ZDragon.3046
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Posts posted by ZDragon.3046
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The whole roamer vs not roamer issue is not the real problem.
The real problem is counter-play options and availability
No doubt some builds in this game have very very limited counter-play options some times those options are so few in number that only a few classes can stand up to it.
People complain because there is nothing worse than feeling like "you didnt have a chance to do anything" Regardless of what you are playing people expect to feel that they have a chance or a turn to play their strats.
IF this is constantly denied or locked down by another professions kit with super super limited options to try and make a move it can be very frustrating. It also does not help that alot of people who run builds like this have god complexes and can be pretty toxic in general.
The issue becomes worse when the person on the receiving end looks deep into their own profession to find that they do not have a powerful option that does the same thing and they grow even more frustrated.
While it is true thief and mesmer are great duelist and necro (can potentially) rain down destruction in a team fight (depending on how oblivious your team or the enemy team) is it does not mean that a person should feel that there is nothing they can do. When builds like this rise up anet should rightfully shoot them down for something that offers wider range of counter-play.
Mirage CI is a good example of a build with very limited counter-play getting out of hand.
The initial launch of scourge is another good example (even if it was bugged)
Perma stealth deadeye initially when you didn't have to attack to gain malice was another good example
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I cant wait to free up my inventory by like... a lot of slots actually lol
I couldn't believe it when some one told me about this so apparently thats a real thing i must say im very impressed and 6 slots free on launch :)
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I think some of these post are getting off topic to be honest but here are the three biggest offenders in my opinion
The following elites kind of lack a real trade off and dont really lose anything significant enough to qualify as a true loss. A trade off implies something great thats not within the core confines of the professions unique mechanic at least in my eyes.
**1: Mirage** loses its distortion just like Chrono did instead by default their f4 shatters clones into mirage mirrors and grants the mirage a single mirage cloak on initial use. The trait that does this is replaced with a new effect to compensate. Its f1 through f3 become unique Additionally the f4 requires at leas 1 clone to cast.
**2: Soul Beast** loses the ability to pet swap and becomes locked to 1 active pet as the pet can be revived by merging with it. This causing them to pick that single pet more carefully for specifically one purpose to focus that bond with that pet.
**3: Holosmith's** toolbelt becomes locked to the exceed toolbealt skills (Cauterize, Flash Spark, Prismatic Singularity, etc) regardless if you slot the exceed skills themselves in the utility bar or not.
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Now for Trade offs that either need to be reworked or elites that need to see some tweaks because their trade offs are either not inline or currently questionable.
**Chrono** should have his ability to shatter without clones returned to the f1, f2, and f3 but not its f4. Continuum Split should always require 1 clone to cast.
**Scourge** has a trade off of losing shroud but with the upcoming balance changes I question if the trade off is now justified in any other game mode aside from wvw. This requires a bigger longer conversation i wont go into there is no easy solution here.
**Druid** The trade off here is that the pet is weaker and while it does work its kind of just a lackluster trade really. A bit boring if you ask me thats about it thought. I think druids could have lost pets all together for the celestial versions of their glyphs taking place in the pet hud by default. Give them more of a real bond to nature and the stars as opposed to just lowering pet stats. They would always have a bit of that connection to nature even if they didnt slot glyphs on their utility bar.
**Firebrand** Is an issue. While it does lose its quick instant active virtues for impressive tome skills with cast times i feel a bit more needs to be done. They could arguably have their movement speed reduced and personal boon duration reduced by as much as 50% while using a tome bundle. Generally the loss of simple virtues for these over-tuned tomes is hardly a trade off. While im not saying they shouldn't be powerful they should also have a bit more of a down side to them to keep them in line. The tomes provide a TON and i mean TOOOOOON of power and utility in every game mode compared to the standard virtues. While i consider guardian at its base one of the best balanced classes in the game firebrand is over tuned and it's built on such a stable foundation where its elites really don't need the level of over tuning that firebrand has in its kit. These impressive spells can stay impressive but perhaps they just lose something while use them.
I see lots of people talking about core stuff here which is going way off topic if you ask me.
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> @"Nerah.8235" said:
> I will have to disagree with your assessment of Signet of Undeath (both passive and active). If it were remotely useful in any mode, you would see it used once-in-a-while, as it affects the primary professional mechanic of the class/profession. The only player I have ever actually seen use it with my own eyes is me, and mostly for experimental purposes at that. The utility (even traited) is just not high enough, as necromancers absolutely rely on their utility slots to provide what their one-dimensional weapon sets and the general purpose professional mechanic does not: movement and other utillity (defense and boon corrupts). My own opinion is that if you gave this the heal through shroud when traited, it would actually see some play. It is pretty obvious that [necro] players think necro should be able to heal through shroud somehow: look at the whole soul eater debacle for that.
>
> The damage loss is what it is. The necro already has bottom of the barrel damage on raid golem anyway as far as I am aware. At least this would help the healer to maintain /keep the party HP up. Right now, the healer may be put in a position where the necro is the odd man for healing if he is in shroud, which is one reason that has been given for necro being excluded from raids, etc.
Reaper damage is not 37 k but its certainly not the bottom of the barrel its modest if not solid if the player knows what he is doing and on some end game bosses reaper actually excels very well because of how burst heavy its rotation is.
Ye healers cant heal you in shroud but if a healer holds back to wait and heal the necro just because he is in shroud in raids then he is a bad healer and needs to learn how to play better. You dont hold back your heals just because the necromancer goes into shroud.
Necro was excluded from raids because its damage was worse than what it is now and it also provided 0 beneficial party buffs to its subgroup. Now it has solid damage (assuming the person knows how to play and knows mechanics). Reaper having such a high hp pool allows it to go down much less than alot of other professions do and in situations like that you will notice that reaper can do alot more damage depending on how solid the overall group is. For me im almost one of the last players to die in fractals or raids because I can take hits that other professions cant. I go down far less times and while my dps never ramps as high as say a weaver, or firebrand initally if the fight goes on long enough I generally end up doing more dps than firebrands and more than the weavers (if they die or go down alot)
>
> Regards the other Signets:
>
> The Signet of Vampirism (passive) is not really a heal, as it only triggers on damage application. I don't know of any level-adjusted attacks that do <400 hp damage, so it is effectively a damage reduction in all modes. This isn't bad, but you would not use it in end game PvE (at least it is not optimal): in PvE either Consume Conditions or Blood Fiend are superior choices (depends on scenario). I personally use SoV in WvW and sPvP to help tank damage, since necro has no blocks or invulns: in those modes, you will absolutely be hit no matter your skill level.
I already know this and stated **pvp** from the start there was no real reason to even write this.
>
> Signet of Spite is very solid, but boring. It is a good addition to almost any build in any mode. In power, it gives MORE! In condi, it can provide both burst and cover.
I dont agree i think the signet is outdated and has an high cd for its active vs passive components
>
> Signet of Locust is also solid, but even more boring. I use it a lot, as it is a non-corruptible speed boost, and clutch heal. It just stinks that we need to use a utility Signet to provide what every other class gets for free on their weapon sets.
Quickening Thirst (trait) ,Speed of shadows (trait in a commonly used line), Locust swarm (warhorn 5)
You have 3 other options fore speed increases here you complaint is kind of misguided
>
> Plague Signet is great on condi-centered builds. They should revert it back to transferring all condi upon active transfer: I don't like the current limit.
Its passive is still not very good its punishing depending on where you use it. The nerf to the active part is sad but not the biggest issue with it. In most cases outside of pve you will not have more than 5 conditions on you at any given time if you have any sense of awareness and basic understanding of mechanics of the area around you.
In pvp its passive is a death trap while fighting along allies always has been and sitll is. Sorry to say it would be far better if the passive was changed the active is fine even with the nerf.
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> @"Nerah.8235" said:
> The idea is this:
> Signet of Undeath = not great, weak utility, never taken
> Ability to Heal through Shroud = not (typically) possible, greatly desired in raids, etc. Note that this would mean a healer or field-blast healing YOU. The signet itself does no healing, which is where I think you are coming from.
I see but if thats going to be a thing should it not just be on a base trait within necromancer some place perhaps in death magic
There is no real reason for this to be on a signet passive which already has questionable a good passive and active (the cast time on the active is just a bit too long)
>
> Add Heal-through-Shroud as the passive effect to Signet of Undeath while using Signets of Spite. Make new baseline LF gain the current higher figure while out of shroud. Keep the active the same. Now, you have a great option for raids, which allows proper healing through shroud, and decent LF gain over time (in raid you are in combat for a looonngg time). It would have selfish synergy with traits like Vital Persistence. Balanced by needing to use a precious utility slot AND a GM trait for an ability that does not increase damage, nor add group utility.
This is a immidate damage loss and no one would take it. You would be giving up signet of spite or some other dps increasing utility for this and most people just probably would not do that anyways.
>
> I run Signet of Vampirism. It is not constructive to consider the passive a heal. What it is actually doing is providing a limited form of damage resistance, as it only procs on hit, only 1/sec, and only heals for about 400 unless you run an enormous amount of healing power (not advisable).
Well in pvp 400 hp per second is not that bad its actually rather solid considering no healing investment that said in pve where you generally should not be getting hit much then no. IF you are getting hit that much in pve it wont matter if you can be healed though shroud or not cause you are taking too much damage in general. Your goal in pve should not be to get hit at all unless you are built to be the fixate and want to play that role.
>
> The Spite GM3 will always be run in any type of PvP mode, as it provides too much utility to pass up: ranged PBAoE damage, multi boon strip, and retaliation, all on instant cast (no tell). Right now, GM2 is mostly run in PvE to help with damage output. I think that GM1 is currently underused overall, as is Signet of Undeath, but I think my idea could improve both in a fair way.
Well considering 1 of my reapers does not run spite at all and the other actually runs GM1 i dont know but i tend not to run perfect meta pvp builds especially for necromancer because they just dont work well for me. Necro is very very easy to counter and the more predictable your build is the easier it is to give up the advantage.
This is just me though I personally think that GM3 is very nice in spite and GM2 is even solid if you are good at quickly getting people to 50% GM1 is not used very much because most of the signets are outdated.
Vampiric signet is solid if you ask me,
Signet of undeath just needs faster activation,
Signet of spite either needs its condition applications updated (its missing burning, slow, confusion, and chill if i recall) or needs its cd reduced by like half.
Plague signet needs a new passive (xfer or copy a condition to a foe when hit once ever x seconds)
Locust Signet is kind of ok (if it hits multiple foes) its just too situational not sure what can be done about that.
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> @"Rico.6873" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Josiah.2967" said:
> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > @"OutOfOrder.3719" said:
> > > > > It sounds like this change to the Scourge Shade mechanic will nerf PvP and PvE builds hard, and do nothing to address WvW large scale battles. what the kitten ??
> > > >
> > > > It wont really be a nerf in pve at all it will just require the player to pay slightly more attention to deal damage specifically for end game content.
> > > > In pvp it is a nerf because scourge now is an easier target if it summon a shade.
> > > > in wvw well... better get your anti tox runes.
> > > >
> > > > LOL
> > > >
> > > > But that said i mean if they make scourge subpar in every mode what is it suppose to do.
> > >
> > > Think about how this affects dpsing moving targets....
> >
> > Scourge was not suppose to be a dps that might be part of the problem.
> >
> > That said if you want to dps a moving target then dont summon a shade and move next to said target then use shade skills like every other form of necro... but you dont have a true shroud or hard defensive tools....
> >
> > hmmmm problem seems to go back to core necro woops...
>
> power dps aye but it was meant to be a condi dps
No it was suppose to be a support elite in general. IT launched with inane amounts of condition pressure and damage and took roughly a year of bug fixing and nerfs to get it to what it is now and most people still see it as being too strong.
But i guess anet designed it with pvp or wvw in mind by giving every ounce of its utility boon corruption.
Scourge hardly supports as it its because barrier is a bit of a weak mechanic (useful in some niche situations vale guardian for example) but not very supportive overall because it expires so fast. Most of scourges support comes from the blood magic combination which feels more like bloodmagic with a bandaid fixed ontop to make it work some what better than it does on the other specs.
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> @"Lily.1935" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > A good read
> >
> > Unholy Sanctuary could have been re worked and you are right that it is the biggest shame trait in the whole list.
> >
> > The activate shroud part of it is not really the focus i zero in on
> > I would have liked to see it so that it always heals you over time in combat with the heal effect scaling up based on Death's Carapace stacks perhaps with increased healing potential when shroud is active.
> >
> > While Corrupter's Fervor will likely be the biggest benefit to hybrid or condi builds
> > Unholy Sanctuary really could have been the big player for power users only who wanted a bit more defense or raw sustain. Then you could run that with Deathly strength to further help compensate the losses you take from swapping death magic for say blood, or soul reaping.
> >
> > I also agree
> > Minion traits could have just been wrapped up into 1 trait freeing up some space
> > Soul comp still being useless almost everywhere as a on death only style trait.
> > And lack of actual defensive options like stability at high stacks of Carapace could have made this much more worth wild.
> >
> > I personally dont see myself using this as some one who favors power builds because the gain from this line does not cover the loss of what ever you give up for it. In short its as you said I see this too punishing to take in almost every situation.
> >
> > I will no doubt test it next week myself but i dont have high hopes for this.
>
> I'd Say corrupter's Fervor is the best trait for power too. Power builds on the necromancer use a lot of conditions. just because they don't favor damaging conditions doesn't mean they don't use them. Reaper is all about vuln and chill and you also have fear, weakness, blind, crippling to name a few. This isn't hard to pull off even fore a power build. Easily, this is the best option for you no matter what build you use baring a minion build.
Right i think it depends on what game mode you look at though. Power reaper in pve (if your setup is closer to the end game meta) will not have as many conditions and your condition application will be a bit more bursty in a common rotation mainly coming from the gs auto, death spiral, soul spiral, and reaper 5.
With scourge in a wvw or any game mode really example trading of soul reaping for death magic could be a bit closer to being even however in the case of reaper which heavily benefits from soul reaping and spite I see it as a bit more iffy. Will the utility and damage bonuses = out to the increased sustain gained from the line. I'm thinking it probably wont.
In pvp reaper might get a bit more use out of it as in pvp you do things that you generally would not do in a pve rotation. Generally you dont axe auto in pve very much but in pvp you most certainly would do it alot more making vuln application much more applicable, You also wouldn't run the axe/focus trait in pvp you would run bitter chill for even more vuln. So i can understand where you are coming from but not in every game mode does this example make sense.
Overall you are still correct it is the most bang for your buck in trait options but it wont nearly be as effective depending on the game mode.
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Kind of hard to understand what you are trying to say here its kind of unclear. You talk about healing but then name Singet of undeath which has nothing to do with healing.
Signet of vamp. a method of healing in shroud when you are hit by anything as its passive. But of course you give up consume conditions if you run that which limits your condi clense potential
People use GM3 in pvp because boons are out of control and its necros only option to combat boon heavy builds. There are alot of builds where necro just loses if it does not have enough boon strip/corrupt to fight against. If anet ever cuts boons down respectfully where necro could depend more on weapon skill or just utility corrupts people would surely branch out of GM3 for GM2 or even GM1
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A good read
Unholy Sanctuary could have been re worked and you are right that it is the biggest shame trait in the whole list.
The activate shroud part of it is not really the focus i zero in on
I would have liked to see it so that it always heals you over time in combat with the heal effect scaling up based on Death's Carapace stacks perhaps with increased healing potential when shroud is active.
While Corrupter's Fervor will likely be the biggest benefit to hybrid or condi builds
Unholy Sanctuary really could have been the big player for power users only who wanted a bit more defense or raw sustain. Then you could run that with Deathly strength to further help compensate the losses you take from swapping death magic for say blood, or soul reaping.
I also agree
Minion traits could have just been wrapped up into 1 trait freeing up some space
Soul comp still being useless almost everywhere as a on death only style trait.
And lack of actual defensive options like stability at high stacks of Carapace could have made this much more worth wild.
I personally dont see myself using this as some one who favors power builds because the gain from this line does not cover the loss of what ever you give up for it. In short its as you said I see this too punishing to take in almost every situation.
I will no doubt test it next week myself but i dont have high hopes for this.
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> @"Nerah.8235" said:
> Maintaining 30 stacks of carapace should be really, really easy: it is what, 1 stack per condi applied (assuming corrupter's fervor)? I can hit 25 stacks of vuln in a few (i.e. 2-3) seconds (ignores any other conditions that would also be applied, such as chill, bleed, weakness, cripple, and poison). I can hit 30 stacks of condis very quickly on both power and condi builds. Maintaining at least 25 carapace over time should be doable, provided you have some enemies or ambient creatures around. Since I use a lot of non-meta junk already, including the current Death Magic traitline, I will experiment and see what the changes do when they go live. I should be able to get about 4200 toughness at full carapace stacks on my main build. With pulsing protection, that should make me pretty resilient?
Getting stacks likely wont be the problem depending on what game mode you are looking at.
I think the bigger gripe people have with this rework is the loss vs the gain when it comes to use it... its simply not balanced enough because it solved 0 problems people have pointed out or suggested to anet over the past 6 years. They left traits in the line that should have been removed or totally reworked all together and they didnt even bother touching some traits like Unholy Sant. Which would have been key for power builds but its going to remain at its weak iteration.
In pve of course you can get 25+ easily on a condi build.... not sure why a power build would use this though as most power builds are actually not that hot at applying condition (considering reaper at the moment) you get some vuln and some chill that comes it burst its not constant application. Considering you have to give up your damage line or soul reaping to take death magic you get a bit limited even more with condition application with power builds. Give up spite and you lost some vuln application access, give up soul reaping and you also lost vuln application access if you were opting for unyielding blast to trigger getting stacks. You also lost critical damage and straight up damage modifier.
In pvp maintaining 25+ stacks may actually be a challenge as you can be cc'ed / locked down where you cannot attack and evaded etc which slows your stacking process. Now dont get me wrong im not saying you wont ever hit 25+ stacks in-fact you might do it often based on your build. With power builds... probably not with condi builds sure. Then we need to once again look at what you are giving up for it. I think this is the major problem. In almost every case the losses being traded for this potential death magic are simply not balanced.
4200 toughness would be impressive but it really depends on what game mode you are looking at.
In wvw zergs were you are prone to taking alot of small hits vs big hits its probably gonna fare really well.
In pvp it will still be trash. Burst meta classes will still chew through 3k or 4k toughness and eat you alive while you deal less damage than normal and if they have any ounce of defensive sustain themselves you wont be able to kill them due to giving up offensive pressure for slightly better defense especially on power builds.
In Pve i dont see the point in running this... i mean in open world it hardly matters because its open world. In fractals and raids i dont think its going to be usable outside of very very few niche situations. I mean you need to be good with your static to even suggest letting you try something crazy kind of niche.
Overall its just a disappointment but we can wait and see how it really turns out. I doubt ill use this after testing it next week just for the sake of peeking at it. Maybe just maybe we will all be incorrect about how floppy this idea is but i have my doubts at this point.
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> @"DeWolfe.2174" said:
> what about the extra 50% hp on minions???? I don't see it anywhere in the rework.
the way thats worded it looks like thats being removed.
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> @"Anchoku.8142" said:
> > @"Nimon.7840" said:
> > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:
> > > Uhhh, guys? Each stack only lasts 10 seconds (aside from Flesh of the master). How the *hell* do they think we're ever going to hit 30 on anything resembling a regular basis? I don't even think it's possible if you're not using Corrupter's Fervor.
> >
> > Well my guess would be that hitting multiple targets helps stacking.
> >
>
> That was my thought as well. WvW condi-bombing is one way to build a full stack quickly. Another is against PvE bosses that allow more time to develop a stack.
>
> Unless I misunderstood the preview notes, the purpose of the change is to make Necro easier to bag at the start of an engagement, increase the value of disengaging from Necro to reset the fight, and place more emphasis on having other professions support and escort.
>
> Unfortunately, I feel like the changes will nerf Necro more _outside_ of WvW zerging than it will _in_ a zerg.
It will because for one blood magic does the job just as if not more effectively and provides more utility in other modes that are not wvw when more sustain is needed.
Secondly players have found out that offensive pressure provides more sustain in pvp than trying to invest in stats that would provide sustain like toughness. People are more likely to disengage from you as a necro if you pressure them or limit their options of attack through offensive abilities.
So yo give up offensive power for sub par / weaker / potentially weaker defensive power at early engage for slightly and i mean slightly higher potential raw toughness makes no sense.
Anet had 7 or 6 years worth of ideas here on the forums to consider while doing this rework and they took absolutely none of it into account. Its just out right disrespectful really. Our ideas will end up on another profession as they often do.
See necro focus 4 ideas ending up on guardian focus 4 when guardians were not asking for a re work to the skill. (just as an example)
About the only 2 traits that are going to be considerably better than they were before are
Deathly Strength
Not because of the potential 300 power either. IF you run a toughness build at the moment you can get 300 if not more than 300 bonus power while in shroud. ITs just the fact that you will be able to maintaine it in or out of shroud now and you dont need toughness as you upfront stat to get that bonus.
Death Nova
With the 60% damage increase assuming that the strike damage is not still **BUGGED** and that it will actually strike a foe. This bug has been around for a long time and i cant recall them ever fixing it. How sad it would be to see them buff the strike damage of this trait by 60% when it does not even apply the hit in the game....
Pretty good job so far.
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> @"Dadnir.5038" said:
> It will most likely count for PvE aggro and be left out for food buffs. Like every other things working this way.
>
> Seriously, I would like to say that this "rework" is disappointing, but since it end up exactly how I imagined it would end up, I can't. Truth be told, ANet lived to my expectation of mediocrity here.
hue i am disappointed with you not sure why i had hope.
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> @"Anchoku.8142" said:
> Is it possible the toughness granted by Death's Carapace will not be counted in the aggro calculations?
>
> I have not thought of any other (good) reason for its introduction.
>
> Otherwise, Carapace is an intentional nerf to delay and prorate DM benefits based on 10 second trailing condition output rate.
It should we had a tank once in raids and a firebrand who was maybe 100 ish points of toughness below what was suppose to be our fixate in sub group 2
Any time he used the tome skill that granted 300 toughness to everyone the fixate would change to him.
So im pretty sure bosses will change fixate on players who are given a stat like toughness from effects like Deaths's Carapace
I think toughness applied by effects will work here but that in itself is a problem to why necro wont be able to tank properly.
Anytime you stop attacking or cannot attack if your stacks fall off you lose your toughness which can possible cause others to have become the fixate ideally... a necro who wants to tank with this idea still needs to invest in toughness to not risk dropping fixate during phases and other wild transitions that may happen on bosses that happen to fixate via toughness.
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> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:
> > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:
> > - Warrior's Cunning: This new trait increases damage by 25% against foes with health above 90%. Additionally, it increases damage by 50% against foes that have barrier. These bonuses do not stack.
> Oh. Okay. Sure. Just, make a trait that says "I win all fights against all Scourges regardless of how they play."
Cant wait for those 20k rampage bolder throws ehh?
Im sure thats gonna be the ez scourge shutdown lol
Bolder already hits 12k as it is right now on a good crit im sure an extra 25% or 50% wont be too bad *wheezing laughter*
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> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:
> > @"Asum.4960" said:
> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:
> > > > @"Asum.4960" said:
> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:
> > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"fewfield.7802" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Waldrun.8493" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"fewfield.7802" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Josiah.2967" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > PVE - Nerf
> > > > > > > > > > > > WvW - Buff
> > > > > > > > > > > > PVP - Delete
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I am so confused.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > How is it nerf in pve ?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
> > > > > > > > > I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.
> > > > > > > > It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.
> > > > > > > How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic
> > > > >
> > > > > But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?
> > > > > Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???
> > > >
> > > > You would be surprised how little Soul Reaping adds for Scourge, but just the extra Toughness you get from DM makes it pretty unplayable in endgame group content for tanking reasons. Don't think any tank is want to go that high just so someone can play a subpar DPS like Necro.
> > > >
> > > > Only use of Scourge (or Necro in general), with or without DM, in all of PvE from what I see will be Soulless Horror, where you can tank with Trailblazer and maybe now taking DM while being the Epi bot.
> > > > Aside from that, just don't even bother playing Necro. It was already so far behind everything else and now it's even worse.
> > >
> > > Hmmm, I was actually thinking about this, and this is theorycrafting to the max of course, but might there be a new role in store for the Necro (mostly Scourge probably)? A full DPS tank!? You can go full viper (or berserker if you want) and still have the most toughness. That way the rest could go base toughness entirely.
> > > No Support tanks needed anymore, we could now raid with DPS tanks! And what better job for the Necro to fulfil that role than anyone else, for their DPS was already poor BUT viable (as everyone always says), and with no real loss to their "viable" DPS, they can now fulfil an important role.
> > > Please react (of course I'm overlooking something really obvious here :), orso)
> >
> > Chrono already does the tanking as hybrid DPS though, except it also brings group buffs and buff extension to the table, as well as being able to block a wide variety of mechanics, which at times is really important, see Deimos etc.
> I know, but Chrono can then just go full Berserker/Diviner instead of needing Knight/Commander pieces. Which adds to overall DPS output, right?
But why.... lol why would chrono redo their gear for a necro with subpar performance if you want a dps chrono for overall dps then the gorup would just take another chrono built for raw dps (or any other pure dps class) along side the hybrid chrono. which adds to overall dps output even more. This change wont be a meta shift because necro already struggles to be a sub par tank on most bosses at best anyways with a very few being the exception.
Maybe in a static where everyone knows the necro and chrono really well and they both have extra gear sets to do this kinda thing maybe but on the general terms of meta or even slightly off meta this concept is super rare im thinking.
Even if we rip chrono out of the situation
can be dps tank or dps support also so... would you even bother... lol im not sure how i feel about trying pass off something so horrible as passible by trying to fit it into super niche spots. :/
-
> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:
> > @"DEATHsCLAW.1978" said:
> > it's goot that anet realises that there is something wrong with DM, still post rework it provides you with ramp up thoughness which depletes if you are stun-chained (since u cannot keep up those high stacks then) and no stability at all.. I dont see how any competent pvp builds would use that line
>
> I’ll be honest here and say that the buff itself is mediocre. But anet seems to want to adopt a design philosophy which involves standardizing everything under similar metrics, and the only thing that all classes share are stats. So that’s why we see the exchange of might granting traits into “gain 120 power” traits.
>
>
> But the design of DM right now makes sense when you think about it from the perspective of stats. They saw how stats redistribution opened up builds when they added 600 ferocity. So now they are adding 600 toughness into the mix with deathmagic
Does it though? Because for most professions it was not an increase of 600 it was considerably less but still an increase. These traits also trigger immediately and dont requires a build up of stacking an effect 30 times.
>
> That should be enough information to see why this is going to be a strong spvp spec.
If this was Pre HoT or early HoT meta i would agree with you here but this is 2019 where burst meta is king.
600 toughness will not mean a darn thing and that assumes you have maximum stacks which likely wont be easily sustainable not to mention the time needed to build it up. Burst meta attempts to hit you before you have time to make a build up.
So will this be a strong spvp spec for necro, no probably not...
Will people test it out of course.
even assuming some one takes foot in the grave for most professions its not hard to push necro off a point with a single cc wich can be enough time to decap the point even if the necro is trying to bunker.
Lets also not forget the common focus the necro first that has become a standard for spvp. will 600 toughness alone assuming max stacks be enough to save you probably not.... overall they took a line that was very sub par and its still sub par with a small potential of being slightly better assuming the caster can achieve high stack counts.
-
> @"Asum.4960" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:
> > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:
> > > > > @"Nimon.7840" said:
> > > > > > @"fewfield.7802" said:
> > > > > > > @"Waldrun.8493" said:
> > > > > > > > @"fewfield.7802" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Josiah.2967" said:
> > > > > > > > > PVE - Nerf
> > > > > > > > > WvW - Buff
> > > > > > > > > PVP - Delete
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am so confused.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > How is it nerf in pve ?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
> > > > > > I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.
> > > > > It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.
> > > > How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?
> > >
> > > More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic
> >
> > But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?
> > Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???
>
> You would be surprised how little Soul Reaping adds for Scourge, but just the extra Toughness you get from DM makes it pretty unplayable in endgame group content for tanking reasons. Don't think any tank is want to go that high just so someone can play a subpar DPS like Necro.
>
As little as it add i dont think DM immidately outweighs it based on these changes sure some people are already pointing out a few super niche situations where it "might" work out for the better but if its gonna be in small cases like that there is no point im looking at the general overall and i dont see it as better for the reasons you said as well as others.
-
> @"Nimon.7840" said:
> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:
> > > @"Nimon.7840" said:
> > > > @"fewfield.7802" said:
> > > > > @"Waldrun.8493" said:
> > > > > > @"fewfield.7802" said:
> > > > > > > @"Josiah.2967" said:
> > > > > > > PVE - Nerf
> > > > > > > WvW - Buff
> > > > > > > PVP - Delete
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am so confused.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How is it nerf in pve ?
> > > > >
> > > > > In raids, where I really enjoy playing scourge, it's ability to land shade abilities is going to be awful on bosses that move a lot. If a boss moves out of your shades all your shade abilities become completely useless now there will be no pulsing AoE around your character. If a boss moves too much you will have to just not use sand shades at all to be able to use your shade abilities on the boss which would be a over dps loss for a class that's already underperforming. This is going to be painful on bosses like soulless horror.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think Shade is still doing fine even the nerf comes. It has lower cd compared to the WvW version and also you have Alacrity which makes the cd even lower.
> > > > I dont think Scourge will have any problems to keep the Shade up on bosses, Just a bit harder to land skills properly.
> > > It will get a lot harder. Dps might go up a bit on golem, but overall it will still be below 30k.
> > How would dps go up a bit on golem? Am I missing a buff here?
>
> More dmg from poison and the poison Nova's will get stronger when selecting deathmagic
But you are going to give up curses or soul reaping for death magic which would result in an immediate dps loss in itself what are you thinking?
Or did you forget you need the scepter trait from curses and dhuum fire from soul reaping???
-
> @"DragonFury.6243" said:
> this death magic change feel just like focus 4 skill change we got not too long ago changing useless skill with a new useless skill .
> but now we got a heavy nerf to scourge shade in PvP and PvE .
> death magic in PvE give little dmg increase and give sustain which necro have enough of already if you play viper condi take Parasitic Contagion and you will never die .
> in PvP there is enough burst dmg and condi dmg to one shot necro even with 600 toughness necro need stab so we dont get stun lock .
> so in conclusion scourge now is kitten class in PvE . reaper remain the same .
>
Ive ran 2k toughness builds before and you still pretty much get 1 shot by burst meta. if not one shot your hp is knocked so low the next few hits still kill you. IF you guard with shroud you lose most of your offensive pressure because your shroud eats all the damage assuming you have life force to soak it. That said this line does not help build life force regenerate health for the necomancer itself provide any source of stability and only has real use with core necro imo.
About the best build in pvp you can make of this is
Blood magic (with wells)
Death magic (with Corrupter's Fervor: )
Soul Reaping (with what ever but possibly foot in the grave because why not)
This will give you possibly high protection up time if you play your cards right with some health restoration from the wells when people stand on them.
That sad you have no offensive pressure and no good source of stab or other critical boons that other bunkers usually have so im not so sure how well this would be in a team fight or for defending a point. All someone has to do is push you off the point for 3-4 seconds and its de capped.
Im still in total awe and disrespect at the fact that people have complained about how bad Unholy Sanctuary is and here in this rework they didnt even touch it.
They could have made the heal scale up with the number of Death's Carapace stacks or something AT THE VERY LEAST.
-
> @"Etterwyn.5263" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Etterwyn.5263" said:
> > > 600 toughness, 300 power, and perma-protection in WVW? Drooooooooooooooooooolllll.... <3
> >
> > So you are gonna drop what for this? its not exactly free what are you planning to drop?
> >
> > Assuming wvw you are playing scourge... you gonna drop curses or soul reaping?
> > Assuming you go core necomancer how are you planning to quickly ramp the stacks cause it wont be as fast as you think. not to mention you are less effective still...
> > Is the drool from the shock of how abysmal this is?
>
> I play Reaper and if you solo roam you aren't running full glass anyway unless you want to be downed as soon as you realize somebody else is even there. So you get your toughness from gear, food, or traits regardless. I've had a great time with Death and Soul Reaping. 30 does seem like a high number but I'm not going to judge until I see it in motion.
Ive ran into many necros roaming as reapers in wvw to say thats not a true statement.
i have to honestly say i have a hard time thinking you could kill anything or still dont get mowed down even with the current death magic if some one else shows up. I just cant envision this based on my experience on fighting things with necro if you got tanky (most) other professions can still out sustain and out damage you so its better just to take the damage so you at least have some chance of killing them. Ive found that offensive pressure provides more sustain than trying to "Tank it up" So i dont see this as very good. Even if we look at the maximum best case with the new stacks for toughness they ignored several traits that should have been addressed more properly. that could have provided much better results or a wider verity of builds. Several times have i dove into things with testing death magic and every time ive felt it was always lackluster for more reasons than i can count. I dont see a single thing in these notes that screams at me.
Trust me i would love to run a tank necro but you need more than toughness to be truly effective as a tank in multiple game modes. deathmagic fails to add those missing details.
-
> @"Etterwyn.5263" said:
> 600 toughness, 300 power, and perma-protection in WVW? Drooooooooooooooooooolllll.... <3
So you are gonna drop what for this? its not exactly free what are you planning to drop?
Assuming wvw you are playing scourge... you gonna drop curses or soul reaping?
Assuming you go core necomancer how are you planning to quickly ramp the stacks cause it wont be as fast as you think. not to mention you are less effective still...
Is the drool from the shock of how abysmal this is?
-
This is hot garbage
**Its arguable worse than the current version of death magic**
- Requires more work to get less benefit than the current death magic
- kept on death traits that serve no purpose in a fight we dont need traits that trigger when the fighting is done and over with its pointless
- no stability
- didnt touch the healing grand master for regenerating health left it weaker than regeneration
Even the first minor GETS YOU LESS than the [original ](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armored_Shroud "original ")
man they really should have asked for feed back on this.
No one wants a whole trait line based around a mini game of collecting stacks.
-
> @"Axl.8924" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"Axl.8924" said:
> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:
> > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:
> > > > > > > @"Thornwolf.9721" said:
> > > > > > > They could also change shroud in core necro to be minion based skills which is where you get your summons. You still get the shroud effect but as you said it vomits minions, or hell just make it that they passively are summoned whenever you have death-magic equipped and otherwise they are unable to be around you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The issue I have with that is that you only propose to change core shroud. A core traitline impact every single e-specs, not just core. So to justify all those core minion traits they would have to have all 3 current necromancer (core, reaper and scourge) and all futur e-specs "vomit" minions via their special mechanism.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Personnally, I'm not that greedy, I'd rather have them create a single e-spec with a special mechanism focused on creating minion (I'm not even asking for weapon skills or utility skills generating minions, just the special mechanism. I don't even care if this e-spec end up competitive in any way, I just want the necromancer to be cleansed of those traits that support passive minion gameplay and drag down DM.) and the current "minions traits" packed on this e-spec to leave some room for true defensive traits on death magic.
> > > > >
> > > > > While true scourage wouldn't take death magic, Reaper might and paired with "Rise!" It could be good. I don't feel like its a big deal its only something that takes place if you have the trait-line active which even if it does get changed not everyone will use it. Don't like it, don't use it is the name of this game and if you don't like a change you switch classes. A-net doesn't care, they are like digital honey badgers....
> > > >
> > > > The only way reaper will take death magic is if death magic basically adds greatly to sustain in exchange for the loss of damage.
> > > >
> > > > Right now reaper sustains by having kinda threatening ish damage in shroud. A slow reaper with low damage is not a threat right now in the meta. You just run right over it or ignore it.
> > > >
> > > > The some ideal things death magic needs in exchange for the damage the user looses by taking it
> > > > Good condi clear, conversion, or xfer for damaging condies only
> > > > Grandmaster healing in shroud needs to be addressed in death magic. Either make the grand master good or make the grand master allow other traits that normally do not heal in shroud work so that they do heal in shroud.
> > > > Some minion traits need to be moved baseline (the one for more hp and damage on the minions should be baseline)
> > > >
> > > > Possibly flop some traits around from other lines that are better fitting in a defensive line (foot in the grave for example) would be a good master or grand master minor for death magic line (for its current level of strength has no chance of competing in its current state as a grand master option in soul reaping)
> > > >
> > > > IF anet pulls a 1 step forward and 2 steps back with death magic by cutting base line things and forcing them into this line then its going to make necro even more of a mess. This is something they really should be looking to get feedback on.
> > >
> > > If ele can have dmg in sustain why can-t we have some sustain without sacrificing too much dmg? seems only fair I know eles in pve need that sustain to survive because they are very squishy but we need some sustain to be able to continue to do dmg and having to sacrifice a lot of dmg to be sustainable isn't a viable choice.
> >
> > Because ele's sustain comes from different sources and anet firmly and constantly doesn ot believe necromancer should have access to similar features despite it being a light armor magic themed class. One must also consider Ele's much lower base hp pool.
> >
> > To go into more detail though
> >
> > Most of ele's sustain comes from
> > **Evades**
> > Be it natural evades with vigor uptime or evades like weavers twist of fate ele has access to damage avoidance through evades which is a form of sustain.
> > **Blocks/reflects**
> > While they dont have many of these they do have a few noticeable options (Arcane shielding, Magnetic Aura, Wind projectile destruction) to name a few
> > **BOONS**
> > Ele is just packed to the brim full of boons what it lacks in hp it makes up for in boons which can questionable be more vauable than having a higher base hp as boons provide extra critical chance, increased damage, increased dodging potential (vigor), as well as many other things.
> >
> > Lastly Sustain is kind of built into ele by default through water attune, No matter what weapon you look at water is rarely damaging element and almost every weapon in water attune provides some kind of healing skill or spell. In some cases multiple healing skills or spells which also have evades combined into them.
> >
> > **Necro**
> > Necromancer is a bit different. Necros damage is there but it is slightly below par on the pvp and pve side. Their damage also heavily depends on their shroud which is kind of ok.... but its also suppose to double as a defensive tool that makes up for all those things other light armored professions have for defensive tools and it just fails to do that at its base.
> > **pve**
> > As a necromancer you have a higher chance of survivability in pve simply because you can take harder hits that other professions cant. How ever this is not a valued asset in most cases as most people dont plan end game content with the idea of (the necro will still be standing and can save the day) most people who make a wide spread mistake will just say to gg and start over which voids the the sustainability of necromancer being able to take a harder hit. Should your party or squad continue after a critical mistake (for example you lose one of your dps'ers) This will also be the only time necro really appears to out perform other classes is if well they die early on or go down constantly where as you might not as a necromancer because you can take a punch or two.
> > **pvp**
> > In pvp necromancers sustain depends on its offensive pressure because they have very no or lesser kit tools that dont stand up to boon sustain, blocks, and evades. They dont have good resistance to cc lock down, dont have the quickest burst damage, are not very mobile and dont have tools that provide true damage avoidance such as evades, invulns, and reflects. They do have projectile destruction via CPC but thats a lesser tool and its not super useful in pvp where you have to give up things like spectral walk / armor, or other skills that have far more critical value for the lesser sustain they even provide (other break stuns or condi clear etc.)
> > **General**
> > To be frank no matter what they do to death magic even if they do nothing but buff it and leave necromancers base kit alone the way the other trait lines fall its going to be a pretty rough damage loss if you opt to take death magic. If anet still encourages the idea of necromancers having no hard defenses then people wont use it because having a bit more toughness in the current burst meta wont matter. If you still get limited dodges where people can just chain cc you to death it wont matter.
> >
> > To be honest with you either way its probably a bust for any form of necro to use death magic because they currently depend more on offensive pressure for sustain than defensive tools. IF you lower your damage and people are quick to notice they will still run circles around and right over you and you will just feel like you are less effective.
> >
> > It will be interesting to see if they actually rework it or just tap like 2-3 traits with a small QoL that makes literally no difference between the previous version and call it "Fixed" for another 5 years. Death magic needs a near miracle wishlist of a rework to be considered viable and if it does become viable people will be quick to voice their opinions on it to make it unviable.
> >
> > Death magic is a small problem in the entire necromancer kit its a good spot to start by giving necro a true defensive line that actually works and feels like its doing something when you equip it. How ever core necro still has so many more issues that need to be fixed which will then extend to the elite specs bringing them up to par with other professions as well. This is not easy to balance for all game modes though.
>
> I was wondering actually if there was a way lets say to make it so the dps loss isn't too extreme because every class has at least some way or form to sustain although i don't think it will be the same kind, especially with shroud. We the fans have to decide if we are to use shroud as dps and or sacrifice dps because we cannot have shroud be a decent tool for survival and heavy dps without it being extremely overpowered, which is why every survival tool has to be outside shroud. Can you just imagine reaper being neigh invincible while dealing the damage it is now? oh boy will that not go too well. Maybe they can combine dps and sustain trait to death magic somehow to make the pets deal more dps and help us sustain more or something? so the dps loss is some but not too massive. my problem is in pve as you said dps loss is a big deal but i think also it might not go so well.
There are several professions at the moment who have the power or potential to be invulnerable for a short time while still dealing pretty high dps granted the time frame is usually only a few seconds but still.
Its not like the idea is new its just the idea would be limited to 4-5 seconds at most
Necros sustain will like always be tied to its offensive pressure in some way which can be ok if the tools for the job are proper. That is where the problem comes in as alot of kit tools are just subpar and outdated.
Anet already did the combo of damage + sustain in a trait (soul eater) and it was nerfed because of how strong it was in pve. According to them it "Provided too much sustain" which was partly true depending on the situation the necromancer was in.
Sadly the reason why taking death-magic will 100% always be a damage loss is because regardless if you go power or condi it means you are required to run Spite or Curses thats 1 trait line down if you give up spite or curses you will take a dps loss.
Now you have the option to take death magic or give up soul reaping if you give up soul reaping regardless of if you go power or condi its a dps loss due to soul eater, death perception, dhuumsfire, etc. Giving up soul reaping is a dps loss
Or you could keep Soul reaping and your choice of spite or curses. In this case if you take death magic as your 3rd line you gave up reaper and scourge which is also a dps loss because core is not even close to competing either one of the elites.
So death magic ideally needs to be something magical for people to want to use it because no matter where you swap it in the offensive pressure of necomancer is going to take a hit. It needs to actually feel like it helps you survive burst, help reduce the chain cc tact that people often take against necro, and actually provide away to respectfully heal in shroud at the very least.
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Posted
> @"mazzah.1284" said:
> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:
> > > @"keeganrockssocks.7136" said:
> > > > @"Game of Bones.8975" said:
> > > > > @"GloomxWar.8793" said:
> > > > > Why do you force players to pay for something that they already got for free with a third party program?
> > > > > I think making players pay for this is one of the worst things Anet could do.
> > > >
> > > > No one is forcing you to use this update. It's there because many people were asking about it for years.
> > >
> > > How are you getting thumbs up for this absurd comment. We’ve had this feature now for a long time - not because of Anet but because of a thirdparty. Now it’s being taken away and a price tag has been added. This means thay we are 100% being forced to pay for something we had.
> > >
> > > You are in denial.
> >
> > IT sounds like you are admitting to use of 3rd party tools which is against le rules. if you were smart you would just stop your rebuddling here. IF anet ever decides to take action against 3rd party tools which includes the build templet you claim to use so much (which you have not always had by the way) you will be in alot of trouble.
> >
> > no one is forcing you to pay anet is even giving you some slots fore free at launch jfc...
>
> ArcDPS and its build template options are very much not against TOS, anet specifically allowed its use until they came up with their own build templates at which point the build template option in ArcDPS would have to be removed, which is happening now. Just stop yourself from typing next time even if you think you know what's happening.
First off, how rude
Second off, a quick google search quickly says that the use of tools like build templets are "At your own risk" use kind of tools meaning for any reason what so ever anet could decide to ban you. In fact it is against the TOS to use tools like this to a certain extent just not the extent "YET" that they feel they need to take action against it. The same goes for ArcDPS. If something ever says "USE AT YOUR OWN RISK or YOU ASSUME RESPONSIBILITY or DO NOT CONTACT ANET FOR HELP THIS 3RD PARTY TOOL" it generally means ITS AGAINST THE RULES to some extent.
Third, off
Anet gives you something you have asked for a long time to the point you are willing to risk getting banned to have it. Then when they give it to you you want to complain about it?
Anet gives you content for free only requiring you to ever have made 2 or 3 purchases in total for the core game and its x packs with no sub fee? Where do you think the money to keep the game going comes from?
Are you really so selfish that you cant support them? Even if you dont buy additional slots some slots are being given to you for free
Perhaps the reason they didnt build it the way you liked is because its not possible for them to do while proceeding with content for the future in alliance with their roadmap or plans.
"But build templets works this way"
Well anet didnt build the build templets code and there is probably a reason they didnt just copy that code and work it in.. PROBABLY BECAUSE in it they see something they dont like.
Let's not be ignorant here let's be ciivil people. You have not had access to Arcdps build templets for that long lets not act like its been around for 7 years cause thats simply not the case. There are many people who wont use things like build templets from arc dps because guess what "ITS AGAINST THE RULES!" to some extent.