ZDragon.3046

@"KrHome.1920" said:

> We won't get it. ANet does buff other aspects of the class for compensation for a while now.

>

> more crit chance in Curses (allows more tanky gear)

Not valid every class has traits like this your argument could be said for them as well so this does not apply as a valid reason.

> more Ferocity in Soul Reaping (allows more tanky gear)

Not valid every class has traits like this your argument could be said for them as well so this does not apply as a valid reason.

> Quickness and more damage in Reaper Shroud (allows more tanky gear)

This has nothing to do with tanky stats as you dont gain any base stat increase quickness alone. The correct argument to say here would have been more ferocity allows for more tanky gear but then again as ive said reaper is not the only class with a traits like this. Both the quickness and ferocity are limited to in shroud only as well so its not like the necromancer has them active at all times either.

> multiple damage multipliers e.g. Soul Barbs and Soul Eater (allow more tanky gear)

Not valid every class has damage mods some of them being more than what necro has, your argument could be said for them as well so this does not apply as a valid reason.

> more condi cleanse options (allow more sustain utilities)

Hmmm also no many classes have more condi clense options than necro especially for burst condition removal. Necro has more xfers than pure clenses. You also fail to mention the lack of evades, blocks, and stability that is missing in our utilities that other professions do have so this is not valid either.

> cooldown reduction in Core (more Shroud impact)

This is the point as necro has very little impact outside of shroud no matter which form of shroud you look at. Its shroud form is suppose to be its most devastating form and as part of its profession mechanic you want to have as much access to that as possible. ITs why necro is so weak when its not in shroud.

> Death Magic sustain buffs (high Protection uptime)

High protection up time is true and this is possibly the only correct statement you have made so far. However death magic means a great loss of any offensive pressure. It provides no increase gain for life force, no healing, and very minimal condition cleanse, Toughness is by far the most irrelevant stat in pvp with how deadly the burst meta is. Protection can also be stripped by several classes and there are also several other classes and specs that can maintain perma protection while having far greater offensive pressure and effectiveness.

>

> In its current state Necro would be too strong for a 7s cooldown. Just don't look at Berserker or Marauder gear just because Warriors get away wit it. A Wanderer/Paladin Spite Curses Spectral Onslaught Reaper is decently strong and durable. Give such a build a 7s Shroud cooldown and you have the next fotm broken kitten.

To be frank you are not correct in any way shape or form.

IT would make reaper stronger but not broken. It would make core more flexible but far from strong.

If you struggle to kill a wanderer or paladin reaper then you need to reconsider how you fight them. Regardless of their toughness necros are generally still easy targets especially if you have multiple heavy cc options in your kit or can out range them or have greater mobility.

Most of your rebuttals are not real as they exists on other professions which means you are just cherry picking at necromancer

Kinda wish sand shades had a bit of functional mix from the Thrall summon on blade and soul's warlock class.

You could summon it and command it to move to your target or move back to you when you needed it.

It could soak attacks for you and apply various minior cc effects and be sacrificed for a intense party wide buff.

It even had a break stun that let you swap places with it if i recall. IT was just a good way to do an immobile pet that was some what similar to shades. Was it perfect no.... but are shades perfect... nope far from it. A mix of the two would be grand imo.

The shades just feel so lacking and with each "fix" or "balance" anet makes they become more and more bland. (at least for me)

I think scourge needs alot of help it might be time to even consider letting some of what we know currently go as in just scrap it for a new idea and mechanic. Because anet struggles to balance this one and they even have admitted it.

Unless they are finally willing to do skill splits between pve, pvp, and wvw where skills change in functionality they may never properly deal with scourge without ruining it in some game mode or another.

Players would probably rather learn how to handle different skill functions in different game modes over having one game mode break the skills in the other two. Even more so when it works really well in that 1 game mode which will lead to it further being cut down at a later date.

To be honest with you im surprised they fixed the Deathnova its 100% better than it use to be as before strike damage was never applied. That said its in the death magic line and its still not that good. But it seems to scale alright ish for what is both power and condi but dont expect anything too crazy its weak and it scales up but is still weak compared to other options you could take.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Trise.2865" said:

> > > Person caught stealing cable angry about having to pay for cable:

> > > "Please let me continue stealing cable instead of paying for it."

> >

> > I was going to use the same analogy ... but there are probably too many juveniles that have no idea what we would be talking about.

> Rather, there are enough people that are mature enough to understand that this "analogy" has nothing to do with situation at hand. Nobody was "stealing cable" here. People were using a third-party, _completely legal and allowed_ addon.

You are right the correct analogy would be

Neighbor allows you to use his wifi till you get your own internet service setup

**2 years later**

"What do you mean I cant use your wifi anymore? Yours was working just fine for free."

Neighbor insist that it was only suppose to be temporary and that you are consuming his bandwidth and that you should get your own now that you are able to do so. He even goes as far to ask if you would like him to help get you started. He ask questions so he can point you at the service plan thats cost effective and one that will work for you needs.

"But yours is already there why cant i just use yours. I should be able to just keep using yours it works for me. No bob i dont care that your kids cant play candy crush. Whats the new password?"

> No amounts of "analogies" you make can present this implementation of build templates as anything more than at best half-useful and heavily overpriced.

How can you use a word like heavily overpriced when you dont know the prices?

> Besides, seriously, can you even make a point in this discussion _without_ heavily misrepresenting reality?

Reality is that on the 29th unless anet says other wise build templates are going away. So instead of complaining about it we should be providing proper feedback to get the system to changed closer to help meet people who have higher build slot requirements.

Simply going let me use arc, your design is bad, its too pricey, especially when we dont know the prices for sure wont help anyone.

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > @"MoonT.6845" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Lottie.5370" said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Who needs more than 6 gear templates for one character??

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Pretty much everybody that plays WvW

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I run 14 different builds on roaming ranger alone, each with different gear configuration.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you run 14 different builds, have you considered minimizing the number of builds you would actually need a template for?

> > > > > > Im just hoping when people say i have 10+ or 20+ builds its not having a build that you change where only 1 small minor thing changes like a utility slot, or a single trait or two or just a single weapon.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I get that you can have quite a few builds in pvp/wvw and raid situations but i mean 14 for a single character is a lot.

> > > > >

> > > > > I can once again list off some builds, taking my guardian as example.

> > > > >

> > > > > **DH Power DPS** (Raids/Fractals), which consists of Berserker gear with Scholar Runes, requires separate Build Template.

> > > > > **FB condition DPS** (Raids), which is a Viper/Sinister/Grieving mix with Balthazar Runes, requires separate Build Template.

> > > > > **Condition Quickbrand** (Raids), which is full Viper with Firebrand Runes, mostly shares build with FB condition DPS, but a separate build template as now in Arc would still be handy.

> > > > > **Power Quickbrand** (Fractals), which is a Scholar/Diviner mix with Scholar Runes, requires separate Build Template.

> > > > > **Healbrand** (Raids), which is full Harrier with Monk Runes, requires separate Build Template.

> > > > > **Healbrand** (Fractals), which is a Harrier/Magi mix with Monk Runes, shares build template with the Raids version for the most part.

> > > > > different versions for Virtues and Radiance for Healbrand, which wouldn't be too much trouble to select by hand without Templates, but nice to have

> > > > > **Tank Healbrand** (Raids), which is full Minstrel with Monk Runes, shares Build Template with Healbrand for the most part.

> > > > > **Open World FB** (OW), which is a Marauder/Berserker/Diviner mix with Firework Runes, with multiple other versions (ie Templates) depending on what I want to play, , requires multiple separate Build Templates.

> > > > > **Zerg FB** (WvW), which could share a Gear Template with Tank Healbrand, but requires a different build Template.

> > > > > **Roaming FB** (WvW), of those I have multiple Templates depending on what I feel like playing/trying out/to iterate on as build.

> > > > > **Core Guard** (PvP/WvW), a Valkyrie/Berserker Mix, requires separate Build Template.

> > > > > **Sup Bunker FB** (PvP), separate build Template for PvP

> > > > > **Hybrid FB** (PvP), seperate build Template for PvP

> > > > >

> > > > > That's just a glimpse of my templates for one character on what I deem most essential (generally see play every week at multiple points), with there being plenty more I could awkwardly mix and match together to consolidate Templates or which I play more rarely, but just doing one Shift+Click in arc and loading them on demand obviously is far superior.

> > > > > And still it's too many to bring into Anet's templates, even if I had the cash to spare to unlock all these slots on all my characters that I need for smooth and enjoyable playing.

> > > >

> > > > I see well i would like to ask you a few more questions if you don't mind. I'll start with just these because they're probably the most relevant that would lead to any others.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > Question 1

> > > > For the sake of humoring me what would your alternative work around had been to carry this many builds for your character, What would you have done as a work around if arc templates would have never been allowed in the first place?

> > >

> > > There was no alternative. I started using Arc over 2 years ago in tandem with getting into Raiding or rather shortly after, as I noticed very quickly that the constant swapping without Arc templates just wasn't feasible or fun, especially as someone who started covering many different roles from boss to boss.

> > >

> > > Is suppose the "alternative" for me would have been not playing or not getting into that type of content due to getting too annoyed by that aspect of it.

> >

> > I was thinking more along the line of "alternative" being

> > - carrying your extra gear sets on you and just swapping them out manually

> > - making alt characters which can hold a few different alt builds each

> >

> > So its safe to say you started using arc templates at the same time you roughly started getting into raids roughly which would lead to an increase in having different builds for different wings and bosses etc.

>

> Swapping all these gear sets, and by now Legendary armor sets, manually isn't an alternative, it's the problem.

> I sought out a tool like ArcDPS because of the frustrations that came with not having a template feature, which became necessary after becoming engaged in more game modes, as in starting to play especially Raids but also PvP in addition to Fractals and WvW, which meant keeping track of way too many builds eventually, and way too much swapping by hand to be fun.

>

> That problem obviously got worse over time with each new boss to tackle, requiring different compositions and with it builds to have at hand.

>

> The reason I didn't make 2-3 alts for each class was one, I was going for legendary Armor (which I now have for all frequently played characters, which ironically makes swapping by hand even worse) and two the fact that that would cost me quite a bit in character slots while still not being convenient with constant relogs, especially since my PC is ageing and loading screens quite long.

>

> > >

> > >

> > > > Question 2

> > > > Did you know going into the use of arc templates before hand that arc templates were a temporary and not a permanent solution?

> > >

> > > No, I started using Arc long before official templates were announced, with the sentiment in the community being that they would likely never come.

> > > Unfortunately we were wrong.

> >

> > I see. Based on what a few others having saying it seems like arenanet knew they would get to it eventually after allowing the use of Arc templates which were allowed > > > only up to the point they were ready for live release.

> > ok i have just a few more.

>

>

> > Question 3

> > Before you got into raids (before the use of Arc templates) did you still have a lot of different builds for wvw/ fractals/ open world etc? IF so how many and how did you handle storing them and was it still a major annoyance for you?

>

> Before getting into Raids and PvP I was mostly playing Fractals as well as some WvW. For WvW I made one alt specifically for that gamemode of an already existing profession, with the rest mainly being geared and setup for Fractals. But I was also playing a lot less characters with much fewer build's at that point, as we didn't have as much and easy opportunities to gear new characters to make new builds back then.

> So generally at that point isn't wasn't a major annoyance, no.

> I wanted to have more builds and be able to hop into more different gamemodes, but before Arc I simply didn't, because the swapping around of things wasn't worth the effort, so I just mostly stuck to my niche I already had builds for, so the lack of access to many or any templates simply kept me from playing and enjoying parts of the game/multiple builds.

Fair enough.

>

> > Question 4

> > Not including continuous use of Arc Templates, what would you suggest anet do their templates to help players like you who need a higher number of builds per character?

>

> Drastically increase Gear but especially Build Templates to 20+ and reasonable pricing, something like a 10-Slot pack for 400-800 Gems, and/or account wide Slot unlocks for 400 gems would go a long way.

> Basically anything that means I have to spend less than 400€+ to have still too few templates would be an improvement over what they had discussed on stream.

>

> That's simply both not affordable, and not enough even if it was.

>

> The Account Templates need to be vastly expanded over the 24 and frankly should probably be either free, or come in 20-Slots for 400-800 gems max. Unlocking them 3 at a time for 400-600 Gems each with a cap of 24 is a nightmare for Raiders/Theorycrafters or any sort of hardcore player.

>

To be honest we need more people giving feed back like this ^ I had not even considered the idea of them being sold this way till i read your reply.

This is the kind of thing anet needs to see and maybe perhaps they could do something about it.

still i think 24 is alot for most people perhaps there needs to be a modifer of some sort for people who require more. I dont know really but your feed back is far better than most of what ive seen so far. I will give this a thumbs up.

Hopefully slots per character or account wide slots 1 of the 2 can be increased without it being too expensive or breaking technical limitation of the game to keep them server side.

Over all though the idea of selling slots as packs for gems is by far one of the best suggestions ive seen so far. Due to the lack of communication i think its easy to commonly assume that anet is going to offering them as single slot per gem purchases. Which would be very expensive for some one like you with tons of builds.

Anets biggest flaw with the community is lack of communication. Even when they give us information they never supply a few key bits of info for one reason or another that leads to chaos.

They could have thrown out an idea like yours and said "disclaimer none of this is finalized and the prices could change" and people would have probably been much more accepting at least when it comes to the price points.

Communication would have also came in handy on how they settled on 6 per character and 24 account shared slots.

If anyone has the communication to the above feel free to reply and say so in case I missed it.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

>

> > Should anet just abandon the work and time spent so far (who knows how many man hours) and drop it all together to just allow arc?

> If it cannot be improved to work properly, then yes, they should.

This alone is enough for me

I will agree with you one one thing from the overall conversation arenanet has clearly made some bad decisions.

The decision to branch out and allow arc templates to spoil people will be what really hurst them the most with this feature

Maybe in the end they will allow arc to remain. I think im done with this topic for now though its started to get too repetitive.

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > The game is old and its built on old tech dont confuse the possibility of technical limitation with bad design.

> > both gw1 templates (older version of the same engine,remember) and arc templates show clearly that's not a case of technical limitetions, but is entirely a case of bad design.

> >

> >

>

> Weren't GW1 templates client-side? Aren't GW2 templates going to be server-side? Maybe the decision to move to server-side was one for security reasons and being server-side would be constrained by hardware/database limitations? Just speculation since we really haven't been told either way.

Yes they were and this is what i was thinking

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > The game is old and its built on old tech dont confuse the possibility of technical limitation with bad design.

> both gw1 templates (older version of the same engine,remember) and arc templates show clearly that's not a case of technical limitetions, but is entirely a case of bad design.

Gw1 is still a very very old game and back during that time of online pc games you had 1 of 2 things happening in the game.

Everyone was cheating or no one was. Given gw2's track record im gonna go with the idea that it was alot less likely. Not to say it probably still didnt happen.

1: With respect for the advancements in technology and how smart some people are today I can see why they dont want to allow local templates. Its very risky in 2019 to just break open your system and let people do what they want. Give them a crumb and they'll take a whole cookie. While it's unlikely that anyone would find away to do something against the TOS aka cheat in some way or form there is no promise that this would not create a number of problems in the future.

2: There is also the matter of what happens if your drive crashes or you need to do a clean start. You will now have to set all this back up and for people who have 30+ builds i can only imagine the annoyance of how troublesome that would be.

Now this last example is always the case of "That wont be me" Untill it happens. That said you could just make back ups but that does not excuse the first reason

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Now think about that along side the idea of anet employee who is being forced to work on these templates while reading these comments when he probably has no choice but to design them a certain way. He/She is also told they will be paid less for their work because not every person will use the systems he/she has spent hours on hours working on even if its not the best ideal system for players with 30 builds perhaps there are reasons He/she cannot control other than just money cost as to why the system is designed the way it is.

> And? I am not blaming the dev. Were anet to push responsibility for their own bad design decisions on individual devs, that's their failure as a business. Not mine.

By this logic, some one could see a bad design decision is allowing players to use and be spoiled by arc Templates ;P

>

> In short: it doesn't matter if a dev was forced to make the system in an intentionally crippled way or not. All that matters is that the system is crippled and badly designed.

The game is old and its built on old tech dont confuse the possibility of technical limitation with bad design.

> @"TPMN.1483" said:

> QoL features should not cause frustration.

Im going to zone in on this bit

Most of them dont and this one wont exactly do that for most players thats why its called quality of life because it makes things better. Anet adding this feature in itself wont exactly directly be causing frustration to players who

- have only a few different builds

- do not use arc templates

Which is surely a large number of people. Im not saying a fair amount of people dont use arc templates but im sure a large number dont. Even players who have alot of builds but dont use 3rd party addons will find this helpful to some degree, not frustrating even if the base number of slots does not fit all of their builds.

>

> Question 4

> Not including continuous use of Arc Templates, what would you suggest anet do their templates to help players like you who need a higher number of builds per character?

> - It is not only builds it is also 'equipment slots', the current implementation does not link skills and equipment with legendary armor allowing swapping.

Are you 100% sure about this i think i read otherwise but i could be wrong

>

> What I suggest ANET does - is allow Arc to continue until they reword their implementation to cater for the players who need build templates the most. It is still an advantage to use the ANET system if you want to free storage slots (however many players who have played the game for a long time - do not have this problem).

> ANET needs to look at allowing the 'build' (skills, stats, sigils, weapons, armor, infusions, wardrobe selection) to be saved and allowing each component to be loaded as a complete build or as part (e.g. equipment, skills). To reiterate one prior posters who has builds, I have a Mesmer main and currently have 1-6 different build for every boss in a RAID which has minor changes depending if I am main tank, off-tank or dps/hybrid as well as a challenge mode build for that boss. The reason for doing this is so that I do not forget an essential skill, trait which could cause a group wipe and want to quickly select to a build that I know will not cause a group wipe. In addition, I have builds for fractals (a selection of variations). At last count, I have around 50 builds with equipment configured specifically for encounters that modifies legendary armor, weapons , sigils, runes and in some cases infusions.

>

> The current implementation that has been proposed by the developers does not need my needs at all - the arc templates which are basic and not particularly UX friendly does meet my needs.

>

> TLDR; ANET needs to address the needs of the community that need the functionality of build templates who are require numerous builds (and equipment templates - which are stuck at 6 slots) and rewrite the proposed solution.

Thanks, At least you have a understandable and reasonable explanation for your specific situation in great detail.

In the event that its technical and slots per character cannot exceed 6 what would you propose anet do? What if there is no way for them to code over 6 slots or if going beyond this number of slots per character for every person would be very costly in terms of server storage / maintenance / upgrades etc?

Should anet just fork up the cash with no return investment?

Should anet just abandon the work and time spent so far (who knows how many man hours) and drop it all together to just allow arc?

What if when anet started this design they realized it simply will not work with arc which is even more of a reason why it wont be allowed?

Should anet be forced to design around arc because thats just what people such as yourself have gotten use to even if it means scrapping other features they have planned in the future?

The deeper i think about this the more im starting to wonder how hard of a choice anet is probably going to have to make overall.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > Issue for you is that you wont get to keep arc templates

> > Issue for anet is they have to deal with all the unhappy customers who dont like how they are making the system.

> Notice, how the second issue doesn't disappear with arc templates gone. Quite the opposite.

> First issue however does disappear if Arc remains a solution.

First off there are a great number of people who actually will be fine with the base level slots of anet is offering or people who just didnt use arc build templates at all.

Secondly the 2nd issue is always there you cant please everyone. Even if the allow arc there will still be people upset about something somewhere.

I need to respond accurately to what you also just said.

**Thought experiment**

Anet caves and allows it arc templates. But updates to game make arc templates buggy as heck (Without or possibly with their knowledge) with a high chance of erasing your gear into the void. (of corse you would have no way of knowing till it happens) You wont be able to submit tickets for help or come here to talk about it as per the current understandings of using arc templates.

You decide to submit a ticket for help anyways and some one at arena net sees your ticket responds with "We are sorry for your loss but we are unable to restore any data erased by 3rd party software and suggest you stop using that software"

While they are saying typing this in your ticket they simply think "First issue disappeared"

This seems fair.

Now think about that along side the idea of anet employee who is being forced to work on these templates while reading these comments when he probably has no choice but to design them a certain way. He/She is also told they will be paid less for their work because not every person will use the systems he/she has spent hours on hours working on even if its not the best ideal system for players with 30 builds perhaps there are reasons He/she cannot control other than just money cost as to why the system is designed the way it is.

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"MoonT.6845" said:

> > > > > > @"Lottie.5370" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > Who needs more than 6 gear templates for one character??

> > > > >

> > > > > Pretty much everybody that plays WvW

> > > > >

> > > > > I run 14 different builds on roaming ranger alone, each with different gear configuration.

> > > >

> > > > If you run 14 different builds, have you considered minimizing the number of builds you would actually need a template for?

> > > > Im just hoping when people say i have 10+ or 20+ builds its not having a build that you change where only 1 small minor thing changes like a utility slot, or a single trait or two or just a single weapon.

> > > >

> > > > I get that you can have quite a few builds in pvp/wvw and raid situations but i mean 14 for a single character is a lot.

> > >

> > > I can once again list off some builds, taking my guardian as example.

> > >

> > > **DH Power DPS** (Raids/Fractals), which consists of Berserker gear with Scholar Runes, requires separate Build Template.

> > > **FB condition DPS** (Raids), which is a Viper/Sinister/Grieving mix with Balthazar Runes, requires separate Build Template.

> > > **Condition Quickbrand** (Raids), which is full Viper with Firebrand Runes, mostly shares build with FB condition DPS, but a separate build template as now in Arc would still be handy.

> > > **Power Quickbrand** (Fractals), which is a Scholar/Diviner mix with Scholar Runes, requires separate Build Template.

> > > **Healbrand** (Raids), which is full Harrier with Monk Runes, requires separate Build Template.

> > > **Healbrand** (Fractals), which is a Harrier/Magi mix with Monk Runes, shares build template with the Raids version for the most part.

> > > different versions for Virtues and Radiance for Healbrand, which wouldn't be too much trouble to select by hand without Templates, but nice to have

> > > **Tank Healbrand** (Raids), which is full Minstrel with Monk Runes, shares Build Template with Healbrand for the most part.

> > > **Open World FB** (OW), which is a Marauder/Berserker/Diviner mix with Firework Runes, with multiple other versions (ie Templates) depending on what I want to play, , requires multiple separate Build Templates.

> > > **Zerg FB** (WvW), which could share a Gear Template with Tank Healbrand, but requires a different build Template.

> > > **Roaming FB** (WvW), of those I have multiple Templates depending on what I feel like playing/trying out/to iterate on as build.

> > > **Core Guard** (PvP/WvW), a Valkyrie/Berserker Mix, requires separate Build Template.

> > > **Sup Bunker FB** (PvP), separate build Template for PvP

> > > **Hybrid FB** (PvP), seperate build Template for PvP

> > >

> > > That's just a glimpse of my templates for one character on what I deem most essential (generally see play every week at multiple points), with there being plenty more I could awkwardly mix and match together to consolidate Templates or which I play more rarely, but just doing one Shift+Click in arc and loading them on demand obviously is far superior.

> > > And still it's too many to bring into Anet's templates, even if I had the cash to spare to unlock all these slots on all my characters that I need for smooth and enjoyable playing.

> >

> > I see well i would like to ask you a few more questions if you don't mind. I'll start with just these because they're probably the most relevant that would lead to any others.

>

>

>

> > Question 1

> > For the sake of humoring me what would your alternative work around had been to carry this many builds for your character, What would you have done as a work around if arc templates would have never been allowed in the first place?

>

> There was no alternative. I started using Arc over 2 years ago in tandem with getting into Raiding or rather shortly after, as I noticed very quickly that the constant swapping without Arc templates just wasn't feasible or fun, especially as someone who started covering many different roles from boss to boss.

>

> Is suppose the "alternative" for me would have been not playing or not getting into that type of content due to getting too annoyed by that aspect of it.

I was thinking more along the line of "alternative" being

- carrying your extra gear sets on you and just swapping them out manually

- making alt characters which can hold a few different alt builds each

So its safe to say you started using arc templates at the same time you roughly started getting into raids roughly which would lead to an increase in having different builds for different wings and bosses etc.

>

>

> > Question 2

> > Did you know going into the use of arc templates before hand that arc templates were a temporary and not a permanent solution?

>

> No, I started using Arc long before official templates were announced, with the sentiment in the community being that they would likely never come.

> Unfortunately we were wrong.

I see. Based on what a few others having saying it seems like arenanet knew they would get to it eventually after allowing the use of Arc templates which were allowed only up to the point they were ready for live release.

ok i have just a few more.

Question 3

Before you got into raids (before the use of Arc templates) did you still have a lot of different builds for wvw/ fractals/ open world etc? IF so how many and how did you handle storing them and was it still a major annoyance for you?

Question 4

Not including continuous use of Arc Templates, what would you suggest anet do their templates to help players like you who need a higher number of builds per character?

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"MoonT.6845" said:

> > > > @"Lottie.5370" said:

> > >

> > > > Who needs more than 6 gear templates for one character??

> > >

> > > Pretty much everybody that plays WvW

> > >

> > > I run 14 different builds on roaming ranger alone, each with different gear configuration.

> >

> > If you run 14 different builds, have you considered minimizing the number of builds you would actually need a template for?

> > Im just hoping when people say i have 10+ or 20+ builds its not having a build that you change where only 1 small minor thing changes like a utility slot, or a single trait or two or just a single weapon.

> >

> > I get that you can have quite a few builds in pvp/wvw and raid situations but i mean 14 for a single character is a lot.

>

> I can once again list off some builds, taking my guardian as example.

>

> **DH Power DPS** (Raids/Fractals), which consists of Berserker gear with Scholar Runes, requires separate Build Template.

> **FB condition DPS** (Raids), which is a Viper/Sinister/Grieving mix with Balthazar Runes, requires separate Build Template.

> **Condition Quickbrand** (Raids), which is full Viper with Firebrand Runes, mostly shares build with FB condition DPS, but a separate build template as now in Arc would still be handy.

> **Power Quickbrand** (Fractals), which is a Scholar/Diviner mix with Scholar Runes, requires separate Build Template.

> **Healbrand** (Raids), which is full Harrier with Monk Runes, requires separate Build Template.

> **Healbrand** (Fractals), which is a Harrier/Magi mix with Monk Runes, shares build template with the Raids version for the most part.

> different versions for Virtues and Radiance for Healbrand, which wouldn't be too much trouble to select by hand without Templates, but nice to have

> **Tank Healbrand** (Raids), which is full Minstrel with Monk Runes, shares Build Template with Healbrand for the most part.

> **Open World FB** (OW), which is a Marauder/Berserker/Diviner mix with Firework Runes, with multiple other versions (ie Templates) depending on what I want to play, , requires multiple separate Build Templates.

> **Zerg FB** (WvW), which could share a Gear Template with Tank Healbrand, but requires a different build Template.

> **Roaming FB** (WvW), of those I have multiple Templates depending on what I feel like playing/trying out/to iterate on as build.

> **Core Guard** (PvP/WvW), a Valkyrie/Berserker Mix, requires separate Build Template.

> **Sup Bunker FB** (PvP), separate build Template for PvP

> **Hybrid FB** (PvP), seperate build Template for PvP

>

> That's just a glimpse of my templates for one character on what I deem most essential (generally see play every week at multiple points), with there being plenty more I could awkwardly mix and match together to consolidate Templates or which I play more rarely, but just doing one Shift+Click in arc and loading them on demand obviously is far superior.

> And still it's too many to bring into Anet's templates, even if I had the cash to spare to unlock all these slots on all my characters that I need for smooth and enjoyable playing.

I see well i would like to ask you a few more questions if you don't mind. I'll start with just these because they're probably the most relevant that would lead to any others.

Question 1

For the sake of humoring me what would your alternative work around had been to carry this many builds for your character, What would you have done as a work around if arc templates would have never been allowed in the first place?

Question 2

Did you know going into the use of arc templates before hand that arc templates were a temporary and not a permanent solution?

I say it depends on what mode you look at

In pve i think classes that do supporting take some skill to play if you really want to maximize them

In pvp its any-class thats outdated or is very technical but is also not a one shot sniper

So....

Ele (is probably the most skillful of them all)

- Pretty much any weaver build except, pulse aoe/evade condi weaver though (that takes no skill and its not very good once some knows your play style)

- Tempest takes a good bit skill but it really depends on the setup, (i once had a tempest reflect projectiles for me by standing in front of me while ie was cc'ed with [Magnetic Wave](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Wave "Magnetic Wave") It was just godly.....)

- core ele takes skill in general

- the very few and rare people who know how to play staff ele in pvp properly

Necro (just because of how undertooled it is at its base compared to the other professions)

- Core requires a bit of skill to play and not just die from power creep of everything else its also outdated and lacks tools it should have

- Reaper is the same as core but to a much lesser extent

- Scourge at the moment is probably even more technical than ele at least in pvp. But before the patch no.. this was not skillful imo

Theif

- Any thief thats not condi or perma stealth takes some skill i would say.

Warrior

- Berserker is probably the hardest realistically to play out of the 3 (not talking about 1 shot builds)

Engineer

- Core.... yeah no one does this anymore lol.... Holo just made it so free and easy its silly

Mesmer

- Any mesmer build that does not use a staff

The hardest things for me personally to play is a warrior and thats because i main a necro and the two play 100% differently its actually mentally draining for me to play warrior because i have to make myself think so differently but warrior can be fun. I personally dont think its as easy as people say it is.

> @"Healix.5819" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > didnt that get like hundreds of people banned for like half a year????!?!?!??! :astonished:

>

> No, and no one except for the creator was ever banned for using BDGM, which openly defied ArenaNet by including the illegal features.

So wha was the big ban wave that hit people wide and far across open world and pvp?

IT was some 3rd party thing that allowed people to look at other peoples traits etc

Because you cant sit here and tell me there was not a ban wave... i 100% remember that and it was certainly more than 1 person.

If you can just clarify this for me. Thanks

> @"MoonT.6845" said:

> > @"Lottie.5370" said:

>

> > Who needs more than 6 gear templates for one character??

>

> Pretty much everybody that plays WvW

>

> I run 14 different builds on roaming ranger alone, each with different gear configuration.

If you run 14 different builds, have you considered minimizing the number of builds you would actually need a template for?

Im just hoping when people say i have 10+ or 20+ builds its not having a build that you change where only 1 small minor thing changes like a utility slot, or a single trait or two or just a single weapon.

I get that you can have quite a few builds in pvp/wvw and raid situations but i mean 14 for a single character is a lot.

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> > @"susana.7814" said:

> > > @"yoni.7015" said:

> > > Why open another thread? There is an existing one.

> >

> > Probably because people want to actually be heard.

>

> That’s definitely part of it, but also yoni you’re correct there are multiple topics on build templates but this is more about arc build templates and how it will be affected.

>

> If there was a way to keep arc builds I wouldn’t have any issues.

You do understand from a business standpoint how much this does not make any sense. There would not be any issues for you but there would be issues for anet its kind of a half and half exchange here

Issue for you is that you wont get to keep arc templates

Issue for anet is they have to deal with all the unhappy customers who dont like how they are making the system.

> @"Forty Keks.9620" said:

> okay so can somebody tell me why the (fully modeled and ready) spider mount was scrapped for being "too scary" yet THIS [https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sikandar](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sikandar "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sikandar") is allowed to exist? this is literal nightmare fuel in weapon form.

I wish i had not clicked that link... not even sure this is SFW lol

yeah... idk... granted if they said "We are adding a wasp skyscale or skimmer" i wouldn't be a fan because where i live those things are vicious monsters with up to half inch long stingers...

Its just to common for people to have a phobia of spiders

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > This is interesting because you wont pay for extra slots but you will pay for passage through pay wall to give you access to a feature that anet basically going to give out for free in less than a month? Do you see how silly this sounds?

> Oh, i of course would expect that feature, when contained in an expac, to be full and complete. Just as you expected the elite spec to be full and complete, not something that would later need additional gem payments to unlock skills and traits.

i still think you are missguided in your thoughts

elite specs are full and complete but if you dont have a certain base profession character made and have no extra character slots, you cant use that new elite, anet knows this and gives you a free character slot with the xpack in the event you need it to make that one profession you dont have just for an elite spec you might want.

if you want to modify that character with unique features like new faces, hair styles, eye colors, etc you need to pay extra ;)

If you want a specific unique skin that you cannot normally get through the core game or living world you need to pay extra ;)

This new feature will also be complete it will be a fully working system in which you will be given slots set amount of slots for free

If you want additional slots you need to pay extra ;)

Same, difference ^

>

> > How dare you add a feature i really want for free but charge me extra for if i want more than the base allowed slots

> > But im willing to pay new x pack price for that feature (which would be implemented the same way more than likely which still requires the purchase of additional slots)

> > lol wiat.. I let you get me off topic again ok seriously im not answering anything else that refers to build templates here this is getting ridiculous.

> > > > So lets take 30-50$ ( roughly the cost of a fresh xpack) the price i think, now take 33% of that price tag

> > > > thats roughly 10$ to 15$ and this is assuming anet is nice and offers them as one bundle. (still potentially cheaper than a single perma gathering tool that will see much more use than a gathering tool.)

> > > Again, why should that be different than build templates? Because i still think the only difference is that one is important _for you_ and one isn't.

> > Off topic

> > > > IF you dont agree that you wouldn't pay x amount of $ for new elites thats your choice and you have a right to feel that way but i do realize even through anets makes bad mistakes or choices from time to time they are still living people who need to pay bills and provide for their families like we do. The servers dont stay up for free and we dont pay a sub fee.

> > >

> > > Why not pay 500 USD for the espec pack (or 60 USD per espec if bought separately), then? Your argument would absolutely support that kind of pricing. Or perhaps your concern about Anet devs ends where _your_ money gets involved?

> > >

> > Uhhhh what??? Are you cherry picking nonsense at this point? I never said such numbers.

> You did say to me that i shouldn't complain about similar amount for templates,

i told you you shouldnt complain when something is being given to you for free thats correct.

>but should shut up and start farming.

No i did not say to "shut up" and start farming thats incorrect.

>Why that amount of money is okay for me to pay,

I think you should pay whatever you think is the correct amount you want to pay but if anets price is higher simply dont pay it.

>and me not willing to pay it is me not caring about poor devs,

Incorrect, i simply wanted to make sure you are not confusing disappointment with under appreciation

>but you get shocked when i propose it for something you want?

Because what you proposed is ideally paying money up front to get the same thing with the possibility of still having to pay for extra after the fact vs getting it for free and pay for extra.

>Do you not care about those very same poor devs?

I already addressed my feelings on this twice

> @"AgentMoore.9453" said:

> Oof.

>

> > Bug Fix:

> * Updated the Gem Store banner for the Legionnaire's Chair.

>

> ArenaNet, don't do that. That wasn't a bug. And honestly, even if other races looked small on a Charr chair, that would have been accurate to your lore, your world, and the people who have chosen to play Charr and pay for race-themed items like this one. You should recall the item, scale it correctly for Charr, and release it again with a short apology for any confusion. Even if you meant to release the chair this small, it was still not the right thing to do.

>

> Don't act like the picture was the mistake; I say this as someone who wants to buy stuff from you.

This ^ x100

Ive been looking so forward to a charr culture themed chair ever since the asura one came out some time ago.

My charr

My body

My credit card

My paypal account....

All of the above were ready.... ????

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > This is a True statement how ever an elite spec has more impact than the things you are comparing to it.

> For you. That's highly subjective, though

hmmm no thats fact i even gave you an example

You can even go back and look at the way anet introduced the x packs and elites

Elite specs always take up a healthy amount of the ad space as a the new features.

Elites specs are heavily weighted in this game its not subjective its fact.

While you dont need them to play the game they make a vast difference in every game mode and in all content from open world, to raids, to pvp, to wvw, fractals, etc.

Elite profession specs are a dominate force feature of the game now.

> > You have to remember there are people who bought HoT and PoF specifically for the elites, there are people who do not care about pve story and there are pvp and wvw mains who use the elites and bought the x packs specifically for the elites. Elites have always been a major selling point as 33% of the overall package.

> I am 100% sure that if build templates were an expansion feature, there would be people buying that expac for them alone as well. I know i would.

This is interesting because you wont pay for extra slots but you will pay for passage through pay wall to give you access to a feature that anet basically going to give out for free in less than a month? Do you see how silly this sounds?

How dare you add a feature i really want for free but charge me extra for if i want more than the base allowed slots

But im willing to pay new x pack price for that feature (which would be implemented the same way more than likely which still requires the purchase of additional slots)

lol wiat.. I let you get me off topic again ok seriously im not answering anything else that refers to build templates here this is getting ridiculous.

> > So lets take 30-50$ ( roughly the cost of a fresh xpack) the price i think, now take 33% of that price tag

> > thats roughly 10$ to 15$ and this is assuming anet is nice and offers them as one bundle. (still potentially cheaper than a single perma gathering tool that will see much more use than a gathering tool.)

> Again, why should that be different than build templates? Because i still think the only difference is that one is important _for you_ and one isn't.

Off topic

> > IF you dont agree that you wouldn't pay x amount of $ for new elites thats your choice and you have a right to feel that way but i do realize even through anets makes bad mistakes or choices from time to time they are still living people who need to pay bills and provide for their families like we do. The servers dont stay up for free and we dont pay a sub fee.

>

> Why not pay 500 USD for the espec pack (or 60 USD per espec if bought separately), then? Your argument would absolutely support that kind of pricing. Or perhaps your concern about Anet devs ends where _your_ money gets involved?

>

Uhhhh what??? Are you cherry picking nonsense at this point? I never said such numbers.

Secondly if anet does something in the game i like they get rewarded with my money for it if i feel the price is worth having said item or feature i will buy gems for said item or feature.

If they dont do it to my liking then they dont get my money its short sweet and simple. (charr chair as prime example, not charging my account gems for that if a charr cant fit in it properly.)

You **may** give feed back on why they did or did not deserve your money and what they could possibly do to salvage the sale or help please you but anet looks at the majority and if the majority sees no issue or it works for the majority then guess what... its probably not going to change.

You **may** be upset that they are charging you for extra slots if you wish (you dont have to pay, maybe anet will run a sale on them for the first few weeks)

You **may not** be upset about the idea of being charged for the base feature, as thats not true. If a feature comes to the game for free but has limitations which many features do and you want the most bang for you buck, then you need to put in some buck before you get the bang.

Lets not confused being **disappointed** by the devs choices and being **under appreciative** of the devs work in general as the are not the same thing.

Pay for extra for what you need.... or dont

Change your build manually by holding gear in your inventory... or dont

Use alt characters.... or dont

Minimize the number of builds you actually need a template for... or dont

You have options

You are getting the base feature regardless for free.

Seriously if you reply and start going off topic from "Would you pay for elite specs?" about build templates I'm not replying to you again. Im tired about hearing about it.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > - 3 it depends on the cost if its only an elite spec and there is no real content behind it it needs to be kinda reasonable.

> > > > > What _is_ reasonable? Last time i saw you were trying to persuade me that 500 euro/USD for something offering far less advantage and having even less content behind it is reasonable, so i would guess at least twice that would be okay for an espec, right?

> > > >

> > > > Ok first off dont put words in my mouth i didnt tell you to spend or that you should spend 500 euro / USD you assumed a price based the idea of buying every thing at once on unconfirmed numbers (the worst case situation if anything) \

> > > I actually went with the lowest of the costs they were discussing in the stream. With 400 gems per unlock, not 800. So yeah, definitely the worst case...

> > This is still not confirmed for all we know the price of some of this stuff could be 120 gems its a non visual luxury feature that no one will know you own unless you flaunt it around.

> You probably missed the point where they repeatedly mentioned that they consider the slots to be worth as much as bag slots/bank tabs. That's where the 400-800 gems range comes from. If they haven't mentioned prices, it's only because they're still not sure at which end of that range they should price them.

thats for the equipment tab slots only because those do function as bag slots basically i would assume

Tabs that hold your traits... probably not

Tabs that hold your builds account wide... probably not

Wait and see you are now going way off topic

>

> > Yes Seriously? A new elite spec in gw2 is = to a new character or class in any other game.

> > Depending on what games you play bonus new characters or classes generally will cost you money even if they stand alone sellers.

> Is a new class in another game worth only 3 times the price of a single template slot? I am not doubtful at the price you arrived at. I am doubtful at the relative price between those things. Because it can only mean that either the class is way too cheap, or that the template slot is way overpriced. I'll let you decide which would be in this case.

Off topic

The question was would you pay for an elite spec **"ok"**

You then asked me what i thought they would be worth **"ok"**

Compares what i think it will be worth and compares it to unconfirmed build template price **"way off topic"**

i wont carry this any further so long as you keep derailing the topic of this particular post

>

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > What even gets me more is how people think extra 400 gem slots or templets are too much as nice to haves but own (in some cases multiple) 1000 gem mining, logging, and harvesting tools which are essentially almost the same luxury concept. "Nice to have but not required"

> especs are also not required, you know.

This is a True statement how ever an elite spec has more impact than the things you are comparing to it.

You have to remember there are people who bought HoT and PoF specifically for the elites, there are people who do not care about pve story and there are pvp and wvw mains who use the elites and bought the x packs specifically for the elites. Elites have always been a major selling point as 33% of the overall package.

So lets take 30-50$ ( roughly the cost of a fresh xpack) the price i think, now take 33% of that price tag

thats roughly 10$ to 15$ and this is assuming anet is nice and offers them as one bundle. (still potentially cheaper than a single perma gathering tool that will see much more use than a gathering tool.)

In the event they are sold separate or dont release all at the same time you could buy multiple elites for possibly less than single set of perma gathering tools still!.

Elite specs usable in all 3 game modes without question.

Gathering tools mainly used in pve and to a lesser extent in wvw.

IF you dont agree that you wouldn't pay x amount of $ for new elites thats your choice and you have a right to feel that way but i do realize even through anets makes bad mistakes or choices from time to time they are still living people who need to pay bills and provide for their families like we do. The servers dont stay up for free and we dont pay a sub fee.

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > >

> > > > Nerfing Tether will nerf what brings sustain and any form of damage to spellbreaker, we don't want that to happen because it's not really the problem. It's how often and accessible it is. They could actually bring back damage to FC and it wouldn't be that OP since the skill will hold more value.

> > >

> > > Magebane has a 12s ICD and only pulses 2 stacks of might for 6s in PvP, 3 stacks for 8s in WvW. So how would you prefer to make it more inaccessible? Less Might, shorter duration, or longer ICD? Bear in mind that it only is accessible if you have adrenaline for a burst and hit with said burst.

> >

> > The ICD is quite fine as it actually lines in with the 12 traited FC request, to be fair I really don't have a problem with Magebane Tether itself as it does provide sustain (Evades) on par with Riposting Shadows. FC is only the real issue as it behaves like a very offensive extra evade that is pretty much on demand anytime with such a low cooldown, actually being lower than one dodge itself, ADDING to the fact that it gets more dodges when successful is great but so often is the big offender when FC isn't just the only thing that can trigger Tether alone and earn more dodges, having one skill every 9 seconds that behaves like one with benefits is just too much in general.

> >

> > Makes the whole ordeal very low risk yet high reward.

>

> So then you'd rather FC have increased CD then?

Thats rather interesting Shao because i think the opposite i think magebane is a bigger problem than FC itself as Magebane when allowed to remain teathered rewards the warrior greatly if the person linked tries to deny this by breaking it the warrior is still rewarded with a free CC that gap closes. Ideally once its attached magebane heavy rewarded compared to the other grandmasters.

When you spectate a decent warrior and realize just how much might, healing, and endurance magebane allows alone through synergy of other traits you realize just how strong of a tool it is. This is before you stack other things ontop of it.

Full counter alone can be baited and has counter-play across roughly 3-4 different professions (if you include another spellbreaker itself)

Mage bane on the other hand is a heavily loaded tool,

- reveals

- cc's when broken

- gap closes when broken

- generates rapid might which leads to rapid healing and endurance gain

- can pull through stability in some cases via [Dispelling Force](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dispelling_Force "Dispelling Force")

The only con to magebane (thankfully) is that it can only stick to one person at a time.

I think the might generation on magebane could be toned back or slowed down just a touch but FC is fine as is. :#

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > - 3 it depends on the cost if its only an elite spec and there is no real content behind it it needs to be kinda reasonable.

> > > What _is_ reasonable? Last time i saw you were trying to persuade me that 500 euro/USD for something offering far less advantage and having even less content behind it is reasonable, so i would guess at least twice that would be okay for an espec, right?

> >

> > Ok first off dont put words in my mouth i didnt tell you to spend or that you should spend 500 euro / USD you assumed a price based the idea of buying every thing at once on unconfirmed numbers (the worst case situation if anything) \

> I actually went with the lowest of the costs they were discussing in the stream. With 400 gems per unlock, not 800. So yeah, definitely the worst case...

This is still not confirmed for all we know the price of some of this stuff could be 120 gems its a non visual luxury feature that no one will know you own unless you flaunt it around. You also still assumed on the idea of buying max allowed slots all at once which is probably something most people will not do. We dont know the prices so lets move on.

>

> >

> > A reasonable cost coud be anything from 800-1600 or 10-20$ (assuming the content for sale is made properly)

> So, a reasonable piece for one espec is just double-triple the (reasonable, according to you) cost of a single template unlock? Seriously?

Yes Seriously? A new elite spec in gw2 is = to a new character or class in any other game.

Depending on what games you play bonus new characters or classes generally will cost you money even if they stand alone sellers.

Me: **looks at other games**

Other games **charging 10+ usd for a single new character or class that does the same role as another character or class with a different play style**

Me **looks at other people who happily pay for such things**

Me **sees new character or new class i like that does the same role as another character/class but with new mechanics and different play style**

Me **happily pays money to own and enjoy that character or class**

Yes i have come to the conclusion that this could be reasonable price in my personal opinion.

You dont have to agree but you are certainly not entitled to think you should get it for free. IF you are offered it for free than congrats because the idea that this cant happen is not impossible but you should be humble to some extent.

IF something is being offered that you really like/want at a general reasonable price you will pay to get it. If you dont think the price is reasonable then it means that

- 1 you cant afford it at the moment and should save or wait for a sale promotion

- 2 you do not want the offered items as badly as you initially thought and have decided you can do without

- 3 you might be over entitled (i assume its one of the first two though)

Edit: You should not even compare this to part to build template cost

An elite spec which is something that has a direct impact on the environment and game modes in which you play it is not the same as a "Nice to have feature" that wont have an obvious impact on the environment and game modes in which it might be used.

You visibly see and react to how elite specs differ as i said above no one will know you are using a build templet or see how many you own unless you flaunt them. I notice when some one swaps from tempest to weaver while doing riads, i dont notice if the person used arc "build templet to do it" The price points on things like this should be night and day.

What even gets me more is how people think extra 400 gem slots or templets are too much as nice to haves but own (in some cases multiple) 1000 gem mining, logging, and harvesting tools which are essentially almost the same luxury concept. "Nice to have but not required"

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > - 3 it depends on the cost if its only an elite spec and there is no real content behind it it needs to be kinda reasonable.

> What _is_ reasonable? Last time i saw you were trying to persuade me that 500 euro/USD for something offering far less advantage and having even less content behind it is reasonable, so i would guess at least twice that would be okay for an espec, right?

Ok first off dont put words in my mouth i didnt tell you to spend or that you should spend 500 euro / USD you assumed a price based the idea of buying every thing at once on unconfirmed numbers (the worst case situation if anything)

A reasonable cost coud be anything from 800-1600 or 10-20$ (assuming the content for sale is made properly)

No one wants to pay full price for broken or damage goods.

Another thing to consider would be how often new elites would be added to the game and if they would remain at the same cost as previous elites even if the previous elites were nerfed to make room fo the new ones.

For me 10-15$ per spec, is not much at all. Thats eating in for lunch 1 or 2 days instead of going out with coworkers.

Now if you dont work your perception of this could be drastically different from mine.

If you dont like the elite spec being offered you might not consider it to be worth that much. (i am not immune to this) i would probably not pay 10-15$ for an engi. elite spec cause rarely play any of the current ones as is engi as a whole just does not interest me.

As i said though THEY NEED TO BE DONE RIGHT we cant have elites that are sold with skills that are broken (not in the op sense) broken as in they just dont do what they are suppose to do. Or are animated poorly or animations are bugged on certain races (its happened in the past) etc.