fear sources is debatable ill give you that one but updating the condition itself should not be "too" strong considering its counterpart causes a similar effect. Fear has had more counters added to the game over time via condi cleanse, traits/runes that reduce condition duration, condi clear, resistance, ontop of stab and breakstuns.
>
> > - Remove the RNG on weakness make it a static thing and reduce applications and durations
>
> or just make it 25% damage decrease.
Maybe
>
> > - Make cripple and chill effective again against classes who can just jump at you over and over
>
> Well, make it so that it doesn't affect teleport but force a 1s additionnal cast time on other movement skills.
It never effected teleports to start with and i dont think it should, im talking leaps, rushes, dashes, etc.
I dont agree with your 1s cast time idea thats what the slow condition is for, something you think necro would have access to but does not.
-
I think this is working backwards boons are the cause for the need of corrupts and there are far more sources of boon generation in the game then there are corrupts that said i personally would have tried toning down boons first before lowering corrupts.
I can understand the target reduction on the shades though 1 person effecting 10 people is too much.
I really cant understand the choice to hit devouring darkness 2 times in a row with the nerf like that back to back. Just remove boon corruption from it all together and lode up its damage application at this point. corrupt 1 boon thats just gonna immediately be replaced by 3-4 cover boons.
If people stop playing scourge because its not effective enough (prob wont happen) but if it does happen and complaints stop then i can totally see scourge left in its garbage state like "its ok now" because complaints stopped. Which is not ok...
I dont even like scourge but i dont support the nerf of the core necromancer weapon when there are other tools that on scourge that could have been looked at to reduce wvw effectiveness instead of taking the core necromancer weapon which effects core, reaper, and scourge.
-
The way anet has been reworking things lately i think Ill keep my current GS
Lets test staff
main hand dagger reworks first?
-
> @"Nimon.7840" said:
> > @"Kulvar.1239" said:
> > Reaper is supposed to cancel high mobility with Freeze and Weakness.
Note weakness is not a part of reapers main design and kit thats part of core necro more than reaper.
>
> Does it do that?
> Hint 1: do most classes have passive condi removal?
> Hint 2: can you reliably hit something that is very fast, with very slow attacks?
> Hint 3: do these conditions reduce leap, dodge or teleport distance?
>
> Hint 4: if you answered 1 or more of these questions with "no" then why doesn't it do, what it's supposed to do? Why didn't this addressed long time ago?
Reaper at its base will not do this chill durations are too low now (with the cold shoulder trait increasing them) after several nerfs that came from early beta when chill was actually a threat in pvp and on top of that dealt just enough damage to make condi reaper ramp nicely and provided one of the best thematic traits i had ever seen in the game (dont think they have added anything yet that wow'ed me like the original deathly chill.)
That said the only way to make chill stick to people now is to over invest in it through chilling darkness, and runes that provide additional chill duration. If you do this chill does hinder mobility on several classes but not all of them. However doing this means a loss in damage, sustain, life force generation, and possibly boons (might)
hitting some one with reaper 5 and assuming they stand in the aoe for its full duration with base reaper ends up being like 5-6 seconds of chill in total less if they have traits that reduce condition duration or hindering mobility conditions. Ideally chill is not effective unless its used on another necro or an ele everything else can kind of ignore if it wants too.
-
> @"Dadnir.5038" said:
> > @"anduriell.6280" said:
> > Necro is fine.
> > It already had an overhaul to core and reaper shroud and now to shades to hit even more targets .
> >
> > Necro is mandatory for raids.
> >
> > I don’t understand the whining. Learn to play with your class.
>
> That might be because you call WvW zergs, "raids".
>
> The issue of the necromancer is that it is imbalanced, overperforming in it's niche and performing poorly outside of it. It didn't have any overhaul to core, reaper or scourge, Anet just added more issues than necessary to an already flawed design. Transforming shroud to be a 10 seconds burst with a 10 second CD in order to catch up to other profession's DPS was a stupid idea not an "overhaul". Desperatly clinging onto the area denial of the shades and nerfing the quality of life of the players wasn't an "overhaul" either.
>
> The necromancer need to have balanced performance in all area of the game, it doesn't need to be mandatory in WvW zergs. And in any way it always was part of this niche meta, it didn't needed to be even more proficient in it thanks to the scourge.
>
> The necromancer need ANet to:
> - First, rethink barrier, making it so that you can't stack them (because this is the root of the barrier issue in WvW and 1 of the reasons the scourge is overwhelmingly mandatory there)
I partly agree here but i dont think thats the only issue wvw has other issues that are not just scourge barrier. Boons are out of control and anet made scourge to be the balance tool against the new boon heavy elite specs lets start there before we start anywhere else. There was no reason that every singlet utility including the heal needed to have boon corrupt that alone tells you something is flawed with how they considered their outlook on the necromancer to be going forward.
> - Second, give up on the shades as an area denial tool (The utilities and weapons already offer more than enough of that).
I support this 100%
> - Third, make a choice, the necromancer was supposed to rely more on it's utility skills to deal damage than it's weapon and special mechanism. Either they focus on that point and make utilities truly reliable dps wise or they rethink the utilities and their role for the necromancer while puting damage on the weapons but they shouldn't try to keep having every skills do everything.
I personally think its silly not to use your special mechanism when ever other profession for the most part uses theirs as a direct connection to their dps and not just on utilities I cant say i support the idea of forcing necro to depend on utilities. I think like most other professions using the special mechanism is still defiantly the way to go.
That said fixing oudated weapons and utility would have been good and maybe added more dependable defenses and giving up on the idea that necro must be slow and be a punching bag would have done alot for the class overall. Instead they kept necro on the idea of that it must use conditional defense which changes in effectiveness from balance to balance as people take more or less condi clear/ resistance to condis / traits that reduce ore remove movement inhibiting conditions etc.
Conditional defense is not very viable in 2019. That idea went down hill the moment the choice was made to have things like chill and cripple no longer effect movement skills and has only picked up speed over time.
Weakness is RNG might work great 50% of the time and 50% of the time you take full damage anyways (fix this to not be so rng if you really want conditional defense to work.)
>
> The necromancer need an overall to it's design not a bunch of mindless changes that strengthen it's flaws.
Its not a total overhaul thats needed for core and reaper only scourge
Core and reaper mostly need proper weapon updates and changes to condition if they want conditional defense to be a thing
- main hand dagger
- staff
- core shroud kit
- various core traits
- Slightly increase fear sources and update it to drop target and make players unable to target anyone for its applied duration.
- Remove the RNG on weakness make it a static thing and reduce applications and durations
- Make cripple and chill effective again against classes who can just jump at you over and over
- for the love of all that is necrotic and ghostly update spectral armor its almost like it was forgotten with the removal of the spectral mastery (last gasp) update.
- rework scourge entirely
-
> @"miguelsil.6324" said:
> > @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:
> > Hi again,
> >
> > First off, really enjoying reading through all the feedback. While we don’t have time to respond to each individual post, we wanted to respond to a few of the points that have been brought up multiple times.
> >
> > * Nerfing only Scourge will result in boons and cleanses being too strong
> >
> > This is a real concern and definitely something we thought about when deciding on which changes to make for this update. What it really comes down to is the question of how long we want to chase our own tails right now. If we nerf Scourge, then maybe we need to nerf boons and cleanses, then maybe we need to nerf conditions and corrupts, and on and on we go. Now this is one of the goals of the future patch, but that is going to take longer than the time we have for this balance cycle.
> >
> > The alternative here is to just make no changes until the future update is ready, but we don’t think this is the right thing to do. We know Scourge is a problem, so we’re going to make an adjustment in the short-term. If it does end up that Scourge was keeping things in check and those things start to overperform, we do have opportunity to make slight adjustments out of the normal balance cadence, but ideally we want to spend as much time as possible working on the patch where we are trying to address everything at once.
> >
> > * Why not do the proposed PvP splits in WvW as well, for the sake of roamers?
> >
> > The PvP changes are targeted specifically at builds that are overperforming in PvP. Looking specifically at roaming, we don’t see anything as too egregious. Certainly everything is extremely powerful, but that is the longer-term thing we’re trying to address. For now we’re trying to balance things around the existing power level while we look ahead to addressing the issue that is the existing power level. If we brought the PvP changes to WvW right now, we would probably need to do additional changes to a bunch of roaming builds. Similar to the Scourge changes this is something that we thought about, but we want to put more time into the future update instead. These changes make sense for both competitive modes in the long-term, but now may not be the right time to make them in WvW. We’ll talk about this a bit more internally, but the main concern right now would be pushing these things out of viability instead of bringing them back in line.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Dear Cal, regarding roaming you need to have a look at the classes / builds that can safely one shot and then run away successfully with stealth / teleports /constant evades due to class mechanic / invulns while dealling damage (sounds like 2 specific classses i know) that being said a full zerker warrior having more survival than a full bunker class need to be addressed also, either make it so that the healling escalates from stats ( healling power ) or nerf the stances ( TWO invuln stances... ) to be like 50% damaged reduction instead, warrior should be able to do that much damage in full zerk but never have that crazy survival tools at all.
>
> thief/mesmer/boonsbeast/warrior and holo are better at one shots and dealling with outnumbered fights to run away and these builds need to be addressed.
>
> Even core guardian can one shot people but not have the survival or GTFO tools if it fails its a free bag.
>
> before someone says im defending my main class check the video below.
>
>
To be honest i consider core guardian one of the best if not the best balanced class in the entire game. Depending on how you build it is usually pretty weighted on one side and light on the side you dont opt into. Its also got a very effective kit.
Only when something like firebrand lands on it does it become something that over performs.
If all core classes were this strong and balanced then elites wouldn't need to be so power creeped and they could do what anet originally said they were going to do which is just provide a different way to play.
-
> @"bravan.3876" said:
> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
>
> > Reflect kitten you over hard.
> > condi cleanse kitten you over hard.
> > proj block kitten you over hard.
> > no chaos = not very sustainable = dies faster = dont have time to wait out condis.
> > fire ele, any firebrand, any thief, warrior, holo. -.-
>
> Nothing of this is axe specific you have the same problem with all projectils/ condi builds and you can play chaos with axe. The only thing rly gets harder is the Warrior matchup (and Corewarrior is kind of build to be good vs Condimesmer in general).
>
>
>
This is what i was thinking how can one complain about projectile reflects/blocks when that effects every projectile including staff projectiles which kind of negates the whole purpose as to calling them out.
I dont understand how someone can be so justified to tell me i dont know anything about x profession and should not respond by someone who is ideally passively suggesting that their weapons projectiles should not be reflectable or blockable per is the standard for most projectiles in the game. As well as the fact that they dont have time to wait out conditions while playing one of the best high pressure high application condition set ups the game has to offer in competitive right now. This is a bit mind numbing to me.
Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP
in Player vs. Player
Posted
> @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:
> > > @"Lighter.5631" said:
> > > Whats the point of nerfing warrior's cunning, it's not meta and it's core war
> >
> > Because in conjunction with https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Charge_(warrior_skill), people can create strikes with 50% +25% = 75% damage mod, which can create 1HKO situations with skills like Eviscerate. And then because the Warrior is so tanky, he actually can sustain you while he waits for the stars to align, as he attempts to do this over and over again, until it actually works. Then in that case, you've lost the combat to a rando 15k+ strike that was dealt by a half bunker sustain class. It's too much.
> >
> > I personally like the idea behind the mechanic flow of how Tactic Core War works, but the Warrior's Cunning trait should have looked more like: +25% vs. Barrier and +10% vs. above 90% health, to begin with. I actually hope they don't nerf it as much as they plan in the patch notes. It'll be a worthless trait with too low of enhancement values.
>
> it still meme.
> i would get away with 50% to 25%, but 50% to 10% shave on a non meta feels non sense not to mention barrier isn't popularized on all classes
Thats exactly why it shouldnt be that high in the first place because barrier is not popularized on all classes in most cases a lot of classes dont generate enough barrier on their own to be worthy of that much of damage increase to chew through it. IT would be better to just make the trait have your damage or a set number of strikes ignore barrier every so often even than to have it be tuned up to just a raw damage increase and it would still achieve the same effect which is to have a moderate counter to barrier in general not to have it so hitting someone with 200 points of barrier makes your 3k axe throw become a 9k axe throw through stacked damage mods.
Overall it should be more like do increased damage to targets above a health threshold 10% or less even and just said something like "Burst attacks bypass barrier and do 10% more damage to foes with barrier.
Then you make sure there is an exception so that if you deal fatal damage to the persons hp even if barrier is covering them they go down anyways.
Give a few more classes traits similar to this maybe 1 or 2 more where they have something that allows their damage to just bypass barrier all together in short moments. and Barrier has a few classes that can counter it.
A 50% damage increase that can not only apply to the barrier was not a good way of trying to solve that issue. IF the 50% bonus only applied to barrier value then only the bonus damage above 90% hp would be the thing in question and 25% in general is just too much period.