ZDragon.3046
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Posts posted by ZDragon.3046
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If a dodge removes something that would normally hinder a player say
- stun
- immobilize
- chill
- etc
Then it should have a cost as those kinds of effect should not be able to just be brushed off with little cost
IF its a offensive ability that happens on dodge it should not be an issue to keep your dodging ability as you are using what would be a defensive tool to aid in your attack. In most cases offensive dodge a abilities are fine only in a few niche cases where the effects can be triggered in rapid succession say daredevil/mirage really be kept in check as they can dodge far more frequently. But thats more of a numbers thing not removing their ability to dodge.
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> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > reaper is good for bossing
> > scourge is good for tagging
> > That said necromancer is slow. if your zerg is moving fast i dont really recommend necro
> > Necro of any kind wont be good at tagging unless you are at the front or slightly ahead of the zerg. Being 10-15 steps behind the commander depending on how big the zerg is and your tag attempts wont count. You need to do so much damage to a mob for it to count
> >
> > I generally dont run necro through lab for tagg/zerg/farming
> >
> > For bossing/doors at least though i mean you cant go wrong.
> >
> > If your group is on the move a lot i recommend thief (Daredevil with dash) with short bow and staff or core theif with short-bow and dagger/dagger, take as much bouncing stuff and aoe stuff as you can Dagger storm etc.
>
> Mounts exist. "slow moving" is not the hindrance it once was.
In alot of cases once you get in combat it can be rough to get out of combat which results in you missing alot of kills while trying to mount up. Its better just to have higher mobility and stay at the front of the group then to try and just mount every time.
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> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:
> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:
> > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.
> > > > >
> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:
> > > > > > > I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
> > > > > > > What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
> > > > > > What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.
> > >
> > > If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized.
> >
> > And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.
> > >
> > > Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving.
> >
> > Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > A soul beast does not permanently lose that AI how ever they have the option to bring the pet back with full hp and cleansing all of its conditions. If it was a perma bond I would totally agree with you. But thats not how it works. Its more gain than loss as the soul beast is not forced to bond and all the functions from base ranger are still there + the bond benefit when needed.
> > >
> > > Whenever the soulbeast melds they are no longer in control of their pet and can't swap those skills. They could already heal and cleanse their pet using pet swap. I don't see the problem.
> >
> > Pet swap generally takes much longer and should the pet die before swapping the cd to swap pets is considerably increased. vs a soul beast fuse which suffers no cd penality should the counter play be to kill the pet "not that its already hard to do" In short there is a punishment if the pet should die before you swap it. There is not one for reviving it by fusing.
> >
> > the only thing ill give you in regards to soul beast is that its true once fused they no longer have a Pet AI which can be seen as some what of trade off. As i said many times before i personally think thats not enough weight of a trade off but you are free to your own opinon (this is the end of this conversation regarding soul beast )
> >
> > >
> > > Similarly is whenever the tempest overloads their attunement has an increased cooldown. They aren't like weaver unravel where going back to core is temporary since the base skills are perma changed.
> > >
> > > You don't have to be forced to use a tradeoff.
> >
> > Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
> > > > > > > Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'
> > > > >
> > > > > Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.
> > > >
> > > > Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago
> > > > Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.
> > > > Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill
> > >
> > > That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.
> > I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject)
> >
> > > > Daredevil loses steal for swipe
> > > No. Deadeye loses steal for mark. Swipe is still an instant ranged shadowstep, that is now unblockable, and they have an entire extra bar of endurance.
> >
> > ??? With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability.
> > > > Mirage (loses litterally nothing)
> > >
> > > Go play wvw.
> > ???
> > Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.
> > Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"
> > The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs.
> >
> > You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly.
> >
> > In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them."
> >
> > Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling.
> >
> > I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them.
> >
> > TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :)
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> if you dont feel like having discusion then dont start it? you are the one that brought " nerf mirage OP " into "chrono is garbage fix it " conversation.
Never said the word nerf or OP in my original post dont come here telling lies. you cant speak truthfully o respectfully dont speak to me at all.
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for what its worth it only takes 1 or 2 players out of the whole bunch to shut down his whole mechanic (firebrands and mesmers especially) as both have domes that can reflect ever single one of his projectiles. In the case of firebrand the dome can be used multiple times at the cost of giving up your own dps to place the dome every few seconds from your tome.
As far as why people skip him. He is generally not worth it. Out of most bosses in the lab. he takes the most time and in the time it takes a group to fight him you could get 2x -3x the rewards just doing another lap around him in less time than it takes to kill him. At least last i checked. If the zerg is large i imagine his hp still scales pretty heavily which would make zerg runs even longer despite the decreased hp. People pretty much mainly run lab for the loot. So long as you can get more loot rewards by lapping around him over fighting him people wont bother fighting him.
Its not that its too hard it just takes longer and feels like more of a chore when people just want to farm. its not worth stopping farming progress in most cases.
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> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:
> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.
> > >
> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:
> > > > > I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
> > > > > What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.
> > > >
> > > > You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
> > > > What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?
> > >
> > > Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.
> >
> > Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.
>
> If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized.
And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one.
>
> >
> > So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.
>
> Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving.
Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at.
>
> >
> > A soul beast does not permanently lose that AI how ever they have the option to bring the pet back with full hp and cleansing all of its conditions. If it was a perma bond I would totally agree with you. But thats not how it works. Its more gain than loss as the soul beast is not forced to bond and all the functions from base ranger are still there + the bond benefit when needed.
>
> Whenever the soulbeast melds they are no longer in control of their pet and can't swap those skills. They could already heal and cleanse their pet using pet swap. I don't see the problem.
Pet swap generally takes much longer and should the pet die before swapping the cd to swap pets is considerably increased. vs a soul beast fuse which suffers no cd penality should the counter play be to kill the pet "not that its already hard to do" In short there is a punishment if the pet should die before you swap it. There is not one for reviving it by fusing.
the only thing ill give you in regards to soul beast is that its true once fused they no longer have a Pet AI which can be seen as some what of trade off. As i said many times before i personally think thats not enough weight of a trade off but you are free to your own opinon (this is the end of this conversation regarding soul beast )
>
> Similarly is whenever the tempest overloads their attunement has an increased cooldown. They aren't like weaver unravel where going back to core is temporary since the base skills are perma changed.
>
> You don't have to be forced to use a tradeoff.
Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement.
>
> >
> > > > > I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
> > > > > Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.
> > > > >
> > > > > In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.
> > > > >
> > > > > It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.
> > > >
> > > > Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.
> > > >
> > > > By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'
> > >
> > > Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.
> >
> > Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago
> > Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.
> > Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill
>
> That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.
I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject)
> > Daredevil loses steal for swipe
> No. Deadeye loses steal for mark. Swipe is still an instant ranged shadowstep, that is now unblockable, and they have an entire extra bar of endurance.
??? With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability.
> > Mirage (loses litterally nothing)
>
> Go play wvw.
???
Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.
Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"
The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs.
You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly.
In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them."
Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling.
I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them.
TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :)
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reaper is good for bossing
scourge is good for tagging
That said necromancer is slow. if your zerg is moving fast i dont really recommend necro
Necro of any kind wont be good at tagging unless you are at the front or slightly ahead of the zerg. Being 10-15 steps behind the commander depending on how big the zerg is and your tag attempts wont count. You need to do so much damage to a mob for it to count
I generally dont run necro through lab for tagg/zerg/farming
For bossing/doors at least though i mean you cant go wrong.
If your group is on the move a lot i recommend thief (Daredevil with dash) with short bow and staff or core theif with short-bow and dagger/dagger, take as much bouncing stuff and aoe stuff as you can Dagger storm etc.
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> @"Axl.8924" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > @"Leonidrex.5649"
> > You are going off topic the main topic is trade offs
> > The topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.
> > Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones
> >
> > Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.
> >
> > Im not going to argue specific nerfs or skills between classes with you (most of your points in that recent post are invalid anyways) because several other professions contain similar skills or skills that provide similar value and because thats not the topic of this post
> >
> > We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.
> > Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.
> >
>
> I got a question for you: How is having that damage bonus for warriors to enemy players with barriers good for the game? this just makes them even more overpowered no? so instead of doing whatever they were doing before they would be doing 50% more damage.
> @"Axl.8924" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > @"Leonidrex.5649"
> > You are going off topic the main topic is trade offs
> > The topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.
> > Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones
> >
> > Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.
> >
> > Im not going to argue specific nerfs or skills between classes with you (most of your points in that recent post are invalid anyways) because several other professions contain similar skills or skills that provide similar value and because thats not the topic of this post
> >
> > We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.
> > Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.
> >
>
> I got a question for you: How is having that damage bonus for warriors to enemy players with barriers good for the game? this just makes them even more overpowered no? so instead of doing whatever they were doing before they would be doing 50% more damage.
Considering Barrier is a new mechanic and there is currently nothing to counter it i think its good for the game. The issue that i have is that trait is that its overkill.
25% against targets over 90% when a critical single axe 2 causes your hp to tank massively. That part of the trait alone another player is massive. As a damage mod its just a bit too high if you ask me. Especially on core warrior which hits the hardest most constantly more so than the elites.
As far as bonus damage against foes with barrier goes I was playing with it as tactics, strength, berserker last night in free arena just being silly. quite a few times I downed weavers by throwing an axe which hits them for 8-9k because they have a few hundred points of barrier. I get what anet is trying to do with it and the idea is good the percentage values are just a bit high. Keep in mind this is also on a patch that was focused mainly on wvw changes and combating scourges which a warrior will want to do from ranged with say rifle or bow which generally wont hit as hard. So i cant kinda see why they are so high... but its still a bit "too high"
Edit: "I have a bad habit of getting off topic but this is for chrono has nothing to do with warrior or any barrier. If you want to talk warrior or barrier we can have the conversation in a proper thread or in pm. But we should focus on the aspects of chrono here."
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> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:
> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.
>
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:
> > > I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
> > > What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.
> >
> > You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
> > What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?
>
> Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.
Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.
So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.
A soul beast does not permanently lose that AI how ever they have the option to bring the pet back with full hp and cleansing all of its conditions. If it was a perma bond I would totally agree with you. But thats not how it works. Its more gain than loss as the soul beast is not forced to bond and all the functions from base ranger are still there + the bond benefit when needed.
No i dont agree that everything needs to be crippling but thats where difference of opinions comes into play. I if you think the temporary loss of the pet AI is the loss soul beast takes then i would say the trade off is far too light when weighed against many other professions. Tempest is also one of the rare examples that does not follow the flow of everyone else and its not without saying that there is a possibility that it could get changed too.
> > > I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
> > > Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.
> > >
> > > In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.
> > >
> > > It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.
> >
> > Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.
> >
> > By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'
>
> Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.
Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago
Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.
Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill
Daredevil loses steal for swipe
Mirage (loses litterally nothing)
Druids pets lose some stats (which honestly just seems like a lazy quick change i hope they revisit it with a real mechanic at some point)
Soul beast by your personal opinion loses the pet AI but only when merged for a short period of time so im not so sure it really is weighted properly just like firebrand and holo are likely not weighted heavy enough in terms of the trade for the gain.
>
> * For tempest, mirage and soulbeast where the benefit and drawback happen simultaneously there is no required change to f skills. They can play identically to core if they wish.
Incorrect tempest technically still has a core mechanic that effects the f skill bar if its not up front
Soul beast is debatable based on what you said earlier
Mirage gets no pass sorry. Facts are facts nothing on the profession bar changes in anyway.
> * For daredevil and druid where something is always in addition to core they have their core mechanic (steal and pet) reduced while retaining its functionally (shadowstep and AI)
This makes a major difference having 1200 range initiation tool and a 600 range one is massive. Many classes cannot hit a target beyond 600-900 range.
> * For holosmith the drawback is dependent on how much you abuse the fact you gained 5 skills for 1 while retaining all your other f skills
Once again i said i think this is too light of a trade off i never said all of them were balanced but all professions should have one.
> * For scrapper, who got to keep the majority of their skills at all times, the drawback is changing how they approach survivability.
This is not true.
>
> Chrono got the scrapper treatment. Swapping only one f skill wasn't enough. Both also had more defensive abilities, and the latter had significantly higher power damage than core. So instead of losing vitality and gaining conditional barrier, chrono lost self-shatter/power damage and kept conditional reduced cooldown/high power traits. Survivability/power damage was replaced with survivability/power damage.
>
> The problem is in the execution. A scrapper doesn't have to constantly use its f-skills, or specific utilities/traits. It simply attacks through whatever method it sees fit and reduces its tradeoff.
What kind of nonsense is this? Ive never not seen a engi of any kind thats not using its F-skills.
Also why do we keep comparing one of the weakest specs in the entire game to what ideally was one of the strongest?
That seems a bit improper to me that you roughly going "well scrapper this and that" when scrapper has been pretty invalid for the longest time when compared to chrono was has been relevant up till its recent change.
Even now chrono still has a high place in pve vs scrapper which is still not viable for most situations. It has no identity.
Ill move back to the main topic which was chrono trade offs and meeting in the middle keep in mind when anet thinks trade offs they think profession bar those f skills.
you can talk about all the gains in other areas you like but something on that bar still needs to change thats the standard by general means.
-
> > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261"
> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:
> I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.
> What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.
You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.
What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?
We cant really argue the loss of one traitline or another because this is something that all elite specs are subject to should to take any one of them on any profession.
Thats the standard that makes the trait portion balanced ever profession and elite spec is held to the rule of only 2 core lines should you take an elite one.
This leaves play styles which comes down to personal taste and should not be a factor in this and the profession mechanic itself which has already been listed by factual evidence as of the game to this day proving that mirage for example has no loss there compared to its core variation that is base mesmer.
> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.
> Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.
>
> In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.
>
> It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.
Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.
By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.
-
> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > @"Leonidrex.5649"
> > You are going off topic the main topic is trade offs
> > The topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.
> > Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones
> >
> > Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.
> >
> > Im not going to argue specific nerfs with you because thats not the topic of this post
> >
> > We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.
> > Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.
> >
>
> im allergic to kitten is what i am.
> I dont see these developers pulling anything acceptable with chrono.
Thats why there needs to be well structured conversation.
Devs dont pay attention to the cat comments. My guess would be that they are also allergic to it. ;)
-
@"Leonidrex.5649"
You are going off topic the main topic is trade offs
The topic was what would you do to make have chrono meet in the middle.
Most of chorno is dead flack lead back to not being able to shatter without clones
Thus my suggestion is to restore some of that ability which im sure alot of mesmer players would generally like to see happen but its clear we cant go back to 100% how the old one was. I would love to have lesser life force cost and a passive spectral armor at 50% hp again but thats never coming back due to anets standard of trade offs.
Im not going to argue specific nerfs or skills between classes with you (most of your points in that recent post are invalid anyways) because several other professions contain similar skills or skills that provide similar value and because thats not the topic of this post
We can continue the conversation ontopic that or not at all.
Its clear you are passionate about mesmer / mirage / chorno which is fine. But you arguments are misguided and lacking in factual information or perhaps understanding of what im writing out.
-
> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:
> > > You do realize that Full Counter can be interrupted right? It doesn't block the hit, it just reduces the damage from it to 0, pops some evade frames, then damages/dazes people that are close by. If the original hit had CC on it that connects before the evade frames start then FC gets interrupted.
> >
> > what... no thats not true lol (cant be... ive never seen this happen)
> >
> > The only way that happens is if a cc hits you that does not deal strike damage as in necro warhorn 4 for example which causes a daze but does not deal a strike. This removes the free stab you get on using FC
> >
> > Now at this point if you get hit with a 2nd cc FC will be interupted
> >
> > Your situation is much more rare as you need 2 cc's to hit at almost the exact some time which is incredibly hard to do.
> > Even if your example is true what cc do you know is fast enough to follow up after landing a strike thats going to proc FC that will hit you before evade frames trigger (ive never EVER seen fc get interrupted once its triggered into the counter attack)
> >
> > The only attacks that can land a strike against FC and cause it to be interrupted is an attack that corrupts or strips boons at the same time. in other words another spell breaker using a cc on you can interupt your full counter but only because spell breaker has a trait that strips your stab when they hit you with a cc. Your stab is being stripped before the cc is being applied which results in an interrupt
> >
> > FC is only legit counter interupted by things like
> > - necro corrupts
> > - mesmer arcane thievery (followed by a cc)
> > - other spellbreakers cc attacks.
> >
> > In any other situation FC procs and you get the evades period there is no getting interrupted once the proc animation starts unless you interrupt it yourself with a weapon stow or dodge.
>
> spellbreaker CC attacks have to CONTROL target to strip boon, so if you have stability you dont get controlled thus you dont get to have boons removed from you.
> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dispelling_Force
> Does not trigger when negated by Stability.
Because that explains how full counter can interupt me when i have stability
There is nothing that stops dispelling force from triggering other than not being hit with the cc at all. Boons are stripped in most cases in the order in which they were applied if stab is the only boon or is the oldest boon on your bar Dispelling force will remove it in near the same instance the cc is applied. Granted the boon strip is still before the cc effect is applied its just ultra light speed fast.
This is now tether pulls you if stab is on you but its the only boon on you.
> personally i never had FC interrupted, but I suspect that 2 unblockable attacks in the same frame could have done it, or mb bugged CC like holo shockwave/plb.
Unblockable attacks do not pierce through full counter as it is a skill that soaks any incoming damage strike damage regardless if that attack is unblockable or not.
If it worked as a standard block it means that unblockable attacks would not trigger the counter attack.
Just like when you hit a mesmer with an unblockable attack while they are holding illusionary counter. The mesmer does not stop holding the counter skill, they instead continue to try and block the damage while taking the damage and without procing the counter attack.
The only way to interup full counter is to
1: strip or remove the stability with a skill that does not perform a strike (necro warhorn 4, arcane thivery, etc) and then hit them with a cc after that (even if that one performs a strike)
2: Corrupt the stability granted in to fear which ends the full counter stance in general thus meaning no counter attack.
3: hit them with 2 cc attacks in such a close time frame that the game basically registers them as a single attack that cc's twice which would be rather rare in my opinion. This would be the most unlikely case.
Note a theif steal trained with slight of hand and bountiful theft can also interrupt it as the boon stability will always be stolen before the daze is applied.
> but those ground kockback effect could pull it off too, ele and guardian have them.
This would not work unless you did number 1 from above first
>
> the problem with SPB is that it has too much dmg, Tetther is 10% dmg buff with extra might generation.
Core warrior has more damage though
The only real issue with the tether is the rapid might generation = rapid healing and endurance generation
> pure strike is 7% dmg on crits.
This is not a big deal
> loss aversion is extra damage on every CC you land.
Several Other classes have on hit or cc traits that do vastly more damage how is it not a problem there.
> so you get evades + sustain + boonrip + alot of damage, all into 1 tree.
evades dont come from this tree that comes from the strength line along with a large portion of the healing
The damage is less than core warrior and arguably higher than berserker damage (which should not be a thing ill say) imo berserker should be hitting far harder than both core and spell breaker for the massive loss of defense.
Still core warriors have far greater sustain, roughly the same number of evades, and higher damage due to having optional lvl 3 burst.
If you have not fought a good strength tactics warrior yet you will see just how much more damage they do to you than spell breaker does. but still even before that core warrior always hit harder. Spell breaker just offers a bit more flexible defense and more fluid pressure especially against the magical themed classes "hints the name spell breaker"
-
> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > What it should have as trade offs.
> > > > > > - no distortion
> > > > > > - no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What should be returned
> > > > > > - power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones
> > > > > >
> > > > > > done.
> > > > > > mirage should have a similar ^ to this also
> > > > >
> > > > > I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.
> > > > > f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.
> > > > >
> > > > > also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp
> > > >
> > > > Well i dont think it was really fair from the outside perspective that you could use powerful tool like the f4 to get your initial burst twice without any resource cost. That to me is very clunky and very unfair.
> > > >
> > > > To be honest with you mirage should out right not have distortion either its silly that mirage can chain its evades and various skills + distortion to be invulnerable for literally 4-8 seconds while being able to do full damage un interrupted.
> > > >
> > > > The OP asked to meet in the middle this is my idea of meeting in the middle.
> > > > Restore instant shatters on f1-f3 but not f4
> > > >
> > > > That was always the biggest complaint everyone made was the shatters im not sure why people are going into the idea of a whole class rework now or looking at various other skills that were never part of the inital argument that made the spec "dead" to people. It was always about the shatters not being instant with 0 resource.
> > > >
> > > > Lets not forget chrono is still pretty heavily used in pve and in raids and still has very strong dps in pve. I most certainly wouldnt say its dead.
> > > > if you want it to be less clunky fix the main complaint "within reason" which was having the power to shatter with no clones.
> > >
> > > f4 is still kitten and clunky, people LITERARLY use skill that spawns 2 clones to use it. that preety much shows how bad it is, if you remove disort from mirage you can preety much delete the spec form pvp, but thats what people want, isnt it ?
> > > and you dont even get to pressure people in that 4-8s, why? becouse you lose all clones, and as condi, damage ramps up and depends on ambushes so you dont get the damage that way, and as power, damage comes from GS burst that has cooldown, so you throw it once, that thats IT, you dontget to use it more then once in that 4-8s invulnerability.
> >
> > LOL this is clearly whats called frustration typing you took none of what i said and applied a proper reply to it. You meshed everything and anything into a single response that makes no sense.
> >
> > People dont want chrono removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay
> > - anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec (which it did not have)
> >
> > People dont want mirage removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay
> > - mirage also lacks a "realistic" trade off and can just be seen as a total upgrade without real loss when going from mesmer to mirage.
> > - You can argue the dodge distance though when you put that against power to not be interrupted while evading , evading under cc, and the additional condi pressure along side utilities like drop target..... it really hardly seems like there is one.
> >
> > Its not secret that mesmer skips balance patches frequently and is usually one of the last to the party when it comes down to getting toned down. It feels more personal probably but thats not really everyone else's fault. If being viable means be unbalanced and superior in a number of ways against the majority of professions then well you should get use to people demanding you not be viable anymore.
> >
> > I really dont know what else to tell you.
> >
>
> Ah mesmer hater, havent seen one of those in a while.
This is being passive agressive.
> You said every elite spec has a trade off, ? what? chrono is literarly the only elitespec that has this. most of them have "fake" tradeoffs that get fixed by the traits in the tree itself. Like -vitality on scraper that simply gets barier for dealing damage getting back what he "loses".
This is not eve related trade offs deal with the profession mechanic not specificly key traits you thoughts are miss placed here
> SPB that loses 1 adrenaline bar but in return he only uses 1 bar for skills always making spaming burst easy, on top of boonrip,sustain, extra evade/block, cc, and immense damage buffs.
Here you actually get it right to an extent
This makes a difference when trying to trigger other traits Berserker power, Adrenal heal, Cleansing IRE, that you could generally get max stacks for using all three bars it now limits you to gaining 1 stack at a time
This is kind of a big deal.
As far as using burst you call it spammy but rally that changes nothing the cooldowns dont change on burst from core to spell breaker.
I dont see how boon strip is relevant here
> and go away with this mesmer never gets nerf kitten literarly every single patch that I have seen had mesmer nerfs in them, meanwhile warrior/guard/holo are utterly broken in pvp and go untouched. guard overperforming as always too, buffs for them i guess.
Guardian at its core is fine
Only firebrand is over-performing and thats the only point where I will some what agree with you.
Everyone else has had far more nerfs trust me.
Most of mesmers nerfs are also often targeted in wrong areas on sometimes what seems to be on purpose. Such as nerfing the power strike damage on a weapon where its power strikes are already weak because its a condition weapon instead of balancing its condition. This is not a nerf when you use that weapon for condition anyways. It sounds like a nerf on paper when it realistically makes no difference.
An example of mesmer being late to balance.
Scepter on mesmer got nerfed "its trash now" is what everyone said when confusing images got balanced (Despite people still using it heavily to this day lol)
Lets not forget necro secepter was similar in regards to having high power striking damage on a condition weapon which was promptly nerfed loooooong ago. (As i said mesmer is late to the party)
> guess what, spec shouldnt have a tradeoff -.- , tradeoff for taking elite is that you dont have 1 core tree, I took mirage, I dont get to have domination/illusion/chaos or whatever thats the tradeoff.
First of all trade offs are never related to the traitlines like that they are related to generally the profession mechanic aka the f1 -f5 buttons.
Mesmer f1 -f4 > Chrono pre patch same f1 - f4 + f5 with literally no changes
In other words there is no trade off
As i said before i can agree that the removal of some shatters requiring clones such as the f1 -f3 those should not require you to have clones to use imo (you will prob skip right over this in your reply)
> since you not gonna read what I wrote anyways at the very least give me answear to this
alright
> "anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec" -> your words.
> give me trade off for every single elite spec.
> start with spellbreaker,firebrand and go from there.
## Warrior
**Spellbreaker -** You are locked to lvl 1 burst meaning all of your burst are permanently weaker and you cannot stack burst traits as rapidly
**Berserker -** You can no longer use burst outside of berserker rage Berserker rage requires you to store 30 points or full adrenaline . All burst in berserker rage are level 1 burst
## Guardian
**Firebrand -** Your instant cast virtues are replaced with tomes that hold powerful skills You no longer have the ability to use weapon skills while using tomes and all skills have cast times (this is a bit over tuned though as i said i agree that firebrand is currently over tuned and can be toned down a good bit.)
**Dragon Hunter -** Your instant cast virtues are replaced with new skills. They are more powerful but do have activation times and depending on the situation less effective than the core virtues. Spear of justice for example is often dodged due to its cast time and obvious tell animation.
Do note as a mesmer player (i assume) who loves the idea of instant cast shatters with 0 clones you should under stand the value of how strong the "F skills" can be when they are able to be used as instant cast.
## Necromancer
**Reaper -** Shroud is now locked to melee range and life force cost is increased lowering the defense of the shroud mechanic while increasing its offensive power in melee only.
**Scourge -** You no longer have a shroud at all and shade skills consume life force directly. If a shade is summoned skills do not work around you.
## Ranger
**Druid -** You pet has decreased stats compared to normal (this one is a bit boring to me.) I would have rather seen them lose the pet all together for more supportive nature / celestial skills on the profession bar.
**Soul Beast -** Like mirage lacks a real trade off imo. I would like to see them locked to 1 pet at any given time which allows them to focus the bond with that pet that they merge with.
## Mesmer
**Chronomancer -** Distortion becomes Continuum split. Your shatters are now unique and require clones to activate (i feel this was too much.) Just the replacement of distortion and making it so that it alone only would require a clone would have been enough.
**Mirage -** You no longer roll when you dodge??? (see how this gose off the "f skill path" unlike everyone else) As far as F skills nothing changes. Aside from not being interrupted and rolling when you dodge its pure gain and no loss. when it comes to the profession mechanic (similar to soul beast)
## Revenant
**Herald -** Ancient Echo is replaced with Facet of Chaos (this was not always the case though) Granted rev was released as a partly unfinished class and has slowly been getting fixed up to standard it still has a long way to go. Still the trade off is there.
**Renegade -** Ancient Eco is replaced with "Citadel Orders" granting new skills
In other words they give up the option for instant bonus effects and energy restoration for new skills that dont produce any energy restoration if anything it simply increases the energy drain for using them.
## Elementalist
**Tempest -** is still more of a free upgrade at the moment but if you are really going to complain about it be my guest. Its trade offs really don't show until after they have already used the benefit which is their overloads being locked out of that element for some time should they switch from it. Unlike the other classes there is no upfront trade off.
**Weaver -** Any time you change attuenments all elements receive a short cooldown period meaning you can no longer rapidly switch between elements. You can no longer attune to a single element without attuning twice.
## Engineer
**Scrapper -** Function Gyro now always replaces your elite tool-belt skill which can no longer be changed based on your elite utility.
**Holosmith -** Photon forge now always replaces your elite tool-belt skill which can no longer be changed based on your elite utility. (holo could have a bit more of a trade off in my personal opinion but still its a change on the f skill bar so its technically correct when it comes to the standard.)
## Thief
**Daredevil -** Steal is replaced with swipe which has half the range of steal but is unblockable. This forces the theif to get closer before initiating steal. 600 range is very short compared to 1200. The unblockable bonus does not matter for most pve content and does not apply to roughly over half the professions in the game its not often specifically saved just to get past a block.
**Deadeye -** Instant Steal is replaced with deadeye's mark which has a cast time. You also can not steal the same common skills that you normally would steal under base thief and daredevil.
## Closing
Notice how almost every single profession mechanic when it comes to trade offs are tied to the F skill bar and the skills on it.
The only current classes that totally ignore a loss for pure gain right now are Mirage which has literally 0 change from core to the elite and Soul Beast which has all gain. Firebrand does make a trade off but the values are not balanced properly with whats traded for whats which is a fair argument.
I dont hate mesmer as a class but i do hate how its often over looked for proper balance. Its unique (i actually love the idea of chronomancer personally granted it could be better than what it is now) how ever i dont like ignorance and pretending something is fine when there are plenty of arguments that suggest the opposite from a vast number of people.
I dont think you understand trade offs so i have done as you have asked of me and labeled each profession and its elites with trade offs and how they are targeted.
Do i think all trade offs are balanced and justified? No i dont, currently i think some of them are too harsh (scourge/ chronomancer) while others are far too light (firebrand / Holo). So i hope you can understand why i said the things I did and that you can possibly speak with less passive aggressive/frustrated tone so that we can have a conversation.
-
> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > What it should have as trade offs.
> > > > - no distortion
> > > > - no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones
> > > >
> > > > What should be returned
> > > > - power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones
> > > >
> > > > done.
> > > > mirage should have a similar ^ to this also
> > >
> > > I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.
> > > f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.
> > >
> > > also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp
> >
> > Well i dont think it was really fair from the outside perspective that you could use powerful tool like the f4 to get your initial burst twice without any resource cost. That to me is very clunky and very unfair.
> >
> > To be honest with you mirage should out right not have distortion either its silly that mirage can chain its evades and various skills + distortion to be invulnerable for literally 4-8 seconds while being able to do full damage un interrupted.
> >
> > The OP asked to meet in the middle this is my idea of meeting in the middle.
> > Restore instant shatters on f1-f3 but not f4
> >
> > That was always the biggest complaint everyone made was the shatters im not sure why people are going into the idea of a whole class rework now or looking at various other skills that were never part of the inital argument that made the spec "dead" to people. It was always about the shatters not being instant with 0 resource.
> >
> > Lets not forget chrono is still pretty heavily used in pve and in raids and still has very strong dps in pve. I most certainly wouldnt say its dead.
> > if you want it to be less clunky fix the main complaint "within reason" which was having the power to shatter with no clones.
>
> f4 is still kitten and clunky, people LITERARLY use skill that spawns 2 clones to use it. that preety much shows how bad it is, if you remove disort from mirage you can preety much delete the spec form pvp, but thats what people want, isnt it ?
> and you dont even get to pressure people in that 4-8s, why? becouse you lose all clones, and as condi, damage ramps up and depends on ambushes so you dont get the damage that way, and as power, damage comes from GS burst that has cooldown, so you throw it once, that thats IT, you dontget to use it more then once in that 4-8s invulnerability.
LOL this is clearly whats called frustration typing you took none of what i said and applied a proper reply to it. You meshed everything and anything into a single response that makes no sense.
People dont want chrono removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay
- anet wants it to have trade off like every other elite spec (which it did not have)
People dont want mirage removed from the game they want it balanced to have more room for counterplay
- mirage also lacks a "realistic" trade off and can just be seen as a total upgrade without real loss when going from mesmer to mirage.
- You can argue the dodge distance though when you put that against power to not be interrupted while evading , evading under cc, and the additional condi pressure along side utilities like drop target..... it really hardly seems like there is one.
Its not secret that mesmer skips balance patches frequently and is usually one of the last to the party when it comes down to getting toned down. It feels more personal probably but thats not really everyone else's fault. If being viable means be unbalanced and superior in a number of ways against the majority of professions then well you should get use to people demanding you not be viable anymore.
I really dont know what else to tell you.
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> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > What it should have as trade offs.
> > - no distortion
> > - no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones
> >
> > What should be returned
> > - power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones
> >
> > done.
> > mirage should have a similar ^ to this also
>
> I personally find chrono so clunky right now, really tried to make it work in pvp.
> f4 is virtually useless 98% of the time and sometimes just kitten on people so hard, its so sad.
>
> also leave mirage be, i want to have at least 1 spec thats not utter garbage in pvp
Well i dont think it was really fair from the outside perspective that you could use powerful tool like the f4 to get your initial burst twice without any resource cost. That to me is very clunky and very unfair.
To be honest with you mirage should out right not have distortion either its silly that mirage can chain its evades and various skills + distortion to be invulnerable for literally 4-8 seconds while being able to do full damage un interrupted.
The OP asked to meet in the middle this is my idea of meeting in the middle.
Restore instant shatters on f1-f3 but not f4
That was always the biggest complaint everyone made was the shatters im not sure why people are going into the idea of a whole class rework now or looking at various other skills that were never part of the inital argument that made the spec "dead" to people. It was always about the shatters not being instant with 0 resource.
Lets not forget chrono is still pretty heavily used in pve and in raids and still has very strong dps in pve. I most certainly wouldnt say its dead.
if you want it to be less clunky fix the main complaint "within reason" which was having the power to shatter with no clones.
-
What it should have as trade offs.
- no distortion
- no ability shatter f4 with 0 clones
What should be returned
- power to shatter f1 -f3 without clones
done.
mirage should have a similar ^ to this also
-
> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> > > It may be that I have challenged thieves for years in WvW and PvP and got used to their main tactics but...I still can't see condi thieves more than annoyance as +1 , **thieves can't actually duel most specs now unless you greatly outplay the opponent.**
> >
> > This is true however looking at some of the other things you listed.
> > Terrormancer cant win against most classes alone unless it does the same thing its so easy for them to get killed before their slow ramping condis have enough time to do damage which can be stretched out even longer if the foe has any kind of condi cleans (add very limited evades/mobility and almost non existent stability ontop of this)
> > Weavers are kind of in the same boat they dont just win for free if the person has any idea of how 95% of how most condi weavers play.
> >
> > You are not the only one here it should be clear.
> >
> > > the main difference here is these specs have access to the most damaging conditions in game : burning -torment -confusion plus all disabling condis and......2-3x more sustain than condi thieves
> >
> > Hmmm have you forgotten how much stronger poison becomes when when you take the trait? ITs a flat out 33% damage increase on a condition that you can stack to 8+ stacks with ease. Which also last very long in duration. It also cuts healing heavily reducing the sustain of anyone that you apply it to.
> > Burning hits harder but wont linger as long
> > Confusion is not nearly as strong as it use to be
> > Torment requires your foe to move to reach max damage. (and unless its scourge/mirage torment from core necro is pretty weak)
> >
> > Also about sustain.. no
> > See you are probably not counting evades as sustain tools but you should, damage avoidance is always going to be one of the best sustain tools you can have in any video game. You use your sustain while applying heavy conditions so that you take practically no damage from attacks while doing so.
> >
> > > > @"Sakorath.8910" said:
> > > > Terrormancer and fire weaver are not nearly as oppressive as condi mirage and condi thief as they can be basically killed within a single stun or with a little extra pressure from enemy team. Also, fire weaver and terromancers have to be aggressive and engage in the fight to do condi damage. The problem with condi thief and mirage is the ability to dump out condis while evading or being invulnerable (mirage) to attacks completely. They get to play defensively and dump out tons of condis. Do you see the issue now?
> >
> > > You conveniently speak in teamfight terms when it comes to terrormancer and fire weaver..but "jump" to 1v1 scenarios when it comes to condi thieves, like they would perform just as good in a teamfight scenario.
> >
> > But you did this as well with your initial post (moving on)
> >
> > Terrormancer does not work very well in team fight scenario's either lol. Fear is not that effective let alone aoe fears. that often last for like 1-2 seconds on a 32 second cooldown in which you hope no one will have resistance or stab, or just plane ole condi removal. Terrormancer itself is kitten in team fights you would be looking to apply your other condis which ramp very very very slowly. (mostly bleeds and some torment). Scourge is a bit better with its shades but you know how thats doing right now with the recent changes. (laughable)
> >
> > Weaver and firebrand are far more effective in team fights when it comes to wide spread condi application in quick ramping damage.
> >
> > >
> > > 1) Fire weaver has 3 stunbreaks with evades included (Twist of fate) on top of stability with stance use ( they have 3 stances )
> >
> > A person should not even be trying to stun a weaver for lockdown unless they have used twist of fate twice already, You simply need to kite them or use lesser condi removals once the burning is gone they have no damage. Once a weaver attempts to burst you twice they are just done. This is survivable even by necro standards should you be paying attention. Thief let alone daredevil thief should easily be able to survive it.
> >
> > > 2) Core necro treat for stunbreak on entering DS (10s CD ) plus gaining stab , add Spectral walk as second stunbreak
> > Necro can be countered by using chain cc as they have no vigor traits like theif, weaver, or mirage meaning they are bound to get hit if you do this which leads to them popping all their stunbreaks or them just instantly getting screwed (happens to me all the time and there is not much you can do about it. other than hope your foe does not chain cc or that you can dodge some/most of the chain)
> >
> > Theif is by far more effective when it comes to application and burst damage with condition. I dare say with choking gas (which is very good now) + dagger storm their team fight potential is even pretty solid. IT can just dodge or use evasive skills and stack pretty decent burst that will melt you. They also get to keep stun breaks like shadow step and have an elite like dagger storm that they can use in a pinch.
> >
> > The only builds you should compare to condi thief are mirage condi and possibly firebrand condi sage. Every other condi build not nearly on the same level when it comes to oppression, application effectiveness, ramp speed, and counter-play.
>
> I disagree fire weavers can burst an opponent down faster than a condi thief and if there good with their evades and water attunment swapping they can almost require two opponents to down, or it takes too long for one opponent to bother doing. Fire weaver, burn guard/fb and condi mirage on top of holo are all far more broken than condi thief.
I didnt say they couldnt burst them down quicker how ever its much harder for them to do even more so if you see the weaver coming at you. In alot of cases you even see them pop their glyph of elemental power in fire before they do it "once that burst misses" they are just kind free assuming you dont stand in primordial stance while fire is on. (if they wnat to really burst they MUST be in fire) and from day 1 its never been in eles favor to sit in one element for too long or they just die. Any time they leave fire they are pretty open for the taking.
Now looking at theif. Who has multiple ways to blink to you and can apply all its condi pressure while evading attacks not nearly as much as weaver i think its fair to say that between the two there is a vast difference in potential ways to counter them. Its much harder for a weaver to retreat than it is for a condi theif. IF condi theif lands the steal and recharges spider venom they pretty much reset their burst.
> Regardless their all garbage cheese specs/builds so who cares in the end as they all fit into the direction this games pvp is going.
Lets just say ive learned how to deal with condition weavers. Unless one really really catches me off guard or plays vastly different from the majority their kills on me are not anywhere near as free as condi theif.
condi thief can apply their lesser damaging condis with much more ease while playing alot safer at the same time.
That said im still not calling for out right nerfs on them just yet but i just think the OP is very incorrect in trying to say that some of the other classes are better and not nearly as crazy as condi thief.
might not hit as hard but you still hit pretty hard and its alot safer when going in to apply those condis.
-
> @"Arheundel.6451" said:
> It may be that I have challenged thieves for years in WvW and PvP and got used to their main tactics but...I still can't see condi thieves more than annoyance as +1 , **thieves can't actually duel most specs now unless you greatly outplay the opponent.**
This is true however looking at some of the other things you listed.
Terrormancer cant win against most classes alone unless it does the same thing its so easy for them to get killed before their slow ramping condis have enough time to do damage which can be stretched out even longer if the foe has any kind of condi cleans (add very limited evades/mobility and almost non existent stability ontop of this)
Weavers are kind of in the same boat they dont just win for free if the person has any idea of how 95% of how most condi weavers play.
You are not the only one here it should be clear.
> the main difference here is these specs have access to the most damaging conditions in game : burning -torment -confusion plus all disabling condis and......2-3x more sustain than condi thieves
Hmmm have you forgotten how much stronger poison becomes when when you take the trait? ITs a flat out 33% damage increase on a condition that you can stack to 8+ stacks with ease. Which also last very long in duration. It also cuts healing heavily reducing the sustain of anyone that you apply it to.
Burning hits harder but wont linger as long
Confusion is not nearly as strong as it use to be
Torment requires your foe to move to reach max damage. (and unless its scourge/mirage torment from core necro is pretty weak)
Also about sustain.. no
See you are probably not counting evades as sustain tools but you should, damage avoidance is always going to be one of the best sustain tools you can have in any video game. You use your sustain while applying heavy conditions so that you take practically no damage from attacks while doing so.
> > @"Sakorath.8910" said:
> > Terrormancer and fire weaver are not nearly as oppressive as condi mirage and condi thief as they can be basically killed within a single stun or with a little extra pressure from enemy team. Also, fire weaver and terromancers have to be aggressive and engage in the fight to do condi damage. The problem with condi thief and mirage is the ability to dump out condis while evading or being invulnerable (mirage) to attacks completely. They get to play defensively and dump out tons of condis. Do you see the issue now?
> You conveniently speak in teamfight terms when it comes to terrormancer and fire weaver..but "jump" to 1v1 scenarios when it comes to condi thieves, like they would perform just as good in a teamfight scenario.
But you did this as well with your initial post (moving on)
Terrormancer does not work very well in team fight scenario's either lol. Fear is not that effective let alone aoe fears. that often last for like 1-2 seconds on a 32 second cooldown in which you hope no one will have resistance or stab, or just plane ole condi removal. Terrormancer itself is crap in team fights you would be looking to apply your other condis which ramp very very very slowly. (mostly bleeds and some torment). Scourge is a bit better with its shades but you know how thats doing right now with the recent changes. (laughable)
Weaver and firebrand are far more effective in team fights when it comes to wide spread condi application in quick ramping damage.
>
> 1) Fire weaver has 3 stunbreaks with evades included (Twist of fate) on top of stability with stance use ( they have 3 stances )
A person should not even be trying to stun a weaver for lockdown unless they have used twist of fate twice already, You simply need to kite them or use lesser condi removals once the burning is gone they have no damage. Once a weaver attempts to burst you twice they are just done. This is survivable even by necro standards should you be paying attention. Thief let alone daredevil thief should easily be able to survive it.
> 2) Core necro treat for stunbreak on entering DS (10s CD ) plus gaining stab , add Spectral walk as second stunbreak
Necro can be countered by using chain cc as they have no vigor traits like theif, weaver, or mirage meaning they are bound to get hit if you do this which leads to them popping all their stunbreaks or them just instantly getting screwed (happens to me all the time and there is not much you can do about it. other than hope your foe does not chain cc or that you can dodge some/most of the chain)
Theif is by far more effective when it comes to application and burst damage with condition. I dare say with choking gas (which is very good now) + dagger storm their team fight potential is even pretty solid. IT can just dodge or use evasive skills and stack pretty decent burst that will melt you. They also get to keep stun breaks like shadow step and have an elite like dagger storm that they can use in a pinch.
The only builds you should compare to condi thief are mirage condi and possibly firebrand condi sage. Every other condi build not nearly on the same level when it comes to oppression, application effectiveness, ramp speed, and counter-play.
-
What is this.... you must be kidding lol.
While its true its not the most problematic condi build out there its pretty far up there
Its certainly above terrormancer (lmfao) and weaver
The only builds that compete with it are firebrand sage with mantras and mirage which is the strongest condition build in the game when it comes to constant application.
Theif would be just under mirage or just under firebrand
Everything else is easily manageable.
Terrormancer builds = not very effective as fear is pretty weak as a condition in 2019 arguably only the most effective on core necromancer builds which are already underpowered compared to say core guardian, ranger, warrior, etc.
Weaver condi = countered by kiting and their main condition is burning remove that single condition and they have no damage it can be pretty hard for a weaver to apply their conditions if the player is paying attention
Then you have condi thief that often has 2-3 shadow steps to get to a player in which they only need to dodge or use evasive skills to apply conditions heavily then move back out. While the conditions dont ramp as hard as burning from a weaver the ease and safety of application makes up for it.
Poison also does very good damage when thieves take the trait for it.
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> @"Ragnar.4257" said:
> > @"Falan.1839" said:
> > I don't think that build is op, it's an okay sidenoder but not really meta.
>
> You're missing the point; this is the weekly "divert attention to anything other than holo" thread. Stick to the party line!
>
> We saw the exact same last year from mirage mains.
But holo is not an issue right now i would consider this more of an issue than any holo build tbh.
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Excuse me but "now we all know that karma can be converted to gold at about 1g per 100 karma so"
Who what where when and how please explain this to me so i can go start converting right now clearly this is bs or ive been out of the loop lol
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Eye of the north eye of the north eye of the north
also anet where is the ash legion homeland.... **cough**
Charr and norn focus 2020
I personally cannot and would not vote for another human focused x pack right now. We already spent 2 years in Elona give the other races some time be focused on.
-
> @"sajah varel.9261" said:
> > @"starlinvf.1358" said:
> > > @"Pirogen.9561" said:
> > > If template is stored on your client, then it costs ANet nothing.
> > >
> > > If template is stored on server, then it costs ANet something. Server disk space. Disk space is not for free. One(1) template would be like nothing. But on server you have to multiply this by millions of characters/accounts. So it does add up.
> > >
> > > OK, 3 templates are already there. The "current" ones. So 3 don't increase disk space. Extra do.
> > >
> > > GW1 "templates" where on client, your PC.
> > >
> > > Where are GW2 templates stored?
> > > - If client, then "pay for extra" is a dirty money grab.
> > > - If server, its justified. Disk space is not for free.
> >
> > Everyone also seems to keep forgetting that Templates in GW1 didn't have to deal with the type of gear system this game has. In fact, it didn't even deal with its own gear system.
> > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Template
> >
> > GEAR STATS CHANGES EVERYTHING. Build Templates only have to deal with Skill slots and Attribute points..... both of which are completely independent from gear. GW1 also had 4 weapon slots you could load up on the fly, and for the vast majority of builds the only necessary gear change was a spare helmet with a different rune on it.
> >
> > Build slots for GW2 could do the external string thing for Utilities and Traits, because those are universal to the profession in question. Gear on the other hand is wildly different, because you're dealing with Bespoke UIDs for the item, and not just the Item ID (which there are also way too many to be sane...... just look at the TP for any one type of item, and tell me they all are the same thing). Its THIS that all the problems stem from. And NO, its not easily fixed...... and no game with a similar type of loot/gear system would fare any better.
> >
> > They're going with the most viable solution to this whole situation, which is Containers that house the items in question. Legendary gear adds another layer of issues with how its Meta data has to be manipulated. While lesser of the issues, that meta data manipulation is even more complexity and validation checking thats not worth squat, if system its on top of can do something like accidentally overwrite items, or can't handle conflicts like soul binding state, mixed gear (rarity/bind rules), etc. The 1:1 relationship to the slots wholesale avoids this problem, and the containers make a framework to address a whole set of items as a single bundle. I addressed this in a thread years ago about how to handle Per-Character gear set recycling, using a quirk of the existing gear system to create a "left to right" and/or "Load Order" priority. But it still requires you have all the gear you need on that character, and gets stored in the gear panel rather then the inventory.
> >
> > Trying to make One gear set active across multiple characters is an entirely different problem, and would need something very specific to do it. And thats a new class of Shared slots that have to paradoxically both allow and deny all valid gear combinations for a Class. Making them sharable on a per-class basis is very doable, but kind of defeats the purpose. Separating the weapons gets rid of the biggest conflict for armor, but the weapon compatibility problem across classes remains. its gets very messy, very fast.... and I don't trust the Devs to simplify it enough to make it satisfactory.
> >
> > I can think of one solution, but I don't believe the community will fully appreciate the compromise, and would end up just demanding more then its capable of...... Binding Template items to a special bank tab, and using that as a Pool of gear. This addresses the UID problem, since those items are now pinned down. But it also means at any point removing an item from the pool for any reason (like to change its stats or runes) breaks ALL the templates its attached to, and will have to be manually updated with the replacement item one by one. Because I guaranty, if it doesn't go out of its way to make it not-load, players will start running around with missing armor pieces and not realize it. If you deny players are that dumb, you need not look further then this forums to prove their existence..... and that is just a tiny sample of the actual population, whose average awareness is far lower.
> >
> >
> > Gear stats is the entire justification for the need of Gear templates..... But its also the reason why Gear templates are ultimately no more useful then what we're already doing, sans Legendary gear.
>
> The issue is that "additional storage". Let's be clear. It's uneeded. People needing more storage just buy a bag slot. costs the same as a template tab and holds more.
^ Lol Subjective much?
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For the record this is not called symbol firebrand
Its sage mantra firebrand
The symbols are not the biggest danger its the fact that it has
- tons of boon splatter application
- sustain via boons/blocks/etc and healing
- great cc
- good power damage and condi damage
- and decent lockdown via immobilize and blinds
Its just really really really good overall. Its one of the strongest builds around right now I would say.
[merged] I want to keep using Arc Build Templates... :/
in Guild Wars 2 Discussion
Posted
> @"Taygus.4571" said:
> > @"Hannelore.8153" said:
> > I don't get why people complain about this . You are already collecting multiple gear sets so just make alts, and you can have as many builds as you want, accessible on-demand, and ArenaNet has even made it easy in recent times with all the teleport items.
> >
> > Now you can even use three builds per alt without spending anything so the build possibilities go up exponentially..
>
> except...most people were using legendary + arc templates. Anets version, if you swap legendary between characters, your templates get deleted.
most people should probably have been doing what more most people do (get alt ascended gear to solve that problem.)
An elite player can complain that a newbies dps is too low and tell them that ascended gear is ez to get yet they dont own multiple sets themselves?
Im also pretty sure anet did not design legendary armor with the idea that you would be rapidly flip flopping it between different toons. That probably became a thing on the player side.
Which is probably why their current design has some issues with legendary armor which could likely be fixed in future patches with a bit of work.