ZDragon.3046

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> The shouts are balanced. They become extremely good when Augury of Death is picked.

>

> - YSIM! is the best heal for Reaper (4700 HP + 8% LF every 17s in a 1v1 and 5000HP + 20% LF every 13s in a 5v5 (or vs. a mesmer) - you can basically use it after every shroud and it's almost impossible to interupt).

Dont agree on a few points, it not the best heal as offers 0 condi clear and considering repaers life force cost has increased since this shout entered the game and its life force gains on use have not i cant agree. In terms of a mesmer which is likely a mirage their condi pressure will melt every bit of hp you get back in the middle of a fight before you even even finish the after cast if not more (under confusion)

Generally YSIM is good in pve in pvp/wvw its pretty so so... generally the meta is too condi saturated for it right now.

> - CTTB! is strong and on top of that allows mind games like dodge baiting.

True i feel like just a tiny bit of QoL would make it better though.

> - SUFFER! has only minor effects but plenty of them, so the shout is extremely versatile (10 to 13% damage boost, condi transfer, CC, good to setup or prevent kiting).

Overall its not that great, reapers chill application is pretty low unless you heavily invest with curses and runes the damage bonus you are counting here is kind iffy and thats from a trait when looking at the shout itself and talking about the balance of it... its not very good. ITs chip damage with some condi clear that said its not uncommon to use this in a team fight and still not clear all condis on you as its max targets is 5 and its easy to have more than 5 condis on you at any given time.

> - NCSY! is a hardcounter to the whole guardian class and in general a nice 12% damage and 24% crit chance boost when Decimate Defenses is picked.

The cast time makes it pretty bad if the cast time was cut from this shout it would likely be used alot more. With it having a cast time it makes it hard to make its unblock-able effect actually usable on most other classes. Note if a shout is only good against 1 class then its not that great. Even so you once again applied a trait which is not part of the shout itself. Overall this shout could use some love and QoL. Most other unblockable skills/ attacks are pretty much instant for the event of countering sudden blocks. For someone to start using a block, you precive they are doing this and react (Which takes time no matter how fast you are) then start to use the skill which has a cast time then mount an attack simply takes too much time. Most blocks will have expired or nearly expired by this time. The only reason this does not apply to guardian is because their blocks have longer durations than most and their blocks come from a boon which often has a long duration. The idea that you in most cases need to throw this skill out semi blindly in guess that your foe might try to block makes it too situational and lowers its value in a utility slot. Its great if you guess right but oddly pointless if you guess wong against all other classes. Because of its design not allowing it to be an on reaction style skill its just not as good as you are making it out to be.

> - RISE! is a bit overnerfed (used to have a 40s cooldown in every game mode and a 50% damage reduction) and only niche these days but still great for minion masters.

Pointless shout in pvp, decent in pve still even if you are not a minion master. Ive use this to sustain heavy damage in t4 fractals when healing was a bit on the low side.

> - YAAW! is situational but can be a life saver (low cooldown stunbreak + weakness). It should have a 20s base cooldown to be in line with the other shouts. When Blighter's Boon was a thing the LF generation was nice.

This shout is average not good not bad just "good enough" Once again dont count traits as a part of the shout itself. ITs simply weakness, breakstun, and some might thats all.

>

> YSIM! and CTTB! + Augury of Death are a must pick in every single reaper build I use and I call viable. Consume Condition Reapers are freekills for every decent player. I do often use SUFFER! or NCSY! right next to Spectral Armor and Spectral Walk as 3rd utility skill.

Dont agree you will get melted by condi burst builds if you do this. With condi mirage and theif and firebrands all running strong condi specs right now its unwise to pinch all your clear on spectral walk alone.

> @"XECOR.2814" said:

> We have a trait that reduces shout cd. Thats it. We dont get fancy things.

Warriors also have this hue hue

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> One of Lich Forms biggest issues IMO is the 1 second cast time. Grim Specter would be pretty nice to use if it weren't locked behind a 2 second cast (despite the skill itself only having 3/4 second). Summon Madness could be okay were it not 2.75 seconds of cast time it's locked behind.

Pretty much the only 2 skills i use for dps boosting in end game content which dont feel as bad with quickness on cast but the even with quickness transforming into lich is kinda iffy

That said if they break lich down like plague lands we will likely end up with a skill not as good as either one of these combined so im a bit iffy on the subject of changing these days lol

See death magic rework we all waited 5 years for "OOOF"

**Plaguelands**

To be honest is not that bad but yeah its not great like so many other parts of necromancer

* its too slow to ramp up to being a threat. its really not a threat till after the 4th or 5th pulse and because it pulses so slow like all parts of condi necro its damage ramps super slow

* its covers a fixed area that cannot move with the necromancer or at the necromancers command.

* It has no combo field functionality although you think it would have one.

* Its missing the slow condition

Overall its decent but not great

**Lich Form**

Is a bit of a mess. Its a love/hate in my opinion. Necromancers having an elite skill that transforms is not exactly a bad thing how ever the way its delivered is off the mark. I do like some of the idea behind the skill but overall its considerably underpowered when compared to something like rampage with over double the cooldown.

Design wise each race should have had its own unique base look when the transform takes place (male and female) by transform i mean more like a kit transform so think like how like holosmith puts on a outfit skin basically in photon forge mode. Something similar but dark and semi lich like that happens on your character for a short duration. Between male and female as well as all the races the skinned look can share some qualities like the armor parts glowing eyes etc etc etc but overall not everyone should become a massive floaty man that plays with your camera and makes you feel slower than normal because its bigger despite moving the same speed.

* The cooldown of this skill is beyond out of date and far too high all on its own which makes the skill feel too punishing to use

* The skills inside the lich kit are not strong enough. Skill 1 is ok for its damage only though, Skill 2 is a joke, Skill 3 roots the caster making it dangerous and clunky to use, Skill 4 is great for end game dps boost only, skill 5 is useful for instantly healing in a pinch but its still pretty lackluster in terms of punishment on a foe and reward on the caster.

* the 15% return of life force on the skill ending is completely unneeded and pointless

Overall its not very good but i do use it in alot of my raid setups for burst dps. Sadly even the cd makes hurt to use here. I pop it use 2 skills and exit it and proceed back to my rotation. Thats about the biggest use for lich form right now imo. Its too punishing to use in pvp / wvw and not good enough to want to maintain use for its full duration in pve.

IF this skill just became a massive selfish dps booster with just a visual effect or skin transform instead of a real transform I would be much happer with it (cough blade and soul warlock soul burn hue hue)

**Flesh Golem**

Is better than it use to be and it is actually useful for a-lot of raid situations where heavy cc damage is needed. The golem can do some of the most cc damage available as a single skill on big hit box bosses. However...

* Like most minions its very clunky and slow

* Its damage is not at all impressive even when you invest traits into it

* In pvp it dies far too quickly and its charge is lack luster compared any other elite that inflicts a cc be it on a single target or area.

* For some reason the charge skill's final hit is the only hit that deals massive damage rather than any hit the golem makes during its duration of the charge, considering the golem does not stop when it hits a target and goes through it, YOU ALMOST NEVER hit your target with the final strike no matter how big its hit box might be.

I think the golem could be very solid if a few QoL changes are done to it but overall as it sits right now its one of the best and most flexible core elites you can take for solo play, group content, and end game content. Its not a very fun or satisfying elite to use but it works.

Personally i would like to see golem charge work more like the warriors bull charge followed by the golem performing a frenzy attack that attempts to strike the knocked down target multiple times for heavy damage.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> I believe, the 3s CD reduction was removed because of scourge. So, What about scourge?

>

> In itself, _Foot in the grave_ isn't a bad trait, it's just that it's not an attractive trait. I think it would be smarter to switch it with _vital persistence_ to make it attractive.

But its still not really that attractive imo when you swap them all you have done is made Vital persistence less attractive. Im also not sure the current version of VP is worthy of a grandmaster slot.

FitG is just outdated and could really use a direct buff in terms of power

I would suggest adding more utility even if the activation of that utility requires a trade on the necormancers part as other skills often do. Perhaps the bonus effect only triggers if the trait actually breaks a stun.

Side note i dont consider dhuumfire all that good either personally its decent with scourge, modest with reaper, and very underwhelming with core. To be frank all reaper and core should also have their own versions of how this trait functions imo with reaper keeping the current version and core getting a version that inflicts more than 1 stack per life blast.

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

>

> >How ever 400 hp per condi or 200 with no cd is considerably stronger than Demonic Defiance which reverses the roles. Which will lead to asking for buffs for Demonic Defiance as this is only 2 seconds of resistances which is 2 ticks of conditions every 5 seconds which could be not alot or alot depending on when the trait is triggered every 5 seconds.

>

> My mistake, it's possible to have 13 seconds of Resistance given you do the math correctly in a solo situation which is not counting team situations and without boon duration or Rune. Sorry, I wasn't thinking of what I actually do nowadays.

>

> * Spirit Boon as you kick in Demon. 2 Seconds.

> * Pain Absorption is 2 seconds and triggers Demonic Defiance. 4 Seconds.

> * Empowering Misery has no ICD with Demonic Defiance. 2 Seconds.

> * ICD past 5 seconds thus, depending what you choose to do and if you care to have more, Pain Absorption for 4 Seconds again.

> * If you're Herald, can swap back to Glint, True Nature - Dragon can extend up to another 3 seconds if you care to have more Resistance on yourself and the one you gave with Pain Absorption to your team than Transfer from True Nature - Demon but that's a few cleansing from Facet to the team and potent transfer lost.

> * If you're Core, you have Ancient Echo that can give that 3 seconds without having to Legend Swap.

>

> Far from it, Replenishing Despair it's still extremely weak given that you will still take damage from the conditions as they are applied with Power or the Condition itself. All it does is minimize the damage because the only resistance that will be available is from Spirit Boon, Pain Absorption or Ancient Echo (Core) which is ineffective without the trait. Having the trait set that way effectively benefits spam in another way for those that will invest in traits like Versed In Stone with Jalis for Vengeful Hammer while also Breakrazor's Bastion with Righteous Rebel on Renegade is another one. Encouraging all sorts of builds to finally be played more often while you have no reliable Resistance time.

>

> I would prefer Replenishing Despair to be like Might Makes Right rather than just another Assassin's Annihilation or Steadfast Rejuvenation, because it's risky to even go for that many conditions and even if they buffed it to be 400 Healing per condition every 1 seconds, it would still be weaker than Demonic Defiance altogether. Regeneration with Facet of Light alone on Sage stats heals for that much every 2 seconds that you would have Resistance. Also just like any other build, investing in just Healing Power for one trait would make the player inherently ineffective to deal damage anyway because Resistance is what allows Condition Revenant to deal so much damage in the first place, this all basically changes the play style of it.

>

> 200 HP per condition applied with no ICD, only possible with 2k+ Healing Power which is not achievable in PvP and in WvW is a waste of stats because you are already likely to die faster of condition pressure without Resistance anyway while those stats could be way more effectively used. Revenants can only cleanse so much without Glint and even with Ventari that is already weak, Transfer without Resistance are weak and riskier.

>

> Playing with the new trait drastically change the playstyle. Instead of being an actual condition bomb that Demonic Defiance allows you to be, it would be more viable to run with Diabolic Inferno and purely do the damage all along without Transfers and you don't want to get stuck with many conditions even if it heals you because you don't have the means to effectively carry them to do damage and not lose health at the same time.

But even might makes right is a grandmaster

Replenishing despair is not... this is why you cant expect the same healing regardless of how the trait works mechanically you cant have an adept thats effectively as strong as other classes sustain grandmasters.

As long as the trait is an adept dont expect too much. Unless you can point out another adept which also heals just as much as your idea is looking to point out that works on a similar mechanic (requiring you to get hit or hit someone) which is as strong as what you are wanting to make it i simply cant agree no matter how you try to break it all down.

If you want more defense against conditions take Demonic Defiance

If you want a bit more healing against power builds which still inflict conditions but dont inflict as much damaging conditions take Replenishing Despair

If you want to just go more glass take Venom Enhancement

I wont agree with your reasoning to buff Replenishing as much as you are wanting so long as its an adept just because it does not compete with Demonic Defiance in terms of fighting off condition damage when thats clearly not that point of the trait.

Its a lesser healing over time that can be seen arguably as a good trait against any build thats not condi in terms of aiding sustain (even more so depending on what other trait lines you stack it with.)

Everyone might agree the trait needs a small buff or could be reworked however no one is going to agree that you should give it the strength of a grandmaster trait when its in an adept slot.

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > > > because of recent ban of arcdps altered for templates, let there be a list of what is not allowed and allowed.

> > > >

> > > > ^ this kind of says enough

> > > > if in truth the bans are confirmed (assuming anet gives an offical post) people who tried to alter templates then those people should be banned (for at least some time)

> > > > This is likely one reason why anet did not simply copy arc's work because you have people who break into stuff and get around the rules then give the surprised pickachu face when they get punished for breaking said rules.

> > > >

> > > > Why on earth anyone thought it would be a good idea to try and modify disabled arc templates as a ez work around would be ok is beyond reasonable.

> > > >

> > > > **Dont drive without a license**

> > > > Ok ill just travel its not the same as driving

> > > > **Gets pulled over and punished for driving**

> > > > Officer no I'm traveling not driving

> > > > No you cant punish me... **attempts to drive off from the officer**

> > > > **Gets snatched out of car**

> > > > **surprised pickachu face**

> > > >

> > > > Like i dont want to be mean but as they say where i live stupidity should hurt.

> > >

> > > The anet response was already linked above. It was NOT for arcdps, it was someone selling PvP boosting services to people and was using a cheating program to win matches to boost them. That person gets banned, and the accounts that user had logged into, as such, the people who paid for the service never used the cheating software.... but they get banned and start posting "but I only ever used arcdps, so thats why i was banned". When that had nothing to do with the ban, they paid for in game services with real money (against the ToS), they account shared to the hacker, the hacker then used the cheating programs to win (also all against the ToS) and boost their PvP rank. More or less this is people title hunting who don't want to spend the time to get good at PvP, so they pay someone. This isn't anything new to GW2 or games at all, it's actually a very commonly sold service.

> >

> > I see in any case the dev also talks about arc dps and any other 3rd party tools below that. I think its clear to say that the gray area is pretty crystal clear.

> > At your own risk means you can be subject to ban at any time and thus no one at anet will never officially say directly to any player that its approved and "ok'ed" to use as something could change at any time that warrants banning.

> >

> > But its good to know this instance was over pvp cheaters we can always use less of those.

>

> Yes, as that software is outside of their control. They are not, as it stands right now, going to ban for arcdps, however, if a feature is added that breaks ToS, you can be. That is for each user to figure out, and is why it's "at your own risk".

Sadly i dont think alot of people understand this as clear as they should. Considering several people out right admitted that there is a modified version of the killed arc template that actually still works some people should be more careful if they value their accounts. Overall i would never risk my seven years of playing to do something silly like that lol.

It aint worth it to save a few clicks. But thanks for the helpful pointers on the links above.

> @"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > because of recent ban of arcdps altered for templates, let there be a list of what is not allowed and allowed.

> >

> > ^ this kind of says enough

> > if in truth the bans are confirmed (assuming anet gives an offical post) people who tried to alter templates then those people should be banned (for at least some time)

> > This is likely one reason why anet did not simply copy arc's work because you have people who break into stuff and get around the rules then give the surprised pickachu face when they get punished for breaking said rules.

> >

> > Why on earth anyone thought it would be a good idea to try and modify disabled arc templates as a ez work around would be ok is beyond reasonable.

> >

> > **Dont drive without a license**

> > Ok ill just travel its not the same as driving

> > **Gets pulled over and punished for driving**

> > Officer no I'm traveling not driving

> > No you cant punish me... **attempts to drive off from the officer**

> > **Gets snatched out of car**

> > **surprised pickachu face**

> >

> > Like i dont want to be mean but as they say where i live stupidity should hurt.

>

> The anet response was already linked above. It was NOT for arcdps, it was someone selling PvP boosting services to people and was using a cheating program to win matches to boost them. That person gets banned, and the accounts that user had logged into, as such, the people who paid for the service never used the cheating software.... but they get banned and start posting "but I only ever used arcdps, so thats why i was banned". When that had nothing to do with the ban, they paid for in game services with real money (against the ToS), they account shared to the hacker, the hacker then used the cheating programs to win (also all against the ToS) and boost their PvP rank. More or less this is people title hunting who don't want to spend the time to get good at PvP, so they pay someone. This isn't anything new to GW2 or games at all, it's actually a very commonly sold service.

I see in any case the dev also talks about arc dps and any other 3rd party tools below that. I think its clear to say that the gray area is pretty crystal clear.

At your own risk means you can be subject to ban at any time and thus no one at anet will never officially say directly to any player that its approved and "ok'ed" to use as something could change at any time that warrants banning.

But its good to know this instance was over pvp cheaters we can always use less of those.

> @"Doto.6357" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > Losing the ability to have up to 6 seconds Resistance with no boon duration back to back, stopping all effects such as Vulnerability that is easily stacked is more than enough given that if you pick this trait, Resistance will be something that you rarely ever have without Spirit Boon and Pain Absorption, not counting the Runes that are an extremely important slot for the Revenant. It also breaks synergy with Demonic Resistance that on Paper with the added Resistance effect of denying anything any Professions would have extra effects that adds damage for specific conditions, most notably no 25% added damage from 25 Vulnerability also, with Protection 33% and 20% added Damage Reduction is a lot of mitigation

> > >

> > > Resistance is an extremely powerful boon, yet it's still there in the Adept Tier as well. You can trust me on the fact that "this" idea won't be broken as I know very well from A to Z how Revenant works overall and that not having any Resistance makes you pretty worthless if you want to be Condition based, that Venom Enhancement is a very powerful trait also used in bruiser builds, that there is also powerful synergies with Core, Herald and Renegade that would benefit from this trait further but not exactly be far from OP whether you had to pick either of these 3 traits. It often and always come to player skill, knowledge and risk coming forward to it.

> > >

> > > It's a fair trade to get healed for any conditions/stacks applied with no cooldown because the incoming damage will easily start to overshadow that sustain (Power and Condition) whether you have max healing power or not, this one doesn't go higher than 200 in PvE/WvW and 140 in PvP, that's if you wanna be useless of course. Unlike many professions, Revenant does have harder choices of traits to pick filling certain roles without becoming worthless on the rest.

> > >

> > > Remember, it doesn't mitigate ANYTHING, it's just raw heal.

> > >

> > > * Power and Condition Damage will still get all their benefits on you.

> > > * Power will always hurt you more than without Resistance because of the other conditions on you.

> > > * Condition Damage will always hurt you more over time than without Resistance because of the other conditions as well as it's own damage constantly on going.

> > >

> > > Demonic Defiance is that good and Replenishing Despair deserves this buff. Bursts of 5k healing considering a perfect scenario on a blast of effects that Power and Condition is more that likely to take it away on the spot is reasonable when you can stop yourself from dying altogether with the other option.

> > >

> > > You don't pick corruption if you're not going to do or work with conditions in the slightest. It's a waste of damage, traits and sustain altogether. Be better with Retribution in other scenario's as well as even Devastation with other legends for that regard because avoidance is already considered a better option in those meta's, this is also why Condition Revenant is highly frowned upon, because it forces you to play like some sort of masochist to be effective.

> >

> > I hate to say it but while i think it does deserves buffs not as heavy of a buff as you are calling out sorry no.

> > ITs not a grand master trait and the level of power you want to give it is 100% on part with the power of a grandmaster sustain trait.

> > IF the trait was a grandmaster i could agree with you maybe but as it sits right now i still say, yes buff it, your idea/ level of buff , no thats too strong for its slot.

>

> The reason he wants to buff it like that is because right now it competes with a trait that completely negates condition damage. To actually be a viable alternative, this trait would not need to do a lot of healing.

Which is fine but his numbers are high.

As some one pointed out not every condition is damaging and can trigger this trait.

Power classes even apply a good range of conditions like vuln, weakness, blind, cripple etc.

To have these kinds of condition procking 400-500 hp heals on an adept level trait every second or 200 hp with no cd is not acceptable by any means.

Ideally either thie trait needs to be changed to work as more of a counter to power directly or just murge this trait with the other that also helps negate condi damage and leave its numbers as is while making a new trait to replace it.

There really shouldnt be 2 traits attempting to do the same thing now that you point this out.

Perhaps thats the right play

Putting Replenishing Despair and Demonic Defiance under 1 trait without changing their mechanics/numbers which makes both of them considerably stronger when put together

A new trait is made in place of replenishing despair that provides a different functionality.

How ever 400 hp per condi or 200 with no cd is considerably stronger than Demonic Defiance which reverses the roles. Which will lead to asking for buffs for Demonic Defiance as this is only 2 seconds of resistances which is 2 ticks of conditions every 5 seconds which could be not alot or alot depending on when the trait is triggered every 5 seconds.

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> because of recent ban of arcdps altered for templates, let there be a list of what is not allowed and allowed.

^ this kind of says enough

if in truth the bans are confirmed (assuming anet gives an offical post) people who tried to alter templates then those people should be banned (for at least some time)

This is likely one reason why anet did not simply copy arc's work because you have people who break into stuff and get around the rules then give the surprised pickachu face when they get punished for breaking said rules.

Why on earth anyone thought it would be a good idea to try and modify disabled arc templates as a ez work around would be ok is beyond reasonable.

**Dont drive without a license**

Ok ill just travel its not the same as driving

**Gets pulled over and punished for driving**

Officer no I'm traveling not driving

No you cant punish me... **attempts to drive off from the officer**

**Gets snatched out of car**

**surprised pickachu face**

Like i dont want to be mean but as they say where i live stupidity should hurt.

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> 1) Condi Mirage

> 2) Rampage sb/core/tactics war

> 3) Reaper/Core necro

>

> 2 and 3 have easy access to 25 might and can often win fights by landing some lucky crit of 7k+ regardless of level of toughness

Thats not being op if its a lucky crit it means the class needs help or that you are being oblivious. Most necros wont even instantly hit 25 might like a warrior will.

Granted there are a wide number of classes who have ease access to 25 might not sure why you singled out reaper/ corn necro when other classes do it faster.

Warrior, Holo, Reaper, Herald Rev, Soul beast,

In the case of reaper/necro i would argue its might gain is justified until anet gives it more than just might, swiftness, and minimal protection thats really the only only boons it gets vs everything else which gets plentiful access to 3-4 other boons in addition to might, swiftness, protection etc.

>

> 1...does not need introduction

truth

>

> Core necro...the fear/boon rip chain can be extremely hard to deal with, close to impossible in some case, you just get condi bombed/feared to death

if it killed you as fast as mirage or theif condi and was just as safe while applying it would agree. But in truth necros damage ramps pretty slow. In truth its not applicable to fear someone to death unless you are mindless with applying stability to yourself, have 0 stun breaks or condi clear, and get hit with ever necromancer fear while not aggressing them all at the same time. Once again you have to be pretty oblivious to them for this to work as easy as you make it sound.

Pvp

Condi mirage hands down gets first place here

Condi sage symbol, mantra flash, boon splatter, firebrand

Condi theif is pretty strong (its just too safe while applying its damage imo i dont think anet can fix this without killing the build completely though)

Everything else under this is pretty manageable

Even weaver at least you can counter them by kiting and waiting for the gaps in their burst you cant do this with mirage, thief

If i had to name a 4th and a 5th spot i would say....

Any warrior build with rampage for its elite (that 1 button skill is just too free against so many classes its insane. If every elite was = in terms of power i wouldnt care but thats not the case. I dont know many other elites that have the power that rampage has it might just be in a class of its own really.)

Holo

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> Losing the ability to have up to 6 seconds Resistance with no boon duration back to back, stopping all effects such as Vulnerability that is easily stacked is more than enough given that if you pick this trait, Resistance will be something that you rarely ever have without Spirit Boon and Pain Absorption, not counting the Runes that are an extremely important slot for the Revenant. It also breaks synergy with Demonic Resistance that on Paper with the added Resistance effect of denying anything any Professions would have extra effects that adds damage for specific conditions, most notably no 25% added damage from 25 Vulnerability also, with Protection 33% and 20% added Damage Reduction is a lot of mitigation

>

> Resistance is an extremely powerful boon, yet it's still there in the Adept Tier as well. You can trust me on the fact that "this" idea won't be broken as I know very well from A to Z how Revenant works overall and that not having any Resistance makes you pretty worthless if you want to be Condition based, that Venom Enhancement is a very powerful trait also used in bruiser builds, that there is also powerful synergies with Core, Herald and Renegade that would benefit from this trait further but not exactly be far from OP whether you had to pick either of these 3 traits. It often and always come to player skill, knowledge and risk coming forward to it.

>

> It's a fair trade to get healed for any conditions/stacks applied with no cooldown because the incoming damage will easily start to overshadow that sustain (Power and Condition) whether you have max healing power or not, this one doesn't go higher than 200 in PvE/WvW and 140 in PvP, that's if you wanna be useless of course. Unlike many professions, Revenant does have harder choices of traits to pick filling certain roles without becoming worthless on the rest.

>

> Remember, it doesn't mitigate ANYTHING, it's just raw heal.

>

> * Power and Condition Damage will still get all their benefits on you.

> * Power will always hurt you more than without Resistance because of the other conditions on you.

> * Condition Damage will always hurt you more over time than without Resistance because of the other conditions as well as it's own damage constantly on going.

>

> Demonic Defiance is that good and Replenishing Despair deserves this buff. Bursts of 5k healing considering a perfect scenario on a blast of effects that Power and Condition is more that likely to take it away on the spot is reasonable when you can stop yourself from dying altogether with the other option.

>

> You don't pick corruption if you're not going to do or work with conditions in the slightest. It's a waste of damage, traits and sustain altogether. Be better with Retribution in other scenario's as well as even Devastation with other legends for that regard because avoidance is already considered a better option in those meta's, this is also why Condition Revenant is highly frowned upon, because it forces you to play like some sort of masochist to be effective.

I hate to say it but while i think it does deserves buffs not as heavy of a buff as you are calling out sorry no.

ITs not a grand master trait and the level of power you want to give it is 100% on part with the power of a grandmaster sustain trait.

IF the trait was a grandmaster i could agree with you maybe but as it sits right now i still say, yes buff it, your idea/ level of buff , no thats too strong for its slot.

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > In what world is Core Guardian; "in a great place balance wise within the meta, and even mechanically."?

Core guardian is actually very strong imo it is one of the most balanced classes in the game it has potential to kill or defend against just about any elite spec in the game while having plenty of weaknesses of its own based on how its built. This is one thing the OP said that is pretty much correct.

> >

>

> Dang my man. I think you're misunderstanding what I mean when I say something is in a great place balance wise. You've already used Holo & Herald to compare to Core Guardian, which are two notoriously out of whack specs that have been over powered for quite some time. When I say something is "In a great place balance wise" I mean that it is on a level that it should be, that it is an outstanding example of what the game balance should look like.

No offense OP but i think alot of people are missing some of your points cause of how you labeled various specs. Based on what you said here ^

The issue is that you point out a wide range of classes that are at very very very different levels of power & effectiveness and label them in the same way which leads people to think you have no idea what you are talking about.

For example you said basically

Firebrand and Mirage are in good spots or balanced and then also throw core necromancer up with a "good spot" label with them like its just as strong in any shape or form which is 100% not the case.

To be honest with you alot of your post i do agree with however there are a few key points i 100% dont agree with

Firebrand

- Yeah this is not ok by any means balanaced. Overall it does too many things at once too well. It has become one of the best jack of all trades at the moment given the person knows how to build it. Its go great sustain, tons of boon splatter, good cc chains with lock down condi to keep people in its symbols while doing moderate condi damage all at the same time. Overall it could be toned down a bit. Core Guardian is balanced I agree Firebrand is slightly over-tuned imo It may only appear balanced right now because the build that is the most effective is not very popular yet but its popularity is quickly growing I suspect it wont make it through another balance pass as people start to flag ship to it. **No its not class stacking, one firebrand alone does a lot of damage. The only true con to this spec is that its build setup is mostly melee. I dont think it needs a hard nerf but just a few adjustments, Lowering mantra charges from 3 to 2 in pvp might be a good start.**

- You also need to consider that without scourges firebrand becomes a lot more powerful as there is hardly enough boon rip/ corrupt now to really stop them from doing what ever it is they want to do anet really didnt consider what would happen by removing scourge and allowing boon heavy classes to keep there boon splatter... thats 100% an imbalance no matter how you look at it.

Daredevil

- Is actually not too bad but only from a power stand point once you throw condition into the mix that not at all skillful play. Being able to apply your main damagaing condition while playing so safely is beyond frustrating to most players and why the build is hated to such an extreme. Im not sure how anet could really handle this though i think right now about the only real counter to any dodge melee spamming class is tempest which has alot of access to condi clear and auras such as shocking aura which would counter an evasive play style like condi thief/ daredevil. However tempest as you noted is not really around its a rare find these days.

Mirage

- You already called out why its not even balanced "It does not have to die if it does not want to." Yeah thats not balanced.

Necromancer

- You really just said core necromancer is in a good spot lol thats rich. ITs the same as it always was in pvp nothing has changed to make it better or worse. Its just as "meh" as its always been. Outdated, slow, and usually a free kill for most classes. There are a few cases where 1 or 2 key skills causes a foe to get outplayed but more times than not core only works is if the enemy team is oblivious to you and ignores you for 15-20 seconds. The fact that necro is known for being focus fired first means you should know that against even a average team it wont perform as it wont be given the chance to do so. Unlike mirage who gets to choose when it wants to die necro has almost zero say so in that matter if 1 or 2 people really want to kill it then it just dies.

Core didnt get better scourge just got too clunky/unsafe to use so now the only source of condi / boon corrupt is core necromancer. Just because you are seeing more people try something else does not mean its in a good spot.

Scourge

- I dont even like it but we all know how its faring due to its wvw changes. Overall though without scourge right now boons are more out of control than they ever have been i would say its time for anet to cull boons down and stop depending on one class to mainly be the counter to them so that that class could have more potential in other areas.

Deathmagic

- Why would you even talk about this like its good lol.

Holosmith

- In my opinion this spec is not nearly as busted as the ones you said were perfectly balanced. Ever since the Holo slam range nerf they are not nearly as crazy and while their damage is bit too high i feel like its not the just damage or the cc its the fact that they have a invuln and blocks built into most of their builds which makes a huge difference when under pressure. They also have a stealth potion when they want to get away which can be a massive escape when used properly. Compared to mirage firebrand and condi thief i think holo can stay where it is for now.

As far as the rest of the classes go you are fairly accurate

in my personal opinion every class at its core should be as strong as core warrior, ranger, and guardian and while there are a few contenders for second place like core ele and mesmer which are good but not great (mostly just out classed by 1 or both of their elite specs) there are others like neco, rev (depending on the build), base engi. That are no where near that lvl of power in terms of offense or defense.

As far as you talk about the maps go I 100% agree with you.

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > ?I think... you just... played yourself....

> > For one your statement here is an opinion thus it can be argued against by another opinion.

> > or

> > Taking your own opinion into logic means that you also had no reason to come here to converse in the first place as no ones opinions can contradict your own meaning no one should respond, agree, or disagree to your words which would defeat the purpose to voice your thoughts and feelings in the first place. This also means that the other person can say the same ending statment you did based on their perspective and mindset of thinking which invalidates your previous post and "well grounded reasons."

> >

> > Egotism is the greatest obstruction achieving anything.

>

> See, we can talk about basics of discussions, semantics, philosophy or whatever. That doesn't help.

>

> Key point is, this thread is made by people who are not content with the actual system Arenanet is about to ship in a few weeks.

Others are curious as to why you are not content with it. To see other posters basically bashing the companies brains out rather than realistically talking about the issue from both perspectives does not help either.

In short you nor anet can please everyone this is basic fact.

1: If you make a thread thats for people who **don't like** something people who do like that "thing" will still read and write what they think

2: If you make a thread thats for people who **do like** something people who do not like that "thing" will still read and write what they think.

You are not exactly right to tell someone they dont have the right to make an opinion on this idea regardless of their stance on the topic at hand.

Its not possible silence the other half or the middle ground just because "Its for people who only do or dont have an issue with the topic" to do this defeats the purpose of a conversation. So you should expect people who are fine or semi ok to also make comments. However when people see unreasonable bashing going on you shouldnt be surprised how things drag out like this.

> The opposition has made their pleas which is totally fine but at the end we're 7 pages long including a merge and the opposition in person of 2-3 people is still there just trying to oppose instead of letting go. I mean a change of Arenanet's current approach - which is most likely not to be expected - won't hurt you at all. On the contrary, players that have almost to no use of the new system would profit from a change as well. But no, people come to this thread over and over again to defend a company against complaining paying customers.

First off you cant assume the people who defend the company dont pay also. I want to think most of the people who defend the company from the overblown bashing which is also off topic are paying customers also.

As far as a change of approach you dont know who that will hurt as of what i said above. To complain about something to get it changed will still hurt someone somewhere even if that someone is anet itself. Which is why people counter argued the idea of continued usage of arc templates after the feature releases which was well on topic. Its not because they want you to be miserable. They are just looking from both or the other perspective.

> That's irritating at best. Just stop it and support the idea because you will have advantages from that as well. You won't have any if you just show your dedication to the company.

Dedication is a flexible word and should not be used lightly. People show dedication in multiple ways. Once again you cant speak for everyone. To do that assumes that only people who complain here are the dedicated ones which is entirely no the case. This thread would need an infinity larger number of pages for that to be anywhere near the truth. Because im sure there the game has very many dedicated players ;)

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > I think keeping it on the same lines mechanically that it is right now will make it either too weak or too strong depending on how much you buff it.

> > An accurate way to do it would have it return 5% of all incoming condition damage as healing (even while under resistance). That way is scales in proportion to damaging conditions overall reducing the total damage you take from them over time.

> >

> > After all its goal is to not really heavily heal you its just to give you more hp than you would have otherwise had if you would have not taken it. ITs just a minor means of sustain.

>

> As previously said, it does not prevent conditions from doing anything. There's no way the trait can get overpowered if latter can already mitigate more than that it could ever heal in the worst case.

It could granted things like resistance which does not stop conditions from being applied which will proc the trait for healing while not taking damage from conditions and as someone else said not every condition does damage which would convert to 100% healing in those instances. In those instances no you should not be getting 200-500 points of hp back per trigger for an adept trait.

The goal of this trait is generally to give you health that is not planned to be stored ideally its like giving the player false vitality over time. Each time it procs you get more hp back that you otherwise would not be getting. Its a similar case to necormancers vampiric signet which by the way only heals about 400 points when you apply a grandmaster trait ontop of it. Considering almost all attacks in the game inflict some kind of condition you will likely trigger it at least ever second if not every other second.

Why should you get procs of 400 healing + more with healing power for an adept trait alone?

Sorry I cant agree this can get pretty busted very quick for a player who knows what they are doing.

I agree the current version of the trait is not good but your suggestions are way too strong "for simply getting hit with a condition." IF the trait was a grandmaster... perhaps required you to perform a certain action then i could agree with the healing numbers you are suggesting.

> It needs to be put in line with the rest and it's good to go, not only it will make condition damage reduction further more attractive, but it will also allow to synergize better with other legends which is the goal here.

Keep in mind that as of the moment this trait is an adept trait it cant or rather shouldn't be that powerful in general for simply getting a condi slapped on you.

Keep in mind most legends dont synergize with each other this is a core flaw of rev. Each legend is a vastly different person or being that comes with vastly different traits. They wont always smoothly synergize with one another.

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Harak.8397" said:

> > > Says who ? Who asked the Charr why they were attacking the wall back then ? All we had was the human perspective: "These monsters have been attacking us forever, they enslave or kill and eat us. We must fight back." It isn't until EotN that we learn they can actually communicate with more than grunts and growls.

> >

> > Well from my understanding (and i could be wrong) charr were in Tyria long before humans were. If a new species just pops up on your land boarders one day thats kind of a problem.

> > IF aliens try to land on earth do you think we are going to sit and have tea with them or try and figure out what they are? No the initial human response will be shoot first figure out the mess later.

> > I imagine this is what the charr were doing and what they would try do to any race they came across that was not their own.

>

> Sure Charr were just picking flowers on their ancestral land™ when the evil humans showed up. Yeah right give me a break. Charr are warmongering savages, always were, they took Ascalon and then the humans took it from them. But S O M E H O W only Charr have a claim to Ascalon because they were uhh.. they were there. For unspecified time. And that also absolves them of all their warcrimes that they commited 1k years later.

Where did the humans come from and when. Where there other races there before them?

And if you stick your finger on or next to an active ant bed do the ants bite you despite you meaning to do no harm? OF course they do they dont know what you are and thus the instinctive reaction is to savagely attack you.

> Wish people would stop with this terrible arguement.

lol no need to get so aggressive dude not everyone is a lore master. Im not even trying to make an argument i was just having discussion. I even stated that i could be wrong because someone probably knows pre gw1 details better than i do. Your tone is very unnecessary.

> Or if we're sticking with it, let's go all the way:

> * The Dominion of Winds is built atop Sanctum Cay - Tengu deserve to annihilated, it's within the right of Krytans to do so, since they were there before them.

> * Sylvari lands are on former Krytan lands too. When are we going to throw some napalm on the grove? It's Kryta's birthright afterall. Might as well chase down the sylvari living elsewhere because reasons.

If not for charr getting involved with other races before Sylvari showed up i dont doubt they likely would have treated them the same way just that to be honest with you.

I think keeping it on the same lines mechanically that it is right now will make it either too weak or too strong depending on how much you buff it.

An accurate way to do it would have it return 5% of all incoming condition damage as healing (even while under resistance). That way is scales in proportion to damaging conditions overall reducing the total damage you take from them over time.

After all its goal is to not really heavily heal you its just to give you more hp than you would have otherwise had if you would have not taken it. ITs just a minor means of sustain.

> @"Harak.8397" said:

> Says who ? Who asked the Charr why they were attacking the wall back then ? All we had was the human perspective: "These monsters have been attacking us forever, they enslave or kill and eat us. We must fight back." It isn't until EotN that we learn they can actually communicate with more than grunts and growls.

Well from my understanding (and i could be wrong) charr were in Tyria long before humans were. If a new species just pops up on your land boarders one day thats kind of a problem.

IF aliens try to land on earth do you think we are going to sit and have tea with them or try and figure out what they are? No the initial human response will be shoot first figure out the mess later.

I imagine this is what the charr were doing and what they would try do to any race they came across that was not their own.

Charr are the victims its not the standard sit around and cry about it they chose to out right do something about it. One of the legions going as far as to make the first un cultural step (even if not fully in the best ways or right direction) to assure they wouldn't lose which resulted in them branching off from the other 3 and becoming out cast. That said ive never felt like charr were some race that was victimized probably because they retaliated so well when threatened and they are quick to do it without warning "Female charr especially"

I imagine charr in the past were even more head strong than they are now (in terms of gw1 and what we can imagine before gw1)

Its kind of easy to see though how some charr such as Bangar would be stuck in the ways of the past.

The charr have always been war culture strong and very very VERY hardheaded when it comes to changing and adapting away from their culture and beliefs even if its only temporary. This stands out with blood legion more so than any other legion too. Its no surprise to me that Bangar still clings to the past and dislikes the other races. Assuming he lives through everything i doubt he will ever trust any non "blood legion born" charr.

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > That's what opinions are.

>

> Things went far beyond opinions in this and other threads. If you would just have made up your opinion you wouldn't reply any further. You are also one of the people defending everything instead of saying: "This is my opinion. Period." The fun part is, you belong to those who want to have the last word which is absurd because you made your point clear. You should be done with it and being satisfied. Still, you come back to argue with those that are not satisfied at all although you know you won't change their minds due to having valid arguments. There's literally no point for you to reply any further since you were and are not able to dispel well-grounded reasons and points people have made for their own personal situation.

>

?I think... you just... played yourself....

For one your statement here is an opinion thus it can be argued against by another opinion.

or

Taking your own opinion into logic means that you also had no reason to come here to converse in the first place as no ones opinions can contradict your own meaning no one should respond, agree, or disagree to your words which would defeat the purpose to voice your thoughts and feelings in the first place. This also means that the other person can say the same ending statment you did based on their perspective and mindset of thinking which invalidates your previous post and "well grounded reasons."

Egotism is the greatest obstruction achieving anything.

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> I think this is wrong. By buying the game you have the **right** to play it as long as you respect the rules. The rules are inscribed in TOS. Abusing the power and taking you the right to play the game without any valid reason could lead to ... not very pleasant issues. Without both parts respecting the rules from TOS I don't think you will find too many ... adventurers buying that product.

>

> In my opinion, allowing ArcDPS in game (and the other one) was the moment when ANet opened the Pandora box. Now they have the result of the action.

I didnt see this back then (and i dont use arc templates)

But i certainly see it now and agree with you.

I can promise you anet wont be allowing any more agreements to happen in the future after this. There were already one of the most strict in current mmos when it came to addons as it is. But after this cant see them allowing anything else just knowing how much flack and up roar its causing now and i wouldn't blame them.

> @"Taygus.4571" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Taygus.4571" said:

> > > > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > > > I don't get why people complain about this . You are already collecting multiple gear sets so just make alts, and you can have as many builds as you want, accessible on-demand, and ArenaNet has even made it easy in recent times with all the teleport items.

> > > >

> > > > Now you can even use three builds per alt without spending anything so the build possibilities go up exponentially..

> > >

> > > except...most people were using legendary + arc templates. Anets version, if you swap legendary between characters, your templates get deleted.

> >

> > most people should probably have been doing what more most people do (get alt ascended gear to solve that problem.)

> > An elite player can complain that a newbies dps is too low and tell them that ascended gear is ez to get yet they dont own multiple sets themselves?

> > Im also pretty sure anet did not design legendary armor with the idea that you would be rapidly flip flopping it between different toons. That probably became a thing on the player side.

> >

> > Which is probably why their current design has some issues with legendary armor which could likely be fixed in future patches with a bit of work.

>

> These people 15+ builds...at that point, you're better having ledgendary gear....

I suppose, but still 15 builds or more is getting pretty niche. Like i want to think thats a small % of people who reach that point. In which no anet should not design a system only around them. You design it for everyone and make adjustments down the line. One day we will know why anet didnt go down the route that arc did. I want to imagine that there is good reason as to why they didnt go that route and not just for money as so many people are bluntly claiming.

>

> I do agree that Anet. Probably didn't design ledgie to be regurlarly swapped between charcters..but more if/when you stopped playing a char and wanted to switch to something new.

Well it only goes so far as light armor is only good to light armor professions etc. I think anyone willing to invest in multiple weights of legendary armor could have easily had an alt ascended sets for every build (if they wanted to) To be hones if i was doing it by hand i would rather click to put my armor on than click to take it off, put it in the bank, then put it back on thats doing too much for me personally. I loathe having to move items between characters its just super annoying for me personally. I dont have 15 builds but for the ones i do have i just hold all my gear on me and swap everything in like 20 seconds. If im gonna play another class ill wait till its properly geared (which also gives me time to learn how to play it properly in that role.) I cant speak for everyone though this is just me.

Lets just hope anet solves the legendary armor issue (which i think they should)

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" just because one does not have to put themselves in a situation where not being able to move while dodging is lethal, does not mean it is not a tradeoff. WvW is an entire game mode of aoe pressure.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > > > > > > I do try to read alot to fill my vocabulary but I am still clearly lacking, THIS IS EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you.

> > > > > > > > > What other elite specs lose as a "tradeoff" is immidietly gained back from one of its traits/powers.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You could indeed argue that a benefit replaces some deficit on an elite, however i would say this is not favorable to the case you are trying to make because then i have to ask the question.

> > > > > > > > What about the specs who still don't lose anything and only gain benefits (mirage / soul beast) the the situation is still the same, its still not held to the current balance standards. Even if another class loses something only to have something else to replace it how is it fair when a spec doesn't lose anything and still gains a bonus benefit?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Mirage loses some or all of their ability to move while dodging depending on conditions. And soulbeast loses an AI that can attack separately/at range. Just because they are activated abilities like tempest overloads does not mean they lose nothing. Not everything has to be a permanent stat change. And trade offs do not have to cripple a profession, just alter its playstyle.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sorry but mirage dodging is not a trade off by anets standards it seems and to be real with you i dont even think its a valid argument argument as most classes 7 of the other 9, 8 of the other 9 if thief does not run the dare devil trait have no option to dodge at all while under say immobilize Mirage still can.

> > > > >

> > > > > If daredevil does not run that dodge it still has one extra bar of endurance and the two other dodge traits that add damage. If you want to give mirage an extra bar of endurance you are welcome to remove the dodging while immbolized.

> > > >

> > > > And they still loss range on their f1 what did you give up from your shatters on mirage? Why should you get a 3rd bar of endurance or did you also forget the fact that doding also does not interrupt your actions which is can be seen as the same as having a 3rd bar if you want to count effect for effect. Aruging down these small lines of extras is pointless because you are still down 1 when it comes to the profession skill bar. It does not matter what other aspect you look at you are still down one.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So to say you lose the ability to move while dodging when others normally cant dodge at all "depending on the conditions" is not a valid arugment nore is it a trade off thats fitting to every other profession.

> > > > >

> > > > > Other profession can dodge perfectly fine under under the effects of cripple and chill. And mirage, while able to dodge while immbolized or cced is still not moving.

> > > >

> > > > Yes everyone can dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Mirage can also dodge just fine under cripple and chill. Even if you do not move as far you still evade attacks just fine. Other professions cannot dodge while immobilized or cc'ed period while mirage can. once again you are still down by 1 no matter how many extras you look at.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A soul beast does not permanently lose that AI how ever they have the option to bring the pet back with full hp and cleansing all of its conditions. If it was a perma bond I would totally agree with you. But thats not how it works. Its more gain than loss as the soul beast is not forced to bond and all the functions from base ranger are still there + the bond benefit when needed.

> > > > >

> > > > > Whenever the soulbeast melds they are no longer in control of their pet and can't swap those skills. They could already heal and cleanse their pet using pet swap. I don't see the problem.

> > > >

> > > > Pet swap generally takes much longer and should the pet die before swapping the cd to swap pets is considerably increased. vs a soul beast fuse which suffers no cd penality should the counter play be to kill the pet "not that its already hard to do" In short there is a punishment if the pet should die before you swap it. There is not one for reviving it by fusing.

> > > >

> > > > the only thing ill give you in regards to soul beast is that its true once fused they no longer have a Pet AI which can be seen as some what of trade off. As i said many times before i personally think thats not enough weight of a trade off but you are free to your own opinon (this is the end of this conversation regarding soul beast )

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Similarly is whenever the tempest overloads their attunement has an increased cooldown. They aren't like weaver unravel where going back to core is temporary since the base skills are perma changed.

> > > > >

> > > > > You don't have to be forced to use a tradeoff.

> > > >

> > > > Yes its called using the core profession. You dont take an elite to not use the trade off and benefits if you dont want the benefit and the trade off then you take the core aspect of the class. This is common sense. No person who plays with any kind of mind set takes tempest and does not use the overloads or takes scourge and does not use the shade skills. There was 0 point to you making this statement.

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I mean I don't agree with you either on return IP or burn it all down. But I think what was lost in this discussion is that elite specs are designed to alter playstyle not be asymmetrical.

> > > > > > > > > Losing and then gaining pet skills, evasion, survivability are as much tradeoffs as losing something and then gaining something in another category. What matters is operating different.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > In the context of Chrono. Losing mobile invulnerability to gain improved pseudo-invulnerability that returns you to the spot is very similar to mirage losing a mobile dodge to gain an improved stagnant dodge. The issue seems to be with whether these are substantially different from each other/core in execution.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It would seem favouring clones vs favouring phantasms vs favouring both is not enough of a difference.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Sadly this is not anets standard and to ignore the facts of having something that changes or effects the "f skills" when you take an elite is without question no the standard.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > By anets standard which has been forced on nearly every other elite spec its only fair to say that those who are currently not up to this standard can be held accountable and should be easily subject to the change to that standard what ever the decided to do. ITs why so many people are speculating mirage changes to the shatters sooner or later. Because its not in line with the standard of nearly every other elite spec.'

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nearly every other spec? Scrapper, Holosmith, Tempest, Daredevil, Mirage, Druid, and Soulbeast have little or no change to their f-skills. Instead they have stat nerfs or activated drawbacks depending on how constant the benefit is.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Look above ^ i listed them all out a few post ago

> > > > > > Everyone has something that changes the their F skill bar or the majority. and in almost all these cases you "lose something" from the base in exchange for what the new elite gains.

> > > > > > Scrapper and holo lose their options to have a selectable elite tool belt skill

> > > > >

> > > > > That is one skill out of five. Guardian and others keep none.

> > > > I think ive covered that i think this is too light of a trade off (that should have been the end of this particular subject)

> > > >

> > > > > > Daredevil loses steal for swipe

> > > > > No. Deadeye loses steal for mark. Swipe is still an instant ranged shadowstep, that is now unblockable, and they have an entire extra bar of endurance.

> > > >

> > > > ??? With less range, on a class that has roughly 11k hp, that does not have boons to block attacks, or stability.

> > > > > > Mirage (loses litterally nothing)

> > > > >

> > > > > Go play wvw.

> > > > ???

> > > > Thats far enough this getting is too off topic and slightly more frustrating than im willing to deal.

> > > > Ive read the rest of your responses and it seems that you just dont understand anets concept of "trade offs"

> > > > The idea is that something on the profession bar is lost or changes a a trade with elite specs. The amount of change varies from profession to profession based on the theme of that profession. In some cases (scourge) everything changes where in other cases (scrapper) not that much changes. How ever for every profession there is some sort of change. In the event of core mesmer to mirage looking at the shatters as of today 10/17/2019 there is 0 difference between the f1, f2, f3, and f4. Before or after they are used. They are the same. There is no trade off regardless of how big or small you look. There is not even a stat change, This means it is not in line with the standards of trade offs.

> > > >

> > > > You are going way over the top getting way to passive aggressive, picking minor points that are not even part of the original subject blaming every other profession which have perfect examples of trade offs and in some cases hardly viable classes while ignoring the facts bluntly.

> > > >

> > > > In short for every +1 Mirage has (not even looking at the profession f skill bar yet) every other elite also has a + 1 for every -1 Mirage has every other elite also has a -1 in some way is not alone and its starting to feel like you are pretending it is. Once you look at the profession (f skill bar) bar only then do you see that there are 0% changes between core and mirage. I dont know how else to explain this to you. Every other profession has a change regardless of how big or small it is or how well weighted it is there is "a change." That is where anet places the "self inflicted trade off and in some cases extra benefits along with them."

> > > >

> > > > Talking about tempest and scrappers not having to use their f skills thus not having a negative like its the common norm that people do in a realistic combat situations is ignorance. Yet i bet if anyone said the same about chrono or mirage you would call them out on it without mercy on how wrong they are and how essential it is for them to do such. Its baffling.

> > > >

> > > > I wont converse with you any further, its off topic, its frustrating, and you are not speaking with logic and possibly with a great lack of knowledge for the other professions and their elites and how people commonly play them.

> > > >

> > > > TLDR: Im done. Should you chose to reply off topic of chrono trade offs wont respond :)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > if you dont feel like having discusion then dont start it? you are the one that brought " nerf mirage OP " into "chrono is garbage fix it " conversation.

> > Never said the word nerf or OP in my original post dont come here telling lies. you cant speak truthfully o respectfully dont speak to me at all.

> >

>

> But you did say mirage should have its f skills changed. And do you truly believe shatter changes to mirage will not be a nerf in any capacity? So is it really a lie?

Yes because i never stressed those words. I do think the shatter skills should be changed.

It would make sense for mirage to have its own unique shatter skills that are different from base mesmer would it not? This does not mean "nerf OP mirage." If you took it that way then it's saying something about how strong you think the spec is self consciously.

>

> If people kept on topic to chrono having terrible quality of life and they need a better tradeoff that is still trade off but doesn't make people miserable that would be great.

Well i already said the first thing they should do is restore the power to shatter the f1-f3 without clones. That would be a massive step back in the right direction imo.

There is only 1 reason why i dont think the f4 shatter should be usable without clones and thats due to how strong it is.

or

Allow it to be used but reduce its cd for each clone that you shatter with the split shatter skill (not including yourself) For each clone shattered toward it its cd is reduced. This makes it more rewarding to use with clones vs without.

To be honest this could probably be the case for all chrono shatters but then you have to start looking at cooldown adjustments overall.

But when i think trade off i think the f skill bar and nothing more. Everything outside of that is pretty much the same case for "almost" every other class.