Captain Kuro.8937
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well i not sure about that .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even on Vallun video a while back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It behaves like Cloack And Dagger
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mug its on Deadly spec .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And we are talking about meta builds
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes *damaging* conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do _**NOT**_ stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both *worse*. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :
> > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Thief
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is *much* worse. End of story.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is *never*. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why _**EVERY**_ good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They do. Thats why they _**DONT**_ stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch [this](
) most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is *once*. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.> > > > > >
> > > > > > I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .
> > > > >
> > > > > Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.
> > > > >
> > > > > > And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No, he uses them against *all* opponents. He does not do what you describe _**EVER**_. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and *maybe* if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also
> > > > >
> > > > > Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.
> > > >
> > > > Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought
> > > >
> > >
> > > And they too didnt use it, other than *exactly* with shadow Refuge and dropping it *exactly* instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.
> > >
> > > > I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .
> > > > In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other
> > >
> > > The point is that *even* Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its _**ONLY**_ in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.
> >
> > There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .
>
> They use *out of combat* stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.
>
> > At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine
> >
>
> Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.
>
> > I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst
>
> It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.
Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If someone was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .
Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works
Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?
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> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well i not sure about that .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even on Vallun video a while back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It behaves like Cloack And Dagger
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mug its on Deadly spec .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And we are talking about meta builds
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes *damaging* conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do _**NOT**_ stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both *worse*. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :
> > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Thief
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is *much* worse. End of story.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is *never*. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why _**EVERY**_ good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .
> > > > >
> > > > > I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > > > If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .
> > > > >
> > > > > Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).
> > > > >
> > > > > > They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips
> > > > >
> > > > > They do. Thats why they _**DONT**_ stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch [this](
) most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is *once*. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.> > > >
> > > > I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .
> > >
> > > Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.
> > >
> > > > And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions
> > > >
> > >
> > > No, he uses them against *all* opponents. He does not do what you describe _**EVER**_. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and *maybe* if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.
> > >
> > > > I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also
> > >
> > > Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.
> >
> > Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought
> >
>
> And they too didnt use it, other than *exactly* with shadow Refuge and dropping it *exactly* instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.
>
> > I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .
> > In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other
>
> The point is that *even* Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its _**ONLY**_ in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.
There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers and then rotate to mid .
At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >> hit >> try to stealth up near him >> the damage reduction traits will be working fine
I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst vs any , non Bunker
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well i not sure about that .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even on Vallun video a while back
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It behaves like Cloack And Dagger
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Mug its on Deadly spec .
> > > > > > > > > > > > And we are talking about meta builds
> > > > > > > > > > > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes *damaging* conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do _**NOT**_ stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both *worse*. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :
> > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Thief
> > > > >
> > > > > I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is *much* worse. End of story.
> > > > >
> > > > > > But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is *never*. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .
> > > > >
> > > > > Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.
> > > > >
> > > > > > While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)
> > > > >
> > > > > You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why _**EVERY**_ good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.
> > > >
> > > > No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .
> > >
> > > I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.
> > >
> > > > If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .
> > >
> > > Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).
> > >
> > > > They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips
> > >
> > > They do. Thats why they _**DONT**_ stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch [this](
) most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is *once*. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.> >
> > I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .
>
> Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.
>
> > And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions
> >
>
> No, he uses them against *all* opponents. He does not do what you describe _**EVER**_. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and *maybe* if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.
>
> > I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also
>
> Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.
Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought
So people actually use stealth , in higher lvl , while in lower tier its easily punnisable
I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .
In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well i not sure about that .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .
> > > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .
> > > > > > > > > > > > Even on Vallun video a while back
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It behaves like Cloack And Dagger
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mug its on Deadly spec .
> > > > > > > > > > And we are talking about meta builds
> > > > > > > > > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes *damaging* conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do _**NOT**_ stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.
> > > > >
> > > > > > If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both *worse*. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.
> > > >
> > > > Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :
> > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Thief
> > >
> > > I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is *much* worse. End of story.
> > >
> > > > But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more
> > > >
> > >
> > > He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is *never*. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.
> > >
> > > > Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .
> > >
> > > Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.
> > >
> > > > While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)
> > >
> > > You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why _**EVERY**_ good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.
> >
> > No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .
>
> I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.
>
> > If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .
>
> Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).
>
> > They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips
>
> They do. Thats why they _**DONT**_ stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch [this](
) most recent games on sinds youtube channel. Pop Quiz: During the entire 15 minute match, how many times does he stealth mid combat? The answer is *once*. Against a prot holo that cant punish him. Didnt clear any condis doing it though. And still he runs shadows embrace. Why? Because its much better than hidden thief, even if you just use concealing restoration like the good thieves do. Why? Well I already explained.I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .
And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions
You look like anew player like myself , its ok if you make some mistakes too:)
I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well i not sure about that .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleance
> > > > > > > > > > > > I beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .
> > > > > > > > > > I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .
> > > > > > > > > > Even on Vallun video a while back
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It behaves like Cloack And Dagger
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mug its on Deadly spec .
> > > > > > > > And we are talking about meta builds
> > > > > > > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes *damaging* conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec
> > > > >
> > > > > Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second
> > > > >
> > > > > They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do _**NOT**_ stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .
> > > >
> > >
> > > And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.
> > >
> > > > If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both *worse*. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.
> >
> > Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :
> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Thief
>
> I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is *much* worse. End of story.
>
> > But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more
> >
>
> He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is *never*. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.
>
> > Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .
>
> Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.
>
> > While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)
>
> You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why _**EVERY**_ good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.
No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .
If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .
They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips
Edit:I hope i will see a grenade barrage enginner in the July tournament .
-
double post
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Well i not sure about that .
> > > > > > > > > > > > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > > > > > > > > > > > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleance
> > > > > > > > > > I beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .
> > > > > > > > I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .
> > > > > > > > Even on Vallun video a while back
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It behaves like Cloack And Dagger
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Mug its on Deadly spec .
> > > > > > And we are talking about meta builds
> > > > > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > > > You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .
> > > > >
> > > > > Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes *damaging* conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more
> > > > >
> > > > > Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.
> > > >
> > > > Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec
> > >
> > > Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.
> > >
> > > > Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second
> > >
> > > They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do _**NOT**_ stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.
> >
> >
> > Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .
> >
>
> And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.
>
> > If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?
> >
>
> Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both *worse*. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.
Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Thief
But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more
Channeling Vigor is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .
While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Well i not sure about that .
> > > > > > > > > > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > > > > > > > > > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleance
> > > > > > > > I beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .
> > > > > > I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .
> > > > > > Even on Vallun video a while back
> > > > >
> > > > > Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It behaves like Cloack And Dagger
> > > >
> > >
> > > If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.
> > >
> > > > Mug its on Deadly spec .
> > > > And we are talking about meta builds
> > > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol
> > > >
> > >
> > > There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.
> > >
> > > > You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .
> > >
> > > Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes *damaging* conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.
> > >
> > > > I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more
> > >
> > > Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.
> >
> > Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec
>
> Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.
>
> > Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second
>
> They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do _**NOT**_ stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.
Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .
If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait that removes condtions + stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the thieves + streamers have a different tactics and use stealth more , than us ?
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Well i not sure about that .
> > > > > > > > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > > > > > > > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleance
> > > > > > I beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources
> > > > >
> > > > > They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.
> > > >
> > > > If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .
> > > > I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .
> > > > Even on Vallun video a while back
> > >
> > > Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.
> >
> >
> > It behaves like Cloack And Dagger
> >
>
> If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.
>
> > Mug its on Deadly spec .
> > And we are talking about meta builds
> > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol
> >
>
> There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.
>
> > You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .
>
> Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes *damaging* conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.
>
> > I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more
>
> Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.
If yOu use CND + Steal , you deal damage and then stealth
If you use hidden Thief , you dont need to do CND
Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec
Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well i not sure about that .
> > > > > > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > > > > > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
> > > > >
> > > > > It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.
> > > >
> > > > The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleance
> > > > I beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources
> > >
> > > They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.
> >
> > If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .
> > I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .
> > Even on Vallun video a while back
>
> Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.
It behaves like Cloack And Dagger
Mug its on Deadly spec .
And we are talking about meta builds
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol
You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .
I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more
-
> @"darren.1064" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > > > >
> > > > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> > > >
> > > > Well i not sure about that .
> > > > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > > > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
> > >
> > > It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.
> >
> > The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleance
> > I beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources
>
> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mug
>
> Sir. Running Hidden Thief is redundant. I've already explained this to you. Doing any damage reveals you from stealth. EVERY thief runs Mug. I promise you you aren't making any sense.
No sorry , even with mug it doessn't remove the stealth from the trait .
It behaves like CND , deal damage then stealths
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > > > >
> > > > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> > > >
> > > > Well i not sure about that .
> > > > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > > > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
> > >
> > > It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.
> >
> > The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleance
> > I beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources
>
> They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.
If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .
I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .
Even on Vallun video a while back
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > >
> > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > >
> > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > >
> > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> >
> > Well i not sure about that .
> > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
>
> It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.
The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleance
I beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources
-
> @"darren.1064" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > >
> > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > >
> > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > >
> > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> >
> > Well i not sure about that .
> > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder)
>
> Stealth on Steal is redundant actually because Steal does damage itself. Most of the time when thieves use steal, they're already stealthed. So if they used Hidden Thief to receive said stealth on steal, they would just end up revealing themselves. It's pretty obvious you guys don't play thief.
No sorry , it doesn't reveal
Its like if you do Black Powder + Heartseeker on the enemy , you stealth from the combo and you wont get reveleaed by the attacking spell
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > >
> > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> >
> > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
>
> Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
Well i not sure about that .
In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
-
https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol
Has some passive defences , if anyone new thief wants to try it :
And you can combine them wit an extra Dodge + Black Powder
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unhindered_Combatant
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .
> > > > > > > > > > > > My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Its not entirely irrelevant .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It is *entirely* irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .
> > > > > > > > CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .
> > > > > > > > So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .
> > > > > > > > I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .
> > > > > > That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .
> > > > > > Just like 2 French teams -un baquet de fromaz
> > > > >
> > > > > Its irrelevant. It shows *nothing* of value in any way shape or form. It shows a build that doesnt exist anymore, using traits that work completely different now, relying on conditions that work completely different now, against enemies that are completely different. It wasnt a "hidden old spec". The new P/D, the one that is completely different, people were aware of it. But it has been generally dismissed due to the abundance of condi cleanses. It seems people in this tournament were unprepared.
> > > >
> > > > The tactic of go near and CND for stealth and then unload the channeling auto attack , or use the 3rd attack to run away from meeles , haven't changed much since that video .
> > >
> > > Except for the tiny detail, where that isnt the strategy. You dont really use CnD anymore. You use skill 3 then unload. Things have changed a lot.
> > >
> > > > Guardians+ Eles (or any1 else) , shouldn't had been unprepared after they die for the 3rd time .
> > > > They are pros , they know how to adapt
> > >
> > > You cant swap builds mid-game. Thats how they were unprepared.
> >
> > You can change class (or duplicate of the same class , with slight deviation or a newly character with its ultimate ready to be used (Time Wrap)) ... ehem ...i mean you get dc .... ofc ...
> > (why streamers get dc from the game also , when a player change class ?)
>
> Only before the game starts. If you have no idea their thief is a condi thief, that isnt an option.
a) Theres is a thing called stream snipe . Where theres a guy that shoutout/streams each person/team and the class they play . So the majority knows what is going on in the final 6 rounds
b) They are pros , they surely have anticipated the Heavy Condition meta ? Or there isn't at high lvl ? Or mobility+Condition is the issue ?
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .
> > > > > > > > > > > > While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .
> > > > > > > > > > My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Its not entirely irrelevant .
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is *entirely* irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .
> > > > > > CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.
> > > > >
> > > > > > If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .
> > > > > > So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .
> > > > > > I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing
> > > > >
> > > > > Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.
> > > >
> > > > But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .
> > > > That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .
> > > > Just like 2 French teams -un baquet de fromaz
> > >
> > > Its irrelevant. It shows *nothing* of value in any way shape or form. It shows a build that doesnt exist anymore, using traits that work completely different now, relying on conditions that work completely different now, against enemies that are completely different. It wasnt a "hidden old spec". The new P/D, the one that is completely different, people were aware of it. But it has been generally dismissed due to the abundance of condi cleanses. It seems people in this tournament were unprepared.
> >
> > The tactic of go near and CND for stealth and then unload the channeling auto attack , or use the 3rd attack to run away from meeles , haven't changed much since that video .
>
> Except for the tiny detail, where that isnt the strategy. You dont really use CnD anymore. You use skill 3 then unload. Things have changed a lot.
>
> > Guardians+ Eles (or any1 else) , shouldn't had been unprepared after they die for the 3rd time .
> > They are pros , they know how to adapt
>
> You cant swap builds mid-game. Thats how they were unprepared.
You can change class (or duplicate of the same class , with slight deviation or a newly character with its ultimate ready to be used (Time Wrap)) ... ehem ...i mean you get dc .... ofc ...
(why streamers get dc from the game also , when a player change class ?)
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .
> > > > > > > > > > While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .
> > > > > > > > My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Its not entirely irrelevant .
> > > > >
> > > > > It is *entirely* irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.
> > > > >
> > > > > > The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then
> > > > >
> > > > > Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.
> > > >
> > > > But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .
> > > > CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .
> > > >
> > >
> > > Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.
> > >
> > > > If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .
> > > > So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .
> > > > I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing
> > >
> > > Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.
> >
> > But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .
> > That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .
> > Just like 2 French teams -un baquet de fromaz
>
> Its irrelevant. It shows *nothing* of value in any way shape or form. It shows a build that doesnt exist anymore, using traits that work completely different now, relying on conditions that work completely different now, against enemies that are completely different. It wasnt a "hidden old spec". The new P/D, the one that is completely different, people were aware of it. But it has been generally dismissed due to the abundance of condi cleanses. It seems people in this tournament were unprepared.
The tactic of go near and CND for stealth and then unload the channeling auto attack , or use the 3rd attack to run away from meeles , haven't changed much since that video .
Guardians+ Eles (or any1 else) , shouldn't had been unprepared after they die for the 3rd time .
They are pros , they know how to adapt to an old spec
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > > > you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .
> > > > > > > > While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .
> > > > > > My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)
> > > > >
> > > > > A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.
> > > >
> > > > Its not entirely irrelevant .
> > >
> > > It is *entirely* irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.
> > >
> > > > The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then
> > >
> > > Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.
> >
> > But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .
> > CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .
> >
>
> Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.
>
> > If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .
> > So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .
> > I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing
>
> Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.
But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .
That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .
Just like 2 French teams -un baquet de fromaz
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > > > you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .
> > > > > > While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec
> > > > >
> > > > > Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.
> > > >
> > > > The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win
> > > >
> > >
> > > The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.
> > >
> > > > I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .
> > > > My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)
> > >
> > > A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.
> >
> > Its not entirely irrelevant .
>
> It is *entirely* irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.
>
> > The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then
>
> Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.
But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .
CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .
If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .
So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .
I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > > > you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true
> > > > >
> > > > > He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.
> > > >
> > > > In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .
> > > > While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec
> > >
> > > Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.
> >
> > The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win
> >
>
> The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.
>
> > I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .
> > My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)
>
> A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.
Its not entirely irrelevant .
The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > > > you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true
> > >
> > > He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.
> >
> > In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .
> > While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec
>
> Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.
The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win
I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .
My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)
-
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:
> > you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true
>
> He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.
In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .
While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec
The Death of Thief
in Player vs. Player
Posted
> @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"darren.1064" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Seriously. Why do people fixate on stealth? Outside of *exactly* bursting through out of combat stealth, stealth is bad. Really bad. There is a reason thief for most of GW2s lifespan didnt use stealth in-combat, and most builds just dropped stealth entirely.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well i not sure about that .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the metabattle people are using the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow%27s_Embrace , for the extra survibility that trait offer .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If stealth was so useless , they should have taken Hidden Thief (stealth on Steal , so you dont have to waste 9 resources casting Black Powder + Heartseeker + 20% reduction cd on Shadowstep+Blinding Powder and generaly any Deception spells)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives your healing skill an extra condi cleanse. Thats why its being run. Well, that and the fact that hidden thief is pretty redundant. You engage out of stealth anyway, and mid-combat youre not gonna get much use out of stealth.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The majority are taking Channeled Vigor , so they dont benefit from the extra condtion cleance
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I beleive its is that people are using stealth (heartseeker +Powder) and that trait , otherwise they should had taken Hiden Thief , that does way more things to the mobility + cost resources
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They do. Concealing Restoration. Whenever you use a healing skill, you gain stealth. So your healing skill gets a condi cleanse (Shadows Embrace triggers once instantly). People are not going for stealth mid-combat (that would be suicidal). Hidden Thief does close to nothing, so a single condi cleanse is better.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If they are going to use only for the 20 sec heal , it will remove only 1 condition . Its better to take Stealth on Steal + 20% reduction of Deception .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure about stealth being suicidal . I saw Thieves even the from the 55 rank to use stealth and avoid the enemies .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even on Vallun video a while back
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its not. The stealth on steal conflicts with mug (if youre already stealthed up and use steal, you get revealed) and is generally not useful at all. The cooldown reduction on Deceptions is alright, but not impactful enough. Being able to remove a burn in a clutch situation is just better.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It behaves like Cloack And Dagger
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you cloak and Dagger when youre already stealthed you also get revealed.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mug its on Deadly spec .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And we are talking about meta builds
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is just redundant. Why would you want stealth on steal? You steal backstab when engaging. Youre not gonna steal for stealth mid-combat, and out of combat you have stealth anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot remove a clutch Burn , because they are overbearing conditions. So 1x condtion removal is worthless .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hardly. Shadows Embrace is nice in that it only removes *damaging* conditions. So if they have burn cripple and so on, you remove the burn. Even 1 condi cleanse is quite valuable, especially on a class that generally lacks them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that Thief actually use stealth to benefit from it much more
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. If you try to stealth mid-combat, you just get hit for a ton more damage than you would remove from the 1 condi cleanse. Youre also not gonna be able to just stay in stealth and wait for another tick, you die before that. Its legitimately just for the healing skill.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rather than wasting 9 resources on Heartseeker + Powder and then steal , you can instead simply Steal without a cost and gain stealth , also reduce the Shadowsteap from 50>40 sec and Blinding Powder 40>32 sec
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Youre going to "waste" those 9 resources anyway, because you want to stack up Leeching Venoms, and you want to engage on them without them ever knowing you were there. Oh and since you use steal on the opening burst, that also means you wont be able to use it later. Reducing the CD of Shadowstep is nice, but not significant enough. You dont use Blinding Powder right now anyway.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Burns can be re-applied , so remove one is kinda worthless . If Thieves stealth more (which i believe they do) they benefit from it much more . The stealth from the healing spell lasts 2 sec (1s from PvP + Melds) , you will only benefit from 1 condtion removal from the start and not a second
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They can be, but its still great. They stack the burst on you, and you negate it. And then you run away, so they cant just keep reapplying it. Thats why its great. Thieves do _**NOT**_ stealth more. Because its actively suicidal and just about the only way a thief can get himself killed. It also doesnt benefit more at all. Youre not gonna survive waiting 3 seconds for the second condi removal. And yes, you only get the 1 condi removal at the start. Thats how the trait works.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah you are going to waste 9 resources and stealth for 3 sec , or waste those 9 resources and use Hidden Thief for 6 sec stealth . Reggardles of what stealth method you choose the Leeching Venoms poison will still come up .
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > And in that case, you burn the steal before you can use it to engage. A complete waste. Both of a trait, and of steal. A terrible idea.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you use the 20 sec heal that the trait does offer stealth in combat , is a defensive option that most thieves do . Its not suicidal , its called ''tactical get the hell away'' . And still Shadow Embrace is kinda worthless for a 2 sec stealth only . Maybe the majority of the stealth + streamers have a different tactics and use itmore than us ?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Stealth in combat is not a defensive option. Its suicidal. Here is what happens. You plop down a smoke field, try to heartseeker and whoops, your opponent decided to abuse the fact that youre stuck in 1.25 seconds worth of animation, threw some damage youre way, and youre suddenly downed. Why, that doesnt seem useful at all. Thats why you dont do it. Its why top tier streamers dont use it. And no, shadows embrace is still good for Concealing Restoration. Youre right, its not terribly much, but the alternatives are both *worse*. Merciful Ambush doesnt come into play often enough, and Hidden Thief is just not useful.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Rather than having 1 condition removal every 20 sec (on heal>stealth) . Its better to have :
> > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Thief
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I dont know why you think repeating the same wrong thing maakes it true. No, Hidden Thief is *much* worse. End of story.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > But in the other hand if poeple use stealth a lot more , like Vallun it makes sense that they benefit from it more
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > He doesnt. Look at Vallun. Look at Sindrener. See how often they use in-combat stealth. Unless its to finish off a target (usually when theyre 3 or 4v1) the answer is *never*. And in that situation, shadows embrace isnt doing anything.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Concealing Restoration is more suicidal , because you must wait before the channel ends and then you stealth .
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Completely, utterly 100% wrong. When you use channeled vigor, you regain health. You still might take damage, but youre not even locked in an animation, you can move. Its 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times less suicidal.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > While doing Black Powder offer some Blind and the Heartseeker some mobility (just like Dash)
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > You dont get the blind unless you target an enemy then drop targetting, which is clunky. And the mobility doesnt help you because your opponent knows exactly where you will move. Neither of those will save you from the grenade barrage Im aiming at you that will down you instantly. Which is why _**EVERY**_ good thief avoids in-combat stealth. Please, for future reference, dont talk about thief if you dont know thief.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No i am sorry , but you are kinda wrong here .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am absolutely correct. You are the one who is wrong.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If the majority of the streamers + metabattle have that traits ,it mean that they stealth more and benefit from that trait . Otherwise they would take that Hidden Thief .
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Wrong. Hidden Thief is worse. Even if you just use concealing restoration (Which yes, is what they do), it is so much worse. But if you dont believe me, just go ahead and watch Sindrener. He is using Shadows Embrace. See how often he goes for in-combat stealth (Or let me spoil you: Almost never).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > They know more than you and me .You could look at the Vallun Video , where he stealth and use Dash to get away from danger . If you some problems with stealthing up , we can meet inside and give you some tips
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > They do. Thats why they _**DONT**_ stealth mid-combat. They know its suicidal and the worst thing a thief can do by far. Watch [this](
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I saw multiply thieves from the tournament and Vallun use stealth .
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Out of combat stealth. Yes. In-combat stealth? No. Well, other than maybe the condi thieves using Shadow Refuge to immediately leave stealth and just proc shadow bolts on the stealth attack. That appears to be how it was used.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And Sind uses the Embrace trait vs heavy condition opponents , while the enemy waste aoes , he hides and uses the trait to cleanse conditions
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No, he uses them against *all* opponents. He does not do what you describe _**EVER**_. Because that doesnt work. You do not stealth mid-combat (unless its to finish off an outnumbered enemy, maybe, and *maybe* if youre facing a low-damage bunker and wanna prepare to switch targets to someone a bit further way. But even in that case, it makes more sense to get out first, then stealth). If you stealth mid-combat, you die unless your opponent is playing a low-damage bunker. And even then you sometimes die. Thats why you dont use it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am hopping to see a Grenade Barrage Enginner on the Tournaments on July . Maybe we can see that spec to be used vs stealth Mesmer also
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Why? Grenade Engineer isnt particularly good. Its just an example because I play it. Any class can punish thief for trying to stealth mid-combat. Thats why every single good thief doesnt use mid-combat stealth. And yet they use Shadows Embrace, because its still much better. It is that simple. Accept the fact, or be quiet.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ehm ...other specs too exept the 2x French . The majority of the enemies are Bunkers and while you having the damage reduction from the Daredevil traits , they cannot huke you high enought
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And they too didnt use it, other than *exactly* with shadow Refuge and dropping it *exactly* instantly just to get the stealth attack with the shadow projectile finishers. The damage reduction traits wont be active when you try to stealth up (you move out of range and the enemy wont be weak). Right now even bunkers can do a lot of damage, and far from everyone is playing bunkers. You will get nuked.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I thought for a sec that Grenade Engineer , was death incarnate with all these '''if you stealth , you will get nuked by it'' .
> > > > > > In lower levels everything works and everything punish each other
> > > > >
> > > > > The point is that *even* Grenade Engineer can nuke you when you try to stealth. Any build can. Its funny that you bring up lower levels, because its _**ONLY**_ in lower levels that thieves use stealth mid-combat. Because they arent good, and their opponents arent good. In high level, you will almost never see a thief use stealth mid-combat. If they want to run, they shortbow 5. If they want to fight, they use shadow shot, heartseekr or swap to shortbow. But never, ever, under any circumstances, do they go for stealth. And still Shadows Embrace is run. Because its better.
> > > >
> > > > There where other teams that they used D/P and use it to stealth . For example there was a team with 2 Thieves that made it to the top 8 and lost from the 1 French , that their job was to go far and take turns attacking/stealthing up to win matches vs Mesmers + other other Bunkers .
> > >
> > > They use *out of combat* stealth. Yes, that is true. However, there Shadows Embrace doesnt matter. Youre out of combat. You didnt have any conditions. They did not use in-combat stealth at all.
> > >
> > > > At the final 6 , Cheese vs 55rank i believe you could see some stealth ingame action too . If you are near the target >hit> try to stealth up the damage reduction traits will be working fine
> > > >
> > >
> > > Out of combat stealth, yes. In combat stealth, no. And no, they wont, your heartseeker will move you too far away. Sorry.
> > >
> > > > I hope we can see the Grenade Enginner in the tournament , its sound preety fun for 1-shot aoes burst
> > >
> > > It doesnt oneshot anything but the squishy thieves that already took damage from sticking in a fight. Again, you fixate on the wrong things. But let me just reiterate once more. Good thieves do not use in-combat stealth. If they are activaly fighting an enemy, under (almost) no circumstances will they ever stealth, because its suicidal. They will ONLY stealth out of combat. As a result, Shadows Embrace is ONLY used for concealing restoration, a single condi clear on your healing skill. And its still used over hidden thief, because its much better than hidden thief, even then.
> >
> > Those 2 D/P thiefs took turns . If some1 was low on hp he would stealth up in combta , heal and then come back . The same tactic they used in mid in teamfights .
>
> Im gonna assume that he did not stealth up in combat, but out of combat. A quick look over the game I assume youre describing confirms that assumption. They used out of combat stealth, not in-combat stealth.
>
> > Heartseeker is not effected by out of combat stealth or in combat stealth .It travels the same distance , just like Dash . Its ok if you have some questions about how things works
> >
>
> I know, youre missing the point. The point is that when you use in-combat stealth, youre locked into your animation. Your heartseeker will take you a set distance away in a set direction. The enemy will punish and down you. Hence why good thieves do not ever use in-combat stealth. Did you finally understand that? Yes? Good. Lets leave the fact that thief doesnt use in-combat stealth as that, as well as the fact that shadows embrace is used only for concealing restoration and is still better than hidden thief.
>
> > Could you post some pic with the burst of Barrage ? So i wont underestimate it on my que ?
>
> Too much effort, cant be bothered.
I am sure 100% that that team with the those 2x Thieves that made it to the final 8 , they used Heartseeker+ Powder for stealth , when they where 50% hp . While the other maintain the pressure . Or like other thieves from other teams .
Not all classes punish you while you do the stealth combo , and the 90% of the majority are Bunkers . In lower tiers where everyone is wearing Berseker amulets , they might punish the thief for trying to stealth up . But the current meta is Bunker-Condition
Hence they stealth up and use the Shadow Embrace trait and cannot punish you entirely while stealth